Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grantor 06-27-07, 12:43 PM	I played a year 6 core mod last night and earned a unique item which my druid was very excited about getting. ...and then I noticed it was Adventure access. :weep: My first level druid will never be able to buy it. The item costs nearly 5000 gp, yet it was awarded at APL 2. It is impossible to to earn that much in three ARs. Even with three two-rounders! I was very disappointed. Why would an item like that get onto an AR at APL 2? Couldn't they have had a greater and lesser version of the same item? Since this is a unique item, there will never be another chance to earn something like this for this--or any of my other--character. Yeah, I'm just ranting. This character will have a long career and have many chances to earn other stuff. But it was 80% specific to Druids, so I guess I feel robbed for playing this adventure when I did not have money sitting in the bank (because I only had 900 xp/gp so far). Can anyone suggest other means by which I can acquire this item before the adventure access expires at the end of three more ARs?
Howie23 06-27-07, 01:27 PM	Can anyone suggest other means by which I can acquire this item before the adventure access expires at the end of three more ARs? I've occasionally run across favors that allow reviving old access. Alternately, if it is in the items found section, you can craft it if you meet the prereqs. David
Grantor 06-27-07, 01:36 PM	Alternately, if it is in the items found section, you can craft it if you meet the prereqs. It was listed in both Item's found and the Accesses, but I was never planning to take the needed item creation feat. I have a feat-heavy build plan. And I wasn't planning to take that many druid levels. Drat. But, yes, I have come across one "access resurrector" in my time doing LG. So there is something to hope for.
Howie23 06-27-07, 02:17 PM	It was listed in both Item's found and the Accesses, but I was never planning to take the needed item creation feat. I have a feat-heavy build plan. And I wasn't planning to take that many druid levels. Drat. Assuming for a moment it is CWI 5000k, that you can meet the prereqs, and are willing to take 3 levels of Druid: You can take CWI at 3rd, build it for 2500, save up another 2500, retrain CWI away (at 4th or 5th), and pay the second 2500 at that time. Total cost 5400 or 5500. All things are possible. Some things are just expensive. :) David
_metz_ 06-27-07, 02:22 PM	Assuming for a moment it is CWI 5000k, that you can meet the prereqs, and are willing to take 3 levels of Druid: You can take CWI at 3rd, build it for 2500, save up another 2500, retrain CWI away (at 4th or 5th), and pay the second 2500 at that time. Total cost 5400 or 5500. All things are possible. Some things are just expensive. :) David That kind of thinking will get retraining taken away again. Just quietly.
Howie23 06-27-07, 02:27 PM	That kind of thinking will get retraining taken away again. Just quietly. That kind of thinking is fundamental to how the system is currently designed. If it is seen as abusive, then the sytem should be modified to correct the abuse (disallow retrain of crafting, say), rather than hide the strategies under the table. Brainstorming on possibilities finds the extremes of the system; as individuals we can still exercise restraint on actually making those choices. YMMV. :) David
Mocoso 06-27-07, 02:47 PM	they put thing like that for higher level characters, meanwhile low level get like a wand or some other thing that is core open access. blame the editors/triads for not thinking of the low levels. if it's not breaking they should make it open access or just make it a favor to spend and then you can get it
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 03:00 PM	That kind of thinking will get retraining taken away again. Just quietly. Just how will that get retraining taken away? You've paid full price for the item. Just because the newest ruleset allows new ideas does not automatically mean those ideas are bad for the game. Just like crafting multiple-spell scrolls. -Matt
JohnduBois 06-27-07, 06:04 PM	That kind of thinking will get retraining taken away again. Just quietly. I think that kind of thinking is more likely to get CMI changed in the future to have the crafting time limited to the access time. And somehow, I doubt that will be a quiet process.
ShinAkuma2 06-27-07, 06:12 PM	I think that kind of thinking is more likely to get CMI changed in the future to have the crafting time limited to the access time. Ew. It's bad enough that there's no in-game reason given to us that you have to pay for the money you saved by crafting if you retrain a crafting feat...
Grantor 06-27-07, 06:37 PM	blame the editors/triads for not thinking of the low levels. if it's not breaking they should make it open access or just make it a favor to spend and then you can get it I guess that's what was so disappointing. One of the big rewards for this two round mod was a unique item. But if you played at APL 2, you get access to this item, but can never possibly afford to buy it in the next three ARs. (Math: Max gold possible before Level 3 = 3000 gp+starting cash. APL 4 gold max 675 x 3 = 1925. So if you did not spend anything at all until you reached nearly 4th level, and played up for the next three adventures, you might be able to afford this item. If you didn't die.) But, another problem with ARs is that the collection of items that are affordable for low level parties are all consumables. And those are all Open now anyway. If I were new to the RPGA and played this in my first couple of levels, I would be worried that the campaign was extremely tight-fisted compared to a home game. I might possibly reconsider putting a lot of time into this campaign. APL 2 is obviously the starting point for everyone (Unless they get dragged off to an Intro), and that sort of issue should be avoided.
bitznarf 06-27-07, 07:23 PM	Ew. It's bad enough that there's no in-game reason given to us that you have to pay for the money you saved by crafting if you retrain a crafting feat... Game balance, simple as that. Would you prefer that you could never retrain a crafting feat? I guess that's what was so disappointing. One of the big rewards for this two round mod was a unique item. But if you played at APL 2, you get access to this item, but can never possibly afford to buy it in the next three ARs. Would you prefer that it not be possible to get the item if you played at APL2? But, another problem with ARs is that the collection of items that are affordable for low level parties are all consumables. And those are all Open now anyway. If I were new to the RPGA and played this in my first couple of levels, I would be worried that the campaign was extremely tight-fisted compared to a home game. I might possibly reconsider putting a lot of time into this campaign. APL 2 is obviously the starting point for everyone (Unless they get dragged off to an Intro), and that sort of issue should be avoided. Are you looking only at the Year 6 Core mods, or also the Year 7s? Ie. the ones written after the new LGCS came into effect.
Lupo 06-27-07, 07:25 PM	I guess that's what was so disappointing. One of the big rewards for this two round mod was a unique item. But if you played at APL 2, you get access to this item, but can never possibly afford to buy it in the next three ARs. (Math: Max gold possible before Level 3 = 3000 gp+starting cash. APL 4 gold max 675 x 3 = 1925. So if you did not spend anything at all until you reached nearly 4th level, and played up for the next three adventures, you might be able to afford this item. If you didn't die.) But, another problem with ARs is that the collection of items that are affordable for low level parties are all consumables. And those are all Open now anyway. If I were new to the RPGA and played this in my first couple of levels, I would be worried that the campaign was extremely tight-fisted compared to a home game. I might possibly reconsider putting a lot of time into this campaign. APL 2 is obviously the starting point for everyone (Unless they get dragged off to an Intro), and that sort of issue should be avoided. :) hehe, guess what i thought about the campaign when i joined :D essentially it was the day AFTER they shut down magic mart in year two AND took out all item certificates from the adventures :( the ARs were blanks and the money was often barely more than lifestyle :P ciao martin m. ps: at the moment the crafting rules are slightly less "crafter friendly" then they used to be, but my crafting characters - and i think most other crafters as well - can live with it (maybe limiting crafting access to one year might be an option, but would rise the paperwork somehow, having it shorter than this would hit those secondary or third line characters with crafting feats really hard). some loopholes with "retraining" cheese should be watched, if too much cheese leaks out they have to be closed.
Grantor 06-27-07, 07:59 PM	Would you prefer that it not be possible to get the item if you played at APL2? Ah, but they would have had to give us something to make the gp value for the mod! Are you looking only at the Year 6 Core mods, or also the Year 7s? Ie. the ones written after the new LGCS came into effect. My point was that it is really, really hard to give level two characters something interesting that they can afford because there are few Wonderous Items that are in the low gp range. The challenge to have item access for APL 2 became greater when they opened all comsumables (below lvl 3), since that used to be a big staple in year 6. The MI Compendium will be a big help here...once it becomes incorporated into mod writing. But that might take a while.
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 08:13 PM	I hear you, Grantor-man. It's my experience, though, that at least in the Cores and the regionals I've been seeing, more and more of these types of expensive items offered at low levels are being given Regional and Core access. The worst offenders I can recall were: -Wings of Flying at APL 6 -Malthindor -A year 4 SHE that offered a unique item called the Celestial Lion's Tooth, which granted a +1 sacred bonus to the same rolls a Luckstone does. 20,000gp. At APL 6. Of course, Adventure access. -Ring of Freedom of Movement, APL 8 -Ring of Protection +5, APL 8 -Bracers of Armor +8, APL 6-8, I can't recall which And the biggest offender: -Some unique Amulet from SHE4-02 Check the Fine Print, which was really friggin expensive, scaling up to (iirc) a version worth over 200,000gp at 16. Of course, Adventure access. -Matt
bitznarf 06-27-07, 09:34 PM	I see what you are getting at Grantor. Hopefully with the release of the MIC future ARs will have more APL appropriate rewads; which should help alleviate some/all of your concerns. Personally, I liked having that item at low APL, my druid was already planning on taking CWI though. He has already used it several times to great effect by level 6. Assuming of course that we are talking about the same item/mod, which I am fairly certain that we are. Edit: one other thing that impacts this however, is the reluctance of people to buy 'temporary' items in LG, ones that they are planning on selling later. Buying temporary items would just cost gold in the long run, gold they can't get back. In a normal home campaign it doesn't hurt to hold onto an item while it is useful and then just sell it at a later date. In LG it costs money to get a similar effect, you could almost look at it as renting the item for a while.
Timlagor 06-27-07, 10:32 PM	PLAY ADPS Scourge fo the Howling Horde followed by Barrow should get you to 5k I would think.
bitznarf 06-27-07, 10:44 PM	Scourge can only be played by first level PCs.
Britt 06-27-07, 11:03 PM	-Wings of Flying at APL 6 -Malthindor -A year 4 SHE that offered a unique item called the Celestial Lion's Tooth, which granted a +1 sacred bonus to the same rolls a Luckstone does. 20,000gp. At APL 6. Of course, Adventure access. I actually bought the wings and the tooth. My cleric friend bought Malthindor.
Cardinal Teplin 06-28-07, 08:20 AM	My barbarian has been very busy gathering up adventure access items when he finds them... As a result he is 6th level, and doesn't have magic weapons, magic armour, resistance items or stat boost items. Or a bow, or that fullplate he wanted to buy. Because he really can't afford them, and would have lost the access if he hadn't bought the items he did straight away. After some pointed commented about his armour class, I'm at least saving up for some heavy armour. I'm not sure if that's the intended result of having interesting adventure access items at low APL, but it's the effect it's had on me.
awroe 06-28-07, 08:48 AM	After some pointed commented about his armour class, I'm at least saving up for some heavy armour. Are you sure it wasn't the pointed weapons that did it? :) With unique items, especially ones offered by people as rewards, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have them be Core access but limited to one purchase only. That way you can buy them later, but can't abuse it if the item is very good.
KShaver 06-28-07, 09:03 AM	Can anyone suggest other means by which I can acquire this item before the adventure access expires at the end of three more ARs? Play way up in something with a single crazy long AR like Dragondown Grotto or the last AR of RHoD. As long as there is an appropriate level group of 5 players already there you won't affect the APL too much and they should still be ok. 5 10th level characters = 5x10/5 = APL 10 5 10th levels + 1 2nd = (5x10+2)/6+1 = APL 9.67
UMiskatonic 06-28-07, 10:05 AM	Or, come to terms with the fact that you will NOT buy most of the things you get access to. That's just how it is. If the original poster -does- buy this cool thing, then there's another cool thing out there that he/she can't afford. It's opportunity cost, and I, for one, am REALLY glad that it's there. As for access, most access, in my opinion, should either be adventure, or regional if a local power is offering items. Core access should be reserved for organizations which really do have a power base stretching across the Flaness, like the Circle of Eight, or the Scarlet Brotherhood.
bitznarf 06-28-07, 10:22 AM	Core can only be bought after a Core mod, and as such anybody that has a 'Core' power base would offer items as 'Core' access. 'Any' access should be reserved for Flaness spanning organizations, not 'Core' access.
chesspiece 06-28-07, 09:36 PM	I guess that's what was so disappointing. One of the big rewards for this two round mod was a unique item. But if you played at APL 2, you get access to this item, but can never possibly afford to buy it in the next three ARs. 1) What about a PC that is level 4 (almost level 5) playing at APL2? They might be able to purchase it in time. 2) You mentioned that the item is well suited to Druids (a spellcasting class that can benefit from crafting magic items). Some Druids will take the necessary CMI feat. 3) ADP modules were mentioned. If a PC is level 2, they can attempt Barrow of the Forgotten King. 2 ARs yield >3,500GP. The level 3 PC could then play Fane of the Drow for another >2,000GP. So a level2 PC could get >5,000GP in 3 ARs in LG. In the future, we may see more low-level ADPs that will support this trend. The CGRs are supposed to be >2 rounds so they might help PCs that are eligible to play them. 4) Favours that restore access have already been mentioned. 5) Is it justified that a level 1-2 punk should own such a cool, unique, expensive item? ;) If I were in a random party of new LG PCs (not expecting to continue adventuring together), I’d probably (In Character) insist on selling the item before we went our separate ways. It’s disappointing, but a fighter deserves good armor & weapons just as much as your druid deserves the new toy. Sure, you might never regain access, but the fighter is risking perma-death in the meantime. My feeling is that this isn't a worrisome / significant trend. Most ARs don't give the great & expensive adventure access items at APL2. When they do, I'd rather get access I can't use than not get access I might be able to use at some point. Ah, but they would have had to give us something to make the gp value for the mod! Not necessarily. They could put all the access at APL4+. :weep: The GP at APL2 could easily consist of coins and items that we have LGCS access to. My point was that it is really, really hard to give level two characters something interesting that they can afford because there are few Wonderous Items that are in the low gp range. The challenge to have item access for APL 2 became greater when they opened all comsumables (below lvl 3), since that used to be a big staple in year 6. The MI Compendium will be a big help here...once it becomes incorporated into mod writing. But that might take a while. True. I think it's deliberate that LGCS597 increased access to "necessities" and splatbook mundane equipment around the time that MIC came out with new pricing & more low-GP options. Once we've played our way through the pre-LGCS597 / pre-MIC modules, we should frequently see MIC items in the AR access.
bitznarf 06-28-07, 10:15 PM	..
Vamroc 07-02-07, 10:33 PM	I have a level four fighter and from time to time I have to play with groups that consist of ones and twos. Now I have five grand and they don't because I often played up to APL4 when I was at their level. Plus some of those are two round adventures. So I when play down I can buy things they can't. That's why ARs have items a player can't afford at his APL.
thorinXXX 07-03-07, 01:42 PM	I have a level four fighter and from time to time I have to play with groups that consist of ones and twos. Now I have five grand and they don't because I often played up to APL4 when I was at their level. Plus some of those are two round adventures. So I when play down I can buy things they can't. That's why ARs have items a player can't afford at his APL. That still doesn't help when you get Adventure access to a Monk's Belt at APL 2. The adventure and access are supposed to be geared towards the APL played at, not people playing up or down. And, yes, I have seen this on an AR. Why are APL 2 characters fighting something with an item that costs 12000+ gp?
Madfox11 07-04-07, 03:35 AM	No clue, but either it was a minor mistake or more likely the Triad/author had a good reason for this. More often than not though the unique and expensive items at low APL are the result of a plot-related item. Instead of automatically removing it, and getting a lot of complaints about it, the triad simply keeps it in for those few that can afford and want to do so to buy it.
Lupo 07-04-07, 08:40 AM	That still doesn't help when you get Adventure access to a Monk's Belt at APL 2. The adventure and access are supposed to be geared towards the APL played at, not people playing up or down. And, yes, I have seen this on an AR. Why are APL 2 characters fighting something with an item that costs 12000+ gp? sometimes one has to keep items in, to not disrupt the logic of an adventure or an adventure series. like the COR3-02 "return to the isle of woe" where at all APLs from 2 to 12 one can find the sword "malthindor, oblivion's blade" for a super discount price of 10,000 gp ;). or imagine the stunned looks if the "brutal orc clan chief, infamous for killing humans with his cruel human-bane orc-double axe" has nothing than a cheap replica without any powers - ok, i wouldn't write a "bane" weapon in an APL 2 but maybe in an APL 4 *ouch!!!* ciao martin m.
thorinXXX 07-04-07, 01:48 PM	sometimes one has to keep items in, to not disrupt the logic of an adventure or an adventure series. like the COR3-02 "return to the isle of woe" where at all APLs from 2 to 12 one can find the sword "malthindor, oblivion's blade" for a super discount price of 10,000 gp ;). or imagine the stunned looks if the "brutal orc clan chief, infamous for killing humans with his cruel human-bane orc-double axe" has nothing than a cheap replica without any powers - ok, i wouldn't write a "bane" weapon in an APL 2 but maybe in an APL 4 *ouch!!!* ciao martin m. Why would an APL 2, 4, or even 6 opponent have such a reputation? The campaign has gotten much better at not having 1st and 2nd level charaters defeating foes that epic heroes could not eliminate. We no longer have APL 2-16 all facing the epic villain, so there is no longer a reason for the APL 2 version to have his legendary weapon.