Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 01-03-07, 02:12 AM	Which perform skill is the best to take? What are the different advantages of each?
andinel 01-03-07, 03:01 AM	Perform (sing) or Perform (oratory) would probably be best. They both let you use bardic music and you don't need an instrument, so if you get stuck without it you can still use all of your bard abilities.
andinel 01-03-07, 03:02 AM	((Double post. Sorry))
frupton 01-03-07, 03:34 AM	I'm not sure there's a single best. It's nice to be able to perform with hands free. But the benefit of the mwk instruments in Complete Adventurer are only usable with the appropriate skill (perform wind / string / percussion.)
Lupo 01-03-07, 03:37 AM	Which perform skill is the best to take? What are the different advantages of each? from the srd PERFORM (CHA) Like Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, Perform is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Perform skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. Each of the nine categories of the Perform skill includes a variety of methods, instruments, or techniques, a small list of which is provided for each category below. • Act (comedy, drama, mime) • Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling) • Dance (ballet, waltz, jig) • Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ) • Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling) • Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong) • String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin) • Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet) • Sing (ballad, chant, melody) i wouldn't take "act" or "dance" as it implies that your comrades have to see you for getting any bonusses (dance is ok when you are going for dervish anyway, but still a bit strange). comedy can be fun and is very usefull, but is best used by someone who can role-play it as well :), advantage of "no hands needed to use" apart from the hurdy-gurdy there are few hand-held keyboard instruments that are old enough to be used in a fantasy setting. advantage to use a masterwork instrument (when you can find access, i am not sure about the current rulings on them) oratory is also not to bad, especcially in combination with the "in-character-flavour-combination" of marshall or paladin (with devoted performer); advantage of "no hands needed to use" if i ever play a bard i am tempted to build a touv (rastafarian) complete with steel drum pan ;) in times of dire needs a steel shield might be used as instrument :P. timbrels seem to be somehow associated with rhenee culture, another good hook for a character background. advantage to use a masterwork instrument (when you can find access, i am not sure about the current rulings on them) string instruments are classics for bards but very susceptible to attacks. advantage to use a masterwork instrument (when you can find access, i am not sure about the current rulings on them) wind instruments are also a somehow classical choice. advantage to use a masterwork instrument (when you can find access, i am not sure about the current rulings on them) singing is also very popular unless someone insists on playing it out without any talent ;); advantage of "no hands needed to use" ciao martin m.
CdrcJsn 01-03-07, 04:03 AM	string instruments are classics for bards but very susceptible to attacks. advantage to use a masterwork instrument (when you can find access, i am not sure about the current rulings on them) wind instruments are also a somehow classical choice. advantage to use a masterwork instrument (when you can find access, i am not sure about the current rulings on them) You can purchase masterwork instruments from the PHB. The special uses described in complete adventurer however require access for special training. I've seen access at least three times so far on ARs and both my bard characters managed to pick it up. Quite useful to get a few ranks in strings and percussion even if your main perform is oratory based for the different bonuses to Inspire Courage.
Mommy was an Orc 01-03-07, 08:30 AM	i wouldn't take "act" or "dance" as it implies that your comrades have to see you for getting any bonusses (dance is ok when you are going for dervish anyway, but still a bit strange). comedy can be fun and is very usefull, but is best used by someone who can role-play it as well :), advantage of "no hands needed to use" Comedy is part of Act. If you can do Act, you can do Comedy.
smerwin29 01-03-07, 08:57 AM	Definitely Perform (riverdance). Bard/barbarians are not truly realized unless you are riverdancing in battle.
Lupo 01-03-07, 01:47 PM	Comedy is part of Act. If you can do Act, you can do Comedy. strange they have comedy twice, once as a sub genre of acting and once as a class compromised of buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling. and i interpret the second one as stand-up-comedian's art, and the sub genre of acting as the comedy as a play genre like tragedy. and the stand-up comedian seems more playable than the theater type. ciao martin m.
Mommy was an Orc 01-03-07, 02:06 PM	strange they have comedy twice, once as a sub genre of acting and once as a class compromised of buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling. In the SRD, maybe. However, the SRD is not a legal LG document. PHB just has the one...
ranagrande 01-03-07, 02:12 PM	In the SRD, maybe. However, the SRD is not a legal LG document. PHB just has the one... The lists in the SRD and the PHB are identical. Even in the PHB, comedy is listed twice.
Mommy was an Orc 01-03-07, 02:15 PM	The lists in the SRD and the PHB are identical. Even in the PHB, comedy is listed twice. Huh...wow, must have auto-blanked it out or something.
LGMoses 01-03-07, 02:44 PM	its two different types of comedy. One is like a comedy play and the other is telling jokes and stuff. Someone really needs to make Yorik from the Hamlet movie.
kenobi65 01-03-07, 02:45 PM	Someone really needs to make Yorik from the Hamlet movie. ::tosses LGMoses a skull:: Here you go. ;)
PaulH 01-03-07, 07:31 PM	Hi Actually the best perform Skill must go to one of two: 1) Players who can play (well) characters totally against their own personal beliefs/alignment. 2) Players who remember that the GM likes 2 sugars in their coffee, and very partial to 'Jammie Dodgers'........ (Any ensures ready supply of both) :D Cheers Paul H
clannagh 01-03-07, 07:44 PM	Note that some of the complete books have specific instruments (like lutes) that (providing you get access) do some rather funky stuff
PaulH 01-03-07, 08:05 PM	Note that some of the complete books have specific instruments (like lutes) that (providing you get access) do some rather funky stuff Hi Yep. My Mark of Heroes char has a Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern - a lute that grants CLW, Mage Armour & Sleep each once per day. (Helps with his disguise. He's a Changeling Warmage/Recaster, who's normal form is Half-Elf Bard). Cheers Paul H
Shieldhart91 01-03-07, 09:32 PM	Perform (Humming)
LGMoses 01-03-07, 10:00 PM	Perform (Humming) I'm trying to ask what instrument has seen the most AR access/etc in the LG. Is there one instrument you've noticed forms of popping up on AR's constantly?
kenobi65 01-04-07, 12:11 AM	I'm trying to ask what instrument has seen the most AR access/etc in the LG. Is there one instrument you've noticed forms of popping up on AR's constantly? Don't know that I've ever seen an instrument on an AR. I'd note that most of the magic ones in the Complete books and DMG that rely on Perform are either string instruments (lute, harp, etc.) or wind instruments (flute, pipes).
paigeoliver 01-04-07, 12:25 AM	My Marshal has Perform (Acting) and Perform (Storytelling). Their uses are really only for roleplaying though, it isn't like I use them in combat. My vote for best perform though would be Perform (Exotic Dancing), but only if it is a really heavy dwarf, since I think that would be pretty funny.
Arvagor 01-04-07, 12:47 AM	You can purchase masterwork instruments from the PHB. "A masterwork instrument grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks involving its use ..." The odd thing about the PHB entry -- and perhaps it would have been awkward to phrase it another way -- is that it seems that one could sink all their ranks into a single Perform skill, say Perform (sing), and use that for their bardic abilities, yet even through they're playing an instrument with a crappy Perform rank for the instrument, they'd still get the instrument's +2 bonus to their Perform (sing) check. Example: - Bob the bard wants to use his Fascinate (Sp) ability - Bob has 9 ranks in Perform (sing) - He makes a Perform (sing) check and rolls a 20, for a result of 29 - He has 0 ranks in Perform (string instruments) - He is playing a MW mandolin - $64K question: Does his mandolin playing increase the Fascinate DC to 31?
Lupo 01-04-07, 01:14 AM	"A masterwork instrument grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks involving its use ..." The odd thing about the PHB entry -- and perhaps it would have been awkward to phrase it another way -- is that it seems that one could sink all their ranks into a single Perform skill, say Perform (sing), and use that for their bardic abilities, yet even through they're playing an instrument with a crappy Perform rank for the instrument, they'd still get the instrument's +2 bonus to their Perform (sing) check. Example: - Bob the bard wants to use his Fascinate (Sp) ability - Bob has 9 ranks in Perform (sing) - He makes a Perform (sing) check and rolls a 20, for a result of 29 - He has 0 ranks in Perform (string instruments) - He is playing a MW mandolin - $64K question: Does his mandolin playing increase the Fascinate DC to 31? nope, masterwork boni are at dm's decision :) and as perform is divided in sub skills each skill is separate from each other. ciao martin m.
LGMoses 01-04-07, 01:15 AM	Sometimes its not about how its worded but common sense. Don't turn this into a game of magic, (the card says all not other so everybody gets it). If I noticed someone giving themselves those bonuses I would disallow it, subtract the bonus from their role, and scold them against using that sort of stupid bonus in future games whether they be mine or someone elses.
frupton 01-04-07, 02:11 AM	There may be something to be said for perform (wind) over perform (string). If you look at the detail under the instrument descriptions in Complete Adventurer, many of them specify that while performing on them, a bard can only cast spells that have no somatic, material, or focus components. The instruments that say this are: fiddle, harp, lute, lyre, mandolin. (All the string ones). The instruments that don't say this are: drum, flute, horn, pan pipes. (All the wind/percussion ones). I read this to mean that if you are using one of the wind/percussion instruments, you can cast spells while performing -- since they are silent on this point, while the string ones explicitly state that you can't. Your DM may or may not agree.
Arvagor 01-04-07, 07:44 AM	I read this to mean that if you are using one of the wind/percussion instruments, you can cast spells while performing -- since they are silent on this point, while the string ones explicitly state that you can't.I'm wondering though, how can you cast spells with Verbal components while playing a wind instrument (since your mouth is occupied with playing the instrument)? How can you cast spells with Somatic components while playing a percussion instrument (since neither hand is free)?
frupton 01-04-07, 01:59 PM	I'm wondering though, how can you cast spells with Verbal components while playing a wind instrument (since your mouth is occupied with playing the instrument)? How can you cast spells with Somatic components while playing a percussion instrument (since neither hand is free)? Good question. In terms of the somatic/material components, perhaps the idea is that you can play wind instruments one-handed and gesture with the other hand. Certainly quite possible with a horn. Probably possible with pan pipes or a medieval flute (more like a modern recorder), since the hand that holds it also has some control over which notes are being played. Though a much smaller range of notes would be available while so playing. Definitely impossible with a fiddle, or even with a harp, where you have to hold it with a hand that can't play notes. You'd have to either drop it or not play anything. In terms of speaking while playing a wind instrument, there's problems with things other than spellcasting, if you assume the wind instrument has to be played continuously. For example, how can you use perform(wind) to make a Suggestion? So performers are perhaps presumptively allowed to intersperse some vocals into their performance. (Tequila!) Should the same apply to string players with gestures? *shrug* The Complete Adventurer says not, but ask your DM.
LGMoses 01-04-07, 02:28 PM	There may be something to be said for perform (wind) over perform (string). If you look at the detail under the instrument descriptions in Complete Adventurer, many of them specify that while performing on them, a bard can only cast spells that have no somatic, material, or focus components. The instruments that say this are: fiddle, harp, lute, lyre, mandolin. (All the string ones). The instruments that don't say this are: drum, flute, horn, pan pipes. (All the wind/percussion ones). I read this to mean that if you are using one of the wind/percussion instruments, you can cast spells while performing -- since they are silent on this point, while the string ones explicitly state that you can't. Your DM may or may not agree. I read it to say you can't. your hands are going to be busy on most of the wind/percussions and ur mouth is going ot also be busy on several. Either way, u can't cast and play bardic music at the same time.
LachlarlanIII 01-04-07, 06:20 PM	My favorite is Perform: Kazoo :D
CdrcJsn 01-04-07, 07:28 PM	There may be something to be said for perform (wind) over perform (string). If you look at the detail under the instrument descriptions in Complete Adventurer, many of them specify that while performing on them, a bard can only cast spells that have no somatic, material, or focus components. The instruments that say this are: fiddle, harp, lute, lyre, mandolin. (All the string ones). The instruments that don't say this are: drum, flute, horn, pan pipes. (All the wind/percussion ones). I read this to mean that if you are using one of the wind/percussion instruments, you can cast spells while performing -- since they are silent on this point, while the string ones explicitly state that you can't. Your DM may or may not agree. The thing is, you normally cannot cast spells at all if you're maintaining a bardic effect without ending that effect. The special ability of the Strings category is that you can cast Verbal spells, which you normally can't.
frupton 01-05-07, 12:26 AM	The thing is, you normally cannot cast spells at all if you're maintaining a bardic effect without ending that effect. The special ability of the Strings category is that you can cast Verbal spells, which you normally can't. As I reread the text, I think you are right.
Iswald 01-05-07, 08:53 AM	Make sure you have a good int and take versatile performer so that you don't have to pick just one.
knoway21 01-05-07, 11:47 AM	The most interesting perform i've seen used during battle was perfrom(dance). The player used it to avoid provoking(At the DM's called DC of 18+init of each past this way) as it moved past the flunkies to attack the boss. The most interesting i've seen out of combat was perform(tom foolery). Which the bard used to send the almost combat into a laughing mob to be walked away from. :D
Lomiat 01-05-07, 06:08 PM	Don't know that I've ever seen an instrument on an AR. I'd note that most of the magic ones in the Complete books and DMG that rely on Perform are either string instruments (lute, harp, etc.) or wind instruments (flute, pipes). I've seen several instruments and several miscellaneous items that benefit bards. All have been for stringed instruments. Currently, my bard has 5 ranks in Perform (oratory), but my new plan is to take just one more rank in it (enough to use Oratory for Suggestion), then switch over to Perform (stringed instruments) to take advantage of the goodies to which I've gained access. The "loss" of six skill points smarts, especially when I need 48 in specific locations to qualify for Sublime Chord, but considering my bard's perform skill will improve by *at least* 4, I think it's worthwhile. (That's 4 more to his Fascinate DC. Got a natural 20?) So... I'd recommend Stringed Instruments. The fact that it requires your bard to tie up his/her hands for a round is hardly an issue. Since bardic music requires a standard action, and the effects last for 5 rounds, it's simple enough to give a performance in the first round, then set aside the instrument to free your hands.
PaulH 01-05-07, 06:56 PM	Hi Only ever seen one instrument in 36 games, the Lute I mentioned earlier. Cheers Paul H
Lupo 01-05-07, 07:07 PM	i have seen pipes of the sewers once ;) ciao martin m.
The_Jester 01-05-07, 07:36 PM	Oratory is good for hands free but woodwinds and strings seem to be the most common magical instruments. If you want flexibility the Versitile Performer (Complete Adv ?) is Core (IIRC) and allows you a couple extra choices of instruments. You can purchase masterwork instruments from the PHB. The special uses described in complete adventurer however require access for special training. I've seen access at least three times so far on ARs and both my bard characters managed to pick it up. Quite useful to get a few ranks in strings and percussion even if your main perform is oratory based for the different bonuses to Inspire Courage. For the love of Odin and all that is holy and unholy please tell me they were in still-legal Core mods!
CdrcJsn 01-05-07, 11:37 PM	For the love of Odin and all that is holy and unholy please tell me they were in still-legal Core mods! Sorry. One still active regional, one Interactive and one mini-mission. I don't think I've ever run across the training in a core mod.
Lomiat 01-06-07, 09:32 AM	For the love of Odin and all that is holy and unholy please tell me they were in still-legal Core mods! I've seen access to masterwork instrument training in a number of metaorgs. Bardic colleges tend to reward their students that way.
blood_kite 01-06-07, 11:33 AM	For the love of Odin and all that is holy and unholy please tell me they were in still-legal Core mods! Check your meta-orgs. Both Nyrond and The Pale have meta-orgs that allow you to use the Complete Adventurer masterwork instrument rules.
The_Jester 01-06-07, 01:20 PM	Sorry. One still active regional, one Interactive and one mini-mission. I don't think I've ever run across the training in a core mod. Which region? I'm in the travel industry and a masterwork horn or flute might *almost* be worth airfare and hotel...:( And I've checked and double-checked my metaorgs. No bardic colleges, no CAd training, nada. Some of my friends might be writing regionals... I might just have to suck up a hell of alot...