Veil [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Veil [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tungar
03-26-06, 02:00 PM What happens when a human under a Veil spell, that makes him appear as a Cloud giant, is struck by an opponent ?
Does the character take damage ? Or, is there only a small amount of chance that the opponent, which thinks he is facing a huge giant, strikes at the square where the medium character is ?
redgamer
03-26-06, 03:37 PM If it did it would be more powerful than mass extended displacement, much more powerful. If this spell gave anymiss chance it would have to be higher level. The rules would say miss chance if there was one. In the future ask questions like these in a rules forum such as Living Greyhawk rules.
zigspatty
03-26-06, 03:43 PM What happens when a human under a Veil spell, that makes him appear as a Cloud giant, is struck by an opponent ?
Does the character take damage ? Or, is there only a small amount of chance that the opponent, which thinks he is facing a huge giant, strikes at the square where the medium character is ?

Well, first of all, the opponent gets to make a will save to disbelieve the glamour now that he's interacting with it. But presumably you're smack dab in the middle of the illusory giant so that if your opponent is aiming to skewer a giant with his sword, you're still in that vital middle area at which he'd naturally aim. Barring some sort of "called shot" (a variation not used in LG) or indicator that the opponent is aiming at the upper half of the body, I'd say you're still vulnerable, though as DM I might give you some sort of +2 dodge or concealment bonus. And the illusion probably will not bleed appropriately if the caster has ceased concentration, so he and his allies will get some bonuses to disbelieve.

Of course, if you're trying to carry off the illusion that you're a huge intelligent creature, you're going to have to quite a bit of time explaining your efforts to properly look like a cloud giant. Just as folks would give a moving potted plant a 2nd look, they'll similarly give a giant that looks like it's taking giant steps but is moving only at the 30 foot rate of a mdium creture.

Patty
redgamer
03-26-06, 03:52 PM Your assumptions make sense but why do you feel the need to make up new rules. The spell is appropriately balanced as written. If you are going to make up rules to make a spell work "more realistically" you shouldn't do it a world wide campaign where you are the judge not the DM and there are less realistic spells than Veil.
zigspatty
03-26-06, 10:26 PM It's not a new rule. That +/-2 is a DM's best friend from the core rules, even in an LG game. LG judges are not automatons; they're expected to use good judgement to rule on the various issues that occur in the game. I called it a "dodge bonus", would it make you feel like I was being fairer if I called it a "circumstance bonus"?

Of course, if you're wanting to do more than simply stand around looking like a cloud giant, there are probably all sorts of clues that would tip off an opponent as to your true size long before he's close enough to engage you in combat.

Patty
redgamer
03-27-06, 12:38 AM Of course a judge can apply circumstance modifier. I realy don't like this specefic one. I think most judges make illusions underpowered but a mass hour per level defensive spell just doen't make sense. Nor does +2 to AC based on not actually being in certain squares. A 3x3x3 creature takes up 27 squares. So a medium creature would have to get 95% concealment to account for the size difference. Once in melee the combatants have to be able to reach each other. So unless the PC has 20 foot reach this wouldn't help.
Thinking about it some more, I'd likely have the first bow shot (aimed at the giants torso) miss since you do actually aim for specific square, but this would be considered proof of an illusion of some kind.
Tungar
03-27-06, 03:02 AM I'm sorry, I did not know that there was a LG rule forum, I will post in it, now.

So, I think that you have the same point of view as I have : it seems logical, but to powerfull.

Illusions are hard to DM. Only a single silent image can do too much damage in a fight. For example, what about a character ready with a silent image that cast it when the opponent mage casts a spell, creating a wall in front of him. No more line of sight. A silence can do similar effects, when cast on a wizard that casts a verbal spell.
And what about an illusionary wall of fire casted around a troll, or an animal ? Does it generates fear or effects like that (I can't imagine a troll trying to go trough an illusionnary wall of fire, even if it thinks there is something strange, because of no noise or heat) ?
And the disbeliving rule is not clear, because nothing says when you can disbelieve, and the time it takes.

Tungar, that tries to change the "veil" subject into a "how you use illusions ?".
Madfox11
03-27-06, 03:41 AM If there is no heat, no sound and no smell, it is nothing more then bright light, especially to animals who tend to rely much more on different senses then sight. It might be enough to make a troll hesitate for a few seconds, but nothing more. In my experience, DMs actually make illusion spells TOO powerful. It is a first level spell, so lets not duplicate it anything more powerful then a first level spell.

As for the Veil spell, if you use it to make yourself appear to be huge, and you go into a fight, you are bound to ruin the illusion since you lack the reach and mass of the creature. What is more, if you are "hit", but not hit, I doubt you would act as if you are hit, if you understand what I am saying ;) Note though that I probably would give the first attack a miss chance (if not downright automatic miss), but what happens afterward I don't know. I am not sure whether a displacement that affects multiple targets for 1 hr/lvl should be a 6th level spell... [Better make sure you speak Giant as well - I recently had my PCs in a homecampaign use it to look like demons, but when asked by demons in Abyssal who they were, they could understand one thing.]

Mind you, ultimately it is the DMs pregotive on how to interpret illusion spells. You will not get a Circle's rulling on it.
redgamer
03-27-06, 10:21 AM I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat.
Tungar
03-27-06, 11:11 AM I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat.

I use silent image in combat, but not a lot.
Personnally, like with the silence spell that counters any verbal spell, I never use illusions in a way that seems overpowerful, to avoid a never ending rule discussion during the module.
But silent image is very useful in some cases that no DM can forbid. For example, to raise an illusionary wall between you and the opponent cavaliers which are ready to charge you. Or sometime as decoy, when you think that there is something strange in this room, you can create an illusionary rogue who needs a bit more ranks in hide ;)
solbergb
03-27-06, 12:46 PM Generally an illusory wall gets no table variation. Since obscuring mist can do the same thing, nobody gets into arguments about it, except perhaps the interaction with gaze effects. Enemy spellcasters have an easy spellcraft roll to know it was silent image cast, not wall of stone, but other folks aren't likely to clue in. Spellcasters CAN toss up barriers instantly in the D&D universe, aftera ll.

Illusory decoys are also usually pretty ok (note that major image and above affect ALL senses, including smell, etc, so blindsense, scent etc will still show them as there).

Veil, as a DM they'd have to hit your actual square, and even then I'd disallow precision for sneak attacks and similar effects but I'm not sure that I'd apply a miss chance (you'd be in the part of the body that they're swinging at, probably). After the first interaction with the illusion (in your square or not) they get a save, and again on each attack or counterattack. Pretty soon they'll see through it, and if they can't they'll likely start behaving like you are invisible and act apporpriately.

Veil is more often used in the other direction, making the whole party tiny or whatever. There is no leg to stand on that hide checks wouldn't be affected by this illusion, although concealment/cover rules still apply as a requisite to get the hide check (if your only concealment is 1'high grass, even though your illusion is 1' high, you're going to have some of the size mod removed because the grass around you is pressed down/moving as if you are fill sized)
zigspatty
03-27-06, 08:03 PM Readying to create an illusory wall is a pretty good use of the spell, but not exactly overpowered; casting an obscuring mist or forcing a concentration check with a magic missile would accomplish the same thing with a similarly leveled spell.

In many ways, illusions are far weaker than other spells of their level - as soon as someone interacts with it in some fashion (and that can be something as simple as looking at it with more than a casual glance), they get a save - sometimes multiple saves if they continue to interact. The silent image wall is far easier to defeat than an obscuiring mist because the opponent can simply step through it - and most judges will allow a character to see through it if they make their save. A character can look like a cloud giant, but the illusion will lose a lot of credibility when your huge giant takes only 3 foot strides or when an arrow flies through his chest without damaging him.

Used cleverly, illusions are powerful. In a forest, an illusory tree or bush provides as much concealment as the real thing for your hiding efforts. But it's still just an illusion that will give anyone who interacts with it a will save. The 6th level Veil is fabulous if your group is sneaking into the orc camp looking like orcs, but its utility will be pretty limited if you're disguising yourselves as giants because of the size discrepancies which will allow far more saves to be made - eventually someone will spot the deception.

I don't think that granting a a +2 to AC or some sort of concealment advantage for the one round that the Veil is likely to be useful is overpowered - a 4th level polymorph could allow one player to actually *be* a monster one size category larger.

But expect a lot of variation in how judges deal with illusions. And be prepared to explain exactly how you're using the illusion.

Patty
redgamer
03-27-06, 09:24 PM But silent image is very useful in some cases that no DM can forbid. For example, to raise an illusionary wall between you and the opponent cavaliers which are ready to charge you. Or sometime as decoy, when you think that there is something strange in this room, you can create an illusionary rogue who needs a bit more ranks in hide ;)

Last time I summoned a wall in combat it was to seperate an unconsious character and an ogre. The judge immediately said the ogre knows it is an illusion. The orge didn't have spellcraft.
Madfox11
03-28-06, 08:28 AM I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat.

As a DM and player I hate these kind of ready actions (it makes you wonder why you even would counterspell - silence is lower level and more effective then dispel magic), but in case of an illusionary wall it would not work. Either you do it just before the enemy casts his spell, in which case he can do something else, or he was already casting the spell and he already targetted whatever was behind the wall before you interupted the spell. Since a 1st level illusion does not block line of effect, the spell works.

As for Illusion spells never working in combat, you are forgetting spells such as displacement and blur :P In any event, either you tried stuff that surpassed spells of an equal level or you had really strict DMs. I have seen it work often enough...
Lupo
03-28-06, 10:06 AM I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat.

that is a general dm vs. player problem. when the dm tells the players: "you SEE a giant appear out of the blue", most players will ready for attack, because the dm TELLS that there IS a giant. they don't want to waste time or actions with questions like: "do i smell a giant?", or "do i spot footprints when he runs toward us?"

when a player tells a dm: "i create an illusion of a giant blocking the way of the orcs toward us", strangely enough all of the orcs will get a save vs. illusion.

i have seen this happen over and over again, and a lot of dms are resistant to arguments about this issue. it is just frustrating and one of the things that sorts good dms from the bad.

from time to time it works, but more often i won't.

ciao

martin m.
Tungar
03-28-06, 10:48 AM As a DM and player I hate these kind of ready actions (it makes you wonder why you even would counterspell - silence is lower level and more effective then dispel magic), but in case of an illusionary wall it would not work. Either you do it just before the enemy casts his spell, in which case he can do something else, or he was already casting the spell and he already targetted whatever was behind the wall before you interupted the spell. Since a 1st level illusion does not block line of effect, the spell works.

Originally, yes, because, if I remember well, the player's handbook stated that you have to choose your targets at the beginning of your spellcasting. But the FAQ says, if I always remember well, that you now have to do it at the end, so, if there is a wall, you no more have line of sight.
But, in general, you don't use it against spellcasters, because a single spellcraft check get through the illusion.

when a player tells a dm: "i create an illusion of a giant blocking the way of the orcs toward us", strangely enough all of the orcs will get a save vs. illusion.

I'm ok with you. An illusion is useful to bluff an opponent : "Stop right now, we are to strong for you." but, without the good bluff or intimidate, I can understand the DM : the orcs simply don't believe that the adventurers are powerfull enough to summon such a creature. I think, that, even without having spellcraft ranks, you can know what an illusion is. But, the automatic saves are a bit to much. If I had DMed, I may have considered that the orcs don't trust that you can be so powerfull, but, they would at least draw a bow just to be sure (they are not mad, too). ;)
solbergb
03-28-06, 12:41 PM You remember incorrectly if you think the PHB says you target at the beginning of the spell.

PHB: "You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell."

All Andy did in the FAQ was strengthen the last statement a bit to clarify that they meant "you target at the end of the spellcasting" not "you can choose when to target the spell".

Spells are interruptable. If you remove any of the components they fail. Silence, grapple, zap them with direct damage or block line of effect or in the case of targeted spells, line of sight.

Although in the latter case, the caster is free to pick targets on his side of the wall. Fog spells mess them up more, they're restricted to targets next to them.

As for counterspelling - it just sucks as a tactic sorry. It's right down there with feint (not improved feint, that's useful sometimes) and intimidate in combat as something that you can choose to do, but there is almost never a reason to do it. Most typically it's done by prepared casters who have used up all the useful "sure thing" counterspell options (direct damage, barrier spells, etc) and want to have SOME chance of interfering with the enemy caster.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tungar 03-26-06, 02:00 PM	What happens when a human under a Veil spell, that makes him appear as a Cloud giant, is struck by an opponent ? Does the character take damage ? Or, is there only a small amount of chance that the opponent, which thinks he is facing a huge giant, strikes at the square where the medium character is ?
redgamer 03-26-06, 03:37 PM	If it did it would be more powerful than mass extended displacement, much more powerful. If this spell gave anymiss chance it would have to be higher level. The rules would say miss chance if there was one. In the future ask questions like these in a rules forum such as Living Greyhawk rules.
zigspatty 03-26-06, 03:43 PM	What happens when a human under a Veil spell, that makes him appear as a Cloud giant, is struck by an opponent ? Does the character take damage ? Or, is there only a small amount of chance that the opponent, which thinks he is facing a huge giant, strikes at the square where the medium character is ? Well, first of all, the opponent gets to make a will save to disbelieve the glamour now that he's interacting with it. But presumably you're smack dab in the middle of the illusory giant so that if your opponent is aiming to skewer a giant with his sword, you're still in that vital middle area at which he'd naturally aim. Barring some sort of "called shot" (a variation not used in LG) or indicator that the opponent is aiming at the upper half of the body, I'd say you're still vulnerable, though as DM I might give you some sort of +2 dodge or concealment bonus. And the illusion probably will not bleed appropriately if the caster has ceased concentration, so he and his allies will get some bonuses to disbelieve. Of course, if you're trying to carry off the illusion that you're a huge intelligent creature, you're going to have to quite a bit of time explaining your efforts to properly look like a cloud giant. Just as folks would give a moving potted plant a 2nd look, they'll similarly give a giant that looks like it's taking giant steps but is moving only at the 30 foot rate of a mdium creture. Patty
redgamer 03-26-06, 03:52 PM	Your assumptions make sense but why do you feel the need to make up new rules. The spell is appropriately balanced as written. If you are going to make up rules to make a spell work "more realistically" you shouldn't do it a world wide campaign where you are the judge not the DM and there are less realistic spells than Veil.
zigspatty 03-26-06, 10:26 PM	It's not a new rule. That +/-2 is a DM's best friend from the core rules, even in an LG game. LG judges are not automatons; they're expected to use good judgement to rule on the various issues that occur in the game. I called it a "dodge bonus", would it make you feel like I was being fairer if I called it a "circumstance bonus"? Of course, if you're wanting to do more than simply stand around looking like a cloud giant, there are probably all sorts of clues that would tip off an opponent as to your true size long before he's close enough to engage you in combat. Patty
redgamer 03-27-06, 12:38 AM	Of course a judge can apply circumstance modifier. I realy don't like this specefic one. I think most judges make illusions underpowered but a mass hour per level defensive spell just doen't make sense. Nor does +2 to AC based on not actually being in certain squares. A 3x3x3 creature takes up 27 squares. So a medium creature would have to get 95% concealment to account for the size difference. Once in melee the combatants have to be able to reach each other. So unless the PC has 20 foot reach this wouldn't help. Thinking about it some more, I'd likely have the first bow shot (aimed at the giants torso) miss since you do actually aim for specific square, but this would be considered proof of an illusion of some kind.
Tungar 03-27-06, 03:02 AM	I'm sorry, I did not know that there was a LG rule forum, I will post in it, now. So, I think that you have the same point of view as I have : it seems logical, but to powerfull. Illusions are hard to DM. Only a single silent image can do too much damage in a fight. For example, what about a character ready with a silent image that cast it when the opponent mage casts a spell, creating a wall in front of him. No more line of sight. A silence can do similar effects, when cast on a wizard that casts a verbal spell. And what about an illusionary wall of fire casted around a troll, or an animal ? Does it generates fear or effects like that (I can't imagine a troll trying to go trough an illusionnary wall of fire, even if it thinks there is something strange, because of no noise or heat) ? And the disbeliving rule is not clear, because nothing says when you can disbelieve, and the time it takes. Tungar, that tries to change the "veil" subject into a "how you use illusions ?".
Madfox11 03-27-06, 03:41 AM	If there is no heat, no sound and no smell, it is nothing more then bright light, especially to animals who tend to rely much more on different senses then sight. It might be enough to make a troll hesitate for a few seconds, but nothing more. In my experience, DMs actually make illusion spells TOO powerful. It is a first level spell, so lets not duplicate it anything more powerful then a first level spell. As for the Veil spell, if you use it to make yourself appear to be huge, and you go into a fight, you are bound to ruin the illusion since you lack the reach and mass of the creature. What is more, if you are "hit", but not hit, I doubt you would act as if you are hit, if you understand what I am saying ;) Note though that I probably would give the first attack a miss chance (if not downright automatic miss), but what happens afterward I don't know. I am not sure whether a displacement that affects multiple targets for 1 hr/lvl should be a 6th level spell... [Better make sure you speak Giant as well - I recently had my PCs in a homecampaign use it to look like demons, but when asked by demons in Abyssal who they were, they could understand one thing.] Mind you, ultimately it is the DMs pregotive on how to interpret illusion spells. You will not get a Circle's rulling on it.
redgamer 03-27-06, 10:21 AM	I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat.
Tungar 03-27-06, 11:11 AM	I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat. I use silent image in combat, but not a lot. Personnally, like with the silence spell that counters any verbal spell, I never use illusions in a way that seems overpowerful, to avoid a never ending rule discussion during the module. But silent image is very useful in some cases that no DM can forbid. For example, to raise an illusionary wall between you and the opponent cavaliers which are ready to charge you. Or sometime as decoy, when you think that there is something strange in this room, you can create an illusionary rogue who needs a bit more ranks in hide ;)
solbergb 03-27-06, 12:46 PM	Generally an illusory wall gets no table variation. Since obscuring mist can do the same thing, nobody gets into arguments about it, except perhaps the interaction with gaze effects. Enemy spellcasters have an easy spellcraft roll to know it was silent image cast, not wall of stone, but other folks aren't likely to clue in. Spellcasters CAN toss up barriers instantly in the D&D universe, aftera ll. Illusory decoys are also usually pretty ok (note that major image and above affect ALL senses, including smell, etc, so blindsense, scent etc will still show them as there). Veil, as a DM they'd have to hit your actual square, and even then I'd disallow precision for sneak attacks and similar effects but I'm not sure that I'd apply a miss chance (you'd be in the part of the body that they're swinging at, probably). After the first interaction with the illusion (in your square or not) they get a save, and again on each attack or counterattack. Pretty soon they'll see through it, and if they can't they'll likely start behaving like you are invisible and act apporpriately. Veil is more often used in the other direction, making the whole party tiny or whatever. There is no leg to stand on that hide checks wouldn't be affected by this illusion, although concealment/cover rules still apply as a requisite to get the hide check (if your only concealment is 1'high grass, even though your illusion is 1' high, you're going to have some of the size mod removed because the grass around you is pressed down/moving as if you are fill sized)
zigspatty 03-27-06, 08:03 PM	Readying to create an illusory wall is a pretty good use of the spell, but not exactly overpowered; casting an obscuring mist or forcing a concentration check with a magic missile would accomplish the same thing with a similarly leveled spell. In many ways, illusions are far weaker than other spells of their level - as soon as someone interacts with it in some fashion (and that can be something as simple as looking at it with more than a casual glance), they get a save - sometimes multiple saves if they continue to interact. The silent image wall is far easier to defeat than an obscuiring mist because the opponent can simply step through it - and most judges will allow a character to see through it if they make their save. A character can look like a cloud giant, but the illusion will lose a lot of credibility when your huge giant takes only 3 foot strides or when an arrow flies through his chest without damaging him. Used cleverly, illusions are powerful. In a forest, an illusory tree or bush provides as much concealment as the real thing for your hiding efforts. But it's still just an illusion that will give anyone who interacts with it a will save. The 6th level Veil is fabulous if your group is sneaking into the orc camp looking like orcs, but its utility will be pretty limited if you're disguising yourselves as giants because of the size discrepancies which will allow far more saves to be made - eventually someone will spot the deception. I don't think that granting a a +2 to AC or some sort of concealment advantage for the one round that the Veil is likely to be useful is overpowered - a 4th level polymorph could allow one player to actually be a monster one size category larger. But expect a lot of variation in how judges deal with illusions. And be prepared to explain exactly how you're using the illusion. Patty
redgamer 03-27-06, 09:24 PM	But silent image is very useful in some cases that no DM can forbid. For example, to raise an illusionary wall between you and the opponent cavaliers which are ready to charge you. Or sometime as decoy, when you think that there is something strange in this room, you can create an illusionary rogue who needs a bit more ranks in hide ;) Last time I summoned a wall in combat it was to seperate an unconsious character and an ogre. The judge immediately said the ogre knows it is an illusion. The orge didn't have spellcraft.
Madfox11 03-28-06, 08:28 AM	I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat. As a DM and player I hate these kind of ready actions (it makes you wonder why you even would counterspell - silence is lower level and more effective then dispel magic), but in case of an illusionary wall it would not work. Either you do it just before the enemy casts his spell, in which case he can do something else, or he was already casting the spell and he already targetted whatever was behind the wall before you interupted the spell. Since a 1st level illusion does not block line of effect, the spell works. As for Illusion spells never working in combat, you are forgetting spells such as displacement and blur :P In any event, either you tried stuff that surpassed spells of an equal level or you had really strict DMs. I have seen it work often enough...
Lupo 03-28-06, 10:06 AM	I think readying an illusary wall to waste an enemies action is perfectly reasonable. About as powerful as the grease spell. Unfortunately I've never found a judge who agrees with me. In fact I've never seen an illusion spell besides invis or mirror image work in combat. that is a general dm vs. player problem. when the dm tells the players: "you SEE a giant appear out of the blue", most players will ready for attack, because the dm TELLS that there IS a giant. they don't want to waste time or actions with questions like: "do i smell a giant?", or "do i spot footprints when he runs toward us?" when a player tells a dm: "i create an illusion of a giant blocking the way of the orcs toward us", strangely enough all of the orcs will get a save vs. illusion. i have seen this happen over and over again, and a lot of dms are resistant to arguments about this issue. it is just frustrating and one of the things that sorts good dms from the bad. from time to time it works, but more often i won't. ciao martin m.
Tungar 03-28-06, 10:48 AM	As a DM and player I hate these kind of ready actions (it makes you wonder why you even would counterspell - silence is lower level and more effective then dispel magic), but in case of an illusionary wall it would not work. Either you do it just before the enemy casts his spell, in which case he can do something else, or he was already casting the spell and he already targetted whatever was behind the wall before you interupted the spell. Since a 1st level illusion does not block line of effect, the spell works. Originally, yes, because, if I remember well, the player's handbook stated that you have to choose your targets at the beginning of your spellcasting. But the FAQ says, if I always remember well, that you now have to do it at the end, so, if there is a wall, you no more have line of sight. But, in general, you don't use it against spellcasters, because a single spellcraft check get through the illusion. when a player tells a dm: "i create an illusion of a giant blocking the way of the orcs toward us", strangely enough all of the orcs will get a save vs. illusion. I'm ok with you. An illusion is useful to bluff an opponent : "Stop right now, we are to strong for you." but, without the good bluff or intimidate, I can understand the DM : the orcs simply don't believe that the adventurers are powerfull enough to summon such a creature. I think, that, even without having spellcraft ranks, you can know what an illusion is. But, the automatic saves are a bit to much. If I had DMed, I may have considered that the orcs don't trust that you can be so powerfull, but, they would at least draw a bow just to be sure (they are not mad, too). ;)
solbergb 03-28-06, 12:41 PM	You remember incorrectly if you think the PHB says you target at the beginning of the spell. PHB: "You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell." All Andy did in the FAQ was strengthen the last statement a bit to clarify that they meant "you target at the end of the spellcasting" not "you can choose when to target the spell". Spells are interruptable. If you remove any of the components they fail. Silence, grapple, zap them with direct damage or block line of effect or in the case of targeted spells, line of sight. Although in the latter case, the caster is free to pick targets on his side of the wall. Fog spells mess them up more, they're restricted to targets next to them. As for counterspelling - it just sucks as a tactic sorry. It's right down there with feint (not improved feint, that's useful sometimes) and intimidate in combat as something that you can choose to do, but there is almost never a reason to do it. Most typically it's done by prepared casters who have used up all the useful "sure thing" counterspell options (direct damage, barrier spells, etc) and want to have SOME chance of interfering with the enemy caster.