Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grantor 07-19-07, 07:05 PM	I was not around during the days when LG had to convert. I missed both 2.0 to 3.0 conversion and 3.0 to 3.5. It is likely that someday Wizards of the Coast will have to move to 4.0. With all of the prestige classes and feats, it could be very problematic. If, for example, the designers switch to a system with talent trees, much of the need for prestige classes gets changed into releasing new talent trees for the various base classes, although some PrC will still have a place. (e.g. Star Wars Saga Edition). When a system of rules has been built up over half a dozen years, starting over was probably disruptive back when 3.0 came out and will likely be just as disruptive. What lessons were learned in the past transition? What fears do players have? Why are players still designing 15-level character builds that take 3+ years to retire when 4.0 is probably closer than that? I would prefer to avoid the debate about if/when 4.0 will be released. There is already a page on that in the D&D Fundamentals forums. I would like to stick to how any possible change of the rules will impact LG and the RPGA.
Genghis Cohen 07-19-07, 07:26 PM	At this time, any answer that you get will be pure speculation. Here's my speculation: As LG players represent a substantial number of the core D&D consumer base, I believe that WotC will want to incentivize the players to buy and use 4.0 products as soon as possible. The best way to do this is to keep LG alive and require character conversions. This has happened in LG three times already; when 3.5 was released, when the builder books were phased out of the campaign for the initial batch of the Complete and Races books, and recently for druids only because of campaign adoption of the new polymorph rules. LG has been able to successfully adapt and change as the game changes. It has a massive volunteer infrastructure that is not easily replaceable. I know of no good reason for WotC to do anything other than to continue to support LG.
Haro 07-19-07, 07:50 PM	Ah, a guaranteed multi-page thread about what happens to LG when the next version is released that will start and end just like the 1732 similar threads before it. Whatever have I done with the three weeks since the last one? :( Firstly, speculating about this is as useful as guessing who will be the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft in 2010, or what the plot of Transformers 3 will be. Secondly, like the two examples above, am I the only one who thinks there will be enough speculation to choke on when WotC actually *announces* a release date for the next edition of D&D? What's the rush? Finally, I understand the OP wasn't around for the 2003 or 2005 conversions so it may seem new to him/her. What I don't get is that if you are new(ish) to the campaign, why worry over something that may happen at some unknown point in the future? Just enjoy the game! Gah, I think I got up too early this morning... Joe
_metz_ 07-19-07, 09:03 PM	Ah, a guaranteed multi-page thread about what happens to LG when the next version is released that will start and end just like the 1732 similar threads before it. Whatever have I done with the three weeks since the last one? :( Firstly, speculating about this is as useful as guessing who will be the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft in 2010, or what the plot of Transformers 3 will be. Secondly, like the two examples above, am I the only one who thinks there will be enough speculation to choke on when WotC actually *announces* a release date for the next edition of D&D? What's the rush? Finally, I understand the OP wasn't around for the 2003 or 2005 conversions so it may seem new to him/her. What I don't get is that if you are new(ish) to the campaign, why worry over something that may happen at some unknown point in the future? Just enjoy the game! Gah, I think I got up too early this morning... Joe hear hear. That is all.
ShinAkuma2 07-19-07, 09:22 PM	Personally, I plan on burying my head in the sand. If I can't see the 4.0 books, they can't alter my characters.
control freak 07-19-07, 09:48 PM	fire cures the books, fire cures them all, and if the circle likes fire enough to join them... then shame on them :D ;)
Arvagor 07-19-07, 10:47 PM	I was not around during the days when LG had to convert. I missed both 2.0 to 3.0 conversion and 3.0 to 3.5.Wasn't LG the campaign to showcase 3.0's intro? I wasn't around at the beginning of the campaign either, but if I'm not mistaken, there was no LG under the 2e rules, so we've only gone through one conversion...
kenobi65 07-19-07, 11:36 PM	Wasn't LG the campaign to showcase 3.0's intro? I wasn't around at the beginning of the campaign either, but if I'm not mistaken, there was no LG under the 2e rules, so we've only gone through one conversion... Correct. LG was introduced at GenCon 2000, at the same time as 3E. There never was a 2E version of LG. Living City, on the other hand, *did* exist during 2E, and (after a vote among the players) decided to convert to 3E...a conversion that was a royal pain in the butt, and which many players now see as the beginning of the end for that campaign.
kenobi65 07-19-07, 11:40 PM	As LG players represent a substantial number of the core D&D consumer base That depends on your definition of "substantial number." I seem to remember reading an estimate of the LG player base at 15,000 regular players. Might be more, but probably not more than several tens of thousands of players. (I *do* know that the smaller Living campaigns, like Living Force, Living Death, etc., only had a couple thousand players.) I guarantee you that the total D&D player base, worldwide, is in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It's possible that WotC sees LG players as an important, "thought-leader" kind of group, but we do not make up a significant fraction of the D&D player base.
ezreal2001 07-20-07, 08:45 AM	I was not around during the days when LG had to convert. I missed both 2.0 to 3.0 conversion and 3.0 to 3.5. It is likely that someday Wizards of the Coast will have to move to 4.0. With all of the prestige classes and feats, it could be very problematic. If, for example, the designers switch to a system with talent trees, much of the need for prestige classes gets changed into releasing new talent trees for the various base classes, although some PrC will still have a place. (e.g. Star Wars Saga Edition). When a system of rules has been built up over half a dozen years, starting over was probably disruptive back when 3.0 came out and will likely be just as disruptive. What lessons were learned in the past transition? What fears do players have? Why are players still designing 15-level character builds that take 3+ years to retire when 4.0 is probably closer than that? I would prefer to avoid the debate about if/when 4.0 will be released. There is already a page on that in the D&D Fundamentals forums. I would like to stick to how any possible change of the rules will impact LG and the RPGA. Well, from memory the RPGA's LG campaign as was launched as part of WotC's intial DnD 3.0 release, so there was no 2.0 to 3.0 conversion as far as I'm aware. Living City did do a 2.0 to 3.0 conversion but that's a different story and it's outside my experiance. In the leadup to the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion there was a bit of fear and loathing but the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 core rules (followed by a 2nd conversion a while later when the 3.0 splat books were retired some time later) was fairly smooth. Of course characters that relied on specific 3.0 rules items were problematic, however the conversion rules were quite liberal - the second more so - so if people were prepared to be flexible it was all good, and some people did take the opertunity to . And a number of the modules required errata because of rules differences anyone who played or ran Witchhunt will know what I'm talking about. Oh and as far as 15-level character builds go there people who will be mooted 3.5 builds upto and beyond any conversion from 3.x to 4.0, becuase they just like designing stuff - BTW my 14 lvl PC was first played in 2000 and has survived several conversions. Finally what keep's LG going is not the choice of rules that describe how players interact with our collective game of make belive - but the comitment of many many people be they organisers, writters, dms or palyers to keep this a fun experiance for everyone involved.
The_Jester 07-20-07, 10:14 AM	Best way would be to "end" the campaign. Let current characters play 3E mods until the mods retire and have a big dramatic event mod (playable APL 2-16) that gives the character reason to "retire". Meanwhile they start making mods for 4E. Re-do the campaign standards, quirks in the rules and systems and make LG more solid from the get-go. So when 4E is released in 2012 (my guess) we can slowly retire characters until the end of 2013 while playing new mods with new characters. That's IF Living Greyhawk is around for another 5 years. And IF the RPGA is around for the same. And IF there even is a D&D 4E and Hasbro doesn't just pull the plug.
Genghis Cohen 07-20-07, 11:52 AM	That depends on your definition of "substantial number." I seem to remember reading an estimate of the LG player base at 15,000 regular players. Might be more, but probably not more than several tens of thousands of players. (I *do* know that the smaller Living campaigns, like Living Force, Living Death, etc., only had a couple thousand players.) I guarantee you that the total D&D player base, worldwide, is in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It's possible that WotC sees LG players as an important, "thought-leader" kind of group, but we do not make up a significant fraction of the D&D player base.I didn't write "total D&D player base," I wrote "core consumer base." There's a huge difference, and I stand by what I wrote.
MatteBlack 07-20-07, 12:21 PM	I didn't write "total D&D player base," I wrote "core consumer base." There's a huge difference, and I stand by what I wrote. True, I'd imagine that your average LG player owns more D&D books than the average player. The rules promote this.
Samwise 07-20-07, 12:24 PM	Go over to the Future Releases forum and check the thread on WotCs Spring 2008 catalogue. 2 Eberron books 1 "behind the scenes" book 1 adventure 1 dungeon tiles For January to April 2008.
bitznarf 07-20-07, 01:19 PM	Wow, thats not very many considering the rate they had been releasing them.
Grantor 07-20-07, 01:42 PM	Go over to the Future Releases forum and check the thread on WotCs Spring 2008 catalogue. 2 Eberron books 1 "behind the scenes" book 1 adventure 1 dungeon tiles For January to April 2008. Actually, a bigger picture is to look at ALL of the announced future releases (except novels): Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk - Adventure Aug-07 Confessions of a Part-time Sorceress - Accessory fluff Sep-07 Exemplars of Evil - Accessory Villians rulebook Sep-07 Grand History of the Realms - Accessory FR Sep-07 D&D Icons: Legend of Drizzt Scenario Pack - Accessory Miniatures Sep-07 Fortress of the Yuan-ti - Adventure Sep-07 Rules Compendium - Accessory Rulebook Oct-07 Dragons of EB - Accessory EB Oct-07 Dungeon Survival Guide - Accessory Oct-07 Inn-Fighting - Accessory Oct-07 Dungeon Tiles V: Lost Caverns of the Underdark - Accessory Nov-07 Anauroch: The Sundering of the World - Adventure FR Nov-07 Elder Evils - Accessory Dec-07 Worlds and Monsters - Accessory fluff Jan-08 City of Stormreach - Accessory EB Picture book Feb-08 Mysterious Lairs Dungeon Tiles - Accessory Mar-08 Eberron Survival Guide - Accessory EB fluff Mar-08 Keep on the Shadowfell - Adventure Apr-08 D&D Miniatures Game Starter Set - Accessory Miniatures Apr-08 D&D Dungeons of Dread Booster Pack - Accessory Miniatures Apr-08 4 adventures 1 miniatures set + 1 mini's accessory + 1 iconic set 3 Eberron books (two of them fluff) 1 Forgotten Realms book (history fluff) Rules Compendium 2 Tiles sets 2 Bad-guys fluff/splat books (Elder Evils and Exemplars of Evil) 4 General books (moderate to high fluffiness) No more Complete or Races books for the next 9 months. But, there is already a debate about the complete lack of splat books in the upcoming line-up, and how that telegraphs a possible transition to 4.0. And, really, that doesn't matter, because they will either announce it at GenCon in less than a month, or they won't. I want to stick to: What worked well in the last transition? How long does it take to plan a transition for the LG campaign? How drastically do the rules have to change in order to force a "reboot" of the campaign? What about this change can be leveraged to increase the player's pool for the RPGA and LG?
Samwise 07-20-07, 01:50 PM	Actually, a bigger picture is to look at ALL of the announced future releases (except novels) I was quite assured that such an analysis was completely irrelevant, and not reflective of any trend or pending change, when I made it a few months ago in the Future Releases forum. :rolleyes: And, really, that doesn't matter, because they will either announce it at GenCon in less than a month, or they won't. Indeed. Although I've stocked up on "I told you so"s just in case. ;)
Sieylianna 07-20-07, 06:29 PM	I think we're going to see 4.0 sooner rather than later. I will be shocked if it's not released by Gen Con 2009. I've heard that it is even more a tactical miniatures game than 3.5. Finally, there is the big RPGA announcement at this year's Gen Con and I think that ties to the upcoming release of 4th edition. You'll recognize the similarities to the 3.0 roll out when you hear it. As far as a LG conversion goes, I think living city showed that trying to convert high level PCs from one game system to another is a major pain. It can be done and AR's/MIL eliminate the need to convert certs, but it still won't be pleasant. Ed
The_Jester 07-21-07, 11:18 AM	Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk - Aug-07 Exemplars of Evil - Sep-07 Rules Compendium -Oct-07 Dungeon Survival Guide - Oct-07 Elder Evils - Dec-07 That's keeping with the book-a-month policy that people have been complaining about. Now they're cutting back and people are *gasp* complaining. No more Complete or Races books for the next 9 months. Oh, you mean like in 2005? When they released CAd and RoW early in the year (Jan & Feb) and didn't release another race book (non-Eberron) until the following January and another complete book until april (psionic). CM followed that the next october. Sure we got other splat books (environment and Heroes of) books, but there's only so many of those. Now they're doing more adventures in place of those and the fluff books. They're still releasing as many books, just not as many books LG can use. And as pointed out earlier in this thread LG only makes up between 1-10% of the D&D players so we're not a large enough niche to market products to. But, there is already a debate about the complete lack of splat books in the upcoming line-up, and how that telegraphs a possible transition to 4.0. They could release a book called "How 3E will never die and last 4ever!" and people could complain how it telegraphs a possible transition to 4.0 I want to stick to: What worked well in the last transition? As was pointed out there wasn't a last transition. And in the campaigns that did attempt one it was the death knell. 3.0 -> 3.5 was a minor change at best. How long does it take to plan a transition for the LG campaign? How drastically do the rules have to change in order to force a "reboot" of the campaign? Well, given the Circle don't receive advanced copies of the books we would need to wait for all the Core books to be released before they can even start planning a change. And since modules would already be in the works for the year it would have to be a big change-over at the end of one year and start of the next. For example, IF they announced it this year for next, the Circle would get the books in late '08 with everyone else. Summer usually, when they released the last lot. But since mods take 6+ months to prepare the first crop of year 9 mods would already be in the works. And there wouldn't be enough time to get a Campaign Standard out and Writer's Guide for the authors. So Year 9 would be the final year (or partial year) and the new CS and WG with conversion would launch with Year 10. HOWEVER, this would mean that the conventions in Year 9 (if not Year 8) would feature an outdated game. So there might be a push to start doing adventures for the convention season. So Year 9 might be a partial year changing halfway through. But that would mean having old edition mods (un-retired Year 8s and or 9s) floating around with new ones. Conversions would likely be one-way only so it would make playing awkward as heck, possibly halving the characters to choose from in any given mod. The best way would be to not allow conversions and only new characters. And it's easier than figuring out how to convert a splatbook heavy powergames build into a new core-only character without either changing him entirely or keeping his feel but making him weak and inefficient. What about this change can be leveraged to increase the player's pool for the RPGA and LG? I don't think anything can be done to push the RPGA more in a official game capacity. It's pretty much in the hands of locals and small scale spreading.
qstor 07-21-07, 06:35 PM	Finally, there is the big RPGA announcement at this year's Gen Con and I think that ties to the upcoming release of 4th edition. You'll recognize the similarities to the 3.0 roll out when you hear it. No my gutt feeling is that it will be a new Eberron campaign with similiarities to a Living Campaign with some online tracking for PCs like D&D campaigns. If it was a "pure" Living Campaign I'd think I'd play. Mike
Grantor 07-24-07, 06:40 PM	HOWEVER, this would mean that the conventions in Year 9 (if not Year 8) would feature an outdated game. So there might be a push to start doing adventures for the convention season. So Year 9 might be a partial year changing halfway through. Thanks for responding to the main topic. Now, Star Wars Saga came out last month and has a 4-adventure mod "previewing" at Gencon next month, with an expected September release. So I'm not sure that your explaination of time-scale quite matches my expectations. Also, 3.0 was playtested for a year, with partial/nearly-complete rules available on NDA. Unlike the 2-3 month production schedule for the books that are put out monthly, developing, editing and playtesting three new core books surely will result in more time to work with the RPGA, I would think. Also, regional mods take about 2-3 months each to produce in the Duchy. Are you sure that there would be a 9-15 month lag following the Core rules release?
kenobi65 07-24-07, 09:17 PM	Now, Star Wars Saga came out last month and has a 4-adventure mod "previewing" at Gencon next month, with an expected September release. Not exactly. From what I've read elsewhere, including here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=863456): The new Star Wars "adventure path" (not an RPGA campaign per se, though there'll be the ability to play it for RPGA credit) is something like 10 or 12 adventures, each of which advances the PCs a couple of levels; the intent is that, by playing the entire path, you'd take PCs from 1st to 20th level. Each of these adventures will take considerably longer than a single 4-hour con slot to play; what's being offered at Gen Con looks to be the first part of the first adventure.
clannagh 07-24-07, 10:20 PM	Here is the "true" story: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a
bitznarf 07-25-07, 12:20 PM	Released April 1st you say. No one would ever believe that, therefor it must be true!
Grantor 07-25-07, 04:48 PM	Not exactly. From what I've read elsewhere, including here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=863456): The new Star Wars "adventure path" (not an RPGA campaign per se, though there'll be the ability to play it for RPGA credit) is something like 10 or 12 adventures... Yes, not exactly. I did not mean to imply that this was an RPGA campaign, just that adventures were going to be available to RPGA players (and others) in a short time period. Here, I will note, the quick turn around could be in part because the head of SW-R&D is writing the adventure path.