Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cetiken 03-02-07, 08:47 PM	I'll start by saying that I'm probably preaching to the choir here, and unless you're one of two or three players around here then please feel free to ignore this. When you get ready to make a character pick one or two things (i think two is about the ideal) and do them well. One of those two ought to involve combat in some fashion. Not necessarily defeating every encounter, but turning undead or using enchantments to dominate NPCs or whatever. When you make a character think: will this guy be wiling to join a group of 3-5 other guys and work together. If you don't like other players seriously reconsider the concept. I'm not saying that you have to be everyones friend, but please at least have some reason to join the good fight (and assume that it probably is a somewhat good fight). Sitting down to join a table introducing yourself and your character and the other guy says that his specialty is running away because you can still get full GP and XP makes me want to get up and walk away. As a final note: if you want to make the group face, I say more power to you, but please be willing to take the lead when the mod turns to the talky bits.
MeepoTheMighty 03-02-07, 11:32 PM	As a final note: if you want to make the group face, I say more power to you, but please be willing to take the lead when the mod turns to the talky bits. Amen to that. Nothing irritates me more as a judge or a player than hearing "I diplomacy him....54".
LGMoses 03-03-07, 12:53 AM	Amen to that. Nothing irritates me more as a judge or a player than hearing "I diplomacy him....54". MWA HA HA HA, I shall diplomacize you all! :emp:
Munkwunk 03-03-07, 01:39 AM	at least have some reason to join the good fight (and assume that it probably is a somewhat good fight). Preach on! I understand there are plenty of Chaotic Neutral types out there who adventure for gold, and that's okay. However, it's one thing to ask "What am I getting paid?" and another thing entirely to sit and argue with the NPC for 10 minutes and haggle over price when you know he can't pay you more than the gold cap anyway! Players who argue and haggle over pay for too long really bug me. You've asked about pay once already; we get the point. You're Chaotic Neutral. Can we move on?
Japangirl 03-03-07, 02:01 AM	What if you're a CN worshipper of Kuroth? Can you haggle just a little tiny bit? Pleeease?
Timlagor 03-03-07, 07:57 AM	A Joramite would have to argue over the rewards or they might lose their class abilities :P
UMiskatonic 03-03-07, 10:54 AM	It's not about the haggling, it's about the TEAM. If you haggle to successfully RP your character, than that's great. If you haggle SO much that the rest of the table is irritated/loses play time then you are NOT being a team player, you are taking away from the team. It's easy to see when people are bored. Remember to share the spotlight, and everyone will have a better time.
Reska 03-03-07, 11:01 AM	It's easy to see when people are bored. Remember to share the spotlight, and everyone will have a better time. I'd even go so far to say this includes judges too. Don't always fixate on one person, or speak as if you're only speaking to them. Make everyone involved.
Mattastrophic 03-03-07, 11:23 AM	As a final note: if you want to make the group face, I say more power to you, but please be willing to take the lead when the mod turns to the talky bits. And if you're not the group face, then don't try to be the group face. It's quite annoying to see "Fascinate for the win" become "Horrid Wilting in the surprise round." -Matt was glad that jerk took a Finger of Death.
gomeztoo 03-03-07, 11:38 AM	A Joramite would have to argue over the rewards or they might lose their class abilities :P A Joramite might argue about whether we shouldn't work for the opposition instead. In plain view of the employer. In a loud voice. Or, at least, mention that those othher guys aren't THAT bad. I loved aggraviting Karistyne by correcting her use of 'Rary the Traitor' with "Oh, you mean Rary the Emperor." Not that my druidess likes Rary. She just dislikes Karistyne too ;) One note: it is easy to get carried away when roleplaying a PC's 'shtick'. But the opposite are PCs who hardly ever participate in roleplaying at all. And I'm not talking about the brooding silent types, but PCs that just don't do anything but wait until the combat starts. You can reign in a player that tales too much spotlight. It's much harder to motivate a player that just sits there waiting to roll dice.
Loignar 03-03-07, 11:57 AM	You can reign in a player that tales too much spotlight. It's much harder to motivate a player that just sits there waiting to roll dice. I don't much see why you would want to 'motivate' them to RP if they don't want to. The game offers different things for everyone and if someone enjoys themselves without the using any RP aspects, why should you try to make them. That just sounds selfish to me. There is a big difference between being a team player and playing the game the way someone else wants you to play.
Munkwunk 03-03-07, 02:37 PM	If you haggle to successfully RP your character, than that's great. If you haggle SO much that the rest of the table is irritated/loses play time then you are NOT being a team player, you are taking away from the team. Bingo. It's one thing to haggle a bit to get int o character and show everyone just hwo Chaotic Neutral you might be. It's another thing entirely to push the issue when you know for a fact that you're only going to get so much of a reward in this LG campaign setting. When that starts to take away too much from table time, it needs to stop. As a DM, I would be tempted to say "I'll pay you as much of a reward as the gold cap allows." It may completely destroy the suspension of disbelief and seem really lame, but if it gets the game moving along to matters of actual importance, then so be it.
bhale187 03-03-07, 03:59 PM	While I generally try to make a point of avoiding metagaming I did run into a similiar situation at a recent con. We had a player go into an elaborate scheme about how he was going to pack up, and haul back large spools of silver wire. About 10 minutes into the player and DM going back and forth about why his plans would or would not work I finally interrupted. "Dude, it's Greyhawk and we are at a con, we don't have time for this" I usually enjoy good RP, even the face and the NPC haggling when you know it will not effect the end reward. However, there certainly is a point when it goes too far.
gomeztoo 03-03-07, 04:16 PM	I don't much see why you would want to 'motivate' them to RP if they don't want to. There's not much point, no. But I may not enjoy playing with such players any more than they enjoy playing with me. The thing is that they do expect me to adjust to them, and skip to the combat. Apparently, that is fine?
Sieylianna 03-03-07, 05:47 PM	And if you're not the group face, then don't try to be the group face. It's quite annoying to see "Fascinate for the win" become "Horrid Wilting in the surprise round." Agreed. I've run into this repeatedly at cons, particularly if the room is noisy and someone seated next to the DM says something. Ed
Redfist 03-03-07, 05:59 PM	Agreed. I've run into this repeatedly at cons You have to admit though, by far the #1 player/judge fault at conventions by a WIDE MARGIN is stink. I fail to understand how on the first slot of the first day, someone already has nasty body odor. HOW???? WHY!!!???!? :weep:
Munkwunk 03-03-07, 07:01 PM	Well hopefully now that players can't Alter Self: Troglodyte, that won't be as much of an issue. :P
LGMoses 03-03-07, 11:27 PM	You've asked about pay once already; we get the point. You're Chaotic Neutral. Can we move on? What I want to know is where are the paladins turning down the pay? I haven't seen/heard of a paladin turning down pay in a situation yet I don't think. Isn't a good deed its own reward? ;)
LGMoses 03-03-07, 11:29 PM	I work in a public service capacity dealing with the common folk and let me tell you. 1/7 people stink ALWAYS due to poor personal hygiene habits.
Timlagor 03-04-07, 10:11 AM	What I want to know is where are the paladins turning down the pay? I haven't seen/heard of a paladin turning down pay in a situation yet I don't think. Isn't a good deed its own reward? ;) Well if the patron is rich enough then you can take the money and put it to good use or donate it to a god cause. I have had one paladin try to refuse a payment and get shouted down by other PCs. I've also seen pay negotiations going on behind the paladin's back :)
Sieylianna 03-04-07, 11:09 AM	You have to admit though, by far the #1 player/judge fault at conventions by a WIDE MARGIN is stink. I fail to understand how on the first slot of the first day, someone already has nasty body odor. HOW???? WHY!!!???!? :weep: I was at Origins a few years ago and there were people that I could already smell in the line to pick up pre-reg materials the day before the con started. Ed
gomeztoo 03-04-07, 11:21 AM	What I want to know is where are the paladins turning down the pay? Heh. My char is no paladin, but last game, one of the PCs asked what the pay was. The NPC said "50 gp". My PC commented "That's a lot to go on an adventure.", then rpoceeded to empty her pockets and shove 50 gp in coins and gems towards the employer. "That enough?" In the end the emnploer refused the money, but it was fun to see the expression on the other players' faces ;)
Britt 03-04-07, 01:09 PM	I was at Origins a few years ago and there were people that I could already smell in the line to pick up pre-reg materials the day before the con started. Ed That was the case at DDXP this year as well.
Gaelforcwynd 03-04-07, 04:15 PM	You have to admit though, by far the #1 player/judge fault at conventions by a WIDE MARGIN is stink. I fail to understand how on the first slot of the first day, someone already has nasty body odor. HOW???? WHY!!!???!? :weep: In Perth, Western Australia, the main RPG shop is called 'Tactics' and is a series of rooms in a basement of an arcade in the city. On Friday after work, I went in to buy some splat books and I had to pass through a room full of about 30 Magic players to get to the store area. They consisted of a bunch of mainly fat, pimply, dopey looking males, aged between 16-30. Boy that room stank. I had to hold my breath as I passed through the cheesy stench of it. Lucky I had a knife, to cut my way out of that stink with. Gagging on my own vomit, I was starting to hallucinate before I could get through it. I don't know what's wrong with these people, but I'm starting to think that having a shower and wearing deodorant should be part of the RPGA rules.
Mad Monkey 03-04-07, 05:40 PM	Heh. My char is no paladin, but last game, one of the PCs asked what the pay was. The NPC said "50 gp". My PC commented "That's a lot to go on an adventure.", then rpoceeded to empty her pockets and shove 50 gp in coins and gems towards the employer. "That enough?" In the end the emnploer refused the money, but it was fun to see the expression on the other players' faces ;) Yeah, because you should have given that money to me, the greedy, chaotic neutral dwarf at that table. ;) I always try to at least mention the fact that my dwarf does not work out of the good of his heart and wants decent payment. But he has learned that sometimes it is better to settle for less upfront, because other rewards may end up more valuable.
Puggle Halfwine 03-04-07, 05:50 PM	I don't know what's wrong with these people, but I'm starting to think that having a shower and wearing deodorant should be part of the RPGA rules. I completely support this motion, due to my experiences at a number of cons all over Australia. It's not really that hard. The con goes for four days. This means you must have four showers, pack four sets of **CLEAN** clothes, one can of deoderant. I know some people have odor problems and can't really help it, but doing all of the above WILL minimize the effects of body odor. And also: If you think nobody will notice, they will. They will.
solbergb 03-05-07, 12:53 PM	Yeah, when you are thinking about your new character, one thing you should consider is: "Is this guy a tool?" If he is, consider strongly another concept. If you DO have "non-jerk" tendencies to take time/spotlight with a character concept (eg, I have two characters that scout, and one who sometimes does overly complex stuff with her spells) you have to as a player pay attention to the pacing of the game and the DM's stress levels and not introduce complexity when the party is already behind. You also need to quietly drop stuff that takes too long to explain when you're away from homegames with no hard stop. Scouting can be really easy and give a lot of benefit. It generally involves finding the take 10 move silent of the other party members, and spacing the party so that the best scout is in front, and distance mods make up for less stealthy members. The front guy needs a good hide skill too, and good alertness skills. This is easy to explain, lay out with miniatures and can turn encoutners intoa contest between the spot+listen+hide+move silent of the party's best scout vs that of the would-be ambushers...with the whole party able to support very quickly. This approch can often lead to turning the surprise tables on encounters or even allowing prebuffing if the party backs off a bit to cover spellcasting sounds. The lead scout needs to be either reasonably durable or able to take a suprise round and disengage for the rare cases where his talents are defeated by even more stealthy enemies.
gomeztoo 03-05-07, 01:10 PM	Yeah, because you should have given that money to me, the greedy, chaotic neutral dwarf at that table. ;) Well, at least one PC made a grab for the money I put on the table...
ithardin 03-05-07, 01:18 PM	I applaud anyone who strives to come up with unique, interesting, etc. character concepts and seeks to RP the same with vigor, BUT This is a MULTI-PLAYER game and I think it is important to take that into consideration. Sure, have your Zilchan try to sell the person we have been trying to escort to some slavers, etc. Just don't be surprised if you get sapped, tied up and laid in the back of the wagon by the rest of the PCs until you can behave yourself. A good test is to ask yourself the following question: Q: When I RP my schtick are the other six people at the table smiling and playing along OR are they rolling their eyes, looking away in annoyance or getting up to go to the bathroom, etc without announcing an ETA? Interestingly enough, the most enjoyable times I have ever had gaming have been where there was the best and most cohesive team work (even when there was initial party disagreement as to what to do or how to do it).
CrystalBlue 03-05-07, 01:21 PM	Meh...I get the guys that come into the table that know everything about the game, but then turn around and not understand team play. We get to a point in the mod where it's obvious we're working for someone that is at least slightly evil. So we convince the party that it's better to just do the mission and try to worry about the evil later. Even the paladin agreed to that. However on player refused to agree. He said we should just kill said NPC right there and be done with it. Never mind the evil NPC was stated to be 5 levels above the max APL. With minions. So while we actually do the adventure, this character sits out all the time, makes bad remarks about my PC and my playing in general, and was a total ass. And, to top it all off, the DM gave this player full gold and experience AND items that we didn't even have a chance to search for. >.< And the four of us that did go in and kill everything got hosed on access. Yes, I will never be playing or DMing with that player again...can not stand him...
Lomiat 03-05-07, 03:43 PM	Meh...I get the guys that come into the table that know everything about the game, but then turn around and not understand team play. We get to a point in the mod where it's obvious we're working for someone that is at least slightly evil. So we convince the party that it's better to just do the mission and try to worry about the evil later. Even the paladin agreed to that. However on player refused to agree. He said we should just kill said NPC right there and be done with it. Never mind the evil NPC was stated to be 5 levels above the max APL. With minions. So while we actually do the adventure, this character sits out all the time, makes bad remarks about my PC and my playing in general, and was a total ass. And, to top it all off, the DM gave this player full gold and experience AND items that we didn't even have a chance to search for. >.< And the four of us that did go in and kill everything got hosed on access. Yes, I will never be playing or DMing with that player again...can not stand him... Well, there's understanding team play, and there's roleplaying your character to decide whether or not you will willingly work for a character that is known to be evil. There's also the matter of deciding whether or not you know--in character--if a villain is 5 levels above the max APL. I mean, in character, what is a "level" or "APL"? Nonetheless, since this "player" seems to fit my description, I don't recall making any disparaging remarks about your character or your roleplaying. And I ultimately did go with the party and contribute. I would have gone with the party earlier, except that I wasn't the only player still debating the pros and cons of attacking the NPC in question. While the issue was still undecided, I was merely upholding my viewpoint. Isn't that a fair thing to do? Then... for XP... what more would you have wanted from my PC than to prevent the X amount of electrical damage that you might have otherwise taken had my PC and one other not prepared and cast several Protection from Energy (Electricity) spells? After my PC had cast those spells, he had scant few resources left to him. Then, after all that was resolved, how did it matter if I sat at the table or walked over and talked to another of my friends in the room? I could, perhaps, have better "roleplayed" my PC's decision to stay outside of the dungeon in question, but seriously... At any rate, while I appreciate that this thread was originated with good intents, there's been a distinctly spiteful tone to it from the onset, and that's unfortunate. If you (general use of "you," not specifically CrystalBlue) really have an issue with someone at a table, isn't it better to say something polite then and there about your frustrations than to come onto a web forum and vent? I've played highly cooperative characters and characters who have selfish agendas. I sit down at a table planning to play an adventure and to roleplay my character. Those are two separate goals. If someone says to me that he or she feels my roleplaying of my character is proving a detriment to the table's fun, I can work with that person. If that person says nothing to me, then walks away from the table frustrated with my play, I can't help that person. The session's over, and if that person mistakes my roleplay of my character with me, as a player, then that's another error I can't correct. It's also somewhat worthwhile to note the issues behind the concerns presented in this thread so far. As best as I can tell, they have been: real-world time constraints, AR rewards, and personal hygiene. This thread seems to be predicated on the premise that the shared goal of a group of people sitting down to a session of Living Greyhawk is to complete some sort of a quest in a timely fashion to get whatever rewards exist on an AR (while sitting with a group of people who don't smell bad). It's just an observation, but it's an interesting definition of the goal of a Living Greyhawk session.
Mattastrophic 03-05-07, 04:27 PM	It's just an observation, but it's an interesting definition of the goal of a Living Greyhawk session. I don't know about you guys, but my own goal is to rock the combats as fast as possible so I can roleplay as much as I can. -Matt
Lomiat 03-05-07, 04:41 PM	I don't know about you guys, but my own goal is to rock the combats as fast as possible so I can roleplay as much as I can. -Matt That's not a bad goal. ;)
mlund 03-05-07, 05:23 PM	There's also the matter of deciding whether or not you know--in character--if a villain is 5 levels above the max APL. I mean, in character, what is a "level" or "APL"? I can think of at least one COR module that might still be circulating that fits this billing. You'd know, very clearly, that this guy is too tall to tangle with. He's an infamous Epic Level character from before the Greyhawk Wars. The DC on a knowledge check about him to get that much information would be almost automatic. Still, that doesn't mean that his particular request in this adventure is wicked or dishonorable. Evil characters often desire particular individual instances of Good in which they also stand to benefit along with decent folks. - Marty Lund
Gallaway 03-05-07, 07:39 PM	then there are the people whose version of being a team player is "I am good at telling everyone what to do (as if they were cohorts) and if the team follow my instructions to the letter we always win"
copper_wyrmling 03-05-07, 08:28 PM	then there are the people whose version of being a team player is "I am good at telling everyone what to do (as if they were cohorts) and if the team follow my instructions to the letter we always win" Or a certain variant of this: "Because I am the fighter, everyone else should spend all their actions on buffing and healing my character. On the first round, I will charge 100ft away from the party to enter melee, and then tell the cleric and wizard that they're pathetic because they don't have the ability to move 100ft and still buff / heal me. I will take APLx10 damage / round because my AC is pathetic and I have this habit of charging into packs of melee monsters with nasty full attacks, and I will then accuse the cleric of being "selfish" if they refuse to take AoOs to heal me, or if they express reluctance to burn their two biggest healing spells in the first two rounds of the first combat. I will accuse the wizard of being "selfish" if their actions for the first three rounds include any spell that is not a buff for my character. After the combat is over, I will spend at least half an hour bragging about how much damage my character did and how generally amazing they are, insist that the rest of the party tell me that they're very grateful to have my character in the party, and mock everyone else's characters and call them useless because they didn't do as much damage as mine." Sorry. Venting just a little, there. That's basically what this thread is about, though, right? ;) (To be clear, the majority of BDFs I've met are not like this, and they seem to get even rarer at higher levels and among more experienced players, but geez, they're memorable when they turn up... when playing my dervish, I try quite hard not to take buffs from other PCs for granted, and to thank them in-character, especially if it was an in-combat buff or cure and they could've used the action to do something else.)
Japangirl 03-05-07, 10:36 PM	(To be clear, the majority of BDFs I've met are not like this, and they seem to get even rarer at higher levels and among more experienced players, but geez, they're memorable when they turn up... when playing my dervish, I try quite hard not to take buffs from other PCs for granted, and to thank them in-character, especially if it was an in-combat buff or cure and they could've used the action to do something else.) I completely agree with this. While rogues love buffs (Greater Invis yes please), I do not take them for granted. I've probably annoyed our local wizard plenty by asking for them, but I'm also not being sarcastic when I say he has better things to do with his actions. He is an evoker with lots of blastiness racked all the time, and he should blow things up before he even thinks about buffing me. On the other hand, the 10th level mystic theurge who kept giving me Greater Invisibilities yesterday gets lots of hugs from an excitable little halfling every time she sees him . . . which might explain why the wizard doesn't give her any ;).
Samwise 03-06-07, 12:49 AM	As opposed to the converse of the selfish BDF, the cleric who insists on attacking for 3-10 damage, or the wizard who prefers casting fly on himself so he can avoid any damage from the single, landbound, creature that will be tearing up the BDF?
copper_wyrmling 03-06-07, 01:31 AM	As opposed to the converse of the selfish BDF, the cleric who insists on attacking for 3-10 damage, or the wizard who prefers casting fly on himself so he can avoid any damage from the single, landbound, creature that will be tearing up the BDF? Yes, those are also very annoying, although I'd rather have that cleric on my table than a weapon-finessing light fighter doing the same thing (at least the cleric can probably be persuaded to heal out-of-combat) ;) All are good examples of not acting as team players - although if you're at APL 2, the cleric attacking for 3-10 damage is probably actually a decent idea. I just mentioned the BDFs who think the sole role of the rest of the party is to help them shine because in my personal experience, they've been much more common than wizards who spend all their time casting defensive spells, or clerics who insist on trying to be fighters when they don't have the spells, items, feats and stats to make it work. This may be linked to the fact that in my original area, for a couple of years my cleric was the ONLY regularly-played cleric above about APL 4 (at least one of the guys with a higher-level cleric, who didn't play regularly, expressed an interest in playing more games IF my cleric was on the table, so that, in his words, "I'd get a chance to do something other than heal the fighters"). From your posts in another thread, I suspect your experiences have been rather different - regional variation ;) For most of my time in LG, all the wizards I'd played with were played VERY smart: more recently, though, I've seen some examples of wizards who use CL1 wands of Magic Missile as their primary offence at APL 6 (and not just for finishing off badly wounded monsters: these are guys who could be casting haste / fireball / glitterdust/ web, but aren't), and who only know the spells that they gained from levelling, because they consider it too expensive to buy scrolls for their spellbooks. I'm pretty sure any class can be played really badly, I've just seen it more often in melee types. EDIT: Also... your response is actually a bit off-topic relative to the problem I was discussing. I'd rather have an incompetently played or poorly built character on my table (the wannabe melee cleric and "don't-let-them-near-me" wizard in your examples) than someone like the BDF players I mentioned, who may have strong characters, but try to coerce the other players to act in a way that will maximize the offending player's fun at the expense of everyone else. I can generally cope with a character who might as well not be there: I have much bigger issues with people who try to force other players to take particular actions through out-of-character pressure, and I've seen that behaviour most frequently in the context that I described in my earlier post.
Gallaway 03-06-07, 01:55 AM	EDIT: Also... your response is actually a bit off-topic relative to the problem I was discussing. I'd rather have an incompetently played or poorly built character on my table (the wannabe melee cleric and "don't-let-them-near-me" wizard in your examples) than someone like the BDF players I mentioned, who may have strong characters, but try to coerce the other players to act in a way that will maximize the offending player's fun at the expense of everyone else. I can generally cope with a character who might as well not be there: I have much bigger issues with people who try to force other players to take particular actions through out-of-character pressure, and I've seen that behaviour most frequently in the context that I described in my earlier post. Yep, after all its only tactically SENSIBLE, now that you already have your songs running to buff me, that you run your low HP bard into combat taking multiple AoO to give me a flank because THEN I can full power attack and cleave and kill all the BBEG's (being such a great player that I am) and it's perfectly safe because I will get to go before they get another swing at you, and if you do die, your only a bard, so its not a big loss and we can raise you anyway.
Samwise 03-06-07, 01:57 AM	Yes, those are also very annoying, although I'd rather have that cleric on my table than a weapon-finessing light fighter doing the same thing (at least the cleric can probably be persuaded to heal out-of-combat) ;) All are good examples of not acting as team players - although if you're at APL 2, the cleric attacking for 3-10 damage is probably actually a decent idea. If the BDF is doing 100 points of damage, it's not an APL 2 table. And if I want that cleric alive to heal, I'd prefer him behind the BDF, not next to him. From your posts in another thread, I suspect your experiences have been rather different - regional variation ;) Yep, pretty much. Not that we haven't wound up with a shortage of clerics, but part of that was due to people expecting the clerics to be the only ones buying happy sticks. For most of my time in LG, all the wizards I'd played with were played VERY smart: more recently, though, I've seen some examples of wizards who use CL1 wands of Magic Missile as their primary offence at APL 6 (and not just for finishing off badly wounded monsters: these are guys who could be casting haste / fireball / glitterdust/ web, but aren't), and who only know the spells that they gained from levelling, because they consider it too expensive to buy scrolls for their spellbooks. I'm pretty sure any class can be played really badly, I've just seen it more often in melee types. That's why the first wand I made after hitting 5th level the second time was magic missile, CL 5th, and why another at 7th and 9th will be following when I hit those levels. I've managed on found spellbooks so far, but was going to have to bite the bullet until another wizard showed up to trade with at long last. The 1,100 gp to copy was harsh, but it came right before I had to bite the bullet and drop 1,075 for scrolls for them as well. A BBB just hit the top of my priorities list. But I'm a wizard. My "gear" includes the number of spells in my spellbook. If I expected to manage on just my spells from leveling, I'd have played a sorcerer.
Samwise 03-06-07, 02:02 AM	Yep, after all its only tactically SENSIBLE, now that you already have your songs running to buff me, that you run your low HP bard into combat taking multiple AoO to give me a flank because THEN I can full power attack and cleave and kill all the BBEG's (being such a great player that I am) and it's perfectly safe because I will get to go before they get another swing at you, and if you do die, your only a bard, so its not a big loss and we can raise you anyway. Actually, that's what my badgers are for. Flanks for everybody! And blockers if you don't outrun me.
ithardin 03-06-07, 01:42 PM	I am learning more and more as I play my cleric who is the primary healer/buffer of a group of affiliated PCs. I haven't made an attack roll (other then casting a healing spell on undead and spiritual weapon castings) in several mods-and my companions wouldn't have it any other way. It has taken some getting used to, standing in the second rank and healing/blessing/etc., but I have enjoyed the feeling that working as a team has brought. teamwork = good
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 02:37 PM	teamwork = good One of the most important discoveries I made went something like this: "I'm going to be in a Battle Interactive this weekend. My buddy plays an archer. Instead of preparing Fireball, if I instead prepare Flame Arrow, that Flame Arrow will end up doing WAY more damage than any of my Fireballs." When you can learn to not always kill stuff and instead help other people do what they're good at, the whole team benefits. For example, Insignia of Healing > Searing Light. You don't get to do any damage, but the rest of the party will love you in the end. And by the way, respect bards and their players. They've made a lot of sacrifices to help you out. -Matt loves bard players; they're often the best for not stepping on the party's toes.
ithardin 03-06-07, 04:42 PM	And nothing says "teamwork" like handing off the bevy of crafted items you've made to those members of the party who can't afford to pay full retail and will get better use out of them then a healing cleric :) I also can't wait to have my marble sack full of pearls of power!
TallGuy 03-06-07, 04:43 PM	One of the most important discoveries I made went something like this: "I'm going to be in a Battle Interactive this weekend. My buddy plays an archer. Instead of preparing Fireball, if I instead prepare Flame Arrow, that Flame Arrow will end up doing WAY more damage than any of my Fireballs." When you can learn to not always kill stuff and instead help other people do what they're good at, the whole team benefits. For example, Insignia of Healing > Searing Light. You don't get to do any damage, but the rest of the party will love you in the end. And by the way, respect bards and their players. They've made a lot of sacrifices to help you out. -Matt loves bard players; they're often the best for not stepping on the party's toes. It depends. I've got a L13 wizard type, and every time I do more than prep a couple of buffs, the table ends up hurting. While I don't mind casting some long lasting buffs (and I've got extend), I'm not wasting an action on a buff if I can help it. Usually a well placed flesh to stone, disintegrate, or even a phantasmal killer on the right target. Ending combats is better, in my book. I'll usually cast a mass fly when needed, or a haste if the need is there. But otherwise I'm busy disabling or de-buffing the enemy. That's (IMHO) a better use for my action. Bas Vermeulen
kenobi65 03-06-07, 04:46 PM	although if you're at APL 2, the cleric attacking for 3-10 damage is probably actually a decent idea. At APL 2, a cleric doing 3-10 damage is likely not significantly less effective than your front-line fighter. However, at APL 2, it's more likely that your cleric is back there doing 2-7, with a +2 melee attack bonus...
Drezden 03-06-07, 05:20 PM	I normally agree with you, but sometimes the right buff/support spell is essential and a better option than a straight offensive one. It is important as a wizard to be able to adapt to this. Copper Wyrmling, Mattastrophic and I just played a Core Special at APL16. We had 3 15th level wizards at the table - Matt, myself and a 3rd wizard. The 3rd Wizard had a 32 Int. and relied on casting a lot of Save or die. spells. Yet, I don't think a single critter failed one of his saves the entire special. At the highest APLs - especially in interactives and Core Specials - it is much, much harder to take out NPCs with 1 spell - they can have excellent saves and just boatloads of hit points. In some of those situations, it is better to displace or fires of purity (preferably changed to sonic :) ) the BDF so that he doesn't get ripped to shreds by the Melee Monsters hitting at +50. I am a big believer in offensive actions for a wizard. However, I often find some of the utility spells - like Mass Fly, Antimagic Field, True Seeing - are the most important contribution that I bring to the table. Daren It depends. I've got a L13 wizard type, and every time I do more than prep a couple of buffs, the table ends up hurting. While I don't mind casting some long lasting buffs (and I've got extend), I'm not wasting an action on a buff if I can help it. Usually a well placed flesh to stone, disintegrate, or even a phantasmal killer on the right target. Ending combats is better, in my book. I'll usually cast a mass fly when needed, or a haste if the need is there. But otherwise I'm busy disabling or de-buffing the enemy. That's (IMHO) a better use for my action. Bas Vermeulen
UMiskatonic 03-06-07, 07:08 PM	I'm not wasting an action on a buff if I can help it. If you're buffing people DURING the fight, you've already missed your window. I agree, time is your most precious resource, and you simply CAN'T waste rounds and expect to do well. Buffs, in my opinion, are something you should already have planned out or activated. My high level cleric will usually start a mod by handing out ghost oil and insignia of healing, casting a divination perhaps if it's needed, and handing out spells like magic vestment and greater magic weapon and heroes' feast which last for hours. If we think a fight is imminent, that's when the 10 min/level spells go into effect. Plus, a reminder that many encounters can be solved with diplomacy, which I happen to be VERY good at. Then, and only then, do we open the door. From there, it's an ad hoc response. Monsters that force saves will be countered with mass conviction, enemy spellcasters get silenced, etc.
copper_wyrmling 03-06-07, 08:45 PM	It depends. I've got a L13 wizard type, and every time I do more than prep a couple of buffs, the table ends up hurting. While I don't mind casting some long lasting buffs (and I've got extend), I'm not wasting an action on a buff if I can help it. Usually a well placed flesh to stone, disintegrate, or even a phantasmal killer on the right target. Ending combats is better, in my book. I'll usually cast a mass fly when needed, or a haste if the need is there. But otherwise I'm busy disabling or de-buffing the enemy. That's (IMHO) a better use for my action. Bas Vermeulen *nods* For my sorcerer, it's often a sculpted evards if the bad guys are medium or smaller, sculpted glitterdust if there are hiding or invisible foes, empowered ray of enfeeblement on melees or enervation on an enemy caster (I'm looking forward to trying out split ray enervation and split ray empowered ray of enfeeblement), readied spiritwall to block line of sight / line of effect and force fear saves... and so on. Buffs are for before combat. Direct damage is usually for when (a) the battlefield is arranged to the party's liking, or (b) all her battlefield control and debuff spells are likely to be ineffective, and we just need to kill it quick. She doesn't really use defensive spells, except false life (and phantom steed / fly / teleport to grant mobility). Copper Wyrmling, Mattastrophic and I just played a Core Special at APL16. We had 3 15th level wizards at the table - Matt, myself and a 3rd wizard. The 3rd Wizard had a 32 Int. and relied on casting a lot of Save or die. spells. Yet, I don't think a single critter failed one of his saves the entire special. I thought he got one of the mooks in the last encounter we fought... but yeah, that was a nasty example of how useless save-or-die spells can be when everything makes their saves. My high level cleric will usually start a mod by handing out ghost oil and insignia of healing, casting a divination perhaps if it's needed, and handing out spells like magic vestment and greater magic weapon and heroes' feast which last for hours. If we think a fight is imminent, that's when the 10 min/level spells go into effect. Plus, a reminder that many encounters can be solved with diplomacy, which I happen to be VERY good at. Then, and only then, do we open the door. From there, it's an ad hoc response. Monsters that force saves will be countered with mass conviction, enemy spellcasters get silenced, etc. Given that you're talking to Bas, I think you're preaching to the choir here (I know the people he normally plays with) ;) But yes, I agree with what you're saying. My cleric has recently been taking advantage of the bags of L1 pearls that everyone seems to carry at APL 16 to keep extended Shields of Faith running on the frontliners for hours at a time - minutes / level is quite a long time at CL16, especially if you have a few cheap lesser rods of extend. If you're lucky enough to have a full Extend rod, then Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon and Heroes' Feast can all safely be cast the night before a dungeon-crawl, freeing slots for the next day; anybody can do this with Energy Immunity, and a high enough caster level (20+) can also make the rod of extend unnecessary for the hours / level spells. Stalwart Pact, Zealot Pact and Contingency can be cast at the start of the module; this is also when rings of counterspells should be loaded. Extended 10 minutes / level spells now last five and a half hours, for my cleric, so Freedom of Movement, the holly berry bombs version of Fire Seeds, Air Walk, etc can all be precast at the start of a dungeon-crawl. (Some day, a big lumbering low-Reflex-save monster will grapple my cleric because she put Freedom of Movement on somebody else, and then it will learn that Fire Seeds is a wonderful spell, and Energy Immunity (Fire) is a wonderful spell, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts...) Even rounds / level buffs don't necessarily have to be cast in-combat. I've become quite adept at guessing when combats are impending, with my sorcerer: she tends to Haste the party whenever it looks like a fight might be coming up, and I'd estimate that only about 1/3 combats surprise her (she also has some false positives, but eh, she has L3 spells to burn).
Gaelforcwynd 03-07-07, 09:08 AM	At APL 2, a cleric doing 3-10 damage is likely not significantly less effective than your front-line fighter. However, at APL 2, it's more likely that your cleric is back there doing 2-7, with a +2 melee attack bonus... The 1st level Cleric I will be starting on Sunday will wield a greatsword and be hitting at +3 and dealing +3 damage, for a damage range of 5-15. I don't think even the martial classes or 2nd level players in our party do that. :D
bhale187 03-07-07, 09:37 AM	I also have a Cleric 1 that unbuffed has +6 to hit and +7 dmg with a Grt Sword for 9-19 dmg, but Kenobi was getting at the fact that those are a rarity, the average Cleric in LG is going to have about 12 maybe 14 STR and swinging a d6 or maybe d8 weapon.
Drezden 03-07-07, 10:37 AM	Let's hope that this big lumbering monster is not a Fire Giant or a Fire Elemental. :) Daren [snip] (Some day, a big lumbering low-Reflex-save monster will grapple my cleric because she put Freedom of Movement on somebody else, and then it will learn that Fire Seeds is a wonderful spell, and Energy Immunity (Fire) is a wonderful spell, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts...) [snip]
TallGuy 03-07-07, 02:27 PM	I normally agree with you, but sometimes the right buff/support spell is essential and a better option than a straight offensive one. It is important as a wizard to be able to adapt to this. Right. First, let me describe what I usually play with. My wizard is part of a two grey elf tag-team, both with maxed out intelligence. Mine makes good use of her Oracle domain by casting Divination, Commune or other such stuff to hotwire the investigation. Usually, that puts us in the right ballpark. I've got extend, and the buffs I cast on others (Greater Mage Armor and other hour/level buffs) are usually cast in the morning. I don't sweat the lower level slots (1-4 usually), and neither does my character's twin. When we have a frontliner, there's usually a acid substituted fires of purity in a sixth(?) level slot. If needed/useful, a stoneskin will be present. The REST of the slots, will be filled with save or die/enchantment/debuff spells. Now, when those get cast, I try to fit the right spells to the opponent. When I see a caster (and arcane casters are more vulnerable), that's a prime target for Feeblemind. My twin usually favors stuff like Flesh to Stone, and other save or die spells. Now, she also has 4 fatespinner levels, so the DC is around 30 when she wants it to, and IF they make the save, they can try again. Then again, that's not usually/always needed. Copper Wyrmling, Mattastrophic and I just played a Core Special at APL16. We had 3 15th level wizards at the table - Matt, myself and a 3rd wizard. The 3rd Wizard had a 32 Int. and relied on casting a lot of Save or die. spells. Yet, I don't think a single critter failed one of his saves the entire special. At the highest APLs - especially in interactives and Core Specials - it is much, much harder to take out NPCs with 1 spell - they can have excellent saves and just boatloads of hit points. In some of those situations, it is better to displace or fires of purity (preferably changed to sonic :) ) the BDF so that he doesn't get ripped to shreds by the Melee Monsters hitting at +50. I am a big believer in offensive actions for a wizard. However, I often find some of the utility spells - like Mass Fly, Antimagic Field, True Seeing - are the most important contribution that I bring to the table. I played the same special last weekend; Mass Fly was up most of the time, True Seeing was up, and after the first round those +50 hitting melee monsters were blind. The other one was stooopid 'cause of a failed save vs feeblemind. The next round the melee monsters were slowed, and seeing how the stuff that made the melee monsters go really dangerous didn't get off, we did fine ;) This was APL14 with two level 13 clerics, two level 13 wizzies (me and my wife), a level 15 wizard and a level 14 melee/archer build. We had a rough (time consuming) time in the first three encounters, but after that we did fine. We did succeed, but didn't complete the whole dungeon. Good enough for me ;) Bas Vermeulen
copper_wyrmling 03-07-07, 02:47 PM	I played the same special last weekend; Mass Fly was up most of the time, True Seeing was up, This was also true for our table, Bas :) The flight didn't help very much, sadly - ceilings were too low :( We had the following buffs up at all times: -Greater Magic Weapon +4 on all melee weapons -Magic Vestment +4 on every piece of armor and shield -Energy Immunity (Fire) on everyone -Heroes' Feast on everyone -Extended Enlarge Person on the tank -Stalwart Pact on all but one person (one of the wizzies didn't want it) -Zealot Pact on the tank -Stoneskin on the tank -Extended Mass Fly on everyone -+4 Extended Shield of Faith on the tank and a few other people (due to donated L1 pearls of power) -False Life on everyone (via minor rings of spellstoring) -Moment of Prescience on four of the six PCs I may have missed a few. My cleric also had Healing Lorecall, Sign and Freedom of Movement up iirc. APL 16 is fun, especially with four primary casters :) In combat, we generally had Righteous Wrath or Recitation or both running, and the tank got sonic Fires of Purity from Drezden's archmage. and after the first round those +50 hitting melee monsters were blind. The other one was stooopid 'cause of a failed save vs feeblemind. The next round the melee monsters were slowed, and seeing how the stuff that made the melee monsters go really dangerous didn't get off, we did fine ;) Possibly their saves go up a lot at 16, possibly your GM just rolled a lot worse than ours did. Like Drezden said... we had a saves-focused 32-Int grey elf fatespinner, and he tried the same tactics on that fight (feeblemind, glitterdust, slow), with no success whatsoever. That's the thing about save-or-die spells, they either work wonderfully or they don't work at all. (Forcecage has no save. /me hugs Forcecage.) Congrats on succeeding in the mission, btw :) We had a little issue with timing (our GM misunderstood when the slot finished), so we skipped one combat and finished with plenty of resources to spare, but we maxed out on gp/xp/cool stuff and did what we'd come to do, so not a big deal.
Paul H 03-09-07, 07:38 AM	Hi Totally agree with the earlier points of working together as a team & having fun. (Though one recent mod had myself, my Dakon Wiz/Warmage cohort, and another PC Wiz stealing most of the glory from 2 paladins in the party)! My main is a far from optimal Dwarf Clr 3 (Boccob) Warmage 4 Mystic Theurge 1. Not exactly brilliant at anything, exept flexibility. Only APL issues have ever affected my getting a game. So far I've played the party frontline fighter (playing down, had best AC & HP), Cleric & Blaster. Also had great fun with my Tan Bag of Tricks at Conception earlier this year. At start of any adventure I have a few 'goodies' I've picked up to hand out to other PC's. (Bracers Quickstrike, Fey Shortsword, etc). Oskar's also great for RP'ing. "OK that's the mission - what's the pay"?, plus a few (often alcoholic) Dwarven traits. Cheers Paul H
Anguus 03-09-07, 05:09 PM	I don't think there is anything more enjoyable than setting down with a group you've spent enough time with you know each others moves as they happen. As an example recently in a core adventure we came across another party and our two fighter types, a swashbuckler and myself a plate wearing version of a root spell were in the lead. The swashbuckler gave me the sign we were going to have to fight them and I led off with a Thunderstone. Sort of cheesey I know but hey a deaf mage makes for more fun on their side. The DM and the rest of the party were like umm where did that come from but our two characters had been together constantly and it worked for us. It is good to meet new people when you can get in a fun play time as well but to me it's hard to beat the fun of sitting down with a group that knows you so well they cover what you leave open before you noticed the hafling rogue sticking a rapier in your butt.
Lomiat 03-09-07, 05:12 PM	It's kind of interesting to watch this thread develop even as I've started playing some COR mods online. The group synery in the online mods I've played has been very hit or miss, generally defaulting to miss, yet they've been a lot of fun to play (and the tables have been fun) largely because I haven't expected the same, rote, optimized tactics that our local table tends to employ when our players who know each other and know each other's characters anticipate each other's moves. In other words, the chaos of our "uncooperative" online tables has proven amusing and entertaining to me thus far. This is NOT to say that the players at the tables were not team players. I refuse to pass such a judgment on them. However, the last mod I played featured 4 primary spellcasters, a bard, and my fighter. Having spent most of my fighter's career playing with tables that believe people with weapons and Power Attack should do the damage while the casters control all the circumstances of the battle, it was quite interesting to see all 4 primary spellcasters (including the cleric) default to "blaster mode." I am certain we didn't manhandle the combats as thoroughly as we could have, but we defeated them, nonetheless. Again, I'm reminded that the point of the game -- so far as I see it -- is to have fun participating in a heroic story via the vehicle your imaginary character provides. So our casters "wasted" actions... Big deal... I think their players were all inclined to have more fun if things died by repeated explosions than at the halberd of a greedy, surly Rhennee. Hmm... So if I have to come away with a moral... I guess it would be that "team play" expects all players to work toward a common goal, and hopefully that is "fun" above all else. The definition of "fun" will experience table variation.
bitznarf 03-09-07, 05:18 PM	The definition of "fun" will experience table variation. *gasp*:eek: Quick! Someone make a thread so that we can hash out what fun is! Down with table variation! All tables will have the same fun!:P
Potato Weasel 03-10-07, 06:43 AM	I love a good team not just in fights, but in RP too. It can be very fun when you have a paranoid/delusional fighter a scarlet brotherhood cleric and a peeved warmage interrogating someone. Especially when the fighter continually declares he's surreptitiously moved into flanking if negotiations aren't going too well. (: However, I hate people who make characters that cant help but constantly go into conflict with every party they go with. Say, archers who loudly insist that noone engage the monsters in melee because they don't have precise shot. Or non clerics of a god, who insist so much on their version of the gods creed that they'll stand out of combats (or actively work against the party in combat, meaning someone has to actively get in his way or he could get us killed) and just generally people who will be all too happy to let other characters die just so they can prove they're chaotic/lawfull/neutral.
Fleetfang 03-10-07, 10:11 AM	Hear hear, Potato Weasel. I think folks should remember that the need for teamwork applies OUTSIDE of combat just as much as it does on the battlemat. What good is my PC's +34 diplomacy check if there's a player who decides that he's going to start a combat right here and right now. "Fascinate for the win" doesn't mean diddly if the dwarven tank just made a decision for everyone by chucking a thunderstone at the mage (to borrow a possible example). Similarly, I've seen players who decide that they're just going to play an @!#-hole and everyone else will just have to deal with it. It's usually great for a laugh, but when every NPC interaction involves bald-faced lies for no real gain, and every mod has to begin with asking about where he can get an atonement because he fully expects to violate his alignment during the course of the mission...? It throws the other players up against the "Well, I can't attack you, so I guess we'll do it your way, @#%-hole." Thanks for giving us all a place to vent.
Timlagor 03-10-07, 12:36 PM	*gasp*:eek: Quick! Someone make a thread so that we can hash out what fun is! Down with table variation! All tables will have the same fun!:P http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=806653 :D
Timlagor 03-10-07, 12:37 PM	It can be very fun when you have a paranoid/delusional fighter a scarlet brotherhood cleric and a peeved warmage interrogating someone. Especially when the fighter continually declares he's surreptitiously moved into flanking if negotiations aren't going too well. (: So.. was he flanking the guy you were interrogating or the scumbag cleric? :angelhide
King Kashue 03-10-07, 02:56 PM	It throws the other players up against the "Well, I can't attack you, so I guess we'll do it your way, @#%-hole." They can't attack him for lethal damage... grappling him, knocking him unconscious, and then carrying him around in a bag of holding (letting air in at proper intervals, of course) is not a violation of the LGCS :D (well, the last part might be, given a goof up = death)... Now, I wouldn't do this in all but extreme cases, but if "role-playing" for him means consistently taking five players out of the module by intentionally tanking NPC interaction, then I would rather quickly decide that "role-playing" for my character is to demonstrate how much non-lethal damage a grappling bear warrior can do...
Paul H 03-11-07, 01:09 PM	They can't attack him for lethal damage... grappling him, knocking him unconscious, and then carrying him around in a bag of holding (letting air in at proper intervals, of course) is not a violation of the LGCS :D (well, the last part might be, given a goof up = death)... Now, I wouldn't do this in all but extreme cases, but if "role-playing" for him means consistently taking five players out of the module by intentionally tanking NPC interaction, then I would rather quickly decide that "role-playing" for my character is to demonstrate how much non-lethal damage a grappling bear warrior can do... Hi Or putting him last in the lineup for healing spells after combat. "Oh, I'm sorry you died. Other characters were also hurt & I would have to do a Heal check to know how bad you were"! :schemes: Not that I would condone such action, but in extremis........ Cheers Paul H
LGMoses 03-12-07, 03:15 AM	the best way to deal with peple who make a$$hole characters is just to agree not to play with THAT "character" again if he does something. Let him know first, tell him you won't adventure with "joe "hi I throw axes at npcs" the dwarf" if he keeps up. A$$hole characters are a serious problem. A lot of peple think its funny to make buthole characters for some reason. Ugh, and I hope they don't blame it on roleplaying.
Gallaway 03-13-07, 06:52 PM	the best way to deal with peple who make a$$hole characters is just to agree not to play with THAT "character" again if he does something. Let him know first, tell him you won't adventure with "joe "hi I throw axes at npcs" the dwarf" if he keeps up. A$$hole characters are a serious problem. A lot of peple think its funny to make buthole characters for some reason. Ugh, and I hope they don't blame it on roleplaying. It's generally a fairly childish attention getting exercise. Initially that sort of person tries to gain attention by being best at everything gamewise and when that obviously fails they go the other way and try for the "most annoying" award.
Gaelforcwynd 03-14-07, 08:33 AM	I also have a Cleric 1 that unbuffed has +6 to hit and +7 dmg with a Grt Sword for 9-19 dmg, but Kenobi was getting at the fact that those are a rarity, the average Cleric in LG is going to have about 12 maybe 14 STR and swinging a d6 or maybe d8 weapon. 20 STR!? Buy why.. :eek:
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 10:51 AM	I'll start by saying that I'm probably preaching to the choir here, and unless you're one of two or three players around here then please feel free to ignore this. When you get ready to make a character pick one or two things (i think two is about the ideal) and do them well. One of those two ought to involve combat in some fashion. Not necessarily defeating every encounter, but turning undead or using enchantments to dominate NPCs or whatever. When you make a character think: will this guy be wiling to join a group of 3-5 other guys and work together. If you don't like other players seriously reconsider the concept. I'm not saying that you have to be everyones friend, but please at least have some reason to join the good fight (and assume that it probably is a somewhat good fight). Sitting down to join a table introducing yourself and your character and the other guy says that his specialty is running away because you can still get full GP and XP makes me want to get up and walk away. As a final note: if you want to make the group face, I say more power to you, but please be willing to take the lead when the mod turns to the talky bits. :lop: I don't like people. That's why I play D&D. :evillaugh:
Zanzibax 03-15-07, 11:01 AM	Eh...you guys have some crappy people to work with...I was just joking.