Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rjesterie 04-16-08, 12:29 AM	hi guys, id like to check a few things to make shure ive got them right. one of my caracters got a farmilar thru the "obtain farmilar" feat, since all classes that give arcane spells stack for the purpose of determining its abilities, that would make me "12th level" for this. I have choosen a raven 'cause it can speak one language master knows, and since it has my skills using its own stat bonuses it can check my book keeping when im being a mercenary :) the problem comes with what else it can do, within weight limitations, can it wear armor (barding) simular to a animal compainion. (mithril chain shirt barding for a tiny critter is 1lb...) -I know birds are'nt proficient in light armor so -5 to attacks (fear my 1d2 -5 claw of power!) second, can a farmilair use -use activated- magic items (bag of tricks, necklace of fireballs, ect.) -can it use command word items? (a raven can speak common..) I assume a farmilar can do anything a normal animal companion can do, but with a int of 6+ he doesnt need to be directed. other then the farmiliar listing in the PHB (link w/ master.. ect) is there anything else my devious heart should know about?
RanielK 04-16-08, 09:19 AM	hi guys, id like to check a few things to make shure ive got them right. one of my caracters got a farmilar thru the "obtain farmilar" feat, since all classes that give arcane spells stack for the purpose of determining its abilities, that would make me "12th level" for this. I have choosen a raven 'cause it can speak one language master knows, and since it has my skills using its own stat bonuses it can check my book keeping when im being a mercenary :) the problem comes with what else it can do, within weight limitations, can it wear armor (barding) simular to a animal compainion. (mithril chain shirt barding for a tiny critter is 1lb...) -I know birds are'nt proficient in light armor so -5 to attacks (fear my 1d2 -5 claw of power!) The LGCS lists which items a familiar can use. Only dragon familiars get to use every worn item in the book. All others use the same limits for animal companions and the like. second, can a farmilair use -use activated- magic items (bag of tricks, necklace of fireballs, ect.) Depends on the familiar. The mephits and the like can. They're humanoid in shape. Most of the animal familiars can't as most judges rule they're just not that capable of manipulating such things. -can it use command word items? (a raven can speak common..) Most judges I know would rule the Raven was able to activate command words as they speak a language. The master-familiar language is debated, but most come down against letting that be the command word for an item. I assume a farmilar can do anything a normal animal companion can do, but with a int of 6+ he doesnt need to be directed. Yep, though most still only have an animal's perspective until their Int goes up and they get the Master-familiar language thing going. other then the farmiliar listing in the PHB (link w/ master.. ect) is there anything else my devious heart should know about? Your familiar can be raised. You still loose the xp for it dying as that happens immediately; however, it can be raised, unlike an animal companion or bought animal. You should be keeping it out of harms way, but every once in a while, its tiny size, human level int and mental link to its master make you think "hmmmmm, good scout." Now, if you also invest in an improved familiar or get crazy luck to get access to dragon familiar, things change. Dragon's can wear any item and use any item, so the sky is the limit for how you equip them. Many of the improved familiars can manipulate items, so ranks in UMD and wands give you an "extra action" (as well as the possibility of making the familiar a target). The combat familiars are useful. The hippogrif gives you a flying mount. The blink dog + the 2 transposition spells give you a hostage rescue option. Transpose the hostage and the blink dog. Blink dog then dim doors out of the action. Use baleful if you're not 100% certain the hostage will willingly be transported AND the dog and hostage can be connected by a single surface. Miles Ward player of Raniel Kavilion, CN Wild Mage and master of Little Rogue a Celestial* Pseudodragon who used a Wand of CLW thanks to master's UMD score *thanks to an AR favor
Timlagor 04-16-08, 10:09 AM	The main problem with armour is whether you have access. you should also note that tiny armour only gives half the AC. Non-proficiency means that the ACP applies to attack rolls... but Mithral Shirts have no ACP. better to just use Mage Armour. For magic items, the big problem is manipulation -birds mostly use their beaks which would preclude speech.
magebeast 04-16-08, 12:46 PM	And also keep in mind that the moment you start using the familiar in combat, he becomes a target.
kenobi65 04-16-08, 03:00 PM	And also keep in mind that the moment you start using the familiar in combat, he becomes a target. Yup. Many DMs won't go out of their way to target a familiar that's minding his own business, hanging out close to his master. But, when that familiar makes himself a viable combat target, you're probably going to start attracting attention. And, while familiars certainly have some defenses, they aren't exactly tanks in most cases.
Howie23 04-16-08, 03:26 PM	Your familiar can be raised. You still loose the xp for it dying as that happens immediately; however, it can be raised, unlike an animal companion or bought animal. You should be keeping it out of harms way, but every once in a while, its tiny size, human level int and mental link to its master make you think "hmmmmm, good scout." I'm surprised no one has made "Nuh-uh..." noises about this. Prior to LGCS 7, companions, familiars, etc. could not be raised in LG. That restriction is now gone as far as I can tell. Another quiet change. edit: no one has made "nuh-uh" noises for the good reason that I was wrong and familiars are raisable. :\ David
Timlagor 04-16-08, 06:07 PM	Familiars have always been Raisable. I'm pretty sure Companions and Mounts still can't be ..but I haven't checked. Most enemies won't attack familiars because they are not a serious threat. Most PCs won't waste attacks on a familiar either ..though they certainly get attention when the Wizard casts a really nasty touch spell (such as the 'save or dissolve into goop over 3 rounds' spell from some sick sourcebook that we spellcrafted once) It's not just GMs being nice. Familiars also have Improved Evasion and are often in full cover somewhere on the Mage's Person (or flying well clear). Personally I liked to use my (hawk) familiar a lot and he only died once when I deliberately put him next to a confused Occult Slayer PC who would otherwise have mashed a rather careless Sorceror (all some other guy's fault for moving his Bag o' Tricks Bear away... not the Sorceror's at all.. oh no ;)).
Howie23 04-16-08, 09:09 PM	Familiars have always been Raisable. I'm pretty sure Companions and Mounts still can't be ..but I haven't checked. Looks like we're both confused. :) I was wrong, familiars have indeed been raisable. The in LGCS FAQ about companions and mounts being unraisable is gone, though. David
RtrnofdMax 04-17-08, 01:40 PM	Am I a bad person for wanting to ask, "Where can I git one of them thar farmilars?"
cycloptic_squirrel 04-18-08, 12:41 AM	At low levels I've had good luck having my familiar use the aid another action for my warrior-mage's attacks. They're great for popping other people's mirror images. I've even had it try and grapple an opposing mage. Yes this made the familiar a target, but it had a better AC than I did and every swing at the familiar was one less swing at me. Because they have the same skills as you do, it essentially gives you a second attempt at most spot, listen, and search checks. If you can communicate, you can get useful information out of your familiar's knowledge rolls. I also generally use it to take actions in combat that I don't have the actions for. While a bird can't open a door, it can pick up a dropped wand, coup de gras paralized enemies, carry a light source.
Rjesterie 04-20-08, 12:05 PM	The main problem with armour is whether you have access. you should also note that tiny armour only gives half the AC. Non-proficiency means that the ACP applies to attack rolls... but Mithral Shirts have no ACP. better to just use Mage Armour. For magic items, the big problem is manipulation -birds mostly use their beaks which would preclude speech. your right , I forgot to check the Non-proficiency penalty on armor. but do you know where that rule on tiny armor is? ive been searchig for it :weep: > in the MM I found a example of the reverse not being true, (titan wears a huge half plate+4.. grants 11 ac, just like medium.. but no tiny critters wear armor in there that i could find).. and usually D&D likes that kind of balence note.. my caracter just lost a few lvls due to a wraith ********.. (bye bye 3/4 the way to 13, hello starting at min 11th level with a few favors gone.... grumble grumble) so im definetly looking at imp. farmilar instead of leadership - get it on the retrain. (Pseudodragon with a wide brimmed hat in mithril.. sounds like a perfect "cohort" and "warrior brother"... time to make the top of my haversack more comfy :) ) thanks for all the idea's and info guys! one more question though.. do spell effects stack in a area in ways of damage? case in point "ring of blades" a personal spell that hits for 10+1d6 around the caster when he activates for 10 min (non dismissable :( ).. cause shared with a farmilair on your person makes a effortless 20+2d6 of pain around you... ahhh, vengence for all the min-maxed halforc npc's in every apl 2-4 adventure I hated :D .
Timlagor 04-20-08, 12:13 PM	It's in the PHB near the tiny armour cost/weight table (might be a note at the bottom of that table) I see no reason the damage wouldn't all apply.. however you'd better make sure you don't mince you familiar when you do that.
amysrevenge 04-20-08, 01:45 PM	My shocker lizard familiar (alongside my cohort's shocker lizard familiar) when properly buffed can sort of tank, if I'm playing down. Even under normal circumstances, the familiar's AC is about 20 points higher than the master's. You can do it, it just takes a lot of effort and money.
Maesto 04-20-08, 07:58 PM	Take a rat (or any other Tiny-sized familiar), and put the following buffs on him: Greater Mage Armour Shield Cat's Grace Enhance Familiar Fortify Familiar Augment Familiar Enlarge Person (so it gets to size small, and actually takes a square!) Protection from Evil NONC spells that help: Dragonskin Sonorous Hum (to keep augment familiar running) You end up with a critter of about AC 40. He's damn near impossible to take out, but his damage is rather seriously limited... The best use of a familiar that I know of is to share the spell "Dragonsbreath" (SC) with, or using the Inevitable Form of Unyielding Death spell on.
rockondon 04-20-08, 11:26 PM	how about giving it a cape of mountebank and ready a standard action to get you outta the way if someone comes at you? Or to throw you in the bad guy's face so you can get a full attack. I considered a wizard level dip for my combat cleric just for that versatility plus that free alertness feat lets ya use "not this time," best card ever.
Rjesterie 04-22-08, 06:59 AM	It's in the PHB near the tiny armour cost/weight table (might be a note at the bottom of that table) I see no reason the damage wouldn't all apply.. however you'd better make sure you don't mince you familiar when you do that. ack, your right.. that brings his max ac to 28 (unless i sink a LOT more gold into him) but that should be ok. "rockondon : how about giving it a cape of mountebank and ready a standard action to get you outta the way if someone comes at you? Or to throw you in the bad guy's face so you can get a full attack. " I was getting me that cloak for me... but now... gee this farmilar's getting spoiled before i even have him :D :edit: "RanielK The combat familiars are useful. The hippogrif gives you a flying mount. " :blink: cant believe i missed this, is this another feat "combat farmilair"? if so this ones just as tempting...
RanielK 04-22-08, 09:26 AM	"RanielK The combat familiars are useful. The hippogrif gives you a flying mount. " :blink: cant believe i missed this, is this another feat "combat farmilair"? if so this ones just as tempting... No, the "combat" familiars come from Complete Warrior. They're in CW's list of Improved Familiars. I find that if you're going to take a familiar, an Improved Familiar is the way to go. They still get all of the familiar's abilities (improved evasion, increased Int, communication with master, SR, etc) with the bonus that comes from whichever familiar you get access to/take. For instance, I have access to both Ice and Salt Mephits. Being humanoid shaped creatures capable of speaking they'd be great for the UMD'er. They'd be able to manipulate anything and really make use of UMD, with no table variation! Plus mephits fly, usually have an alternate movement (Swim, burrow, whatever) and have some unique abilities (breath weapon, spell-like). They're tough to get though because they require special access. From the DMG, I like the pseudodragon. It flies, has blindsense (good for getting which square to target with glitterdust!), and the telepathy can be used as a cheap "psychic switchboard" to keep everyone in silent contact. Most judges have no qualms about letting them UMD stuff as they're just tiny dragons and thus are considered able to manipluate things with their claws (just as dragons can). The only concern is the carrying capacity. Complete warrior gives you a hippogriff for a mount, the blink dog + Benign/Baleful Transpo for tactical reshuffling of the battlefield, and the rest can hold their own in combat, especially with spells like Augment Familiar and Fortify Familiar.
solbergb 04-25-08, 07:08 PM	If you craft stuff, it's easier to get a GM pass on using the familiar language for command words (crafted for ITS language). Likewise access to things like size tiny capes of the montebank is rare, but if you can craft it, you're probably ok. Generally if you want to use your familiar in combat beyond things like "pinpoint the invisible guy for the party" "be a transposition target" "deliver touch spell" or "carry something light from one place to another", you need spell support, the most commonly available is things like the polymorph tree spells that turn it into a troll or marut or something. (or limited access things like my sorcerer's size large red dragon form...weaker than Marut, but it's only a L6 spell) Even the non-spell-support uses can get a familiar into trouble. Burke's familiar in recent adventures has required a raise, an atonement and rescue from Ghenenna (that wasn't his fault...he was minding his own business when he failed a blasphemy save while not on home plane, rolled the % to go to a random plane and got a bad roll). To really be safe from all harm, the familiar needs to be hiding in full cover or a familiar pocket. Some area effects are pretty harsh, even with improved evasion. Familiar saving throws, even for a hybrid monk/wizard/fighter's familiar suck - mostly because they lack the APL appropriate resistance cloak or vest+attribute enhancement items.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-25-08, 09:25 PM	With the Complete Scoundrel Improved Familiar feat open, ALL mephits are now open access as improved familiars as long as the master is true neutral and caster level 7 or greater. As far as tiny sized capes of the mountebank, all wondrous items automatically resize to fit their wearer.
RanielK 04-27-08, 05:12 PM	With the Complete Scoundrel Improved Familiar feat open, ALL mephits are now open access as improved familiars as long as the master is true neutral and caster level 7 or greater. As far as tiny sized capes of the mountebank, all wondrous items automatically resize to fit their wearer. Really?!? On both points. The mephits thing is great for folks. I've already got access from the Pale. Though I'd always thought that magic items didn't resize in LG. That's why you had to find access to anything other than small or medium (or large if you are a lvl 6 Centaur).
magebeast 04-27-08, 05:47 PM	Really?!? On both points. The mephits thing is great for folks. I've already got access from the Pale. Though I'd always thought that magic items didn't resize in LG. That's why you had to find access to anything other than small or medium (or large if you are a lvl 6 Centaur). Armor and weapons do not, because there is nothing in the rules to say that they do. Wonderous items do, explicitly.
copperwyrmling 04-27-08, 06:49 PM	Armor and weapons do not, because there is nothing in the rules to say that they do. Wonderous items do, explicitly. I don't think this is true in LG. From the LGCS, "Equipment does not automatically resize unless specifically stated otherwise by the effect. If you change size and the effect does not state what happens to your items, only items in the following slots continue to function normally: cloak, amulet/brooch, and weapons. All other items either fall off or are absorbed into your new form and cease to function." But based on this, cloaks don't need to resize, so familiars wearing those are still okay :) The LGCS also says: "All items in the Items Found box of an AR are of an appropriate size for your PC, unless explicitly stated otherwise (small for halflings, medium for dwarves, large for centaurs). Their quality is what is specifically listed in the Items Found section of the AR. Items gained through metaorgs or favors may be of any size from Tiny to Large, unless specifically stated otherwise."
Black_Egg 04-28-08, 10:42 PM	My Spellsword has a hawk familiar that was kept out of the way for most of her career, but I hit level 12 a while back and that's been changing. I've been using Aspect of the Icy Hunter to change the familiar into a White Wolf (the breath weapon is nice and actually hits reliably) and due to my Spellsword's +9 Base Attack Bonus the familiar was able to grapple a Grig, pin it into submission and strip the Grig of its weapon recently. (Their Tiny-size grapple modifiers were about even at -1 or so.) Gish familiars are much different from those of full casters. Mine will never get Speak with Master and other such benefits, but it has a higher base HP count and BAB which give it some interesting perks at high level. My hawk is probably going to start hunting the familiars of enemy Wizards in future modules. If I ever get to level 15, I'll be polymorphing the familiar into a red dragon with Lesser Dragonshape. Hooray for access!
Hariman 04-28-08, 11:00 PM	My Spellsword has a hawk familiar that was kept out of the way for most of her career, but I hit level 12 a while back and that's been changing. I've been using Aspect of the Icy Hunter to change the familiar into a White Wolf (the breath weapon is nice and actually hits reliably) and due to my Spellsword's +9 Base Attack Bonus the familiar was able to grapple a Grig, pin it into submission and strip the Grig of its weapon recently. (Their Tiny-size grapple modifiers were about even at -1 or so.) Gish familiars are much different from those of full casters. Mine will never get Speak with Master and other such benefits, but it has a higher base HP count and BAB which give it some interesting perks at high level. My hawk is probably going to start hunting the familiars of enemy Wizards in future modules. If I ever get to level 15, I'll be polymorphing the familiar into a red dragon with Lesser Dragonshape. Hooray for access! Speaking of Gish familiars, Hexblades can get some of the better combat familiars much easier than other classes. They can get a hippogriff familiar at level 7 and have a flying mount for as long as they can keep it alive.. Blink Dogs are pretty good too. And getting Mephits as familiars is just wrong. Especially if you get the later mephits like salt mephits and other more recent mephits.
Black_Egg 04-28-08, 11:15 PM	Speaking of Gish familiars, Hexblades can get some of the better combat familiars much easier than other classes. They can get a hippogriff familiar at level 7 and have a flying mount for as long as they can keep it alive.. Blink Dogs are pretty good too. And getting Mephits as familiars is just wrong. Especially if you get the later mephits like salt mephits and other more recent mephits. I'm DMing a Demonweb Pits game for a straight Hexblade that has just barely passed their year mark after losing their first Improved Familiar. I'm kind of curious to see what they choose for the new critter.
copperwyrmling 04-29-08, 06:20 PM	Burke's familiar in recent adventures has required a raise, an atonement and rescue from Ghenenna (that wasn't his fault...he was minding his own business when he failed a blasphemy save while not on home plane, rolled the % to go to a random plane and got a bad roll). That was one of the most memorable parts of the whole mod for me - I thought the hastily organized rescue mission to Gehenna (using Discern Location + Gate scroll) to go retrieve the poor weasel was pretty cute :) (We had all those other familiars on the table, I imagine they were all chiming in to argue that yes, retrieving lost familiars is a good idea ;) ) I have to admit, my L15 sorcerer treats her rat as a cute little furry ball of +2 Fort save + Not This Time prerequisite. He hides in her inner coat pocket whenever her adventuring buddies show up, and is rather twitchy and nervous whenever he does come out, having been traumatized by adventuring with a reckless Wild Mage for the last four years. My L9 sorcerer is tougher personally, not so reckless and not so overprotective of her familiar, so her cat Vol may yet see melee combat - "I turn my familiar into a dragon and cast Shadow Fires of Purity on her" seems stylish ;)
Redfist 04-29-08, 07:17 PM	Same here. To date, my familiar has been a +2 fort save hiding in a Familiar Pocket letting me use "not this time". Familiars can be very effective, but also require a pretty good tax to use effectively (tax == spell slots for buffs).
Maesto 04-29-08, 08:04 PM	Heh, I was proud that we could mount a rescue mission to Gehenna ;) It felt like we'd reached a certain level of power and respect that we could actually pull that off (even without having the spells prepared to undertake such an expedition, it took just over two hours of game time to execute!). I've used my familiar in combat a couple of times, usually in combination with a polymorph-type spell. When Polymorph was around, the Will'o'the'whisp form was particularly useful; the AC on that thing was pretty good, and it provided a consistent bunch of damage, especially with some combat buffs like haste. Recently, he's seen use as a Marut for a bit of fun. In one module, I kept the rat enlarged (so it would count as a small creature and take up a space) and rather buffed, in order to provide a cork for the party (AC in the mid 40's). I would like to say that it worked, because the only time that anybody got hurt in the module was when a wizard in an antimagic field ran away from the rest of the party, but really, he was absolutely useless, because everything else was dead before it got near us and we never needed the cork ;) Otherwise, yes, I admit... it's a +2 fort and Not This Time prereq provider that hides in a familiar pocket... for shame!
JohnduBois 04-29-08, 09:36 PM	Burke's familiar in recent adventures has required a raise, an atonement and rescue from Ghenenna (that wasn't his fault...he was minding his own business when he failed a blasphemy save while not on home plane, rolled the % to go to a random plane and got a bad roll). I *so* should have rolled a random Gehenna encounter for you to fight and waste resources on...
Lomiat 04-29-08, 11:54 PM	I think Isis has more kills than Lomiat in recent adventures. When you can use a swift action to bring in a heavily-buffed Marut (normally a CR 15 creature on its own), it's hard *not* to turn to the familiar as a melee combatant sometimes. That said, Isis has died once, but has proven to be one of the most heroic members of any party (more so than Lomiat, one might argue, especially if one knows Lomiat). Isis has played many roles: scout, tactical support (for benign transposition), touch spell delivery, and skill support (even with the lower Int, Isis can make some nice skill checks due to all those ranks). There are probably more, but those are the ones that initially come to mind. It's true, though, that one pays a heavy tax (in spell slots), to make full use of a familiar, but the rewards (after APL 6) outweigh the costs -- drastically so at APLs 10+ when it's unlikely a caster can even find enough rounds of combat to dip into the fourth-tier slots. At least half of the top tier slots should be combat spells, and the same for the second tier. The third tier starts to see the balance shift toward buffing and control over damage, and the rest should generally be less focused on damage and more on continual bonuses and/or "handyman" spells -- for those strange moments when you just might need X.
Redfist 04-30-08, 05:24 PM	You know what else a familiar can do? It can cause, through its death, a 15th level wizard to play more LG before taking 0gp/0xp. I think I may be frontlining my familiar in Marut form in the next mod or 2. He'll either be effective or cost me a raise dead while burning off my XP. Win Win! :D
Black_Egg 05-05-08, 09:08 PM	You know what else a familiar can do? It can cause, through its death, a 15th level wizard to play more LG before taking 0gp/0xp. Don't you have to fail a Fortitude save to take the XP hit though? I thought it was DC 15 or something relatively trivial like that.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-05-08, 11:44 PM	Don't you have to fail a Fortitude save to take the XP hit though? I thought it was DC 15 or something relatively trivial like that. It's fort save for half xp loss. And you can always voluntarily fail a save...
_metz_ 05-05-08, 11:52 PM	It's fort save for half xp loss. And you can always voluntarily fail a save... Where is this coming from? I would like to know the source if possible. I find it odd to think we can choose to allow poisons to affect us or not, etc. I think it is applicable for Reflex saves and SOME will saves (we do have a subconcious) but can't seem to find any rules stipulation to that effect...
Jay_Ibero_911 05-06-08, 12:32 AM	Where is this coming from? I would like to know the source if possible. I find it odd to think we can choose to allow poisons to affect us or not, etc. I think it is applicable for Reflex saves and SOME will saves (we do have a subconcious) but can't seem to find any rules stipulation to that effect... Hmm...well I thought it was an all encompassing rule, but apparently it only applies to spells: Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. Not sure what page of which of the core books, but it's in the magic overview section of the SRD...
_metz_ 05-06-08, 12:50 AM	Hmm...well I thought it was an all encompassing rule, but apparently it only applies to spells: I didn't think it applied to everything. - Hence I wanted to know...
The_Jester 05-07-08, 04:05 PM	If it's a bird it can hold things in it's claw, like a wand. So load up on Use Magic Device ranks and you have yourself a flying healer/blaster.
_metz_ 05-07-08, 11:00 PM	My Monkey has opposable thumbs and runs around with a rod of wonder... Also a belt of potions and other useful things.