weapon focus and weapon specialization for grapple? [Archive] - Wizards Community

weapon focus and weapon specialization for grapple? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
abbadon3718
08-06-07, 07:28 PM Can you select WF and WS for grapple? If so, does WF increase your grapple check or your melee touch attack to start the grapple?
Banor
08-06-07, 07:40 PM No Grapple are not a weapon therefore can't benefit from Weapon focus/spec
ShinAkuma2
08-06-07, 07:46 PM You can take Weapon Focus for grapple as the feat clearly states.

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

According to the Sage in some issue of Dragon (as I've heard elsewhere, don't know how accurate this is), WF applies to the initial touch attack. Of course, this is ridiculous, since the touch attack is not the grapple. What stops you from taking WF (Trip) or for any other touch move?

If you take Weapon Specialization (Grapple), by the above logic, it adds +2 to the damage of the touch attack, as well. Of course, since the touch doesn't have any damage, it can't add to anything.

IMC, WF/S Grapple apply to the grapple checks, since that makes sense and is worth something.
clannagh
08-06-07, 07:51 PM or does weapon specialisaton only apply when you are trying to do damage whilst in a grapple ?
Istaran
08-08-07, 05:33 PM I am not 100% sure on this, so feel free to reconfirm elsewhere.
I think grapple is initiated using one of your natural weapons (typically unarmed strike, though monsters would use something else), making weapon focus(unarmed strike) applicable.
Even if that is not the case, your grapple damage is directly based on your unarmed strike damage, so weapon specialization(unarmed strike) undeniably adds to your grapple damage.
Shieldhart91
08-08-07, 07:15 PM I don't think Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) will add the +1 to the initial touch attack, mainly because it's a Melee Touch Attack (IIRC, anyways.) You can take the WF in Melee Touch, but that's just to connect with the grapple.

However, the damage done due to grapple is your unarmed strike damage, so if you want the WS for the grapple, it has to be in unarmed strike damage. But that's just off the top of my head. The damage from grapple beecomes moot at higher APLs, where silencing the spellcaster becomes more important then the 1d3+STR that you would otherwise do.
abbadon3718
08-09-07, 09:25 AM I think the damage from grapple is never a moot point. As the grappler, you can have silence cast on any item you are wearing so that as soon as you get in range of the caster, he is auto silenced without a save. Still, the difference between taking 1 or 2 rounds to kill something can make all the difference in the world in LG. The 1d3+str can quickly become d8/d8+str(enlarged with scorpion claws and armor spikes)+additional weapon damage from two weapons(energy affects, spell storing, etc.). Likewise, a bear warrior/warshaper/natures warrior with a str of 50, miproved natural attack, morphic weapon, grizzly claws, and serpents coils can do a substantial amount of damage on the bears free improved grab. I wouldn't call such attacks, or any extra damage that can be added to them, moot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
abbadon3718 08-06-07, 07:28 PM	Can you select WF and WS for grapple? If so, does WF increase your grapple check or your melee touch attack to start the grapple?
Banor 08-06-07, 07:40 PM	No Grapple are not a weapon therefore can't benefit from Weapon focus/spec
ShinAkuma2 08-06-07, 07:46 PM	You can take Weapon Focus for grapple as the feat clearly states. Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat. According to the Sage in some issue of Dragon (as I've heard elsewhere, don't know how accurate this is), WF applies to the initial touch attack. Of course, this is ridiculous, since the touch attack is not the grapple. What stops you from taking WF (Trip) or for any other touch move? If you take Weapon Specialization (Grapple), by the above logic, it adds +2 to the damage of the touch attack, as well. Of course, since the touch doesn't have any damage, it can't add to anything. IMC, WF/S Grapple apply to the grapple checks, since that makes sense and is worth something.
clannagh 08-06-07, 07:51 PM	or does weapon specialisaton only apply when you are trying to do damage whilst in a grapple ?
Istaran 08-08-07, 05:33 PM	I am not 100% sure on this, so feel free to reconfirm elsewhere. I think grapple is initiated using one of your natural weapons (typically unarmed strike, though monsters would use something else), making weapon focus(unarmed strike) applicable. Even if that is not the case, your grapple damage is directly based on your unarmed strike damage, so weapon specialization(unarmed strike) undeniably adds to your grapple damage.
Shieldhart91 08-08-07, 07:15 PM	I don't think Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) will add the +1 to the initial touch attack, mainly because it's a Melee Touch Attack (IIRC, anyways.) You can take the WF in Melee Touch, but that's just to connect with the grapple. However, the damage done due to grapple is your unarmed strike damage, so if you want the WS for the grapple, it has to be in unarmed strike damage. But that's just off the top of my head. The damage from grapple beecomes moot at higher APLs, where silencing the spellcaster becomes more important then the 1d3+STR that you would otherwise do.
abbadon3718 08-09-07, 09:25 AM	I think the damage from grapple is never a moot point. As the grappler, you can have silence cast on any item you are wearing so that as soon as you get in range of the caster, he is auto silenced without a save. Still, the difference between taking 1 or 2 rounds to kill something can make all the difference in the world in LG. The 1d3+str can quickly become d8/d8+str(enlarged with scorpion claws and armor spikes)+additional weapon damage from two weapons(energy affects, spell storing, etc.). Likewise, a bear warrior/warshaper/natures warrior with a str of 50, miproved natural attack, morphic weapon, grizzly claws, and serpents coils can do a substantial amount of damage on the bears free improved grab. I wouldn't call such attacks, or any extra damage that can be added to them, moot.