Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myshkingfh 07-08-07, 10:34 PM	If you could chose between an x-bane, defending, flaming, frost, shock, ghost touch, keen, ki focus, merciful, mighty cleaving, spell storing, throwing, thundering or vicious weapon, which would you choose? In my case, my character is unable to use Ki focus or mighty cleaving, Keen would be of little help (would only expand threat range to 19-20) and vicious would be too dangerous to use because I've only got 40 HP (7th level). My first impression is that merciful is best, and ghost touch is second best. What do you all think?
dkay807 07-08-07, 11:27 PM	I'm a huge fan of Vicious but if you have low HP, then yeah.. stay away from it. It really depends on the type of character you are - speaking from general experience, if your entire PC is focused around *hitting* things, then any situation in which you are unable to *hit* things is a situation you don't want to be in. Therefore, I think Ghost Touch is probably the most useful, even if it's only useful some of the time. I'm otherwise a big fan of the various Bane enhancements, such as Elementals, Evil Outsiders, Aberrations, Giants, Undead, etc... even Dragons since on the rare occasions you do fight them, the extra help really goes a long way.
myshkingfh 07-08-07, 11:39 PM	Yeah, it's really annoying when you're dealing with incoporeals, and I'd sure love to have ghost touch then, but it seems like it's better still to have a weapon that always has a bonus. The Bane weapons seem pretty good, even if they suffer from the same problem. A human bane weapon might be best.
Gwumph 07-08-07, 11:56 PM	Actually better than ghost touch is grave strike!! +1 enhancment. Allows you to hit incorp + crit and sneak all undead. Thats big if you are from a place like perrenland. The real question comes down to whether you are going to make multiple hits or 1 big hit. I like spell storing for 1 big hit, there are lots of nasty spells that can be place on a weapon (my favorite is bestow curse) For someone making many attacks than adding a d6 of something damage makes the best bet.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-09-07, 12:26 AM	Actually better than ghost touch is grave strike!! +1 enhancment. Allows you to hit incorp + crit and sneak all undead. Thats big if you are from a place like perrenland. The real question comes down to whether you are going to make multiple hits or 1 big hit. I like spell storing for 1 big hit, there are lots of nasty spells that can be place on a weapon (my favorite is bestow curse) For someone making many attacks than adding a d6 of something damage makes the best bet. It's actually GHOST Strike, and it's a +2 enhancement from Libris Mortis, and it only allows you to crit and sneak INCORPOREAL undead. It's only a +1 upgrade from ghost touch.
lunarfish 07-09-07, 01:55 AM	It's actually GHOST Strike, and it's a +2 enhancement from Libris Mortis, and it only allows you to crit and sneak INCORPOREAL undead. It's only a +1 upgrade from ghost touch. Not in the MIC, where it is a +1 "synergy" enhancement that requires Ghost Touch but will allow you to apply critical hits and Sneak Attack against Undead (in addition to the benefits of Ghost Touch). However, because it's one of the new "Synergy" bonuses, and because it requires a separate access, it's a hard find. This is compounded by how recently the MIC was printed. But if you're a sneak attack rogue, and you're all about delivering the sneak dice, it might not be a bad decision to go Ghost Touch and pray. It would probably help to know what kind of character you are - as dkay807 said previously, Vicious is great on a high-hp character, but the cost is too great on low-hp PCs. Likewise, if you're a character class that is hosed by certain enemies, Bane: X is great, while an archer is probably drooling over the ability to add Shocking or Merciful (depending on where they're from) to their bow. So what you're trying to do will play a big part in which one you choose. Ryan B.
Gwumph 07-09-07, 03:24 AM	Right Ok, I definitly got confused reading the different books. So what book do we take it from? libris Mortis or MIC? There was a core mod in cy595 that gave access to ghost strike. I might decide to take it, but what book should i use?:confused:
lunarfish 07-09-07, 04:54 AM	OK, Gwumph, I'm not touching that one with a 50' pole. Post it in the Q&A Thread for a Circle member, or wait for a forum member more willing to go out on a limb. Ryan B.
Iswald 07-09-07, 04:57 AM	If you could chose between an x-bane, defending, flaming, frost, shock, ghost touch, keen, ki focus, merciful, mighty cleaving, spell storing, throwing, thundering or vicious weapon, which would you choose? From your list, I'm assuming that you are limited to enhancements from the DMG? Otherwise, there's sacred, magebane and other nice upgrades for your weapon. Spell storing can be very nice if you have the right spells and can determine when it's best to release the spell inside. If you can't cast your own spells, ask the party spell caster if they can spare a slot or three. You may want to have your own pearls of power if you go this route.
Kithran 07-09-07, 06:38 AM	Right Ok, I definitly got confused reading the different books. So what book do we take it from? libris Mortis or MIC? There was a core mod in cy595 that gave access to ghost strike. I might decide to take it, but what book should i use?:confused: The clue is when the mod came out - well before MIC even existed. You have access to Ghost Strike from Libris Mortis a +2 enchancement. Kithran Onnwal POC
pedr 07-09-07, 06:55 AM	The clue is when the mod came out - well before MIC even existed. You have access to Ghost Strike from Libris Mortis a +2 enchancement.Though that doesn't necessarily mean that if and when the MIC is fully integrated into the campaign you won't have to switch to the MIC Ghost Strike which might or might not make it inaccessible to your character and will almost certainly require you to end up having paid the 'correct' (new) price for it.
amnuxoll 07-09-07, 09:37 AM	Write me down for Spell Storing.
Banor 07-09-07, 10:02 AM	Spell Storing and Bane are pretty solid choices. Bane being up by a little if you are fighting the same types of monster on a regular basis
DroidTrooper 07-09-07, 10:10 AM	Not in the MIC, where it is a +1 "synergy" enhancement that requires Ghost Touch but will allow you to apply critical hits and Sneak Attack against Undead (in addition to the benefits of Ghost Touch). However, because it's one of the new "Synergy" bonuses, and because it requires a separate access, it's a hard find. This is compounded by how recently the MIC was printed. But if you're a sneak attack rogue, and you're all about delivering the sneak dice, it might not be a bad decision to go Ghost Touch and pray. Ryan B. If you read the Magic Item Compendium you will notice that most (if not all) items with "synergy" enhancement, have a "synergy" pre-requisite. In the case of grave strike the weapon in question is required to have ghost touch already. By wording it this way, it allows the weapon to upgraded more easily over time. Where as before you could not upgrade a flaming weapon, to flame bursting (well you could but it would have been +1 one for flaming, and an additional +2 for bursting) which seems out of place, now you can do that upgrade for a +1 and a +1 (which is equal to the +2 in the DMG.)
AOSOL 07-09-07, 11:11 AM	Bane(s), FTW
Newpaintbrush 07-09-07, 11:22 AM	If you could chose between an x-bane, defending, flaming, frost, shock, ghost touch, keen, ki focus, merciful, mighty cleaving, spell storing, throwing, thundering or vicious weapon, which would you choose? In my case, my character is unable to use Ki focus or mighty cleaving, Keen would be of little help (would only expand threat range to 19-20) and vicious would be too dangerous to use because I've only got 40 HP (7th level). My first impression is that merciful is best, and ghost touch is second best. What do you all think? It depends on what you're fighting, and how your character is built. Obviously, if your opponent has cold resistance, or fire resistance, or electricity resistance, the corresponding enhancements will be less useful. Keen can make a big difference for chracters that rely on criticals. But a lot of monsters are immune to criticals. And so forth. I think it's clear that the most useful weapons are those that are generally useful. I would say spell storing, vicious, and merciful in that order. Merciful's okay, but if your opponent can heal, subdual and regular damage both go away, very bad.
LeeShort 07-09-07, 11:30 AM	No love for Keen? Granted, it's usefulness is very dependent on the build and choice of weapon, but for a falchion-wielding power attacker with Improved Crit, it's a top choice. Not so useful for those dependent on sneak or skirmish dice.
thorinXXX 07-09-07, 11:34 AM	It really depends on what you do and what you face most often. If you are a 2-handed Power Attacker, the best +1 enhancement is another +1. This translates to a +3 to damage all the time. An energy enhancement only averages +3.5, but some things have resistance/immunity. If you consistantly face the same type of opponent then Bane is a very ood choice, otherwise it is hit or miss. Keen is almost as dependant on types of opponents as Bane. If nothing you face seems to be crittable, then it is a waste. I also would not reccomend it for straight fighters as they have enough feats to take Improved Crit. Merciful is almost mandatory in Ket, but of limited use elsewhere.
thorinXXX 07-09-07, 11:41 AM	No love for Keen? Granted, it's usefulness is very dependent on the build and choice of weapon, but for a falchion-wielding power attacker with Improved Crit, it's a top choice. Not so useful for those dependent on sneak or skirmish dice. Actually, for the described chracter, Keen is useless. Improved Crit and Keen explicitly do not stack.
myshkingfh 07-09-07, 12:14 PM	My specific character is Rogue 4, fighter 2, diviner 1 who plans to go full BAB from here out - NSE, EWM at least in the near future. 8 strength halfling who uses spiked chain for reach. Obv bad at tripping, power attack unavailable. I'm not sure if the favor allows +1 upgrades from outside the DMG, I'll have to read it more carefully, but that was the impression I was left with. I liked merciful because its +d6 against everyone (fire, cold, elec immunity/dr seems common). Also, it seems like it might be good because of its tendency to leave bad guys alive for questioning. I've only got 40 hp at 7th level, so while I'll get more, Vicious seems awfully dangerous, esp since my AC typically sits at around 22. Spell storing seems like a bad plan b/c my spells are inapt for it, but its a good point that other casters can do a lot better for me. My character was a resident of Keoland, is currently a resident of geoff, frequently plays in Bissel and is about to move to Southern Oregon (whatever region THAT is!) so I can't predict what type of enemy I'd be fighting with any frequenct. Undead bane might be very good though since I can only d6 them at the moment.
awroe 07-09-07, 01:22 PM	I liked merciful because its +d6 against everyone (fire, cold, elec immunity/dr seems common). Well, except things immune to non-lethal, like Undead... If you are concerned with damage vs. Undead, merciful is not the way to go.
myshkingfh 07-09-07, 01:27 PM	Well, except things immune to non-lethal, like Undead... If you are concerned with damage vs. Undead, merciful is not the way to go. Oof, did not realize that!
Lightblade 07-09-07, 01:52 PM	With the advent of the MIC, it may be that you just want to layer +1 bonuses, and hope that you'll find a Greater Truedeath crystal. It would add d6 to undead, be a ghost touch weapon, and allow you to sneak and crit undead. Trouble is, the greater crystal costs 10,000, and needs to be placed on a +3 weapon (which will set you back another 18,000), so it's not anything you'll play with anytime soon. I take it you're using your level of diviner to memorize things like Golem Strike and Critical Strike?
Morgen 07-09-07, 03:27 PM	Merciful is great. You take everyone alive, unconscious. Never accidentally kill your friends and when your fighting just monster you switch it off and slaughter wholesale.
Newpaintbrush 07-09-07, 04:34 PM	Merciful is great. You take everyone alive, unconscious. Never accidentally kill your friends and when your fighting just monster you switch it off and slaughter wholesale. When your whole party has merciful weapons, yes. Otherwise - say a creature has 15 regular damage on it, and 15 merciful (subdual) damage. It gets healed by Cure Serious Wounds for 16 points of damage. Now, it is completely unharmed. The poster that wrote that another +1 is a good option was right.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-09-07, 04:52 PM	When your whole party has merciful weapons, yes. Otherwise - say a creature has 15 regular damage on it, and 15 merciful (subdual) damage. It gets healed by Cure Serious Wounds for 16 points of damage. Now, it is completely unharmed. The poster that wrote that another +1 is a good option was right. Yeah, but the bad guys hardly ever get healed...So while on the off chance they do get healed it is an annoying setback...it almost never comes up. More likely to encounter enemies immune to non-lethal than enemies getting healed...
GeorgeFHarris 07-09-07, 04:55 PM	Well, except things immune to non-lethal, like Undead... If you are concerned with damage vs. Undead, merciful is not the way to go. It just means you need two (or three) weapons: 1. Silver; Bane(Undead); Sacred/Holy weapon 2. Adamantine; Merciful; Bane(Human) (And it can be bludgeoning for constructs.) 3. Cold Iron; Sacred/Holy weapon (For the demons and Unseelie Fey) ;) GH
myshkingfh 07-09-07, 05:11 PM	I take it you're using your level of diviner to memorize things like Golem Strike and Critical Strike? I've never met a golem. I generally memorize True Strike or Critical Strike, shield and either expeditious retreat or magic missle for when nothing else will work. I've got a Pearl of Power to get those back. Shield, when I have time to cast it, has been very helpful. It's also nice to cast detect magic when you're a rogue so as to see alarm spells (now if only I'd remember to do that). That's all post hoc justification though. The real answer is I was an unseen seer before there was an unseen seer, and now it's too late. It does seem to me that the bad guys rarely heal, so merciful retains a lot of allure for me. Undead Bane or Spell Storing could also be consistently useful. I just can't afford the sensibly suggested three weapons, but maybe someday. At any rate, this is for a few ARs from now, cause I'm finally about to get that Antlered Helm of Command I've been saving for for like 20 ARs.
Vamroc 07-09-07, 05:49 PM	If you could chose between an x-bane, defending, flaming, frost, shock, ghost touch, keen, ki focus, merciful, mighty cleaving, spell storing, throwing, thundering or vicious weapon, which would you choose? In my case, my character is unable to use Ki focus or mighty cleaving, Keen would be of little help (would only expand threat range to 19-20) and vicious would be too dangerous to use because I've only got 40 HP (7th level). My first impression is that merciful is best, and ghost touch is second best. What do you all think? You just can't go wrong with spell storage it's one of the most versatile weapon abilities you can find. As a bonus triggering the spell is a free action. So you could do something else like drink a potion or perform a charge and have lightning bolt at your disposal .
clannagh 07-09-07, 07:59 PM	Actually, for the described chracter, Keen is useless. Improved Crit and Keen explicitly do not stack. no . but a great falchion wielder with power crit on the other hand .... or a rogue with telling blow however keen weapons suffer a similiar problem to merciful .. if there are a lot of undead and constructs in your area you are in trouble as far as "bane human" goes it would work well at lower levels but at higher APL's less and less of your problem encounters are with humans .. in my opinion bane weapons are best reserved for hard to kill things things with DR like evil outsiders or dragons
Iswald 07-10-07, 11:02 AM	Yeah, but the bad guys hardly ever get healed... No doubt. A mod I ran had a high level cleric with delay death prepared. Why, I don't know. The NPC was lawful evil and had no healing spells prepared...
KarmaInferno 07-10-07, 01:06 PM	Actually, for the described chracter, Keen is useless. Improved Crit and Keen explicitly do not stack. Also, if you use a Sacred Scabbard or Oil of Bless Weapon, the auto-confirm on crits does not work with Keen. They DO work with Improved Critical, however, because it's non-magical. -karma
Newpaintbrush 07-10-07, 03:19 PM	No doubt. A mod I ran had a high level cleric with delay death prepared. Why, I don't know. The NPC was lawful evil and had no healing spells prepared... Well, Delay Death stops death from happening for a few rounds, during which time those NPCs could do more damage. For your OWN party, you want to have healing magic. But for a mod writer that wanted to put some nails in coffins, healing might not have been necessary.
Franco Un-American 07-11-07, 02:38 AM	Well, Delay Death stops death from happening for a few rounds, during which time those NPCs could do more damage. For your OWN party, you want to have healing magic. But for a mod writer that wanted to put some nails in coffins, healing might not have been necessary. No, no they can't. An unconscious character can't do anything, and Delay Death only prevents you from dying at -10, not from going unconscious at -1.
awroe 07-11-07, 07:33 AM	You just can't go wrong with spell storage it's one of the most versatile weapon abilities you can find. As a bonus triggering the spell is a free action. So you could do something else like drink a potion or perform a charge and have lightning bolt at your disposal . Except that 1) Lightning bolt is not a targeted spell, so can't be cast into a spell storing weapon 2) It's only a free action if you strike a creature and they take damage, so no triggering on potion drinking. That said, it's still a very versatile ability, being usable with things like Touch of Idiocy, Vampiric Touch, and Cure L/M/S Wounds (put it on a sap, and you can heal the cleric when they're bleeding by hitting them for non-lethal).
kjenks 07-11-07, 05:12 PM	You just can't go wrong with spell storage it's one of the most versatile weapon abilities you can find. As a bonus triggering the spell is a free action. So you could do something else like drink a potion or perform a charge and have lightning bolt at your disposal . Sadly, you can't put a Lightning Bolt in a Spell Storing weapon. The Spell Storing ability only works on targeted spells (with a Target: line in the spell description block). The saving throw DC is very low (10 + spell level + ability score modifier for the minimum ability score needed to cast the spell). The caster level is stuck at 12th, which kinda stinks for high-level casters but is nice for low-level casters. Empower Spell + Magic Missile is about the best you get.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-11-07, 05:24 PM	Sadly, you can't put a Lightning Bolt in a Spell Storing weapon. The Spell Storing ability only works on targeted spells (with a Target: line in the spell description block). The saving throw DC is very low (10 + spell level + ability score modifier for the minimum ability score needed to cast the spell). The caster level is stuck at 12th, which kinda stinks for high-level casters but is nice for low-level casters. Empower Spell + Magic Missile is about the best you get. Where'd you get the idea that the caster level of the stored spells are set to 12th and the DC is minimum? 12th is the caster level of the spell storing ability, it has nothing to do with the caster level or DC of the stored spells. It would be based entirely on the actual caster of the stored spell...
TWG_Prometheus 07-11-07, 05:52 PM	Where'd you get the idea that the caster level of the stored spells are set to 12th and the DC is minimum? 12th is the caster level of the spell storing ability, it has nothing to do with the caster level or DC of the stored spells. It would be based entirely on the actual caster of the stored spell... Do not ask that question, please. This thread is too valuable to get bogged down with that old argument.
kjenks 07-11-07, 06:24 PM	Spell Storing caster level threads: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=713462 And this one: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-763179 And this really aweful one: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11123741#post11123741 Frankly, I wouldn't bother with it. As you can see, there's going to be lots of table variation on a Spell Storing weapon and I have better things to do with my time than to argue with the DM about this each time I play.
Iswald 07-11-07, 11:18 PM	For pure damage, combust is probably the best option. It is limited though. If you have a friendly druid at hand, infestation of maggots could be good.
Master_Bushido_Mark 07-13-07, 08:37 PM	Keen, done.
jstorrie 07-13-07, 09:47 PM	Keen, Sacred, or Spell Storing. Sacred being the general best, in my opinion. Spell Storing is great for anyone who can cast Vampiric Touch, though–makes for a great necromancer-gish.
myshkingfh 07-14-07, 10:46 AM	Keen, done. I never roll 20s OR 19s!
kjenks 07-14-07, 11:17 AM	I never roll 20s OR 19s! Then put Keen on a scimitar or falchion so you only need to roll a 15+.
myshkingfh 07-14-07, 10:22 PM	Were I to do that, I'd give up reach and never hit anything due to my 9 strength.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-14-07, 10:24 PM	Were I to do that, I'd give up reach and never hit anything due to my 9 strength. If your character has only 9 strength at 7th level, why are you bothering swinging a weapon at all?
myshkingfh 07-15-07, 01:54 PM	Because he's a rogue
Jay_Ibero_911 07-15-07, 02:52 PM	Because he's a rogue Ah...soo weapon finesse and TWF I assume? Otherwise there's still no point in swinging a weapon with that str and BAB...
myshkingfh 07-15-07, 08:27 PM	Weapon finesse and spiked chain. Sure I can't power attack, trip anyone or disarm particularly well, but I can create a lot of flanks, and now that my movement is 50 I figure I can run around the bad guys to get to the spell casters. Still, Clovis is one of the few spiked chainers that no one has ever called any variety of monkey. I figure if I upgrade my spiked chain to merciful, I'll be doing 4d6 of damage against most opponents. Next level I'll get a second attack too. Its not spirited charge, but it's a living. It hasn't yet seemed worth it to buy strength enhancing magic because I've always found something I thought better than going from -1 to 0 or +1 damage (like getting 50 speed). He's my first LG character (now standing at Rogue 4, Fighter 2, Diviner 1), and he could have been better planned, but I think I'll take diviner 2 at 8, Exotic Weapon Master at 9 (flurry of blows for 3 attacks), Unseen Seer at 10, Spellsword at 11, and perhaps USS from there on out. PS. What book is the sacred upgrade in? I thought it was Complete Divine, but if it is, I can't find it!
Arvagor 07-15-07, 08:34 PM	PS. What book is the sacred upgrade in? I thought it was Complete Divine, but if it is, I can't find it! Libris Mortis, possibly superseded by Magic Item Compendium (depending on when/if you rec'd access)
myshkingfh 07-15-07, 08:51 PM	Libris Mortis, possibly superseded by Magic Item Compendium (depending on when/if you rec'd access) Ack. I have PHB2, CAd, CD, CW, CM, CS and CC - I was hoping that I wouldn't need fifteen extra pounds of books on top of the 3 metric tons I already own :( Can someone summarize what Sacred does?
Banor 07-15-07, 09:00 PM	+1d6 vs undead +2d6 vs evil outsider and weapon good aligned
myshkingfh 07-15-07, 09:16 PM	See, that is really good. What is everyone's theory on whether it's better to improve damage against practically everyone but undead by taking merciful, or whether it's better to stay the same against everyone, but at least put 2d6 into undead? I would guess being able to overcome dr/good tips the scales toward Sacred. I'll be able to cast grave strike someday, but it's going to take a few levels.
Iswald 07-15-07, 11:09 PM	See, that is really good. What is everyone's theory on whether it's better to improve damage against practically everyone but undead by taking merciful, or whether it's better to stay the same against everyone, but at least put 2d6 into undead? I would guess being able to overcome dr/good tips the scales toward Sacred. I'll be able to cast grave strike someday, but it's going to take a few levels. Turning merciful on or off is a standard action. You only gain the extra d6 when you are trying to subdue something. Sacred will help you fight some creatures you would have a tough time with because they can't be sneak attacked. Even with grave strike, undead are immune to crits and nonlethal damage.
myshkingfh 07-16-07, 09:37 AM	That's not how I read this: Merciful: The weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, and all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until commanded to resume it. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the merciful effect upon their ammunition. I would think that the extra 1d6 is always on, unless I turn it off, and doesn't require me to attack to subdue in order to get it. In fact, I imagine using the weapon on sneak attacks for 1d6 weapon damage, 2d6 sneak damage and 1d6 subdual damage on all opponents susceptible to sneak and subdual damage. If I chose merciful, I'd be quite weak against undead and constructs, but I'd be a bit stronger against everything else. Sacred would make me okay against undead, and a little stronger against everything else. Also, I'm still not sure my AR grants access to any +1 enhancement, or only those in the DMG.
Shaudius 07-16-07, 11:13 AM	I can be pretty certain that whatever favor you have specifies that its DMG only or a list of sources that you can pick from. With all the new books coming out and tons of unchecked +1 enhancements it pretty much has to be that, there's some pretty broken +1 enhancements in the MIC. That being said, Merciful from the SRD says, The weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, and all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until commanded to resume it. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the merciful effect upon their ammunition. This implies to me always on, no activation required, turning it off and on is a standard action, but its default on all the time initally. Sacred will only help you against evil outsiders and undead. Two very common things, but only those two things nonetheless.
Frumpkis 07-16-07, 05:15 PM	I believe it's been clarified in the FAQ that you can leave your weapon enchantments 'on' by default. So for LG, you can declare to your DM at the beginning of the mod that you're turning on your weapon, and leave it at that.
myshkingfh 07-16-07, 06:19 PM	But what about "all damage it deals is non-lethal damage"? Does that mean that my sneak attack damage is subdual damage? And if so, doesn't that run afoul of the rule that sneak attack damage is always lethal damage? Does this mean that I can't sneak attack with it? Or is that damage produced by the sneak attack and not the weapon? If that were the case, a thrid level rogue would to 4d6 on a sneak attack - 2d6 from the weapon would be subdual and 2d6 from the sneak attack would be lethal. Anyone care to take a definitive stand?
Lupo 07-16-07, 07:04 PM	But what about "all damage it deals is non-lethal damage"? Does that mean that my sneak attack damage is subdual damage? And if so, doesn't that run afoul of the rule that sneak attack damage is always lethal damage? Does this mean that I can't sneak attack with it? Or is that damage produced by the sneak attack and not the weapon? If that were the case, a thrid level rogue would to 4d6 on a sneak attack - 2d6 from the weapon would be subdual and 2d6 from the sneak attack would be lethal. Anyone care to take a definitive stand? sneak attack damage takes the form of the "weapon" damage. therefore an arcane trickster can sneak with spells and a sap is ALWAYS dealing subdual damage. so a (sneak)-attack with a merciful weapon would cause subdual damage from all dice and all other boni - bard's song, righteous wrath of the faithful, power attack, sneak, skirmish, point blank shot, war-mage's edge, swashbuckler's grace, etc. ciao martin m.
myshkingfh 07-16-07, 07:34 PM	Wow, I bet that would be really great about 90% of the time and really crappy for the 10% of the time that the bad guys have heal spells. Also it will lead to a bunch of those threads where people argue about what to do with captives. I like it!
clannagh 07-17-07, 12:14 AM	See, that is really good. What is everyone's theory on whether it's better to improve damage against practically everyone but undead by taking merciful, or whether it's better to stay the same against everyone, but at least put 2d6 into undead? I would guess being able to overcome dr/good tips the scales toward Sacred. I'll be able to cast grave strike someday, but it's going to take a few levels. On the other hand you can get DR/good for 100gc a pop with an oil of magic weapon or by buying the slightly-overpowered-but-not-quite-cheesy sacred scabbard. Bless weapon also auto confirms crits on evil targets which is rather nice. Merciful on the other hand is not available as a potion or scabbard AFAIK.
jstorrie 07-17-07, 01:02 AM	Oh, sacred scabbard is way past slightly-overpowered, now that it's swift to activate.
KarmaInferno 07-17-07, 10:14 AM	Mechanically, more crit chance/multiplier is almost always better for a power-attacking type fighter than any extra 1d6 or 2d6 of damage. I have a 12th level greatsword power attacker, who does roughly 40-60 points of damage per strike from Power Attack, Strength, and weapon damage alone. An extra 1d6 or 2d6 only adds 3.5 or 7 points of damage on average, whereas Keen will increase her chance of critting to 20% of the time. In ten successful hits that's an extra 80-120 points of damage versus a +2d6 bonus dice adding 70 damage over the same 10 hits. Using a greataxe instead means only a 10% chance of critting, but x3 damage, so it works out to about the same as the greatsword. I prefer Improved Critical over Keen, however, as it works fully with the Sacred Scabbard, where Keen dones not. For speed-fighters, using two-weapon fighting and multiple smaller attacks, though, extra damage might be better than improved critical chance. -karma
kjenks 07-17-07, 12:26 PM	I'd like to remind you of the advantages of forgoing these "+1 equivalent" special abilities for your +1 weapon in favor of an upgrade to a simple +2 weapon. Compared with a +1 Flaming or Shocking or Frost weapon... A +2 weapon is always on. A +2 weapon has more hardness and HP. A +2 weapon hits more often and confirms crits more often. A +2 weapon's damage bonus is multiplied on a critical hit and/or Spirited Charge. A +2 weapon helps to overcome hardness and DR -- even the dreaded DR/-. A +2 weapon works on all enemies, regardless of energy resistance, alignment, type and subtype. A +2 weapon speeds up your turn because you never have to ask the DM about energy resistance, alignment, type and subtype. My high level fighter mutt has a +1 adamantine ghost touch longsword that he uses as a utility weapon. It can hit and damage almost anything, it can chop through walls or ceilings, it can sunder things really well, it's tough enough (hardness and HP) to stand up to some punishment, and it can be used one-handed or two-handed. It's a really nice weapon. But his main weapon is a +4 keen cold iron lance. I chose +4 instead of any of the fancy special abilities he has access to because of the reasons listed above. He also has a +1 bow (for attacking incorporeals from a distance), +1 frost armor spikes (for grappling) and +1 defending silver shield spikes on his animated shield (for a little more defense). So I'd recommend that you think carefully about your options, and don't necessarily put all of your weapon investment into one weapon. And don't limit your thinking to special abilities; consider the advantages of a +5 enhancement bonus.
awroe 07-17-07, 01:11 PM	I'd like to remind you of the advantages of forgoing these "+1 equivalent" special abilities for your +1 weapon in favor of an upgrade to a simple +2 weapon. Compared with a +1 Flaming or Shocking or Frost weapon... A +2 weapon is always on. ... You missed: A +2 weapon and two handed power attack = a +1 weapon that does an additional 3 damage to any target - favourably comparable with 1d6 to most targets. However, Greater Magic Weapon works better on a +1 Flaming weapon than a +2.
solbergb 07-17-07, 04:34 PM	I favor vicious and merciful. The former because it does the most damage, and does it to ANYTHING (untyped energy damage), the latter because it is not only one of the most reliable d6 damage things out there - only undead and constructs are immune - but because having the option to do full power nonlethal damage gives the party more options. Sacred is also a really good buy, especially for archers who can't use oil of bless weapon. Regarding keen weapons, remember that you only crit on crittable enemies. YMMV on how many you run into. Against anyone else, that +1 is dead weight. I also tend to assume that at APL12+ you WILL get a GMW+3 or better on your best weapon if you are primarily a melee hitter, and that sometimes in APL8-10 you'll get GMW+2-3. So straight enhancement bonuses beyond+1 are usually a waste, because by the time you can afford them, you can get GMW if your main role is to "hit things with my weapon". My only level 14 melee fighter has an 11k weapon and an 18k weapon. He doesn't have the luxury of multiple +5 weapons. The point though of having a few specific 8k weapons and a 18-36 k weapon is probably better than a 50k weapon is valid though, and I agree with it.
Iswald 07-17-07, 11:13 PM	I would think that the extra 1d6 is always on, unless I turn it off, and doesn't require me to attack to subdue in order to get it. In fact, I imagine using the weapon on sneak attacks for 1d6 weapon damage, 2d6 sneak damage and 1d6 subdual damage on all opponents susceptible to sneak and subdual damage. What I was trying to say is that when you decide you want to turn off the merciful damage, you'll have to spend a standard action to do so. Most likely, this will happen during combat. As a judge, I'd assume that you normally have merciful on, unless you state otherwise. I'd also likely assume that you turn it back on after each combat ends, if you had turned it off.
solbergb 07-18-07, 09:03 AM	That is a downside of Merciful, but again, you only really need to switch it off for construct or undead fights. Or you can do what my archer with the merciful bow does. Have quickdraw and start with all weapons sheathed. Draw the right weapon first. No actions wasted.
JamesMaissen 07-18-07, 09:06 PM	If you could chose between an x-bane, defending, flaming, frost, shock, ghost touch, keen, ki focus, merciful, mighty cleaving, spell storing, throwing, thundering or vicious weapon, which would you choose? Defending, Ghost Touch, and Spell-storing would be my choices. Next would be either Vicious or Merciful depending on the kind of character. Defending: If you have combat expertise this is a great ability to increase your tanking ability when you decide to cork. Ghost Touch: Makes a nice specialty weapon for when the incorporeals come out to play. Spell-storing: A nice bag of tricks option that works best if you have an idea of what you will be fighting. Vamp touch, Touch of idiocy, and even dispel magic make good choices. -James