Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 02-06-07, 04:48 PM	This came out of the Favorite character class to play and why thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=784280) I figure I'd move the discussion here. :) I'm having difficulty keeping my level 1 (now 2) bard from faceplanting and ditto for my level 5 wizard. No tactics overcome poor dice rolls (or good ones on the DM's part) Heavy combat-focused builds mean you get more (not less) often ambushed or attacked because you are not as strong in non-combat skills. Considering the fact that you said pretty much the same thing about your wizard, I'm inclined to think it has more to do with your play style than any weakness of the bard. Bards at 1st level are really no weaker than rogues are. They have the same armor and HPs as rogues and can use shields (unlike rogues). As for doing damage, rogues get sneak attack but 90% of combat at 1st level will be in a situation where sneak is not possible for a rogue, whereas 100% of combats 1/day will be one where Bards can use their inspire courage. I do not have a rogue in LG. My bard usually uses a reach weapon and flank if he has to melee. Otherwise he spends far more time in support and buffing than in direct melee. Last time he ran into combat to give the healer time and cover to heal the main tank he took one single hit and dropped to -8. Typically in combat he takes one or two hits and drops. I haven't come up with a level 1 bard build that can avoid being one-shotted by crits. I also have used trips and disarms from 15' with my whip. Mostly unsuccessfully, even if it looks cool. During opposed checks the NPC usually beats my result by 5 or more as I typically roll rather poorly. (Enough to make a touch AC, but not enough for the follow-up). I have used Grease and if they aren't undead an occasional Sleep, but the mobs almost always make their saves. At 3rd level, with Insp... ...AC of 29 and uses power attack and arcane strike to do significant damage on his own. At 9th level, he did 114 points of damage... So bards aren't weak. It's just that some players... I don't see how this part is relevant. Let's compare apples to apples. What were your tactics at levels 1-2?
jstorrie 02-06-07, 05:10 PM	At level 1? Combat 1: inspire, shoot shoot shoot Combat 2: shoot shoot shoot Combat 3: shoot shoot shoot etc. Tanglefoot bags go a long way. At level 2? Combat 1: grease, shoot shoot shoot Combat 2: inspire, shoot shoot shoot Combat 3: inspire, shoot shoot shoot etc. If you're running a 16-Cha bard, your grease DC is 14. Things will fail this. You're right that melee combat is a pain - so if you don't have the feats for it, don't bother. Just use a bow and hang back. At levels 1-2, unlucky crits can even drop the 16-Con raging barbarian pretty easily - he only needs to take, what, 27? That's not unseen at APL2.
LGMoses 02-06-07, 06:50 PM	man seacats are nasty! Atleast they don't have pounce!!!! Sea cats at APL 2 can be a deathtrap:hides:
CdrcJsn 02-06-07, 09:30 PM	I don't see how this part is relevant. Let's compare apples to apples. What were your tactics at levels 1-2? Basically he was a light infantry from the start with 14 Strength and AC 18 (chain shirt, large shield, +2 dex). With Inspire Courage, he was attacking at +3 to hit and d8+3 damage with a longsword, quite comparable to any number of light infantry builds (scouts, finesse fighters, rangers, etc). He had power attack at 1st level, so he can convert any bonuses to extra damage (from flanking, tripped, masterwork weapon, etc.) At 3rd level, Inspire Courage jumps up to +2/+2 and he can afford a MW weapon, making his basic attack to be +7 to hit, d8+4 dmg. At 4th level, he can cast alter self before combat (can predict combat probably 80% of the time) to boost his AC by 6 and get natural secondary attacks. By 6th level, he usually had the highest AC in the group (AC 26) thanks to mithril +1 breastplate and +1 mithril buckler and Alter Self. If something looks unusually nasty, he can also throw up a mirror image. He can also fight defensively or go all out defense if needed for an additional +3 or +6 AC (5 ranks in tumble). At low levels, bards are no less durable than rogues in combat. They have the same HD, better AC and at higher levels can use spells to mitigate damage (mirror image, blink, invis, etc). They're as mobile as rogues at low levels and have greater movement capabilites at higher levels (freedom of movement, phantom steed, dimension door). Bards are not the soft squishy things some folks make them out to be. Only those builds that give no consideration to combat are like that (which unfortunately accounts for about 90% of bards out there) or those that focus mainly on the spellcasting aspects (and even those types have spells to get them out of trouble). A final word though...everyone is equally squishy at 1st level and will die to an unlucky crit.
RedKnightofKet 02-06-07, 09:35 PM	....He had power attack at 1st level, so he can convert any bonuses to extra damage (from flanking, tripped, masterwork weapon, etc.).... Ummm, no..... a bard 1 has a BAB of 0, meaning he can power attack for 0 at first level. At second, he can do it for 1, and so on... Any judge who's been letting you power attack at first with no BAB needs to double check his PH.
CdrcJsn 02-06-07, 11:59 PM	Ummm, no..... a bard 1 has a BAB of 0, meaning he can power attack for 0 at first level. At second, he can do it for 1, and so on... Any judge who's been letting you power attack at first with no BAB needs to double check his PH. You're right. Power Attack didn't see use til 2nd level though he took it at 1st level. I was talking about power attack in general and how it worked in the build (utilizing the many ways Bards can get bonuses to hit and channeling it to damage via power attack). I apologize as sometimes I'm not as clear when I post as I would like. But the gist of my post is that the Bard class is nowhere as squishy as people make them out to be. Their HP is the same as Rogues. Their AC and general defense is superior to Rogues (shield use and spell effects like Alter Self). I know for a fact that if there was a huge elder elemental attacking, my 9th level bard would last longer in a one on one fight than a 9th level Barbarian. If Bards wanted to be combat effective, they can do so through a variety of ways (melee damage via power attack, Archery, spellcasting, high AC cork, etc.), without significantly impacting their traditional role of Buffer. The problem is that players attracted to the bard class as their primary (not a dip of a few levels to qualify for something else) tend not to consider the combat side of things.
magebeast 02-07-07, 10:17 AM	My bard is not combat built. His AC at level 5 is 17, and none of his chosen spells are defensive. Despite that, he has taken probably 100 points of damage total in his adventuring career, and he's never done a faceplant. I don't generally provide flanks because I'm not built for it. If you're a support caster primarily, nobody should expect you to wade into combat. Sometimes if I'm playing down, I do end up moving in and providing flanks, but only once everyone else has moved in. If you're built fragilely, there's really no reason for you to try and "cover" for anyone else. It's like that thread talking about running earlier - the attempt to move in and cover could just as easily end up with two people dead instead of one.
Rerednaw 02-07-07, 11:59 AM	Basically he was a light infantry from the start with 14 Strength and AC 18 (chain shirt, large shield, +2 dex)... 14 str, 14 dex? If LG I'm assuming 14 con? That means...18 points in physicals stats...leaving 10 for mental/casting stats. An 18 physical/10 mental build means your bard is better in melee than my build. My bard is more like 14 physical/14 mental or 12/16. I may redesign with emphasis with on physical stats. After basic adventuring gear, he didn't have enough left over for a chain shirt at the start but he upgraded after his first AR. At 4th level, he can cast alter self before combat (can predict combat probably 80% of the time) to boost his AC by 6 and get natural secondary attacks. By 6th level, he usually had the highest AC in the group (AC 26) thanks to mithril +1 breastplate and +1 mithril buckler and Alter Self. If something looks unusually nasty, he can also throw up a mirror image. He can also fight defensively or go all out defense if needed for an additional +3 or +6 AC (5 ranks in tumble). Okay I'm assuming something like this: After an hour or two in the dungeon a combat encounter occurs. No surprise. Round 1: Inspire Round 2: Alter Self. Round 3: Enter combat. In the general case is that what your bard does?
Mattastrophic 02-07-07, 12:41 PM	Cedric! Hey, I got quite inspired after ConQuest SF last year when you told me about your human straight bard. See, my own not-so-combat-worthy-yet-somewhat-salvageable bard, Sylvia, she got access to Snowflake Wardance, and so I've been kicking around a few things, and I could use some advice. Particularly, what spells are you planning to take? I've been kicking around stuff like Alter Self, Tactical Precision, Critical Strike, Focusing Chant, and Improvisation. Also, feats? You mentioned Arcane Strike, what about stuff like Expertise? Power Attack? I've also been kicking around combining Improved Trip with stuff that adds to ability checks, like Improvisation, Focusing Chant, Good Hope, and maybe the Marshal's Art of War aura. With Snowflake Wardance, she could wield both a longsword and a whip and use her low iterative for a trip attack. They're both slashing weapons, so she'd get the Wardance bonus on both. Side props to Mommy Was an Orc regarding using scrolls for Crafting. She's a Charisma Marshal, so her UMD could get pretty high with not many ranks.
CdrcJsn 02-07-07, 03:16 PM	[/size] 14 str, 14 dex? If LG I'm assuming 14 con? That means...18 points in physicals stats...leaving 10 for mental/casting stats. An 18 physical/10 mental build means your bard is better in melee than my build.[/size] Yes. Starting stats of Str14, Dex14, Con14, Int12, Wis8, Cha14 The first two stat bumps went to Con. The rest is going to Cha. Most of his spells are self buffs so he doesn't have to worry about DCs like a typical spellcasting bard. Thanks to CWI and high UMD, he was able to craft the stat boost items at reduced cost once he hit 8th level. He's now in a strange spot where his fort save is better than his will save. He's got access to Ruin Delver's Fortune and with that spell, he can boost any of his saves by his Charisma bonus for a few rounds. [/size] Okay I'm assuming something like this: After an hour or two in the dungeon a combat encounter occurs. No surprise. Round 1: Inspire Round 2: Alter Self. Round 3: Enter combat. In the general case is that what your bard does?[/size] I try not to cast defensive spells during combat unless it looks extremely dangerous (raging barbarians or rending trolls at APL4) and stood at around AC22. After 6th level, he was basically able to craft 2nd level pearls of power for 2k, so Alter Self pretty much stayed up all the time he needed it (took Arcane Preparation at 3rd level to use pearls). But at levels 4-5, yeah. That was the basic strategy. At his current level (10th), Alter Self pretty much stays up for 10 hours a day thanks to a rod of lesser extend and two 2nd level pearls. He uses a hat of disguise to look normal. Pre-Combat: Phantom Steed (200' move), Alter Self Round 1: Harmonize, Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage (+3/+4, MW drum) Round 2: Haste, Focusing Chant, Inspire Greatness (self), move to flank Round 3: Bladeweave, Attack Round 4: Critical Strike, Attack That sequence grants him +7 to hit/+4 dmg, 20 temporary hit points, +1 fort save and an extra attack while giving his party +4 to hit/+4 dmg, bonus movement and an extra attack. Bladeweave causes one of his hits each round to daze an opponent for one round (will save DC 15). Critical Strike doubles his crit range and adds 1d6 damage vs flanked foes. Alter Self also grants secondary natural weapon attacks. He usually uses a 3rd level spell for arcane strike for an additional +3 hit/+3d4 dmg to all his weapon attacks for the round. If things look unusually dangerous, he'll spend an additional round to buff with a defensive spell (mirror image or blink) and use his move action to buff someone else with inspire greatness (up to 30' away). Unlike self-buffing clerics that use the divine power, righteous might, and divine favor route to be combat monsters but arrive 3 rounds too late, most of the bard buffs can also affect the party members so they're not wasted actions. At tables where there's another bard, he can skip most of the party buffs and get into combat with a single defensive spell up. Likewise with a party cleric that likes to cast Righteous Wrath of the Faithful.
CdrcJsn 02-07-07, 03:59 PM	Particularly, what spells are you planning to take? I've been kicking around stuff like Alter Self, Tactical Precision, Critical Strike, Focusing Chant, and Improvisation. At his current level (10th): 1: Critical Strike, Improvisation, Focusing Chant, Inspirational Boost 2: Alter Self, Bladeweave, Harmonize, Mirror Image 3: Blink, Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed, Haste 4: Ruin Delver's Fortune, Dimension Door* Cha currently not high enough to get 4th level spells, but have enough gold to craft a +4 cloak...just haven't played him this year yet. Future spells: 4: Spectral Weapon, Freedom of Movement 5: Cacaphonic Burst, Greater Blink, Greater Dispel Magic I'm also waiting on the LGCS to see if there are any new stuff added from the PHBII and Complete Mage. Greater Mirror Image in particular is one that I wouldn't mind adding. Also, feats? You mentioned Arcane Strike, what about stuff like Expertise? Power Attack? I've also been kicking around combining Improved Trip with stuff that adds to ability checks, like Improvisation, Focusing Chant, Good Hope, and maybe the Marshal's Art of War aura. With Snowflake Wardance, she could wield both a longsword and a whip and use her low iterative for a trip attack. They're both slashing weapons, so she'd get the Wardance bonus on both.. I considered taking Combat Expertise (reason starting Int was 12), but decided against it. I could get enough defense via spells that I don't really need it. On those rare occasions where I've had to stand in a door to keep monsters away from the rest of the party, I can just go all out defense for +6 AC. I've actually done that tactic twice now, once where this crypt thing could basically rend anyone else in the party and the only thing that can damage it is the sorceress behind me casting magic missiles, and another time where we decided to take on the untiered encounter at APL8 (8 flesh golems and a high level aranea caster that created them, who promptly got silenced and grappled). Improvisation is a nice spell, but unfortunately I don't get to cast it during combat that often. It's more for out of combat use I think (at least until I pick up Quicken Spell at 15th level). I've also got access to Snowflake Wardance, but since the feat is limited to one handed weapons, I've decided not to take it since most of my melee damage comes from two handed power attack. My feats are: Human) Skill Focus: UMD (when I made him there was talk that Alter Self is equivalent to Polymorph and made your human bonus feat disappear, it's been ruled otherwise in LG, but I'm stuck with it) 1) Power Attack 3) Arcane Preparation 6) Craft Wondrous Item 9) Arcane Strike 12) Craft Arms and Armor 15) Quicken Spell I've used CWI to get item access and upgrade my gear (mainly stat boost items and pearls of power). With a high UMD score (currently +23 for scrolls), I can pretty much make any item I come across that uses low level spells. Craft Arms and Armor will increase my offense (bane, flaming, frost, spell storing, sacred) and defense (defending weapon, energy resistances on armor). Keep in mind that I built my character with a single concept: mobile melee fighter that gets bonuses to hit and channels that into power attack to do damage. Almost everything I've chosen for feats, spells and skills are devoted to that. If you're building a terrain control specialist, you'll probably want to build your guy differently.