Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 08-17-07, 08:10 PM	Yes, it may or may not be the end of LG, but I'd much rather cross that bridge when I come to it than throw myself in the river now...
CdrcJsn 08-17-07, 08:25 PM	A very enlightened way of looking at the situation. At the very least, you'll save yourself the ulcers others seem determined to get with their hysterics. Cedric
solbergb 08-17-07, 09:10 PM	I'm waiting for more information before changing my behavior. I actually don't care about edition changes, I'm fairly immune financially from noticing the cost of new books at this point in my life. A new edition just is another exercise is matching mechanics to character concepts. I've "ported" characters between much less similar game systems than one version of D&D to another. I have, however, been thinking since the announcement about which characters I can retire "as is" and which really need more play before I feel they've had a good run. Just in case and all. What I do care about is whether or not my characters can continue to play in a greyhawk setting. Even with a conversion some characters may be tied too closely conceptually to some mechanics (I imagine our bright sands chars will be retired after Dominion - they were headed that way anyway and their adventuring motivation was tied up in that plotline.....and will there be Asherati and Centaurs in LG4.0? Probably not. If I had last two years to do over again, I would have played the bright sands modules with our wood elves, who did Traitor Road. That would have given them about 2 levels more of "airtime" - and we like those characters better than our bright sands characters) I think most of our others could convert to new mechanics without losing their identity. Not as many could survive moving to a new campaign world though and only the baby characters could survive having to start over.
LGMoses 08-19-07, 01:51 AM	4e comes and brings with it the end of Greyhawk. All is lost! All is lost! Stop wasting time on your characters so they can be murdered by Elminster and Drizzt do'Urden so that Wizards can attract the FR fanboys! They have laid the Circle of Eight low and replaced it with their legions of ascended characters. They just want to sell you the FRCS AGAIN! then there is the Magic of Faerun, etc. O, and lets not forget the next line of Complete books!
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 06:38 PM	. . . wow. What does it say about things that I've now seen so much melodrama about these announcements that, honestly, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if that was a sincere post? I've not played LG, so I honestly can't phathom the attachment some of you feel to this campaign, but really now. I've seen quote from Braveheart ("You can take our campaign, but you can't take our freedom!"), comparisons of LG having a contract hit on it, and this. As a non-LG player, I was sad to hear that such a long-running campaign is coming to an end, I really am. I just don't get why some people are responding as personally as they are. You'd think the RPGA just kicked everyone's puppies. All good things must come to an end. In 7-10 years (knock on wood that it lasts that long) LFR will end too - let everyone be aware of that going in. "Always leave 'em wanting more" has long been a maxim for entertainers. While the loss of LG is indeed a sad thing, perhaps you can take a little heart from the fact that they've managed to do just that. You're left wanting more, thinking of all the good times you've had. Were the plug not pulled, it's likely that at some point in the future LG would have eventually started to wither and decay, leaving people with a bitter taste in their mouths. Take comfort in what you've had, it's better to go out on top, than to linger on beyond your prime.
MadVlad 08-19-07, 09:49 PM	Gunpowder? Are you serious?
Maesto 08-19-07, 09:59 PM	yeah, FR has gunpowder. You can just tell that it's going to be bad from that, can't you? *shudders* wolfstar, I think what you don't get is that some of us have put a lot of work into the campaign in the form of regional development, as well as character development. I'm rather attached to my characters and how they fit into the storylines. I've made plans for how characters can interact with plots, what factions they'll be loyal to, and how I'd like to influence the campaign with what I write. It's a real kick in the gut to be told that everything that we've worked for in creating some really kick-ass playing opportunities is going to be shot down in flames come a set date that really isn't all that far away. Sure, I've had a great time playing, but we kinda hope that our efforts are to make something lasting and worthwhile that people will enjoy. My hobby isn't D&D. My hobby is LG. And I know that others feel the same way.
MichaelAhlf 08-19-07, 10:02 PM	. . . What does it say about things that I've now seen so much melodrama about these announcements that, honestly, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if that was a sincere post? I've not played LG, so I honestly can't phathom the attachment some of you feel to this campaign, but really now. I've seen quote from Braveheart ("You can take our campaign, but you can't take our freedom!"), comparisons of LG having a contract hit on it, and this. As a non-LG player, I was sad to hear that such a long-running campaign is coming to an end, I really am. I just don't get why some people are responding as personally as they are. You'd think the RPGA just kicked everyone's puppies. Essentially, that is precisely what happened. Players with years of play - who had invested time, tears, joy, and fun - are being shown that WotC simply does not care. It's one thing for your character to die irretrievably, or in a TPK. It's one thing for them to retire, be it into NPC-dom or the high level campaign. It's quite another to watch the entire world have the rug pulled out from under it. I have a friend who had just been tapped to write new storylines, new modules, who was overjoyed at the prospect. He was overjoyed to write for Greyhawk, because it was Living Greyhawk. He is not at all interested in LFR and I can only imagine the sense of betrayal this is showing, especially after investing significant money in campaign source to have on hand to supplement and enhance his writing. He writes fantastic modules and it's a sad day to see him, and all the volunteers for the campaign, treated like this. I had been working very hard to bring new players into the campaign this summer; of the whole lot, I fully expect maybe 1 to actually enter LFR, and that's being optimistic. What's the difference between LG and the "campaigns" WotC kept trying to force us into? People actually invest in and enjoy LG. Yeah. Doing this IS like coming in and kicking our puppy. How about that. It works just as well as any other analogy people have made. Michael
_metz_ 08-19-07, 10:09 PM	Hey I can't see the post I put in earlier... hmm... forum troubles or was it deleted for being too accurate? here it is again: Response to Wolfstar76. It has done nothing but grow here in Australia, saying it may have died at some point is pretty inaccurate. If you have never played it then you don't understand the hundreds of people who write mods, organise conventions and games days, etc who have all been shafted after years of long service. Not to mention the fact that a lot of us have characters with a couple of years of investment in them! I looked up Elminster last night, it looks like one of the most silly self glorified characters I have ever seen. A veritable Gandalf rip off superguy who gets with goddesses. Elminster looks like he is what every nerdy FR person WANTS to be rather than a legitimate NPC and character! (we all wish we were level 30) And Drizzt, mate the guy has a sword called Twinkle. This guy is like the most famous 'serious' character in FR How are we to take any such thing seriously? pretty sure Mordenkainen, Rary, etc were much better NPCs. Lets not forget the setting has Gunpowder, and all sorts of other daft things. It looks terrible, and if Elminster is ANYTHING to go by, it'll be a laughing stock for any serious LGer. I mean for FFS he looks like Gandalf but does everything, that is the serious alternative to Mordenkainen?
Haro 08-19-07, 10:38 PM	It has done nothing but grow here in Australia, saying it may have died at some point is pretty inaccurate.. Wrong. Coming from someone who lives in Sydney, I find that a borderline comical comment. Perhaps you should ask some of the senior players in your town to find out how many played *before* you started - which is most of the campaign by the way. If you have never played it then you don't understand the hundreds of people who write mods, organise conventions and games days, etc who have all been shafted after years of long service. I've written mods and organise conventions. I've spent thousands of dollars on product and more on travel and accommodation for cons. I don't feel shafted, in fact I'm really looking forward to new beginnings. Please don't presume to speak for me. Coming from someone who has not written a mod or organised a convention, I am offended by your misplaced anger. If you haven't played LG, than I suggest you not come here with FR propaganda. You have no basis of comparison Again, do not presume to speak for me. I don't believe a vote was held that appointed you player's representative. No? Please don't act as such, the sheriff's badge you are wearing actually comes from a cereal box - it isn't real. Joe
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 10:56 PM	At the risk of rubbing salt in wounds, this is some of the melodrama I don't understand. Hey I can't see the post I put in earlier... hmm... forum troubles or was it deleted for being too accurate? here it is again: Too accurate? More likely slightly inflammatory given your final sentance, but we'll get there. Response to Wolfstar76. It has done nothing but grow here in Australia, saying it may have died at some point is pretty inaccurate. Just to be clear, I don't mean it *has* died, but given enough time all things do. Do you really expect that LG would have gone on forever? I could be wrong, but I find that highly unlikely. If you have never played it then you don't understand the hundreds of people who write mods, organise conventions and games days, etc who have all been shafted after years of long service. Where exactly have you been shafted? You've had a GREAT run, and apparently you've had a great time doing it. Yes, the RPGA is pulling the rug out from under you to a degree, and stopping this particular campaign, but have they somehow torn the joy you so obviously dervied over the years from you? Not to mention the fact that a lot of us have characters with a couple of years of investment in them! I looked up Elminster last night, it looks like one of the most silly self glorified characters I have ever seen. A veritable Gandalf rip off superguy who gets with goddesses. Elminster looks like he is what every nerdy FR person WANTS to be rather than a legitimate NPC and character! (we all wish we were level 30) If you follow Elminster's entire backstory, he's actually holding a portion of the Goddess of Magic's power in reserve for her. . . or something to that effect. It's been a few years since I read much FR. Think of him more as a demigod and less of an NPC. And Drizzt, mate the guy has a sword called Twinkle. This guy is like the most famous 'serious' character in FR How are we to take any such thing seriously? pretty sure Mordenkainen, Rary, etc were much better NPCs. We toss fireballs, we swing swords and hit several times in a 6-second window, we sneak down hallways invisible to all but the most caustious of eyes. How seriously are we to take ANY of what we do? Lets not forget the setting has Gunpowder, and all sorts of other daft things. I've never quite understood the "gunpowder invalidates fantasy" stance, but to each their own. Last time I was in tune with FR, while gunpowder existed it was illegal/contraband in most places. It looks terrible, and if Elminster is ANYTHING to go by, it'll be a laughing stock for any serious LGer. I mean for FFS he looks like Gandalf but does everything, that is the serious alternative to Mordenkainen? Why base your perceptions of an entire world on one admittedly overpowered NPC/demigod? Yes, FR is magic-heavy, but, despite popular opinion, not every farmhand will be carrying a +1 pitchfork of Hay Making. If you haven't played LG, than I suggest you not come here with FR propaganda. You have no basis of comparison. I carefully re-read my post, I didn't see any FR propaganda in it. Not once did I say anything about giving FR a chance, try to claim it's great or anything of the sort. Instead my post was an attempt to: * Gain an understanding of why people aren't just upset, but are being INCREDIBLY dramatic about it. Yes, change sucks sometimes, but change is life. * Try to put a little spin on things for those that DO feel deeply about the end of LG. To help you look fondly on the good times you've HAD in your campaign, rather than turn doom and gloom and declare that everything that isn't, wasn't, and won't be LG has and will suck for all eternity. If people wish to wallow, that's fine. That's how some people heal. Telling people to blankity-blank off when they're trying to help you find the silver lining is hardly neccesary, and probably the REAL reason your post was removed (assuming it wasn't a simple server hiccup). Not because you've put words to some great truth that WoTC would prefer to hide behind an iron curtain. I'm sorry if I've offended, it truly wasn't my desire. I'm simply amazed at the (in my opinion) OVER reaction to what's coming down the pipe. [/sblock][/QUOTE]
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 11:00 PM	[quote]My hobby isn't D&D. My hobby is LG. And I know that others feel the same way. Now that is a simple and concise answer that helps put things in perspective. All the same, I hope you can take joy, ultimately, from the times you've had, and not the times you've potentially lost.
MichaelAhlf 08-19-07, 11:03 PM	[QUOTE=Maesto;13476501] Now that is a simple and concise answer that helps put things in perspective. All the same, I hope you can take joy, ultimately, from the times you've had, and not the times you've potentially lost. Both emotions can coexist freely. That the second doesn't have to be, were it not for a company that is actively showing how little they care about their player base? That just twists the knife.
Mithreinmaethor 08-19-07, 11:11 PM	[QUOTE=WolfStar76;13477161] Both emotions can coexist freely. That the second doesn't have to be, were it not for a company that is actively showing how little they care about their player base? That just twists the knife. I am sorry to say it but LG was just a small percentage of the D&D franchise that is/was 3.5. It may be the percentage that you were intimately familiar with, but still it was a small percentage. Any time a change is made in a gaming system there is turnover in the player base. It doesnt mean that the company doesnt care about their players, its just that they can not jeopardize their future to cater to a small minority.
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 11:15 PM	Both emotions can coexist freely. Good point, duly noted. That the second doesn't have to be, were it not for a company that is actively showing how little they care about their player base? That just twists the knife. See, I'll never understand THAT mentality either. Every time a company anywhere makes a decision that people (from 1% to 100%) don't like, the automatic assumption is that they don't care about their customers (and in the long run, we ARE customers). If they didn't care, why bother with another living campaign at all? Why wait until next year to bring about the finale? Why hint at removing TU restrictions so you can get all the play in that you want? I'm not in a position to judge how wise this move is or isn't. I'm not in a position to judge if LFR will bomb, be great, hobble along, or be "just enough". But I really doubt the RPGA doesn't care. This isn't some nebulous shadow-organization that's so big we can't tell who's pulling what strings. If you've been to the major cons you KNOW who the key players are, and you've probably met them. They aren't hiding in cubicles, separating themselves from the player/customer base, they're out there listening to us. Maybe I'm blind but, I fail to see how that indicates they don't care.
_metz_ 08-19-07, 11:21 PM	Wrong. Coming from someone who lives in Sydney, I find that a borderline comical comment. Perhaps you should ask some of the senior players in your town to find out how many played *before* you started - which is most of the campaign by the way. I've written mods and organise conventions. I've spent thousands of dollars on product and more on travel and accommodation for cons. I don't feel shafted, in fact I'm really looking forward to new beginnings. Please don't presume to speak for me. Coming from someone who has not written a mod or organised a convention, I am offended by your misplaced anger. Again, do not presume to speak for me. I don't believe a vote was held that appointed you player's representative. No? Please don't act as such, the sheriff's badge you are wearing actually comes from a cereal box - it isn't real. Joe Haro FIRSTLY, I moved to Sydney from Armidale, don't be so damn presumptuous, yourself. no-one played LG in Armidale, and now a lot do. I personally have brought several new gamers to LG myself. I have seen nothing but growth, and yes, do in fact also game with many older players too. I think it is you that are assuming far too much. Actually I am a master level GM, have started GMing at Cons, Have run a lot of games (Especially in Armidale), and was writing two mods and a meta org, that I have now stopped writing as there is no point. I think you are exercising the sort of irritating elitism (I wrote a mod in year two therefore I am better than you and only my opinion matters, also because I get the 5 year anecdotes my character is better roleplayed than yours) which is why a lot of players in NSW were disenfranchised with moving back to Perrenland, despite the well written nature of the modules. but that is a sort of moot arguement now isn't it. No need to go down that path. Secondly, I know a lot of organizers who now have to run their yearly cons with the knowledge the campaign is coming to an end. I never said I WAS SPEAKING FOR EVERYONE. You just presumed it. Just because you want to play FR and not allow anyone to use your material etc to keep their campaign alive, doesn't mean that is everyone else's view also. I think you are the one that is presuming. You think you have a Sherriff's badge with 'I wrote a mod' written on it, and that makes you worse, as you think you are better. All I said was *we* and I know I speak for several people who find the opinion of someone who never played the campaign to be utterly irrelevant as to whether or not it should end. Just because you are excited doesn't mean all of us are. Take your pretension of mod writing elsewhere, it will mean nothing in the new campaign fortunately. The only thing that stopped me from writing mods is my newness to the game and regional changes. I had to wait till Year 8 to get some mods in for Ratik thanks to that debacle, and now have no incentive. So don't act like I chose to do nothing. Wolfstar, a lot of your points are valid, I just personally took offence to someone who didn't play LG at all telling me not to be irritated by the completely callous way it has been ended. I will try out the new campaign, I just feel people shouldn't be telling me not to be angry over this announcement, particularly the WAY in which the end of LG has been handled. I used to run Games Workshop Tournaments etc, but Games Workshop did EXACTLY what WoTC are doing now. So please forgive me if I don't buy into your benign statements on corporate marketing. As someone who is doing a Managerial Degree I know full well what the results of these moves are likely to entail, and know that it is genuinely an attempt to remove the need to pay any sort of royalties, as well as capture the new MMO market. The flipside to increased sales is less roleplaying, and a probable loss of some of the things that made this system great. I know I won't be playing IF I have to pay to play. Free Modules was what made LG great.
WolfStar76 08-19-07, 11:34 PM	Wolfstar, a lot of your points are valid, I just personally took offence to someone who didn't play LG at all telling me not to be irritated by the completely callous way it has been ended. Misconceptions abound, as one can only expect to happen when emotions run high. No hard feelings here. My intent wasn't to indicate you shouldn't be upset, sore, wounded, irritated, winded, or otherwise foul from the announcement. I was, however, amazed by the amount of hyperbole and melodrama some people are peppering their posts with. Personally, I find that while such a rant might feel good to the author, it's best reserved for private forums (conversations with friends, posts to closed lists, blogs, etc). In a public forum like this, it ultimately detracts from the conversation at hand (as is evidenced by this very sidetrack of my own creation). Again, please re-read my post (as you seem to have done) with unclouded eyes. I'm not rah-rahing the RPGA here, and I'm not telling people to be unhurt. I *was* however trying to point out that the melodrama was getting a little deep. I probably should have just said all this from the beginning and avoided this larger confrontation, but such is how a conversation goes. (EDIT, since you edited) So please forgive me if I don't buy into your benign statements on corporate marketing. I think you have me confused for someone else, as, again, I said nothing about marketing. You might just be reading too much into what I said, however. I'm glad you'll at least be open-minded enough to TRY the new campaign, I don't personally care for the Living system, but I too will be giving it a go. Perhaps we'll share a table someday. :) Just for conversation, what would have made a "better" ending to LG? I imagine more notice would have helped, but is there anything more?
WizO_Keldar 08-19-07, 11:44 PM	To think, you all have actually come this far without turning to fisticuffs. ;) You all have done a good job of extinguishing the "flamey" posts. A post was deleted due to it's gruff "last sentence", and by all rights should/could be deleted again. However, you all have made this a decent discussion again, for the most part, even while addressing that re-posted comment. Please remember to remain courteous. Everyone here is affected by the changes that are happening, but do not get insulting towards fellow patrons and gamers. Thanks.:)
Haro 08-19-07, 11:45 PM	Haro FIRSTLY, I moved to Sydney from Armidale, don't be so damn presumptuous, yourself. no-one played LG in Armidale, and now a lot do. I personally have brought several new gamers to LG myself. I have seen nothing but growth, and yes, do in fact also game with many older players too. I think it is you that are assuming far too much.. Then don't make blanket statements such as "It has seen nothing but growth in Australia, saying it may have dies at some point is pretty inaccurate", if the above is actually what you meant. LG has had plenty of ups and downs in Australia and since you weren't around for much of it it bears me saying so. I think you are exercising the sort of irritating elitism (I wrote a mod in year two therefore I am better than you and only my opinion matters, also because I get the 5 year anecdotes my character is better roleplayed than yours) which is why a lot of players in NSW were disenfranchised with moving back to Perrenland, despite the well written nature of the modules. but that is a sort of moot arguement now isn't it. No need to go down that path. Secondly, I know a lot of organizers who now have to run their yearly cons with the knowledge the campaign is coming to an end. I only brought up my experience because you said "If you have never played it then you don't understand the hundreds of people who write mods, organise conventions and games days, etc who have all been shafted after years of long service." I'm simply pointing out that I am one of those people and I do not in any way feel shafted. That's not elitism, that's making a point of saying that you do not speak for me when you make the above comment. I never said I WAS SPEAKING FOR EVERYONE. You just presumed it.. Here's what you said; "If you haven't played LG, than I suggest you not come here with FR propaganda, as we are going to tell you off. You have no basis of comparison". Emphasis mine. If that's not making a statement on other people's behalf, then I don't know what is! The only thing that stopped me from writing mods is my newness to the game and regional changes. I had to wait till Year 8 to get some mods in, and now have no incentive. So don't act like I chose to do nothing. As you have admitted, you are reasonably new to the game. The issue I have is that you make these outrageous, blanket statements about LG and do not take into account that you've been at this for less than half the campaign's duration. Sydney used to have huge numbers of LG players, now it doesn't. So why belittle someone by saying LG has seen nothing but growth? If you don't know the facts, why make factual statements? Say "in your experience" or something, then others can see that you aren't making comments on behalf of anyone else. Joe
_metz_ 08-20-07, 12:01 AM	Haro, I have only played LG for two and a half years, so yes, I guess I could be considered new. The only reason I haven't written mod is because my region has changed TWICE. I had finally almost finished two for submission for year 8 Ratik when this announcement was made. I may yet hand them in to help send off the region, but they are more general plot arc mods, and I know I would prefer the final mods to wap everything up for the region. For example, I hope we defeat Iggwilv and kill her off in style as an ending to Perrenland. But that is probably hoping for a bit much. But two years is still a pretty big investment quite frankly. I will rephrase my statement, in my experience in NSW, I have seen nothing but growth in LG. I have it on pretty reasonable authority that In Queensland and Victoria, numbers are stable, if not in the positive. As these have always been the major centres in Australia, I would correlate that to growth. WolfStar, I guess the Melodrama was getting a little excessive, I have just had several people telling me not to be ticked off about it, and how good FR is. I put up with it a lot, and merely reacted when I saw you haven't played LG. I apologise for the rashness of my statements, and am glad we both have seen each other's viewpoints.