Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 02-02-07, 11:40 PM	Whats class do you enjoy playing most? Why? I like rangers. I feel useful scouting ahead, helping everyone subsist off of the wild. Barbarians are good for that too when I want to smash stuff. :D
copper_wyrmling 02-03-07, 02:03 AM	Sorcerers :mage: Mostly because I like talking, I think, so I prefer playing fairly high-Charisma characters where I can happily talk to everyone (and be reasonably pleasant and diplomatic) without feeling like I'm acting out-of-character. Also, high Charisma and low Wisdom is how D&D seems to define insanity (see derro madness, for example), which is fun to roleplay ;) I also enjoy spontaneous spellcasting: being able to apply metamagic on the fly and cast any spell in your repertoire repeatedly if required gives quite a lot of flexibility, and it's a fun challenge to try to figure out how to adapt your tricks to unusual situations. Admittedly, I haven't tried playing a wizard yet, mostly because I always gravitated to playing wizards in D&D-based computer games, and I have a horrible suspicion any LG wizard I play will end up as a clone of my Baldur's Gate illusionist (who I played from L1 through to her ascension to godhood somewhere in the epic levels). Thus, I may prefer sorcerers simply because they're the closest thing I've tried to wizards - I love arcane magic ;)
Lupo 02-03-07, 07:35 AM	Whats class do you enjoy playing most? Why? I like rangers. I feel useful scouting ahead, helping everyone subsist off of the wild. Barbarians are good for that too when I want to smash stuff. :D i like all the classes and few prestige classes i play or aim at. cleric: solid all around character, can be build with a special aim or as a generalist, always good to have one at the table. somehow weak on offensive spells early in the career but good at buffing and domains add some nice gadgets. druid: the character that can basically go alone, no matter what the rest of the table is, a solid druid is a always useful. good section of spells, sturdy animal companions are nearly double the effectiveness. fighter types (actually better full-BAB-frontliner builds): sometimes it isn't just enough to deal ridiculous amounts of damage. but one the other hand sometimes it is just that what a party needs. archer types: as long as DR isn't eating away to much from their damage they are devastating. need some more investment in weapon enchantment than frontliners. light infantry (monks, rogues, scouts any combination, gishes): more flexible than fighter types but often works with a certain trick or only versus one group of foes. adds some scouting and sneaky abilities. wizard: Greyhawk specific the wizard has a slightly better time than the sorcerer, due to easy access to PoPs. sorcerer: (i am not yet playing a sorc in LG, just in a home campaign with basically the LG rules set): has gained some bonus through draconic feats, the problem to get spell slots one level delayed is compensated somehow by the higher number of slots. but still, since wizards have PoPs like marbles, a sorcerer is somehow behind them. these are all of my current or planned LG characters. ciao martin m. ps: classes i would hardly play are favored soul and warmage. unless there is a very specific reason, and i haven't yet found one ;)
Reska 02-03-07, 09:42 AM	Strange as it may sound, but the one I feel most useful in a mod. Sure, I have some wacked out ideas at time...and I've made a couple characters that are effectively useless (at least early on in their careers)...but if I feel that I've offered something in a mod, whether it be to assist someone else or to do something that nobody else is capable of...well, that's it for me. Of course, my two main characters right now are the Dire Tortoise with Wasteland Druid Companion...and a Wee-Jas Witch. --Reska
Akhamshyy 02-03-07, 10:40 AM	Druid: Not for the reasons some play the class. I have such a fun time DMing and judging for LG that I tend to get bored with a single character after a while. With druids I can always call some extra things in to play as. With druids I eventually get to be something else. With druids I have a non-humanoid pet with me to play. With driuds I don't need to worry about silly upkeep. And last but certainly not least, with druids I have an excuse to pay extra for authentic Spring 557cy Gucci Dragon Hide Full Plate. :cool:
zigspatty 02-03-07, 11:07 AM	Clerics. Every party benefits from having one; they can do some cool magic, but aren't too squishy. A cleric can wade into battle if needed, but doesn't need to be the front line usually. There's always something a cleric can do to help the party be successful - heal, buff, cast offensively, diplomacize, or just plain hit with a weapon - it's fun to be useful, even if it's rare to be the "star". Of course, I have other characters that I can play if I want to fill some other role and they're all fun to play - that's why I created them! Patty
Mommy was an Orc 02-03-07, 11:40 AM	I like Bards. Very few people have seen a Bard played well in LG - it requires that you're usually tactically boring in combat and that you ruthlessly force people to remember that you gave them bonuses to hit/damage. You get to dominate non-combat encounters if you want and you likely end up doing the most damage in combat(albeit indirectly) What other class lets you be the most powerful person in a party while not stepping on anyone else's toes? ;)
magebeast 02-03-07, 01:34 PM	it requires that you're usually tactically boring in combat and that you ruthlessly force people to remember that you gave them bonuses to hit/damage. This. I love playing my bard, but on the whole I do very little on my bard in combat. Toss up an inspirationally boosted bardic music and then shoot crossbow bolts for the rest of the round (the only advantage oration has over instruments, although now I wish I was a singer). If things are really nasty I might throw a sound burst or a silence, but largely I do nothing. On the plus side, a Bard can play up like no other. Diplomacy and Gather Info DCs simply don't scale as much (in my experience) the way that AC and HP do on the monsters you're fighting. If the party is physical damage heavy then your bardic music is just as usefull at level 3 as it is up until level 8 (when it bumps to +3/+3 with inspirational boost) - and it's still pretty freaking useful at any level. Case in point, the first mod I played after I reached level 3 was an APL 10 mod. I was helping to fill in a zero slot for some folks, and my friend who asked me to come thought it was "max APL 10." It was, of course, "minimum APL 10" so my poor bard got dragged along. I spent a lot of time running into corners and cowering while orating, but the hasted ranger and dual wielding rogue LOVED the bardic music. They wish that I was in their high level APL range rather than 5 right now :D
amnuxoll 02-03-07, 02:10 PM	Clerics, but sorcerers are a close second. I've always been the guy who plays the cleric even back in 1st and 2nd edition D&D when clerics were both weak and boring. I just like to feel useful and now that clerics are so powerful it's a double whammy. Sorcerers are a close second though. There are too many fun spells and metamagic feats on top of decent social skills. Wizards are too powergamey and way too much paperwork. It's too bad that sorcerers have been obsoleted by the LGCS' liberal magic item crafting rules. :AMN:
Mommy was an Orc 02-03-07, 02:16 PM	It's too bad that sorcerers have been obsoleted by the LGCS' liberal magic item crafting rules. :AMN: How so? Most significant items require 1st to 2nd level spells and reading them off a scroll isn't too hard. Pearls of Power are awfully nice, but they seem to be giving Memento Magic access and if you don't find that access, then Arcane Prep always works.
pimeister 02-03-07, 07:37 PM	I actually like playing my warmage. Now I know first hand all of the drawbacks in this environment, especially above lvl . . . eight or so. I ended up taking it to bonded summoner, due to me also liking that prestige class. Basically I get to muck around, putting 50-70 damage where-ever I want, to whatever I want while my now-huge-elemental runs around with ring of blades and fireshield.
Puggle Halfwine 02-03-07, 08:31 PM	Clerics. I find that roleplaying a person of faith gives some immediate backstory and depth to your character, particularly if you play a cleric of an immediately recognizable diety; Wee Jas, Kord, Pholtus, etc. Mechanics wise, I really like clerics due to their flexibility, toughness and the fact that you're always needed on tables.
Lomiat 02-03-07, 08:39 PM	I like wizards. I like arcane magic, and I like plotting and scheming. Most of what I like about wizards doesn't even make it into a gaming session (except in the back of my head), but I like the whole "methodical genius" aspect of the class. Knowledge checks, too, can be fun, especially when you make DC 25+ checks with only 1 rank in the skill. Sometimes, I get bummed when I find I've prepared the wrong spell selection for an adventure, but more often I enjoy the versatility available to my character that he can make himself any one of a multitude of caster types. And it's quite rewarding to have prepared exactly the right spell selection for an adventure. (Frequently, these days, I'll memorize a greater variety of spells of each level than a sorcerer of the same level could have learned. Just to prove a point. Especially when a local sorcerer adventures with my wizard.)
_metz_ 02-03-07, 09:16 PM	Rogues, Wizards, Clerics. In that order :) I love skils, versatitlty and the abilty to be funky and useful out of combat, as well as in it.
Eric Anondson 02-03-07, 11:49 PM	Divine themed melee warrior-types. Change deity, change weapon and fighting style, keep coming back to it. Its odd. Basically anywhere in the continuum between full caster cleric and plain warrior, somewhere in the middle.
magebeast 02-04-07, 03:11 AM	How so? Most significant items require 1st to 2nd level spells and reading them off a scroll isn't too hard. Pearls of Power are awfully nice, but they seem to be giving Memento Magic access and if you don't find that access, then Arcane Prep always works. Memento Magicas are 1.5x the cost of a pearl of power, and if a sorcerer wants to come even close to the savings a wizard has on crafting, they need to take craft wondrous which is a nice waste of a feat slot unless you're willing to take spells that immediately become worthless to you after you craft the item the spell allows you to make - for example, eagle's splendor for a cloak of charisma. (EDIT: It occurs to me now that I could buy a scroll of this spell for the purposes of crafting. Still, the point stands as I reiterate it later. Taking higher level spells just to craft something isn't necessarily an option.) Items from the DMG that have no spell requirement, and require wondrous alone: Boots of Elvenkind (creator must be an elf, though), Elixir of Swimming (requires ranks in swim), Ioun stones apparently as they list no specific spell requirements, pearls of power, and silversheen. Ioun stones are the only thing on that list I could imagine crafting for my sorcerer. Now, there are other items that you can make with spells common to sorcerers (bracers of armor only require mage armor), but at the same time you can't count on those common spells, and a sorcerer can't really afford to take a spell simply for the purposes of crafting. Spells are just about as precious as feats for a sorcerer. That said, I'm starting to note that sorcerers are not nearly as underpowered compared to wizards as I had thought. The power curve is weird. Wizards will pretty much always be wealthier, but in terms of raw damage dealing power a sorcerer has spots where they definitely exceed that of a wizard. Once a sorcerer hits fourth level they are more powerful in raw damage than a wizard until that wizard starts pumping out pearls. They lose out a bit at 5th due to lack of an AOE, but make up for it in raw usage at level 6 (due to a lack of 3rd level pearls, a wizard isn't going to have that many). The curve fluctuates like this the entire run of levels. I'll admit this is theorycrafting - I'll have a better idea in a few years when I've played the character out. But I think I'll be right.
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-07, 09:37 AM	Memento Magicas are 1.5x the cost of a pearl of power, and if a sorcerer wants to come even close to the savings a wizard has on crafting, they need to take craft wondrous which is a nice waste of a feat slot unless you're willing to take spells that immediately become worthless to you after you craft the item the spell allows you to make - for example, eagle's splendor for a cloak of charisma. (EDIT: It occurs to me now that I could buy a scroll of this spell for the purposes of crafting. Still, the point stands as I reiterate it later. Taking higher level spells just to craft something isn't necessarily an option.). One of the things you have to do is look at the cost of the scrolls involved and what you're likely using them for - this will help you out a lot as you're playing a Bard :) The majority of gold that a character has, at least until 12th level, is likely to be spent on upgrading the primary stat item and constitution. To buy and sell two items up to +6 costs 84K. With upgrade access, it costs 64K. A Wizard crafting only costs 32K. The cost to use scrolls is only 9.6K. Sure, you're not going to save somewhere between 32 to 52K, but you will save 22 to 42K, which is well worth it. I crafted a Vest of Resistance +2 at one point and then made a Pearl of Power 1st(my Bard) - I can't use a Pearl of Power 1st. I can hand a Pearl of Power to the Divine Caster and ask them to memorize Lesser Vigor. I currently have 7 Pearls of Power at 8th level and that represents 105 hp of healing if there's a Cleric or Druid in the party. That's a lot of healing at APL 6-10. And then that's ignoring the fun aspect of certain PrCs or Bards for high UMD scores - a Luckstone only requires 20 scrolls of Divine Favor as an example.
magebeast 02-04-07, 11:38 AM	One of the things you have to do is look at the cost of the scrolls involved and what you're likely using them for - this will help you out a lot as you're playing a Bard :) The majority of gold that a character has, at least until 12th level, is likely to be spent on upgrading the primary stat item and constitution. To buy and sell two items up to +6 costs 84K. With upgrade access, it costs 64K. A Wizard crafting only costs 32K. The cost to use scrolls is only 9.6K. Sure, you're not going to save somewhere between 32 to 52K, but you will save 22 to 42K, which is well worth it. I crafted a Vest of Resistance +2 at one point and then made a Pearl of Power 1st(my Bard) - I can't use a Pearl of Power 1st. I can hand a Pearl of Power to the Divine Caster and ask them to memorize Lesser Vigor. I currently have 7 Pearls of Power at 8th level and that represents 105 hp of healing if there's a Cleric or Druid in the party. That's a lot of healing at APL 6-10. And then that's ignoring the fun aspect of certain PrCs or Bards for high UMD scores - a Luckstone only requires 20 scrolls of Divine Favor as an example. Fair enough. After I went back to bed, I thought about it some more and decided to come back to this thread and rescind my statements about crafting. As you've shown, I simply don't have enough experience or know enough about it to say!
Munkwunk 02-04-07, 02:03 PM	I usually prefer to play the smashy characters, but that can mean anything from barbarian to melee-focused cleric (of which I have both). It's fun to dish out crazy amounts of damage, sure, but I also like to have the ability to stand up to 100 points of damage. Second on the list is clerics, sicne I have two: a smashy cleric and a heal station. They both play very differently, but it's always good to know that someone at the table is playing a cleric, and I don't mind being that someone. Recently I played Fane of the Drow with my healer cleric, and for the entire mod the only spells I cast were Conjuration (Healing) spells, save for a couple Prot. Evils before going on to the final encounter. The other players said "Gosh, I feel sorry for you; that must be boring not having much else to do," but I enjoy just kicking back and making good use of spells which put my party back together.
_m_ 02-04-07, 11:29 PM	Rogues, Wizards, Clerics. In that order :) I love skils, versatitlty and the abilty to be funky and useful out of combat, as well as in it. but... you dont have a wizard...
Rerednaw 02-04-07, 11:56 PM	So far my experience with LG has been limited. I guess my favorite character has been my bard. He's only level 2, but that makes him my second highest character. I have a wizard 5 but he's having a really tough time in LG. He tends to drop to 0 or negatives about every mod. He only has about 2k in gold and only core access. I'm hoping Red Hand will help that. If he can last till level 7, pearls of power may help bring up a bit in effectiveness. I like the bard because I was lucky enough to play an investigative mod and he got liberal use of his social skills. Of course, he sucks in combat. I like not having to manage spell selection every day though. I'm also thinking about starting a druid or cleric, but given my experience with the bard I may try another sorceror. My first sorceror (my first LG character) died on his 3rd AR.
magebeast 02-05-07, 12:20 AM	I like the bard because I was lucky enough to play an investigative mod and he got liberal use of his social skills. Of course, he sucks in combat. I like not having to manage spell selection every day though. No! You do not suck in combat! You are not active in combat, but you do not suck I promise. Make sure one of the spells you take at 3rd level is inspirational boost out of the spell compendium. Bread and butter. If you have a single melee fighter at the table, they will love you. Power attacking two-handed fighter? You just gave them a free +6 damage because they can power attack for 2 without losing any to-hit and they get the +2 from your bard song. Flurrying monk? You just made it so flurry doesn't cost them anything, and if they hit both times you've added four damage a round to that monk. On a table with a single healer, an archer, and a few close combat fighters you could potentially provide as much or more damage than anyone else at the table!
Rerednaw 02-05-07, 09:25 AM	No! You do not suck in combat! You are not active in combat, but you do not suck I promise. Make sure one of the spells you take at 3rd level is inspirational boost out of the spell compendium. Bread and butter... It's a long wait till 3rd level. As I said, sucks in combat. :) Once he hits 3rd, he will be able to make more of a contribution. As it is now, he's been basically one-shotted every mod. Main tank runs off and I'm in a direct charge line, I'm right next to a mob in every ambush, that sort of thing. 2 more hit points per level than an average clothie and armor class about the same or worse means squishy. :D
Mortepierre 02-05-07, 09:41 AM	2 more hit points per level than an average clothie and armor class about the same or worse means squishy. :D I wonder how it could be "or worse"... My main is a wizard and I would kill for the bard's ability to use light armors and wear them without a spell failure roll. I would happily spend my days in a mithril shirt then <sigh>
Rerednaw 02-05-07, 10:31 AM	I wonder how it could be "or worse"... My main is a wizard and I would kill for the bard's ability to use light armors and wear them without a spell failure roll. I would happily spend my days in a mithril shirt then <sigh> And likewise my bard would love to have full arcane access and crunchy goodness. Trade-off is the name of the game. Unless you're a cleric of course. :) My mage always has Mage Armor up. That leaves 2 other armor-type spells. Before entering a dungeon he can cast Alter Self. At 10 minutes/level it has a decent duration, longer if extended of course. In combat depending on the tactical situation, he may buff himself with Shield. Final AC: Alter Self (Trog) + Mage Armor + Shield = +14 AC. I have never actually done this. I watched the other mage in the party do this and was shocked his AC was the highest in the party. Of course the big trade off is during the first round he was buffing I chose not to buff and cast a battlefield control spell instead. Even though I took out half the opposing force, the return alpha still dropped me. :D Okay this sounds too much like a thread hijack. I like my bard for what he can do and I like my wizard for what he can do. Now if I get a class that does both...maybe sublime chord?
GrahamWills 02-05-07, 10:38 AM	I guess I'm the first one to say it would be a monk. The main reason is that you are always useful; you are never in a situation where you are ineffective. Of course, everyone else is better than you at their thing, but it does mean you get into every situation ... * Against medium or smaller-sized creatures, you can pretty much grapple them at will. My favorite target @APL 8 was a tricked out dwarf in full plate. AC 35. Grappled and pinned and less than one in a thousand chance of escaping ... * Against anything else, you are an adequate fighter. Not as good as a real one (although a 6 monk/2 fighter doesn't do badly), but definitely useful. * Mobility is very valuable. You never spend a round advancing to the front. * You make your saves. The succubus that is charming your party, one-by-one? Not you. And she's only 100' away. Charge and grapple her. End of threat. * You make your saves. It's worth repeating. Fireball spells can be ignored pretty safely. * Your AC against ethereal touch attacks is the same as your regular AC. No issues with ghosts ... * Reasonable number of skills (especially compared with fighters/paladins/etc.) means you are generally usefull. I took an elf and maxed out spot and listen (+22ish at APL8), but doing the same for hide/move silent and the like is also perfectly reasonable. A monk/thief would be a fun character. Flurry of sneak attacks! * If there isn't a rogue in the party, welcome to the spotlight. You are the best backup. If there is, say high to your flanking buddy. My favorite things done as a monk: * Charging people on horseback; grappling them and then stealing their horses. Even if they escape the grapple, they have to leave their horse. They *hate* that. * 100' cliff dive into water. Or taking 10 to jump 30' gaps. * Irritating the heck out of archers. My least favorite things about beign a monk: * Only having one neck and three things I want to hang on it. * Shurikens should be cooler, but just aren't. * Expeditious retreat doesn't stack with your speed bonus
kenobi65 02-05-07, 01:25 PM	It's a long wait till 3rd level. As I said, sucks in combat. :) Once he hits 3rd, he will be able to make more of a contribution. Agreed. While one could argue that most classes are pretty weak / useless at very low levels, the bard, especially at 1st level, is close to being baggage: - Only one use of bardic music per day; while some Intro modules seem to take pains to space out their combats across in-game days to give PCs a chance to recover resources, there's no guarantee of that (and even less so in "straight" APL 2 modules) - Only have 0-level spells, which is an even-bigger gimp, IMO. 2nd level helps, but even then, you only get 1 1st-level spell per day (you did give yourself a good Charisma score, right? :D). It does seem to take until 3rd level (at which point you have Inspirational Boost, as well as enough songs to cover the typical module's combats) for the bard to really be a solid combat contributor. (And, please note: I like bards. :D)
bitznarf 02-05-07, 01:48 PM	It does seem to take until 3rd level (at which point you have Inspirational Boost, as well as enough songs to cover the typical module's combats) for the bard to really be a solid combat contributor. (And, please note: I like bards. :D) One way to get around this is to make an archer bard, ie point blank and precise at first level allowing you to contribute. I've found that the bards with more then 14 in Cha tend towards the trend you were descrbing as often Str is a dump stat, leaving any attack actions limited to pretty much 'I assist' for a while in melee. This being said, 3rd level is still a great level for a (human) archer bard, getting both inspirational boost and rapid shot. :twocents:
kenobi65 02-05-07, 02:30 PM	One way to get around this is to make an archer bard, ie point blank and precise at first level allowing you to contribute. I've found that the bards with more then 14 in Cha tend towards the trend you were descrbing as often Str is a dump stat, leaving any attack actions limited to pretty much 'I assist' for a while in melee. This being said, 3rd level is still a great level for a (human) archer bard, getting both inspirational boost and rapid shot. Though, at that point, you're sacrificing Improved Initiative, which lets you get that Inspire Courage rolling faster. It's a trade-off...do you want to do the Bard thing as well as you can, or do you want to do something else, too?
bitznarf 02-05-07, 03:03 PM	Though, at that point, you're sacrificing Improved Initiative, which lets you get that Inspire Courage rolling faster. It's a trade-off...do you want to do the Bard thing as well as you can, or do you want to do something else, too? Well, in my opinion 'the bard thing' is that the bard can take a shot at most things and be effective at them. I don't see Inspire Courage as 'the' bard thing; I see it as 'a' bard thing. True, bard song is (mostly) restricted to bard's but if that is the one trick pony that a bard is going on, something is wrong, or at the very least, some things could be improved from a purely mechanical standpoint. I really don't like the bards that feel being a bard is an excuse for not doing much in combat. With that said, I do understand and appreciate how effective Inspire Courage can be, adding as much if not more damage as any single other PC at the table. -Dale
Mommy was an Orc 02-05-07, 04:09 PM	Agreed. While one could argue that most classes are pretty weak / useless at very low levels, the bard, especially at 1st level, is close to being baggage: - Only one use of bardic music per day; while some Intro modules seem to take pains to space out their combats across in-game days to give PCs a chance to recover resources, there's no guarantee of that (and even less so in "straight" APL 2 modules) - Only have 0-level spells, which is an even-bigger gimp, IMO. That's missing one big element of Bards - they're allowed to use scrolls where their caster level is high enough - i.e. Bards can use scrolls of Grease and Sleep without a chance of spell failure at 1st level. With a decent UMD score of +10(easily achievable by having 5 ranks in Spellcraft/UMD, 16 Cha), there's a 50% chance of activating any 1st level caster scroll at 2nd level. Scrolls of Divine CLW, Magic Missle, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc... Sure, it isn't 100% chance, but in the context that you've used your Inspire Courage and now are just concerned about contributing, it isn't that bad...
Rerednaw 02-05-07, 04:57 PM	Well, in my opinion...but if that is the one trick pony that a bard is going on, something is wrong, or at the very least, some things could be improved from a purely mechanical standpoint. I really don't like the bards that feel being a bard is an excuse for not doing much in combat... -Dale I agree with your statement that mechnically, the bard can be improved. The bard can 'try' to do many things. He only does a few things well. In my other campaign my Inspirational Boosted Inspire Courage accounted for approximately 60% of total party damage (including turning misses to hits, etc.) over the course of the campaign. I was hard put to justify other actions on his part during combat. I'm not giving up on my LG bard. I just have to wait until he can actually do more. Right now he has been averaging about one face plant per mod. :D
_m_ 02-05-07, 05:13 PM	And likewise my bard would love to have full arcane access and crunchy goodness. Trade-off is the name of the game. Unless you're a cleric of course. :) My mage always has Mage Armor up. That leaves 2 other armor-type spells. Before entering a dungeon he can cast Alter Self. At 10 minutes/level it has a decent duration, longer if extended of course. In combat depending on the tactical situation, he may buff himself with Shield. Final AC: Alter Self (Trog) + Mage Armor + Shield = +14 AC. I have never actually done this. I watched the other mage in the party do this and was shocked his AC was the highest in the party. Of course the big trade off is during the first round he was buffing I chose not to buff and cast a battlefield control spell instead. Even though I took out half the opposing force, the return alpha still dropped me. :D Okay this sounds too much like a thread hijack. I like my bard for what he can do and I like my wizard for what he can do. Now if I get a class that does both...maybe sublime chord? i frequently... actually wait... i always have the highest ac in my area just from self buffs. Greater mage armour, extended, shield, polymorph or alter self, a few bits of DR here and there, a few shadow buffs. over 30 with no trouble at all. never need it tho, hide > ac of course, my familiar had over 40 at lvl 7, so... oh, and on topic, my favourite class is wizard.
Japangirl 02-05-07, 05:18 PM	Off topic, highest standing AC I see is our tank with 49, 53 with Barkskin. On topic, I am not sure my favorite class. I like skills people though, rogues and bards and even wizards with 20 Int have lots to play with. I like people with magic over those without, and I think it says something that all my characters have d6 hit dice or smaller.
CdrcJsn 02-05-07, 05:26 PM	I'm not giving up on my LG bard. I just have to wait until he can actually do more. Right now he has been averaging about one face plant per mod. :D Considering the fact that you said pretty much the same thing about your wizard, I'm inclined to think it has more to do with your play style than any weakness of the bard. Bards at 1st level are really no weaker than rogues are. They have the same armor and HPs as rogues and can use shields (unlike rogues). As for doing damage, rogues get sneak attack but 90% of combat at 1st level will be in a situation where sneak is not possible for a rogue, whereas 100% of combats 1/day will be one where Bards can use their inspire courage. At 3rd level, with Inspirational Boost from SpC, they can give a bonus of +2 hit/+2 dmg, which is almost mechanically equivalent to the effects of hit/damage provided by a Mass Bull's Strength, a 6th level spell. Like other posters have said, the only 'weak' bards (and rogues) are those that don't give ANY consideration to combat when building their characters. I play a single classed melee bard that has a 'walking around' AC of 29 and uses power attack and arcane strike to do significant damage on his own. At 9th level, he did 114 points of damage to a purple worm in one round, and that was after he gave the rest of the party Haste, Inspire Courage for +3hit/+4dmg, and Inspire Greatness on the archer (+2 competence to hit, 17 temporary hit points, +1 fort save). Thanks to Harmonize before combat started, he was able to do the above party buffs in only 2 rounds and was able to do the big hit on the worm on round 3 with Blink active on himself (allowing him to 5' step out of any grapples). If you actually did the math, his use of Inspire Courage did more damage than any single person of the party, adding a virtual 7th party member that does damage. So bards aren't weak. They have the same BAB as rogues and if built correctly, can do as much damage as any other class. It's just that some players don't give a thought to combat when building them.
bitznarf 02-05-07, 05:34 PM	As for doing damage, rogues get sneak attack but 90% of combat at 1st level will be in a situation where sneak is not possible for a rogue... Can't really say I agree with you on that to be honest. However, it could be a regional difference.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-06-07, 03:40 AM	Barbarian. At least at the first level. Especially one with a positive intellegence score and tries to hide his illiteracy. And there's always 'Bob smash!'.
kenobi65 02-06-07, 10:13 AM	Barbarian. At least at the first level. Especially one with a positive intellegence score and tries to hide his illiteracy. Those exist?? I thought they were an urban legend, like alligators in the sewers. :D
Sieylianna 02-06-07, 12:36 PM	Those exist?? I thought they were an urban legend, like alligators in the sewers. :D My Brightsands Suel human barbarian has a 14 Intelligence (and three levels of wizard). Ed
Rerednaw 02-06-07, 04:04 PM	Can't really say I agree with you on that to be honest. However, it could be a regional difference. Thread hijack... Could be. In all the intro and APL2 mods the majority of the combats involve: 1) Main bad guy tank gets to choose battlefield, so he picks a choke point where the party is bottled up and no one can flank. Maneuvers/tactics that would enable sneak attack usuable disable target. cf. Sleep and so forth. 2) Undead, plants, and animated objects. 3) Unhappy rogues.
kenobi65 02-06-07, 04:38 PM	My Brightsands Suel human barbarian has a 14 Intelligence (and three levels of wizard). It must be the heat, then. ;)
bitznarf 02-06-07, 04:59 PM	Thread hijack... Could be. In all the intro and APL2 mods the majority of the combats involve: 1) Main bad guy tank gets to choose battlefield, so he picks a choke point where the party is bottled up and no one can flank. Maneuvers/tactics that would enable sneak attack usuable disable target. cf. Sleep and so forth. 2) Undead, plants, and animated objects. 3) Unhappy rogues. I really don't like assumptions like this one. Once again, the intro mods in my region (of the 5 out of 6 I have played) have not had these sorts of issues. Not all intro mods have the majority of combats laid out as you described. To be frank, I've seen more of this sort of thing at higher APL's (4 and above). Once again, your experience may vary, this I just what I have seen first hand. -Dale
Bob_the_Theurge 02-06-07, 06:22 PM	I try not to play the same class (or at least concept) twice. It's more fun for me that way, exploring new options.
copper_wyrmling 02-06-07, 07:05 PM	I try not to play the same class (or at least concept) twice. *giggles* I try not to play the same concept twice, but that has very little to do with character class! I recently played a game with my Neutral Good cleric 8 / sacred exorcist 6 / contemplative 1 of Joramy on a table with a Neutral Good cleric 7 / sacred exorcist 5 / contemplative 1 of Pholtus. Class-wise, the builds are virtually identical... yet the two PCs in question have entirely different feat trees and stat arrays, and when we compared spell lists, it immediately became obvious that their approach to adventuring was very different. By the end of the module it was also abundantly obvious that their personalities and concepts were completely disparate as well - both were professional fiend-hunters, but they approached it from entirely different directions (Yolande inspires her allies with righteous fury, flings bolts of glory and wades into melee with a holy brambled quarterstaff; Mareyl's speciality is scarily effective Dismissal and Banishment spells). They did get along very well, though :) Similarly, my little gnome sorcerer (illusionist, dragon researcher, crumhorn player and collector of interesting hats) is very different in personality and concept to my high-level sorcerer/wild mage (the sweetest most generous Ur-Flan-trained dragonkin necromancer you will ever meet). Most of the classes are pretty customizable...
_m_ 02-07-07, 06:23 PM	Similarly, my little gnome sorcerer (collector of interesting hats) lol, what a fascinating hoby.... my gnome collects bodyparts :D
cycloptic_squirrel 02-07-07, 11:46 PM	My Brightsands Suel human barbarian has a 14 Intelligence (and three levels of wizard). Ed My barbarian was actually a somewhat civilized fellow who used to be able to read, but found a spellbook that screwed with his head (also made him angry). It took about 4 TUs, but he eventually figured out how to decipher that spellbook (on his 5th wizard level).
Rerednaw 02-08-07, 10:19 AM	lol, what a fascinating hoby.... my gnome collects bodyparts :D My bard collects brightly colored sashes. :)
Crazy Boro 02-08-07, 11:21 AM	lol, what a fascinating hoby.... my gnome collects bodyparts :D My gnome is similar, but with some things he likes to drag the whole body back. :D
_m_ 02-08-07, 06:34 PM	My gnome is similar, but with some things he likes to drag the whole body back. :D refrigerated bag of holding. alvin has his own monster manual, complete with a sample of each creature.
Akhamshyy 02-08-07, 07:08 PM	The bodies? But, why? My dwarf just takes the souls of the really important and naughty ones.
Crazy Boro 02-08-07, 07:21 PM	The bodies? But, why? My dwarf just takes the souls of the really important and naughty ones. He's a dragon disciple with hopes of opening up his own themed bar (along with an inn if possible). He nabs the dragon corpses (or heads if they are too big) and gets them stuffed so he can have some interesting decorations for when he might be able to actually open it. Other creatures, if they're interesting to him, get a part taken as a momento of their glorious meeting.