Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 06-13-07, 09:28 AM	My vote is for Universal Solvent. Same cost as the dreaded tanglefoot bag and the only substance known in LG to negate the tanglefoot bag after you've been stickied with the goo. For that matter, I'd like all the DMG items 750 gp or less to be open. Well except for hirelings or modern/future tech. :)
haferka 06-13-07, 09:34 AM	Wilding Clasps.
Potato Weasel 06-13-07, 10:23 AM	I'd just like for there to be regional or specific environs access to 'stores' the way they've done the griffons nest in greyhawk. I mean, I've played in several modules where the only way you get access (regional) to 'famous' stores is by saving the persons life, etc. which to me seems like a bad way to run a business. Surely it cant be -that- hard to come up with a few small lists of items/enhancements that are fairly straightforward and not game breaking? Even a TU offset or price markup would be worth it to ensure my character has certain access to -something- aside from stat boost items. I've been looking through my ar's and I have 6 access' to armor enhancements in over 100 ar's of play, thats including two old upgrades of +1 to +2 armor, a ghost touch enhancement and a glamered enhancement.
amnuxoll 06-13-07, 10:27 AM	I've forgotten the name of the item but it grants a +10 bonus on concentration checks. :AMN:
Potato Weasel 06-13-07, 10:29 AM	Access whining aside I want the Angel helm and celestial skins out of the MIC, they're just cool for a good adventurer. A really great armor enhancement is blueshine- makes the armor immune to rust and acid, as well as the healing enhancements. Aside from that, most of the set items are good and multi purpose, and i would love a fiery tunic (grants a fire shield and fiery weapons, i dont think i need to elaborate) From what I've seen in recent mods, access has suddenly gotten much much better. (:
GorTeX 06-13-07, 10:37 AM	Dwarven crafted items. :)
gomeztoo 06-13-07, 12:04 PM	My PC wants access to traps, secret doors, a permanent teleporation circle (two-way), and dungeon-bred guardian monsters :P
_metz_ 06-13-07, 12:05 PM	Glamered weapons. Thats not a greatsword - thats my pink parasol! lol I know its not technically legal. How about that submarine thingy? apparition of kwalish! I want to see more funky stuff.
nobodez 06-13-07, 12:22 PM	Augment Crystals. Why: They are very useful, the least versions are fairly inexpensive, and someone can stock up on them and spread them around to the other PCs. All Items under 750 gp (including "1st level wand (50 charges)) from the MIC. This would allow wands, scrolls, and potions of any Open (including Open just for the character) spell. This would of course exclude any rules items not allowed in LG (including anything explicitly psionic, incarnum, or otherwise). Why: Well, if only to get access to a 1st level caster potion of Enlarge Person. Also, if they allow the partial wands, that would also be cool. Charges/day items (Lightning Gauntlets for instance). This would also include the eternal wands originally introduced in Eberron, but no in the MIC separate from the Eberron source. Why: They allow you to have re-suable expendable resources. As for the Eternal Wands, they'd allow wizards to use eternal wands of Cure Light Wounds.
Timlagor 06-13-07, 01:19 PM	I'd most like ACcess to not having to use Random Loot tables for purchase access ;) [my biggest gripe now that the 3rd level rule has finally gone] ..sadly the Circle seem to think there are good reasons for using those tables ...but they said that about the 3rd level rule for a long time too.
Britt 06-13-07, 01:29 PM	I can tell you that the least and lesser augment crystals will probably not be going out in any IUZ metaregional or regional mods. I am ok with the greater crystals, as they require a +3 weapon to use, but the least and lesser are too cheap for the effects, imo.
Mattastrophic 06-13-07, 03:26 PM	Glamered weapons. Thats not a greatsword - thats my pink parasol! lol I know its not technically legal. You can actually accomplish the same effect with a Hat of Disguise. As for what I'd like to see: -Belt of Magnificence +6 -Veil of Allure -Freedom Armor (MIC) -Twilight Armor -Hummingbird Familiar (Dragon mag) -access to add ability enhancements to magic items (MIC) -Wings of Flying -That bardic harp that lets you give your allies fast healing (MIC) -Starmantle Cloak (Exalted Deeds) (Starmantle spell would be cool, too) -Matt
Britt 06-13-07, 03:40 PM	Belt of magnificence will never be going out again in LG, I believe. I don't know what will happen with the existing ones, but I'm pretty sure we agreed to not give them out anymore. BoED access is extremely rare, if you ever see it again. Don't entertain any ideas of finding anything from that book, let alone a specific thing. The others I don't remember off the top of my head, though twilight armor strikes a bell; I think there was something wrong with that.
GreatSiron 06-13-07, 03:45 PM	I'd like to find access to a scarb of golembane and the enchancment from Libris Mortis that lets you crit undead. It would make my rogue's life a lot easier.
Lupo 06-13-07, 03:59 PM	I'd like to find access to a scarb of golembane and the enchancment from Libris Mortis that lets you crit undead. It would make my rogue's life a lot easier. due to the occupation of the amulet slot, scarabs of golembane are not as good as they look :rolleyes: they are nice if one suspect golems around ;) my 13th and my 10th level character have them, and at best hand them out. my druid even hangs it around the neck of his animal companion, works fine. ciao martin m.
Mattastrophic 06-13-07, 04:22 PM	Belt of magnificence will never be going out again in LG, I believe. I don't know what will happen with the existing ones, but I'm pretty sure we agreed to not give them out anymore. BoED access is extremely rare, if you ever see it again. Don't entertain any ideas of finding anything from that book, let alone a specific thing. The others I don't remember off the top of my head, though twilight armor strikes a bell; I think there was something wrong with that. Giving out the ability to add ability enhancements to existing magic items would eliminate the need for Belts of Magnificence to save on slots. They'd be accessible to even non-crafters, and for a less than 100,000gp, 8000XP, and 40TUs, as well. Book of Exalted Deeds access, I know, I'm dreaming here. But that's the point of a wishlist, right? Twilight Armor is a very cool item. +1 armor enhancement bonus that decreases ASF by 10%, so wizards can use a Mithral Chain Shirt. The ability enhancement upgrades to existing items, though, especially if made Open to all, would best go along with the paradigm shift in magic items that the designers are going for with Magic Item Compendium, by giving us more options than "Amulet of Heath or Periapt of Wisdom, Belt of Giant Strength, Gloves of Dexterity," and so on. -Matt
Swiftbrook 06-13-07, 04:34 PM	Favor: Sell one item that you own for 100% of it's value.
Genghis Cohen 06-13-07, 06:39 PM	Belt of magnificence will never be going out again in LG, I believe. I don't know what will happen with the existing ones, but I'm pretty sure we agreed to not give them out anymore.Is the campaign leadership becoming lactose intolerant? BoED access is extremely rare, if you ever see it again. Don't entertain any ideas of finding anything from that book, let alone a specific thing.Soulfire armor enchantment access? Puhleeeeez? Well, a few of the other things that I want are this: +1 stat boosting ioun stone for 2,000gp. I've never seen this, but it would be very helpful to a lot of characters. My dwarf, who has a 15 dex from COR4-01 Shedding Scales would love one. My druid wants needs wilding clasps from the MIC and the Mantle of the Beast from the CC. My wizard would greatly appreciate access to a Runestaff of Power from the MIC.
Genghis Cohen 06-13-07, 06:44 PM	A really great armor enhancement is blueshine- makes the armor immune to rust and acid, as well as the healing enhancements.Great call! There is also Everbright from the MIC which provides the same protection to weapons. This type of access should be common in a Living campaign as insurance. In a home campaign, if 50,000gp of equipment becomes worthless, the DM can compensate. In a Living campaign, you're SoL.
ToddMorgan 06-13-07, 08:28 PM	Wand O' Shield for my casters and dragon disciple ;p
Hariman 06-13-07, 09:13 PM	I think the item I have in mind for my rogue/conjurer is the "Vest of the Rogue", which adds +1d6 Sneak Attack if you have sneak attack. (Also works for Sudden Strike and Skirmish.) Augment Crystals would be really cool, the Truedeath Crystals would be a blessing for any rogue or scout. Memento Magicka and Pearls of Power (Especially Mementos) would be nice to see a little more often. (Or a lot more often, for the Mementos.) And weapon/armor enhancements of all stripes are high on the list. If I could only get access to Glowing Brilliance for a melee weapons for my Rogue/Wizard. Or Sacred/Holy/any damage increasing enhancement for a weapon. And the Twilight armor ability is just really good. Thistledown Armor is what is broken. (No ASF. Period.)
Arvagor 06-13-07, 09:18 PM	There's an item in the MIC -- don't know if it's an augment crystal or bracers -- that allows a rogue to sneak attack things that are otherwise unsneakable (plants, constructs, undead). Had a daily limit (I think -- 3x ?), so didn't seem too powerful... ;)
King Kashue 06-14-07, 01:53 AM	How about that submarine thingy? apparition of kwalish! I had a favor that allowed any item from the DMG, regardless of cost. I seriously contemplated buying the Apparatus of Kwalish, just to say I had it. :D I ended up buying a ring of blinking (which is oh so nice)...
Maesto 06-14-07, 03:00 AM	Britt - even the +3 requirement on the greater augment crystals isn't enough. GMW from a 12th level caster meets the requirements, and by APL 12, is being handed out often enough anyway.
Frumpkis 06-14-07, 03:01 AM	As for what I'd like to see: -Veil of Allure My spellcasting/enchantment-focused bard was really lucky to find adventure access to that, and he even had enough gold at the time to buy it too! :D Favor: Sell one item that you own for 100% of it's value. This has appeared, in a now-retired NMR metaregional. My same bard used that favour to sell his Cloak of Charisma +4 at full price, to pay for a Cloak of Charisma +6 (which he got access to on the same mod!) As for what I'd like to see: more access to make items out of darkwood. I mean c'mon: I see access to mithral all the time, and adamantine less so but still occasionally.....but darkwood, it gets the short end of the stick (pun intended ;)). I've only seen access to it through a Duchy of Urnst rangers' metaorg. EDIT: for the most part, though, I've been pretty happy with the amount/type of access I've been seeing. Especially with the latest LGCS making so many adventuring gear "staples" (Heward's Handy Haversack, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Vests of Resistance) Open access.
Madfox11 06-14-07, 04:34 AM	Britt - even the +3 requirement on the greater augment crystals isn't enough. GMW from a 12th level caster meets the requirements, and by APL 12, is being handed out often enough anyway. I know why people would argue this way, but I find it somewhat weak... expact table variation on this one.
copper_wyrmling 06-14-07, 07:10 AM	I know why people would argue this way, but I find it somewhat weak... expact table variation on this one. Would you mind letting me know why you'd rule against it? The precedent from the FAQ seems to be that temporary effects have the same effect as permanent ones unless noted otherwise (although it only specifically talks about ability scores, but I can't find a ruling anywhere saying that the converse holds and temporary and permanent effects should be treated differently). I would like to know, if I'm missing something (I play a L12 sorc with GMW, she's seen access to a greater truedeath crystal - I won't buy it for myself but I know there are people in my area who have that access on melee types). On-topic for the thread, my high-level cleric of Joramy has all the access she could possibly want (strand of prayer beads, full rod of quicken spell, tome of wisdom, and special ritual to give her the Fire subtype). A full rod of empower spell would've been nice too, but I really can't complain about her situation :) My L10 dervish keeps missing armbands of might access by one APL, and would still really like some (so please authors, keep putting them in mods!) He'd also like a starmetal falchion, or generic starmetal / adamantine access that he could use to get a falchion. He's seen adamantine weapons once or twice, but never a falchion and never a generic "any adamantine weapon" favor; he's never seen starmetal at all. He would've loved the Maiming enhancement, but the MIC changed it, so not any more :( Boots of speed and eyes of the eagle would've been nice, before he burned "any item below X cost from the DMG" favors to get them. I don't have my MIC here with me (it's back in the US with a friend), so can't really give a list of stuff he'd like from there... but my purchase priorities at the moment include upgrading his belt to +6, buying +4 dex gloves, upgrading his con amulet to +4, putting Holy on his weapon, and saving up for his (metaregional access) ring of freedom of movement, so he has plenty to spend money on :) Stuff my L12 sorcerer would like to see access to: - Runestaffs :drool: (any and all, but especially evocation and divination) (MIC) - Full metamagic rods of anything, but especially energy substitution - Lesser metamagic rod of quicken spell - Orange ioun stone - Ring of arcane might (CA) - Ring of arcane supremacy (CM, I think - the one that lets you reroll caster level checks) - Any of the nifty MIC items that actually make your spells better (e.g. give CL bonuses for types of spells, bonus damage with spells, extra effects for some spells, etc) She doesn't want memento magicas (although they are great for bards), skill-boosters (I like that PC's skills, but not enough to spend boatloads of money on something that's a secondary function to her spellcasting: I've already spent about 10k on skill-boosters), items that are completely replicated by her spells, lesser metamagic rods other than quicken (the spells they affect aren't worth a standard action by her level), or anything that takes a cloak slot. Mostly what I'd like to see is items that help her primary role, her spellcasting - in the same way that melee types get weapons that directly enhance their primary role.
gomeztoo 06-14-07, 07:53 AM	Favor: Sell one item that you own for 100% of it's value. Have seen this. Didn't get it. Wish I had...
Cardinal Teplin 06-14-07, 08:49 AM	sandals of harmonius balance (Complete adventurer) Not that powerful for the price, but oh, so seriously cool.
Britt 06-14-07, 09:27 AM	I don't mind the greater crystals because, even with GMW, the price scales up a decent amount at the greater level, the impact isn't as severe by the time you can get a +3 GMW, and even with all that (with the True Death Crystal, for instance), it's like spending 10K for a magic item that makes one 3rd/4th level particular spell of CL 12+ have an additional cool effect. Since very, very few people are going to have +3 weapons without GMW, that's the main effect. That seems pretty balanced, considering you have to have that particular spell prepped and used, it only works with that buff, you then wouldn't be able to swap the crystal to another weapon easily (unless you have multiple GMWs), and it only lasts as long as the buff. I would still have priced them maybe a bit higher, but it's not so out of line that I care that much.
King Kashue 06-14-07, 11:51 AM	Wings of Flying... I would looooooove to get these.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-14-07, 01:17 PM	In general, I'd like to see some armor enhancements from the MIC; they just seem more fun than ones in the DMG. My warrior-mage would like a lesser rod of extend, for obvious reasons. My cleric and her cohort would love to see Paired shields from the Minis Handbook. Not holding my breath for that one, though. My gnome would like a cell phone.
Bogjob 06-14-07, 02:14 PM	I would kill for Holy Access or Sacred, only had access to Sacred once and it was my 3rd AR with adventure access, needless to say I couldn't afford it :(
trollbill 06-14-07, 02:41 PM	Rune Staves. I am tired of seeing all the Arcanist based rewards on most ARs being so Wizardcentric. Spontaneous spellcasters deserve some love, too.
Hariman 06-14-07, 03:39 PM	I don't mind the greater crystals because, even with GMW, the price scales up a decent amount at the greater level, the impact isn't as severe by the time you can get a +3 GMW, and even with all that (with the True Death Crystal, for instance), it's like spending 10K for a magic item that makes one 3rd/4th level particular spell of CL 12+ have an additional cool effect. Since very, very few people are going to have +3 weapons without GMW, that's the main effect. That seems pretty balanced, considering you have to have that particular spell prepped and used, it only works with that buff, you then wouldn't be able to swap the crystal to another weapon easily (unless you have multiple GMWs), and it only lasts as long as the buff. I would still have priced them maybe a bit higher, but it's not so out of line that I care that much. But that's the intent. The Augment Crystals are meant to be low cost alternatives to "Golf Bag Weapons" and other such things (Like "Night Armor" AKA, light armor to sleep in.) Although, mechanically, yes, I do agree that you get a LOT out of augment crystals. A least Truedeath crystal (ANY truedeath crystal) is almost an absolute must for a rogue/ninja/scout etc. Oh well. I'll just hope for Greater Truedeath Crystal access and the money to buy it. Of course, using it will be the hard part.
kenobi65 06-14-07, 04:18 PM	+1 stat boosting ioun stone for 2,000gp. I've never seen this, but it would be very helpful to a lot of characters. My dwarf, who has a 15 dex from COR4-01 Shedding Scales would love one. +1 stat boost items simply don't exist in 3E/3.5 (with the exception of the stat-enhancing books, which are a completely different mechanic), and that was an explicit decision on the part of the designers. The reason is exactly what you'd like to exploit: for some characters (those with an odd-numbered score), it'd be a cheaper way to get the same effect as the even-numbered item, while, for those with an even-numbered score, such an item has no benefit at all. With the stat-boosts limited to even-numbered boosts (+2, +4, +6), the items have the same net effect (+1 / +2 / +3 to the ability bonus) for everybody. And, finally, a +1 booster with no body-slot limitation, like an ioun stone, would be way underpriced at 2K, given that a +2 booster ioun stone is 8K.
kenobi65 06-14-07, 04:19 PM	I would kill for Holy Access or Sacred, only had access to Sacred once and it was my 3rd AR with adventure access, needless to say I couldn't afford it :( Agreed! The only time I've ever seen Holy access was in a regional module, in which it was only offered to members of the church of Rao (and, of course, I was playing my Heironean). I'd also love to get access to Merciful. I understand that in some regions (e.g., Ket), it's common, but I don't think I've ever seen it.
King Kashue 06-14-07, 04:31 PM	I would kill for Holy Access or Sacred, only had access to Sacred once and it was my 3rd AR with adventure access, needless to say I couldn't afford it :( Agreed! The only time I've ever seen Holy access was in a regional module, in which it was only offered to members of the church of Rao (and, of course, I was playing my Heironean). I'd also love to get access to Merciful. I understand that in some regions (e.g., Ket), it's common, but I don't think I've ever seen it. I've got multiple Holy access on multiple characters...Weird. Of course, my 11th level light fighter still hasn't gotten access to mithral whereas several of my other characters have multiple. As for losing adventure access, several current mods have favors where you can regain previously lapsed access. Those are ultra cool favors.
GreatSiron 06-14-07, 05:56 PM	I've got multiple Holy access on multiple characters...Weird. Of course, my 11th level light fighter still hasn't gotten access to mithral whereas several of my other characters have multiple. As for losing adventure access, several current mods have favors where you can regain previously lapsed access. Those are ultra cool favors. It depends on the region. In the Yeomanry I've seen access at least twice, compared to only once in a core mod.
kjenks 06-14-07, 06:03 PM	I'd like to see more scrolls of limited spells for both arcane and divine casters. Specifically... Align Fang Avoid Planar Effects Baleful Transposition Benign Transposition Blast of Force Blindsight, Greater Conjure Ice Beast I-XIII Enrage Animal Faith Healing Jagged Tooth Knight's Move Lay of the Land Light of (Lunia, Mercuria, Venya, etc.) Lion's Charge Owl's Insight Resistance, Superior Rhino's Rush Sheltered Vitality Snake's Swiftness Spell Vulnerability Stabilize Strategic Charge Targeting Ray Undead Bane Weapon Veil of Shadow Weapon of Impact A Wand of Faith Healing would be most excellent. Potions are good, too.
JamesMaissen 06-14-07, 10:37 PM	I'd like a more generic access system entirely. At some point an item should become trivial rather than rare. ARs are a decent way to introduce items, but they should not be the only way. Specifically consumables should just be open access based on their price and if the spell (if any) behind them were open to the PC in question. ARs will never be able to handle all the possible scrolls, potions and wands, nor should they be cluttered by them after a point. A 25gp scroll of a 1st level spell thats open to everyone should not be more rare that a Vorpal Sword, yet that's currently the case. -James
control freak 06-14-07, 11:30 PM	id like a phlacryipyh or however you spell it of undead turning (its a dream i know but radiant servants could OWN undead with it
King Kashue 06-15-07, 12:14 AM	id like a phlacryipyh or however you spell it of undead turning (its a dream i know but radiant servants could OWN undead with it It's "phylactery"... And, as a side note, that thing you're doing, where your signature is fifteen times larger than your post...that's beautiful...
frupton 06-15-07, 01:32 AM	At the moment, I'd be happy with access to a mithral buckler. There are some very cool items in the MIC, particularly some of the set pieces. I hope we see some of those start trickling in.
Gwumph 06-15-07, 02:14 AM	1 Item: RIDING BOOTS
Dr.Cornelius 06-15-07, 02:54 AM	Sudden Metamagic feats would be nice.
Dr.Cornelius 06-15-07, 03:58 AM	Adding to Ken Jenk's excellent spell list: Animalistic Power Aspect of the Wolf Blood Wind Close Wounds Dimension Step Divine Retaliation Doom Scarabs Energy Aegis Enrage Animal Quick March Regroup Slide
kjenks 06-15-07, 07:44 AM	I agree with Gwumph and Dr. C. Those Riding Boots can make a big difference in the build plan for a mounted combat character.
Genghis Cohen 06-15-07, 01:13 PM	And, finally, a +1 booster with no body-slot limitation, like an ioun stone, would be way underpriced at 2K, given that a +2 booster ioun stone is 8K.2K is not underpriced. Its exactly what it should cost. Stat boost items are bonus squared times 1,000gp if they're slotted. Unslotted, like an ioun stone, is twice that.
Prof. Pacali 06-15-07, 02:57 PM	Wilding Clasps. Absolutely. My druid has no plans to ever Wildshape, unless there is a dire necessity, or she gets a Clasp.
Hariman 06-15-07, 10:52 PM	Sudden Metamagic feats would be nice. From what I heard, the Circle is clamping down on "free" uses of metamagic feats. So Sudden metamagic access might be hard to find. That's probably why the "Raging Spell" campaign card isn't LG legal. (Even with it's drawbacks.) And it IS why the Ultimate Magus is closed. As for "Items" I'd like to see more access to alternate class features. And a favor or two that let you recover gold lost to AR penalties.
Britt 06-15-07, 11:59 PM	I will never again give access to Sudden Metamagic feats. Were it not for Warmage, we might have Closed them. As for the other Circle members, I don't know exactly what they think.
Hariman 06-16-07, 12:07 AM	I will never again give access to Sudden Metamagic feats. Were it not for Warmage, we might have Closed them. As for the other Circle members, I don't know exactly what they think. Wow. I didn't think they were THAT bad. Out of curiosity; Why do you feel that the Sudden Metamagic feats are so bad? Is it because they give a character the capability to do something which would normally be impossible? Or is it because there are mod authors out there that would and/or have abused them to make "killer encounters"?
Lomiat 06-16-07, 12:08 AM	My non-mage would like access to Magebane. My mage would like access to a dragon's hoard of GP. He's got access to just about everything he could possibly want, excepting a Tome of Clear Thought +3 or +5. So many toys, so few ARs.... (Ooooh! A time machine!)
Britt 06-16-07, 12:20 AM	Wow. I didn't think they were THAT bad. Out of curiosity; Why do you feel that the Sudden Metamagic feats are so bad? Is it because they give a character the capability to do something which would normally be impossible? Or is it because there are mod authors out there that would and/or have abused them to make "killer encounters"? Those reasons and the fact that there are little if no significant prereqs on the feats. Sudden Quicken (or is it Maximize? the one with like 5 feats as prereqs) is the only reasonable one, imo, and probably the only one people don't care about getting access to, precisely for that reason.
Hariman 06-16-07, 12:46 AM	Those reasons and the fact that there are little if no significant prereqs on the feats. Sudden Quicken (or is it Maximize? the one with like 5 feats as prereqs) is the only reasonable one, imo, and probably the only one people don't care about getting access to, precisely for that reason. Quicken has 5. (Which is irritating, the regular quicken doesn't have that limitation.) Maximize has 1. It sounds like you would like a "fix" a DM I know used on the sudden spells. You had to be able to cast the spell after you applied the sudden metamagic to it. IE: No Sudden Empowering a fireball until you could cast level 5 spells. I'd say "but it's only 1/day" but I know full well that "Once per day" can be HUGE. Bracers of Quickstrike and a Belt of One Mighty Blow are good examples of this. Both can be used to great effect, once per day.
awroe 06-16-07, 12:19 PM	My going-to-be Initiate of the Seven Veils worshipper of Lydia and obsessed with pretty colourful clothes would love access to buy the "Seven Veils" set from the MIC. Well, actually she'd *prefer* access to craft them - nothing better than dying your own clothes. :) AW
thorinXXX 06-16-07, 06:40 PM	I will never again give access to Sudden Metamagic feats. Were it not for Warmage, we might have Closed them. As for the other Circle members, I don't know exactly what they think. Then please, aside from warmages, keep them out of the hands of the NPC's.
Mattastrophic 06-16-07, 09:27 PM	I don't mind the Sudden feats. Valuable feat slots are taken up by one-shot effects that may or may not actually work in the end. I can definitely tell you that they wouldn't seem so crazy if they were all Open. Currently, I figure there are people who see someone with a Sudden feat and go "That's broken!" without also saying "Because I don't have access!" Looking at Sudden Maximize... so you spend an entire feat slot to not-even-double (since the average of 2d6 is 7, and Maximized it makes 12) your damage output for ONE spell... Waitasecond!!! Doesn't Power Attack grant the ability to more-than-double your damage output all the time? Sudden feats are only under fire because they were released after the Player's Handbook was. If they were in the PHB, they wouldn't be perceived by anyone as broken at all. -Matt
King Kashue 06-16-07, 11:08 PM	Waitasecond!!! Doesn't Power Attack grant the ability to more-than-double your damage output all the time? No... Very much no... Even the most cursory and basic understanding of the math says no... Power attack provides at best a roughly 20% increase in average damage, and that's at the very bottom of the scale for a 2h weapon wielder. It's far more often in the 5-10% range. Most certainly not the 101%+ you're claiming.
Mattastrophic 06-17-07, 02:24 AM	Yeah, you're probably right. Silly me for shooting off at the mouth. The point remains, though, that Sudden Maximize isn't that strong. What might make it seem "broken" only stems from it's "limited" status. -Matt
King Kashue 06-17-07, 02:38 AM	I'm not sure as to whether it's broken or not for PCs... However, I know darn well it's broken for NPCs. A PC might be tempted to "save" the feat, in case of a better situation later that day. Because of the artificial nature of LG mods, the NPC will never "save" it, because the DM knows darn well there's nothing to save it for. This fight is the only fight the NPC will ever be in, at least as far as the microcosm of the module... Therefore the only mitigating factor against the power of the feat, namely the randomness of opportunity, is entirely removed for NPCs...
_metz_ 06-17-07, 03:38 AM	I'm not sure as to whether it's broken or not for PCs... However, I know darn well it's broken for NPCs. A PC might be tempted to "save" the feat, in case of a better situation later that day. Because of the artificial nature of LG mods, the NPC will never "save" it, because the DM knows darn well there's nothing to save it for. This fight is the only fight the NPC will ever be in, at least as far as the microcosm of the module... Therefore the only mitigating factor against the power of the feat, namely the randomness of opportunity, is entirely removed for NPCs... A sudden Maximized true striking Orb. Seen one one of those. From an NPC. Killed our Arcane Caster in the first round. (well took them down we had Delay death running - but WOULD have killed) So just bear that in mind when thinking about feats. No-one ever seems to when they whinge about stuff isn't open. - Its the impact on the NPCs thats a big issue. Once a day stuff is useful in LG. Once a day stuff in an encounter only designed to HAPPEN once is lethal.
Simpi 06-17-07, 04:42 AM	This fight is the only fight the NPC will ever be in, at least as far as the microcosm of the module. Doesn't your region ever have NPCs with capabilities to flee the battle (especially spellcasters with that feat should be able to fly at least) if it goes badly, heal up and come back for another go later, possibly even fighting with enemies the PCs face later? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
King Kashue 06-17-07, 05:06 AM	Doesn't your region ever have NPCs with capabilities to flee the battle (especially spellcasters with that feat should be able to fly at least) if it goes badly, heal up and come back for another go later, possibly even fighting with enemies the PCs face later? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad I've seen that maybe two or three times in my 200+ modules. That includes multiple dozens from Onnwal, Furyondy, Nyrond, and the Pale, as well as their corresponding meta-regions, as well as assorted modules from at least five other regions...
thorinXXX 06-17-07, 10:46 AM	Doesn't your region ever have NPCs with capabilities to flee the battle (especially spellcasters with that feat should be able to fly at least) if it goes badly, heal up and come back for another go later, possibly even fighting with enemies the PCs face later? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad In general, the only time NPC's retreat is to keep the PC's from getting the loot. I have only ever seen an NPC retreat and come back once.
Wraith235 06-17-07, 11:29 AM	so Brit ... are you saying that Twilight Armor will never go out in AR Access ?
Mattastrophic 06-17-07, 12:00 PM	Metz: So you're complaining because for once you ran into a single-spellcaster encounter... where the spellcaster was actually competent? That's the problem with NPC spellcasters. Either they go down so very easily, or they're actually able to kill people... and thus become complaint-worthy. So I say instead of complaining about encounters that actually present a chance of death... deal with them! As you said, your party dealt with it with Delay Death. What's the problem? -Matt
Lupo 06-17-07, 12:31 PM	In general, the only time NPC's retreat is to keep the PC's from getting the loot. I have only ever seen an NPC retreat and come back once. the problem with writing a "retreat-and-wait-for-a-better-day" into a module is that you basically have to write two mostly separate adventures from the point on where a major NPC may either retreats or may be captured/killed/defeated by the PCs :rolleyes: . and a NPC that once faced the PCs and knows some of their capabilities is a much more dangerous foe than the same NPC without such knowledge :P. it is just easier for the author to write NPCs that either fight till their death or retreat without popping up again ;). "well written" and "complex" NPC descriptions should include the threshold and conditions for "tries to surrender", "tries to escape" and the explanation for "will fanatically fight till death" :cool:. ciao martin m.
thorinXXX 06-17-07, 01:16 PM	Metz: So you're complaining because for once you ran into a single-spellcaster encounter... where the spellcaster was actually competent? That's the problem with NPC spellcasters. Either they go down so very easily, or they're actually able to kill people... and thus become complaint-worthy. So I say instead of complaining about encounters that actually present a chance of death... deal with them! As you said, your party dealt with it with Delay Death. What's the problem? -Matt There is a difference between acually competent and optimised for one fight per day. That is the whole point of the arguement.
Timlagor 06-17-07, 01:39 PM	I regularly have my NPCs save stuff for later when it's appropriate IC (well irregularly and not that many times actually but anyway...). Sometimes the PCs are the only enemies they are likely to face that day and they also know the PCs will be really tough. Sometimes they're situation is a little more precarious. (well ok it's mostly the former but the latter do exist; I've also seen casters with spells crossed off from earlier offscreen combats) EG: Crossfire saw one party meet an enemy Cleric in the depths of a haunted/spooky/monster-infested mine. The Cleric in questions saves his Harm spell (his nastiest iirc and he had someone to finish off the target) because he didn't think he needed to use it and might meet a big monster round the next bend...he died in one (critical) hit with the Harm uncast.
Britt 06-17-07, 03:45 PM	I can tell you that I question authors when they put Sudden metamagic feats on NPCs. I just recently quizzed one of my Triads to make sure they definitely playtested such an encounter and that it was fair.
Wraith235 06-17-07, 03:57 PM	I know we are talking about Suddens here ... but you made a comment about Twilight Armor ..... is that accurate ... no twilight to be handed out ?
Britt 06-17-07, 03:58 PM	No, I didn't say that. I said I seemed to remember something about it and wasn't sure. I'd have to look into it more before I decided anything about it.
Hariman 06-18-07, 12:46 AM	I don't mind the Sudden feats. Valuable feat slots are taken up by one-shot effects that may or may not actually work in the end. I can definitely tell you that they wouldn't seem so crazy if they were all Open. Currently, I figure there are people who see someone with a Sudden feat and go "That's broken!" without also saying "Because I don't have access!" Looking at Sudden Maximize... so you spend an entire feat slot to not-even-double (since the average of 2d6 is 7, and Maximized it makes 12) your damage output for ONE spell... Waitasecond!!! Doesn't Power Attack grant the ability to more-than-double your damage output all the time? Sudden feats are only under fire because they were released after the Player's Handbook was. If they were in the PHB, they wouldn't be perceived by anyone as broken at all. -Matt But 2d8 maximized is 16 instead of 9. 2d10 is 20 instead of 11. 2d12 is 24 instead of 13. Going from average to Maximum damage also stacks up pretty quickly as you get more dice per spell. 5d8 goes from 22.5 to 40 points of damage. And to get the most out of maximize, you have to use it on spells with d8, d10 or d12 damage per die. (Larger die = greater damage increase from maximize.) Smaller dice (A d4 or d6 damage per die spell) are better off empowered.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 01:10 AM	But 2d8 maximized is 16 instead of 9. 2d10 is 20 instead of 11. 2d12 is 24 instead of 13. Going from average to Maximum damage also stacks up pretty quickly as you get more dice per spell. 5d8 goes from 22.5 to 40 points of damage. And to get the most out of maximize, you have to use it on spells with d8, d10 or d12 damage per die. (Larger die = greater damage increase from maximize.) Smaller dice (A d4 or d6 damage per die spell) are better off empowered. Lets not forget that you are eliminating any random component. Average is just that. an Average. Maximised means you get a guaranteed full power hit in. With 10d6 that is is 60 damage rather than 35. Sure its only another 25 damage on averages, but I have seen 10d6 come up all as ones before. (Not kidding, wasn't for a fireball but was funny as hell) A maximised Fatespinner Born of Three Thunders Lightning Bolt, can be quite nasty when you have to reroll your spinned save... (And they are aiming at your caster who has a sh!te reflex save)
Hariman 06-18-07, 02:39 AM	Lets not forget that you are eliminating any random component. Average is just that. an Average. Maximised means you get a guaranteed full power hit in. With 10d6 that is is 60 damage rather than 35. Sure its only another 25 damage on averages, but I have seen 10d6 come up all as ones before. (Not kidding, wasn't for a fireball but was funny as hell) A maximised Fatespinner Born of Three Thunders Lightning Bolt, can be quite nasty when you have to reroll your spinned save... (And they are aiming at your caster who has a sh!te reflex save) You're right there. I recently witnessed a death that wouldn't have been a death had the DM rolled 10 instead of 11. I've lived through some battles because I didn't take much damage. I've seen a 4d4 falchion crit come up all ones. And I've seen normal falchion hits com up all 4s. I've also personally rolled above average damage on my character's lesser orbs and shocking grasps more than once. For anybody who says "Sudden Maximize isn't THAT powerful": Lets take a wizard 11 using sudden maximize as the example. Add in a barbarian or two and he becomes a good EL12 encounter for an APL 10 adventure, right? Wrong. A spellwarp sniper build could easily do 120 points of damage with one standard action. Plus Sneak Attack/Sudden Raystrike. (Starting invisible, of course.) Not to mention that at that point a spellwarp sniper could have a quickened spell to add to the fun. Dead wizards aren't much fun. I'd like to see a wizard who can take 120 points of damage in the surprise round. At level 10. And get this: That only requires two spells out of his bare MINIMUM of 23! Add in Metamagic School Focus and Empower Spell (Easily used a the Prereq for Split Ray) And the damage on that one spell goes to 120+10d6! (Split, pun intended, between two rays, plus any bonus damage.) That takes a third level damage spell, Empowers and split rays it, then adds Sudden Maximize. The sudden feats are powerful because they can have a major impact if used right. Imagine a widened empowered sudden maximized fireball. I guess that I understand why Britt doesn't like the Sudden feats now. I wouldn't mind seeing this kind of spell dropped on an APL +3 dragon. But I would HATE being on the receiving end of it. Hariman
_metz_ 06-18-07, 03:05 AM	You're right there. <snip> I guess that I understand why Britt doesn't like the Sudden feats now. I wouldn't mind seeing this kind of spell dropped on an APL +3 dragon. But I would HATE being on the receiving end of it. Hariman Exactly. Its very dangerous on NPCs, and useful on PCs. Hence why if it was closed it would be in the PCs benefit, statistically, which is what I am pretty sure Britt was getting at. (Darn you Warmages! lol) It is possible to come up against a Wizard 11 and some minions at APL 12, it really is. Think of the Damage sudden maximise can cause in that scenario. DMs, and Mod Writers are as crafty as PCs. And before anyone argues that scenario is just trying to kill PCs, personally I would be insulted if a 24 Int Wizard I was fighting didn't display appropriate tactical nuance, as well as giving as good as they could get.
gomeztoo 06-18-07, 07:13 AM	In general, the only time NPC's retreat is to keep the PC's from getting the loot. I have only ever seen an NPC retreat and come back once. We had some recurring NPC villains in our region. Running away is not stupid if it keeps you alive...
thorinXXX 06-18-07, 12:10 PM	We had some recurring NPC villains in our region. Running away is not stupid if it keeps you alive... I have seen a few run away and return in a different mod. But only once have I seen a bad guy return in the same mod after running away. I have also seen a couple of retreats that I think were more to keep the PC's from getting any loot than for any legitemate reason.
JamesMaissen 06-18-07, 04:57 PM	The sudden feats are powerful because they can have a major impact if used right. Imagine a widened empowered sudden maximized fireball. I imagine being greatful that a better used 8th level spell wasn't being dropped on me? I mean it will do around 77pts of damage on average, meanwhile a maximized cone of cold is doing 90. And that's not sudden maximized.. just normal maximized. But the sudden feats are one shot wonders. That's a problem, especially for NPCs with a deathwish. A more balanced version of them would be something like 2-3/day but limited to things that you could otherwise cast if you had the normal associated feat (ie to sudden maximize a fireball you'd need to be able to cast 6th level spells). -James
copper_wyrmling 06-19-07, 12:56 AM	My mage would like access to a dragon's hoard of GP. He's got access to just about everything he could possibly want, excepting a Tome of Clear Thought +3 or +5. So many toys, so few ARs.... *radiates jealousy at Lomiat* ;) My sorc has almost 30k on hand atm... not because she's saving up for anything, but because she doesn't have access to anything fun. (About the best of my long-term access is a pearl of the sirines. This is on a nearly-L13 sorceress who's never played an underwater mod. And it's not a matter of losing good Adventure access: there's maybe one item that I'd like to use a regain-lost-access favor on, and only because it got discounted massively in the MIC.) I had a conversation with a friend about a recent mod: Friend: That was a great AR for arcanists. Me: The Limited spells are cool - I doubt I'll ever learn any of them, they're too specialized, but I might buy some of the scrolls so I can Limited Wish for them. I won't buy anything else from that AR. Friend: ... but what about all the pearls of power? Me: They only work for prep-casters. Friend: How about the ring that gives extra low-level spell slots? Me: Read the item description: it only works for prep-casters. Friend: The item that casts Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer? Me: That only helps wizards. Friend: The wings of flying? Me: They take a cloak slot. Friend: The item that gives extra cantrips? Me: I don't run out of cantrips. Friend: The augment crystal? Me: She's a sorcerer, she doesn't use weapons. Friend: The boots of speed? Me: She doesn't do melee, and rides a phantom steed most of the time, and she already has boots. Friend: The eyes of the eagle? Me: Increasing my Spot check from -1 to +4 is not worth 2500 gold and an item slot. And I already have Core access, anyway, if I ever get desperate. Friend: The spellsight spectacles? Me: I already auto-make the checks that those apply to. It was a really nice AR for wizards - but there was virtually nothing on it for favored souls, and not much at all for sorcerers. I'm allowed to make two items on it Any access, but I can't see any way to make that favor useful (unless I rebuilt the character into a completely different class for the high-level campaign). The sad thing is that's still one of the best ARs for the character I've seen in her entire career (sure, no item access, but hey it had some Limited spells...) Anyway, already-written mods are water under the bridge... but some runestaffs or other nice high-level-sorcerer-y items (metamagic rods, orange ioun stone, ring of arcane might) would be very much appreciated for the future ;)
King Kashue 06-19-07, 01:20 AM	Friend: How about the ring that gives extra low-level spell slots? Me: Read the item description: it only works for prep-casters. Are you referring to Ring of Wizardry? Because that's not just for prep-casters (I know folks who think it is).
copper_wyrmling 06-19-07, 02:26 AM	Are you referring to Ring of Wizardry? Because that's not just for prep-casters (I know folks who think it is). No, it's not a ring of wizardry. It's much cheaper, it gives fewer bonus slots, and it only works for prep-casters. Mind you, I probably wouldn't have bought it even if it worked for spontaneous casters: lack of L1 slots is not really a problem for high-level sorcs / warmages (might be nice for bards though) ;)
solbergb 06-19-07, 04:36 PM	I regularly have my NPCs save stuff for later when it's appropriate IC (well irregularly and not that many times actually but anyway...). Yeah, the problem is that NPC's quickly realize they're in an EL+4 to EL+6 encounter, and then unsurprisingly pull out all the stops. Just like PC's do when they get into big trouble. Remember how the APL tiering works. An EL+3 encounter with 4 classed NPC's means each individual is 1 level behind the average party level. One with 6 classed NPC's means they're 2 levels behind. So yeah, if a NPC has big one-shot stuff, he'll pull it out if he realizes from PC actions or reputation or information he's learned about them that they're an encounter that will kill him 2 falls out of 3.
solbergb 06-19-07, 04:41 PM	[QUOTE=copper_wyrmling;12777702It was a really nice AR for wizards -[/QUOTE] Maybe you would have had better luck if the plot NPC was a sorcerer rather than a wizard? The stuff on the AR actually fit the module backstory, which we thought was kinda cool. We played that one with a druid and an arcane archer and yeah, we're pretty stoked about the access, although it puts my archer even further into a hole financially with temptations to not upgrade his bow, resistance and attribute items....
solbergb 06-19-07, 04:53 PM	hm, for my answer to this topic. For casters - somewhat open-ended noncore spell access. There are a lot of good resources out there, but barring NPC spellbooks packed with noncore spells a given AR isn't going to land on the right character. Just as weapon upgrades work best on favors so you can apply it to the *right* weapon, spell access needs to be in some way flexible to make it more likely to appeal to an individual character. Oviously we can't to "any limited spell" type favors in the current environment but some middle ground between "the same 3 spells I got offered on the last AR instead of the weird one perfect for my character" and "anything not open or closed" should be doable somehow. For noncasters - either freedom from the DMG potion tables or use of the MIC potion/scroll tables or use of formulas. I have one character with a "NPC will make a potion of any potion-legal phb spell at any caster level up to "N"" type favor. So that guy has access to CL1 enlarge person potions, or CL6 shield of faith potions or whatever.
TWG_Prometheus 06-19-07, 04:55 PM	No, I didn't say that. I said I seemed to remember something about it and wasn't sure. I'd have to look into it more before I decided anything about it. I don't know if the issue is related, Britt, but the Twilight enhancement was reprinted in the MIC, so once that becomes available, Twilight isn't inherently a Book of Exalted Deeds enhancement anymore. I'm running a Gish and I was hoping that I'd at least have a chance of seeing Twilight showing up here and there. The enhancement isn't expensive, but it also doesn't do a whole lot really. The most broken thing I can think of about it is that it would let a Wizard with no Spellsword investment wear a mithril chain shirt without penalty...at most a +5 Twilight Chain Shirt is 9 AC for 37,100 gold (19,100 crafted by 15th level in the best case) when they could just be using Greater Mage Armor. For an actual Gish that would use armor regardless, we're looking at Twilight Mithril Fullplate in the extreme for an ASF of 15%, which would require three levels of spellsword to reduce instead of the one-dip for 10%. Thistledown armor layering could, I guess, reduce that to 10%, but the chance of a single character getting Mithril Fullplate, Twilight and Thistledown armor layering is pretty small. Even in that extreme example, though...they're only getting the ability to finally wear the same armor type as any old Battle Cleric. It's hard to imagine that as being broken. For myself, the only real reason I'd want it is to upgrade that mithril chain shirt to a mithril breastplate. A breastplate sounds like actual armor instead of something Frodo Baggins used as underclothes and fits the character concept better. Anyway, unless there's some outstanding issue that I'm not thinking of, I hope that the MIC reprint of Twilight will give us reason to hope for a bit of access sprinkled here and there.
Frumpkis 06-19-07, 04:58 PM	For casters - somewhat open-ended noncore spell access. There are a lot of good resources out there, but barring NPC spellbooks packed with noncore spells a given AR isn't going to land on the right character. Just as weapon upgrades work best on favors so you can apply it to the *right* weapon, spell access needs to be in some way flexible to make it more likely to appeal to an individual character. Oviously we can't to "any limited spell" type favors in the current environment but some middle ground between "the same 3 spells I got offered on the last AR instead of the weird one perfect for my character" and "anything not open or closed" should be doable somehow. SECONDED! I'd love to get access to some Spell Compendium bard-only spells, but how often do you see spell access on ARs tailored towards bards? :mad:
solbergb 06-19-07, 05:04 PM	SECONDED! I'd love to get access to some Spell Compendium bard-only spells, but how often do you see spell access on ARs tailored towards bards? :mad: Yeah, for me it is.... Blood wind on my monk-with-level-of-wizard, for reasons that should be obvious. A spell that increases melee damage while doing hitpoints to yourself on the cleric list with a blood special effect for my favored soul of procan (his will have a salt water special effect...). His god wants him to have destructive spells, he wants to be a healer...and there just aren't any good L1 destructive cleric spells with weather or water themes.... Align fang for my pouncekitty druid. Or some of the druid spells that play with rage effects. Align fang is actually possible, since lots of druids want it. For my TK sorceress, there is a kind of tornado tipped sideways air spell that would be a fun upgrade to her gust of wind spell. That or flaywind burst, same basic idea. She'd also like the launch item cantrip. My arcane archer got the launch item cantrip - but he's always been amazingly lucky with wizard access stuff, to the point that it eats into his wealth by level on archery a lot.
Mattastrophic 06-19-07, 05:10 PM	SECONDED! I'd love to get access to some Spell Compendium bard-only spells, but how often do you see spell access on ARs tailored towards bards? :mad: THIRDED! Especially since Complete Mage and Complete Champion are entirely NONC, on top of all the NONC Spell Compendium spells, which we'll probably never ever see at this rate, since SpC isn't the new hotness. -Matt
copper_wyrmling 06-20-07, 07:40 AM	Maybe you would have had better luck if the plot NPC was a sorcerer rather than a wizard? The stuff on the AR actually fit the module backstory, which we thought was kinda cool. We played that one with a druid and an arcane archer and yeah, we're pretty stoked about the access, although it puts my archer even further into a hole financially with temptations to not upgrade his bow, resistance and attribute items.... Sure, one of the things I loved about the mod as a whole was that the NPCs made sense as more than cannon-fodder for the PCs. I'm not criticizing that AR in particular, like I said it's one of the nicest Azi has received, purely because of the spell access - but part of the reason for my post was that I have seen authors think in terms of "something for the arcanes, something for the divine casters, something for the tanks, something for the rogues", and that AR was about the best recent demonstration I've seen that you need to split up the categories a bit more than that if you're trying to make everyone happy :) Also, a couple of things on that AR got altered so that they didn't fit the NPCs so well, and I was told that the rationale was that the changes made them more useful to melee types (albeit in one case useless to the actual NPC who owned the item). So I do think that logic is being used in writing / editing - but now I'm working on hearsay, and also getting more and more into spoiler territory (by maybe dropping clues as to which scenario it is), so I think I'll stop here. Az has fought enemy sorcerers, but frankly, she's had more luck with looting wizards - they sometimes have nifty spellbooks with cool non-Open spells ;) The sorcerers she's met all seem to be weird impulse buyers - the last one she fought was packing a stone of alarm, vest of escape and fully charged wand of searing light - there isn't even a cloak of charisma on that AR, and that was well before the new LGCS. I agree with the spell access comments - although maybe I see the need for that less than most people, since I've found it reasonably easy to arrange special missions (which can give spell access, but not item access). (Incidentally, a friend asked me recently to compile a minimal list of Spell Compendium NONC spells that gave at least four spells to every PHB spellcaster class, including rangers and paladins - using my judgement to only pick spells that a reasonable number of people would actually use. It was an interesting exercise - one thing I noticed was that there aren't a lot of low-level bard spells that overlap with other spell lists, which may be why not much useful bard spell access has been granted.)
JohnduBois 06-20-07, 08:14 AM	SECONDED! I'd love to get access to some Spell Compendium bard-only spells, but how often do you see spell access on ARs tailored towards bards? :mad: All I'm saying is that in a region where the Plots Triad is the biggest gatekeeper of AR access, and the new Plots Triad's first LG character was a dwarf bard "because I thought it would be cool", and said Triad's first volunteerism for the campaign was rewriting the bard meta-org, you can expect that things that are good for bards might show up on ARs...
solbergb 06-20-07, 12:50 PM	I agree with the spell access comments - although maybe I see the need for that less than most people, since I've found it reasonably easy to arrange special missions (which can give spell access, but not item access). Special missions are a PITA. You have to get a writer, you have to get triad attention and the barrier to entry is high enough that only the most hardcore players really do it. At least around here. Maybe it's different in Australia or boston :) I've only been involved in one (as writer and GM) and that one happened because several Pholtan Pale members traipsed off to another region and got a diabolic curse, so it seemed reasonable to petition their Church to get it removed..... Without strong motivation and several players involved I doubt it would have gotten beyond talking stage. I nearly got involved with another one, involving a dwarf reincarnated into an elf who wanted to become an honorary dwarf again so he could get dwarven defender training.....my dwarf was horrified by his reincarnation accident when he met the guy....
haferka 06-20-07, 12:50 PM	Limited Druid Spells.. (all Spell compendium).. *=Favorites Corona of Cold Girallion Blessing *Healing Sting Hypothermia Ice Lance Fire Wings *Infestation of Maggots Jagged Tooth BTW.. ... Wildshape + Girallion Blessing + Fire Wings = Wildshaped Druid with 60' Good Fly speed (or an extra 2 natural attacks.. 2d6 each)
control freak 06-20-07, 01:48 PM	sound lance, dark fire, conj ice beast spells, and again pylac of undead turning(combind with radiant servant of cheeze + ephod of authorit+ improved turning its just dumb) acess to bane evil outside/holy
Britt 06-20-07, 02:39 PM	All I'm saying is that in a region where the Plots Triad is the biggest gatekeeper of AR access, and the new Plots Triad's first LG character was a dwarf bard "because I thought it would be cool", and said Triad's first volunteerism for the campaign was rewriting the bard meta-org, you can expect that things that are good for bards might show up on ARs... Hey! My cohort for my second character was a Dwarf Bard/Marshal with a 16 CHA and 10 CON (I call it max/min). He wore full plate and refused to cast spells unless absolutely necessary, as that wasn't very dwarf-like. His auras were things like Motivate CON and STR, Demand Fortitude, and any other dwarf-like things he could think of, so he could drink as well as the other dwarfs and get them to like him. It was great fun! And on that note. I can tell you that I try to include more roleplay fluff in the top box of ARs than rules crunch. I like to give access to things you can already buy, or that aren't all that powerful, but that have a neat description and background. I want people to talk about their items because of roleplaying, not because of power. I've even mentioned this to my Triads as a guide in the past, but I think I'm going to be instituting new rules for ARs soon to help enforce it...duh duh dum!
Frumpkis 06-20-07, 03:28 PM	And on that note. I can tell you that I try to include more roleplay fluff in the top box of ARs than rules crunch. I like to give access to things you can already buy, or that aren't all that powerful, but that have a neat description and background. I want people to talk about their items because of roleplaying, not because of power. I've even mentioned this to my Triads as a guide in the past, but I think I'm going to be instituting new rules for ARs soon to help enforce it...duh duh dum! Dude! Britt, can you guest-Circle-member for the VTF metaregion sometime?? :D (Nothing against Tim Sech, he seems to be doing a good job, but he's definitely one of the more "keep a low profile and just get the job done" Circle members.....)
haferka 06-20-07, 03:33 PM	... I want people to talk about their items because of roleplaying, not because of power. ... OK.. Zan Lee, the Death Cultist would really love for "Old Man Mistletoe" to teach him the Infestation of Maggots spell... (without making me into an Ex-Druid.. ... YET)
Britt 06-20-07, 03:41 PM	Dude! Britt, can you guest-Circle-member for the VTF metaregion sometime?? :D (Nothing against Tim Sech, he seems to be doing a good job, but he's definitely one of the more "keep a low profile and just get the job done" Circle members.....) Tim's active. He writes a monthly web article and he watches these boards. He just commented yesterday on a thread. I just talk a lot, too much sometimes. Some people think I keep too high of a profile, which may be true at times.
Britt 06-20-07, 03:45 PM	OK.. Zan Lee, the Death Cultist would really love for "Old Man Mistletoe" to teach him the Infestation of Maggots spell... (without making me into an Ex-Druid.. ... YET) See, the difference here is that I would prefer a favor that has Old Man Mistletoe teach you how to cast a version of shillelagh that makes the weapon also have maggots all over it at the same time, or sell you a magic club that has a side effect of being eternally infested with maggots. You can do/buy both already with the Core rules, but you get roleplay flavor out of those. What you are talking about is a favor that gives crunch with a RP justification. I'm talking about a favor that gives fluff.
solbergb 06-20-07, 04:16 PM	I'm talking about a favor that gives fluff. As long as the fluff doesn't cost an arm and a leg, people will appreciate it. Tacking another 8000gp to the price for fluff isn't going to get many takers. Good exampe from past AR 500gp spoon makes any meal eaten with it taste like a home-cooked meal for the user Bad example from past AR Shield and Sickle that would have been really nice for an Old Faith Flan to own for roleplay reasons that had x/day spell abilities that jacked the price up so high that by the time anyone could afford it, the spells are too weak to be of any use and the items without the spells by no means justify the price. Reducing the spell effects to 1/day or choosing lower level effects to add flavor or both might have made it an item people would have been proud to own for flavor reasons, and the "flavor" abilities would have been cheap enough that it wouldn't have mattered even if they were too weak to be useful.
Britt 06-20-07, 04:30 PM	Yeah, I'm talking more things that cost exactly the same as the base version and have no mechanical differences, but have neat roleplay effects.
Mattastrophic 06-20-07, 05:53 PM	Ehhh, I'd rather leave the roleplaying of items up to the players and use the AR space for meaningful stuff. Example: My Virtuoso, his Boots of Speed look very exquisite compared to Bob the Fighter's. No, I didn't get the Favor of the Really Expensive Cobblers of Greyhawk. They look that way because I say so. Plus, all something like that does is make such a "flavorful" item become very non-unique and very un-flavorful, as everyone who plays Mod X ends up with identical-looking tattoos or staves or whatever. "So what if your club looks like it's infested with maggots? That just means you played COR8-99 Mag-got Served. Your club would be more flavorful if you created the description instead of let a mod writer do your roleplaying for you." -Matt
Britt 06-20-07, 06:21 PM	That's a fine opinion, but that's not what my experience indicates will happen for the general populace. I've spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing the attitudes of players in LG over the years, and it is my educated guess that the more you use the top box for crunch, the more people talk about crunch instead of roleplaying; conversely, the more you use the top box for fluff, the more people talk about roleplaying instead of crunch. It's similar to the Limited category discussion. If you don't have a name for the category, people are less focused on it and it is also more difficult to talk and think about, which further decreases attention to the category. Similarly, if you prompt players with roleplaying favors, they think about it more and are more likely to engage in roleplaying. If you prompt players with crunch, they are more likely to think about that. If you don't prompt players with roleplaying queues, those that are less innately inclined in that direction will not be encouraged to pursue it. If you give many different queues for roleplaying, yes, people where know where the particular item came from, but all that does is remind them of events and characters within the game, rather than a particular page in the rulebooks. Different characters are going to latch onto different roleplay hooks and it will give them ideas for further developing their characters. As you have many hooks out there, the diversity increases.
_metz_ 06-20-07, 07:07 PM	Yeah, I'm talking more things that cost exactly the same as the base version and have no mechanical differences, but have neat roleplay effects. I have access to a Pot Lid and Kitchen Knife that pass UNDER inspection as JUST cooking Utensils, but count as a masterwork Handaxe and Buckler.... :)
JohnduBois 06-20-07, 07:18 PM	And on that note. I can tell you that I try to include more roleplay fluff in the top box of ARs than rules crunch. I like to give access to things you can already buy, or that aren't all that powerful, but that have a neat description and background. I want people to talk about their items because of roleplaying, not because of power. I've even mentioned this to my Triads as a guide in the past, but I think I'm going to be instituting new rules for ARs soon to help enforce it...duh duh dum! Arg! Need to stop giving Britt ideas... Especially the day before my mods are due...
Mattastrophic 06-20-07, 07:28 PM	it is my educated guess that the more you use the top box for crunch, the more people talk about crunch instead of roleplaying; conversely, the more you use the top box for fluff, the more people talk about roleplaying instead of crunch. Let's look at it like this: If the top box of an AR has no crunch and all fluff, there's no crunch to talk about. If the top box of an AR has 80% fluff and 20% crunch, then people will still talk about the crunch over the fluff. When it comes to the top box, crunch tops fluff. If people are talking about the fluff, it's probably because there's no crunch, or the crunch doesn't taste very crunchy because it's just weak. I remember one particular Geoff AR: GEO5-08 Sorrow as Deep as Night. An entire page was devoted to what you could do with your favors of Duchess Calisse. On it were things like "any DMG item of 50K or less," "learn to wildshape into a dire elk," "take a griffon as a paladin mount," "gain a Luna Moth mount," and then the fluff like "join the Old Lore College of Canaith," "gain a satyr cohort who can only advance by HD or as a bard who only stays with you for two years after the date on the AR," and "be awarded 1000 acres as a life estate." Assuming you didn't already have it... If you had to choose between, say, Ring of Freedom of Movement access and 1000 acres of fluff, which would you pick? (yes, this question is rhetorical; let's not derail this thread again, please) "Fluffy" ARs also promote that elitist bent that the Stormwind Fallacy addresses. People who spend their resources on fluff are very often the same types of people who think that taking the fluff makes them better roleplayers than the people who don't. I can even cite an example, where one player spent many tens thousands of pieces of gold on her entirely-fluffy inn, and because of that she thought she was the roleplaying queen, going so far as to impose her regalness on others. Let's not encourage that kind of behavior, please. I realize it's not the fluff that's at fault, but the players who abuse it. But then again, the same could be said of Divine Metamagic, and we all know what happened to that. I guess I'm kind of jaded about fluff because in the past I've found myself on the receiving end of the attitudes of those types of people, so if that is skewing my opinion way out of proportion, that's why. As for the rest of the post... yes, I see your point, Britt, and I'm glad you're looking to promote roleplay. I just don't think your method is a good way to go about it. In my opinion, though, promoting roleplaying in LG is a lost cause. A four-hour slot is just not enough time to both slog through a mod and actually roleplay beyond a brief description at the beginning that doesn't end up mattering. The campaign would have to change fundamentally for roleplaying to start actually meaning something. I'm with you, Britt; I really am. I've stated before that my own objective in LG is to make combats take as little time as possible so I have more time to play my character. My primary is a frackin' Virtuoso who never gets to use his stellar Perform modifiers, and it's killin' me! It's going to take a bit more than fluffing up ARs to make that happen, though. It's a baby-step in the correct direction, and that's all. -Matt was promised showers of gifts from attractive admirers! WHERE ARE THEY?!?!
Britt 06-20-07, 07:38 PM	To clarify, I'm not talking all fluff and no crunch; I'm talking about ensuring that there is some fluff there. I have noticed a general trend towards more crunch over the years, to the point that most ARs I review now have almost no fluff at all; every entry is "You gain access the following feats: xxxxxx", with as little introductory text as possible to allow as many new rules options on the AR as possible. I have also noticed a corresponding decrease in the amount of talk I hear about non-crunch material. I just want to ensure that there is a decent amount of fluff there for people that want it or can use it as a guide. I also know that some crunch has to be there.
Mattastrophic 06-20-07, 07:50 PM	I have noticed a general trend towards more crunch over the years, to the point that most ARs I review now have almost no fluff at all; every entry is "You gain access the following feats: xxxxxx", with as little introductory text as possible to allow as many new rules options on the AR as possible. And honestly... with the way the campaign is currently set up, if it's between fluff and crunch, bring on the crunchy goodness; I have my own brain to invent all the fluff I can come up with. At this point, any trend towards more crunch is GOOD, especially in a thread titled "What item(s) would you like access to and why?" -Matt
solbergb 06-20-07, 07:55 PM	Yeah, I'm talking more things that cost exactly the same as the base version and have no mechanical differences, but have neat roleplay effects. ah, well that's even better. I'm the kind of player who enjoys such things. Like the favor I got back in year 3 that had continual light cast on the item of my character's choosing (and lasting between adventures), for NPC caster rates....my wife's Pholtan holy symbol still glows with that fire. Mine sadly got shattered by a vampire, but that's another story...
Timlagor 06-20-07, 09:46 PM	I'd prefer to see stuff that is crunchily different but not better to merely 'fluff' which I can describe for myself. Items that are only 'quite good' and of intermediate price are problematic in LG because they require a significant investment and lose all value in time. In a less modular campaigh one can find and use such items before selling them at no extra loss for the use. People do tend to talk a lot about the 'crunch'. There's nothing wrong with that. People talk a lot less about roleplay. The main reason for that that I've experienced has nothing to do with anything Britt implied and won't be at all affected by anything he does: spoilers. It's very hard to talk about your roleplaying exploits when you can't discuss anything that happened to your character in the last year or two. I have not experienced any lack of roleplaying and I don't think I have particularly low standards in that regard (though I definitely love my crunchy cheese :)). **************************************** ********** The Phylactery of Undead Turning isn't remotely ovepowered in LG. By the time you can afford and hope to find one (in most regions) the undead are so hard to turn that you have to be absolutely specialised to even have a hope ...and if you are then it should just work when you run into Undead. Most players are mature enough not to get upset that they are overshadowed by someone else's abilities occasionally ..and I don't much care about those who aren't ...especially since that still leaves at least 3 hours and 50 minutes for them to roleplay their character.
copper_wyrmling 06-20-07, 10:20 PM	Special missions are a PITA. PITA? Your acronyms confuse me ;) You have to get a writer, you have to get triad attention and the barrier to entry is high enough that only the most hardcore players really do it. At least around here. Maybe it's different in Australia or boston :) I haven't tried in Boston yet - the Perrenland Triad was very generous with them, and they also tend to recycle them (I believe they have existing specials for seeker of the song, church inquisitor and drunken master access; they've probably added some more since I left). Of course, the only one I actually ended up playing was purely roleplay for my character, but it was pretty cool to get to reconsecrate an ancient sacred site as a temple to my cleric's god (especially since at that point there were NO functioning temples to Joramy in all of Perrenland, and Joramy was hated due to a massive volcanic eruption that was causing famine + cold + vampires walking freely during the day). I sat in on a second one for the RP, at a friend's request (our PCs were friends, and the mission involved resolving a backstory point for his character): I couldn't actually play it because of the one mission / player / year restriction in effect at that time. I have one mostly organized for this year, for spell access, so hopefully that'll work out. Matt, I completely disagree that roleplaying in LG gets restricted to "a brief description at the beginning that doesn't end up mattering". That said, most of the games I play are not at conventions, and we often take more than four hours - but I've had entertaining RP games at cons, as well. I agree with Timlagor on the issue of spoilers.
_metz_ 06-20-07, 10:32 PM	PITA? Your acronyms confuse me ;) I haven't tried in Boston yet - the Perrenland Triad was very generous with them, and they also tend to recycle them (I believe they have existing specials for seeker of the song, church inquisitor and drunken master access; they've probably added some more since I left). Of course, the only one I actually ended up playing was purely roleplay for my character, but it was pretty cool to get to reconsecrate an ancient sacred site as a temple to my cleric's god (especially since at that point there were NO functioning temples to Joramy in all of Perrenland, and Joramy was hated due to a massive volcanic eruption that was causing famine + cold + vampires walking freely during the day). I sat in on a second one for the RP, at a friend's request (our PCs were friends, and the mission involved resolving a backstory point for his character): I couldn't actually play it because of the one mission / player / year restriction in effect at that time. I have one mostly organized for this year, for spell access, so hopefully that'll work out. Matt, I completely disagree that roleplaying in LG gets restricted to "a brief description at the beginning that doesn't end up mattering". That said, most of the games I play are not at conventions, and we often take more than four hours - but I've had entertaining RP games at cons, as well. I agree with Timlagor on the issue of spoilers. YEah Australia is actually really good for specials, they will organise you one really quickly, and there is a wealth of trusted mod writers to help you out. I emailed Ratik triad and got the response "If you know a mod writer then ask em to knock you one up and I will approve it, alternatively wait a month when i have time and I will do it for you" - I then promptly pestered some of the mod writers I know to help me out, and in a couple of weeks had a special being drafted up. :) Of course it will vary greatly from region to region, and in Australia it is quite location based (If you are near mod writers or Triad, e.g: Sydney, Brisbane or Canberra, then its easy, but if you aren't then its hard.) Perrenland also had one of the best infrastructures and player bases in the world, formally having the WHOLE of Australia devoted to one very active region. And Matt, sounds like you need to play some more Home LG games :) Plenty of time for roleplay there, I like cons a lot, but I like the POTENTIAL to roleplay just as much. I HATE rushed modules.
JohnduBois 06-20-07, 10:34 PM	To clarify, I'm not talking all fluff and no crunch; I'm talking about ensuring that there is some fluff there. I have noticed a general trend towards more crunch over the years, to the point that most ARs I review now have almost no fluff at all; every entry is "You gain access the following feats: xxxxxx", with as little introductory text as possible to allow as many new rules options on the AR as possible. I have also noticed a corresponding decrease in the amount of talk I hear about non-crunch material. I just want to ensure that there is a decent amount of fluff there for people that want it or can use it as a guide. I also know that some crunch has to be there. Oddly, when I became Triad, I tried to limit the amount of "fluff" on ARs for a completely different reason. Most of our ARs explicitly said, "For doing X for Y person, they give you access to Z". These are ARs that DMs could ask to see to ensure that access to Z truly existed, and thus learn exactly what to do to get access. As a result, my "fluff text", when it existed, tended to be limited to an unusual physical description (which, early reports tell me, were a big hit). Attaching something like that to something the PCs want anyway gives you a popcorn-like fluffy crunch, and also leaves the door open for more crunchiness if you feel evil a few years down the line... "So who bought this supposed fluff item from year 4?"
Britt 06-20-07, 10:56 PM	John, that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about, though we might differ on degree. I also strip out anything that describes how you got the favor, to avoid spoilers.
Frumpkis 06-21-07, 02:31 AM	Assuming you didn't already have it...If you had to choose between, say, Ring of Freedom of Movement access and 1000 acres of fluff, which would you pick? Depends on the character. For my frontline PCs - those that need to be standing toe-to-toe with the bad guys - sure (even then though, he has a lot more important things to spend his hard-earned cash on, so I wouldn't pick up a FOM Ring for him until the upper levels, like 14 or 15). For my "backline"/support PCs.......*pfft*, I can live without the ring. For my noble PCs - hells yeah, give me the fluffy land ownership! Let's not encourage that kind of behavior, please. I realize it's not the fluff that's at fault, but the players who abuse it. But then again, the same could be said of Divine Metamagic, and we all know what happened to that. LOL I think this is the first time I've heard someone complain of fluff being overpowered or abused. Anyway, while I think good roleplaying should ultimately come from the player him/herself, "fluff" items or rules function like catalysts for players to form roleplaying hooks around. You take what happened in the mod, and expand it into a story that fleshes out your character (eg. your deserty Bright Sands character helped out a merchant, who gave your PC a snow globe, now your PC is obsessed with snow globes). Personally, I love seeing fluff items in mods. When my high-level bard retires from the campaign and sets up his trophy room, he's not gonna be bragging about his Cloak of Charisma +6. He'll be talking about the 5' (or was it 10'?) white roc feather that he found on one of his adventures (year 3/4 NMR mod). It kind of saddens me that triads/authors are not encouraged more to make up their own unique magic items. Stuff like the Collar of Tusmit (from Folly; it prevents decapitation) were cool, even if most PCs would pass on the thing. [Yes, Greyhawk grognards, I realize the Collar of Tusmit was a 2nd ed item that the author only ported to 3.5 rules, but still.......;)]
Southernskies 06-21-07, 03:06 AM	I tend to have a good strike rate with "fluff" items on my adventures. There was the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity from PER4-09 One Jen too many... where ~75% of tables had someone put it on *deliberately* when they had the fortune teller identify it. It was too late to make that decision when you got the AR... My latest one that premiere's next month has something interesting as well (if it gets past circle edit intact). Was going to be some stuff from MIC, but my choice hit the restricted list of items. :doh:
Dr.Cornelius 06-21-07, 03:48 AM	The stuff on the AR actually fit the module backstory, which we thought was kinda cool.That's the crux of the issue - access is completely arbritary. Yes, it might seem cool to the writers but would it hurt anything to sprinkle access for the four basic classes, and also spontaneous casters? Its also nice for authors to drop hints in the teaser text. For example, I can think of a couple of regional mods that were especially interesting for Bards and Druids and the text was a nice way to attract appropriate classes to the mods.
Dr.Cornelius 06-21-07, 04:11 AM	I've only been involved in one (special mission) and that one happened because several Pholtan Pale members traipsed off to another region and got a diabolic curse, so it seemed reasonable to petition their Church to get it removed.....Lets add a little detail for the out of town folks - A person in a position of authority in Nyrond has it in for a certain Prestige Class and designed a serious, non-avoidable, precision-targeted curse to specifically screw that prestige class. Lets just say that some regions are not friendly to Occult Slayers...
cycloptic_squirrel 06-21-07, 04:20 AM	I remember one particular Geoff AR: GEO5-08 Sorrow as Deep as Night. An entire page was devoted to what you could do with your favors of Duchess Calisse. On it were things like "any DMG item of 50K or less," "learn to wildshape into a dire elk," "take a griffon as a paladin mount," "gain a Luna Moth mount," and then the fluff like "join the Old Lore College of Canaith," "gain a satyr cohort who can only advance by HD or as a bard who only stays with you for two years after the date on the AR," and "be awarded 1000 acres as a life estate." I fondly recall the mod, though I had to dig through my ARs to confirm that we were talking about the same adventure. To me, that was the mod where I attained the rank of Universally Waxy Wombat on Fire and somehow ended up with a half-fey child. I talk of that mod far more often than the one where I got a favor for "any ring/rod/staff in the DMG under X". Both adventures were played at cons in the same month and I'm glad I played both, but it's pretty clear which left a bigger impression on me. In my opinion, though, promoting roleplaying in LG is a lost cause. A four-hour slot is just not enough time to both slog through a mod and actually roleplay beyond a brief description at the beginning that doesn't end up mattering. The campaign would have to change fundamentally for roleplaying to start actually meaning something. Four hours is enough. More would be better, but if you restrain yourself at certain points it works well. You can play it where you have the 40 second intro and then let people think of you as the generic cleric for the rest of the mod, but it doesn't have to be that way. For a good roleplay experience, I need one other person at the table and a DM who at least isn't bothered by chatter. If everyone at the table is on board, the mod just takes off, though these are the tables that have to watch time very closely. The other thing is that you can't always wait for roleplay opportunities, sometimes you have to take them by force. Roleplay also doesn't have to have the attention of the entire table; side conversations are a great way to boost your RP intake. In the end, does it matter? Depends on how you look at it. At the end of the day, if I compare myself to someone who resigns to just doing the mod with the 40 second into, we probably have the exact same ARs with very similar numbers. Our characters probably level up very similarly and neither really gets a numerical advantage over the other. But who do you think enjoyed themselves more?
kjenks 06-21-07, 10:07 AM	I fondly recall the mod, though I had to dig through my ARs to confirm that we were talking about the same adventure. To me, that was the mod where I attained the rank of Universally Waxy Wombat on Fire and somehow ended up with a half-fey child. I talk of that mod far more often than the one where I got a favor for "any ring/rod/staff in the DMG under X". Both adventures were played at cons in the same month and I'm glad I played both, but it's pretty clear which left a bigger impression on me. That access was really nice, but I agree about the name. My deep halfling druid is Annoying Squeaking Wheel in Your Head.
Mattastrophic 06-21-07, 10:29 AM	And Matt, sounds like you need to play some more Home LG games :) Plenty of time for roleplay there, I like cons a lot, but I like the POTENTIAL to roleplay just as much. I HATE rushed modules. Heh, and strangely enough, 99% of my play is homeplay. I've experienced a couple of tables in that chillout "play till it's done" environment; maybe I'm just feeling rp-thirsty after playing a ton of Adaptables and it's screwing with my memory... Though I do have a special mission idea that I should get around and make a proposal for. I think I'll fluff it up a bit, since specmissions aren't as tied to combat as modules are, I'm guessing. So, to deviate a bit, now that the topic is at a bit of an impasse, what should I do at this point? Let's assume I'm under a hack-n-slash DM with a couple of hack-n-slash players and a few other players who might be closet roleplayers but are so used to hack-n-slash they never get to try. Are there any particular techniques you guys have used in the past that have successfully encouraged the characters to come out from the behind the dice? -Matt
Mattastrophic 06-21-07, 10:31 AM	That access was really nice, but I agree about the name. My deep halfling druid is Annoying Squeaking Wheel in Your Head. Oh, the mod itself was great, I was referring to the second AR, which presents crunchy and fluffy options. -Matt aka Sol, grey elf Virtuoso... Seldom Hopping Mackerel of Particular Note. Enough syllables to lead an army... or at least a unit of unicorns.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-21-07, 11:11 AM	Are there any particular techniques you guys have used in the past that have successfully encouraged the characters to come out from the behind the dice? Speaking in character can do wonders. Especially when the mod doesn't call for it. Compare: "I greyhawk the bodies." "Oi, elf! What ye smelly orc beside ya have besides that durn spiked chain and a consumed drought of embiggification? I'd kill for a stick o' chewing gum, but not findin' one on this guy. I greyhawk the orc next to me, any gum?" It might not be the high roleplay you're craving, but it's a start. I've found that if you want to get into the deep roleplay, it helps to break the ice with something. Side conversations also work well, especially in the mid-combat lull of rule referencing. As long as you both pay attention enough to when you're up in initiative and you already have your actions planned out.
Mattastrophic 06-21-07, 12:12 PM	It might not be the high roleplay you're craving, but it's a start. I've found that if you want to get into the deep roleplay, it helps to break the ice with something. Side conversations also work well, especially in the mid-combat lull of rule referencing. As long as you both pay attention enough to when you're up in initiative and you already have your actions planned out. Well, I am playing a bardic-type, so your point does spawn a few ideas. Perhaps I could open up every combat with a cool line or two? I'm recalling how in V for Vendetta, V started the first fight scene with "The multiplying villainies of nature do swarm upon him..." Maybe a small arsenal of badass lines would help in this regard. Or perhaps a witty riposte with my combat maneuvers, even if the badguys never actually speak. Question, though: How to place these verbal repartees without being really annoying? Remember who I'm working with here. -Matt
cycloptic_squirrel 06-21-07, 12:50 PM	Question, though: How to place these verbal repartees without being really annoying? Remember who I'm working with here. I've found that RP tends to work on the snowball effect. If you start up, it's a lot easier for the second guy to join in, and even easier for the third guy. Oftentimes the DM will start with his own combat quips so long as you show some desire to interact in a way other than just sticking your sword through his ribcage. Best advice I can give is to pay attention to the mood at the table, but don't pre-empt yourself. There are times where I've tried it and it fell flat. I don't know if it was the table, the timing, or if I was just having an off day. I kept it up for a bit, but then dropped it; and I wasn't really any worse off than had I not tried it. The key here is to have fun yourself; half the fun of roleplay is IC development, and while that can't happen in a vacuum, you'd be surprised how much you can accomplish by just asking, "OK, how would my character react to this?" or "What does he think about this whole situation?" There have been tables where the RP didn't really resonate with anyone else, but also didn't get the impression that anyone was becoming annoyed, more along the lines of, "He's here for the RP, let him do his thing." And I had fun, more or less soloing my RP and getting an AR at the end for some crunch. That said here are three things I'd avoid: 1) Don't take up too much time. Nothing annoys people faster than when the mod starts to drag or they think that the mod won't finish due to time constraints. Fit in the RP where you can, but don't bog the plot with it. Best thing here is to add a short IC line with every action or even replacing OOC actions with IC dialog; ex. "I ask him about his mother. She seems like she'd have something to do with it." vs. "Sir, I do not quite understand what in the light of Pelor your mother would have to do with the robberies. Am I dense or are you being purposefully obtuse?" 2) Don't force it. It might feel out of place at first, but after the first 20-30 minutes, if you're not having fun with it, chances are no one else is either. 3) Don't put RP above all else; know your priorities and respect the priorities of everyone else at the table. RP is great and few will begrudge you if you steal moments when you can, but when you're three hours in with only one combat encounter, do everything possible to speed things up. People are much less likely to fondly remember a mod that had wonderful RP but ended with half an AR due to the time limit.
Mattastrophic 06-21-07, 01:11 PM	I've found that RP tends to work on the snowball effect. If you start up, it's a lot easier for the second guy to join in, and even easier for the third guy. Oftentimes the DM will start with his own combat quips so long as you show some desire to interact in a way other than just sticking your sword through his ribcage. Yeah, that's probably the best way of going about it with this crowd. An RP-army of one, huzzah! -Matt
solbergb 06-21-07, 02:58 PM	Lets just say that some regions are not friendly to Occult Slayers... Actually THAT curse wasn't what the special mission was for. Although one person at my table had that curse and the triad/metaregional coordinators threw in a nice bonus for that player too. (I didn't ask for it as author and neither did the player). That special mission was about removing a little thing picked up by Pale Pholtans from a diabolic source while attempting to steer the Dimre heretics back onto the One True Path. Figuring out how a level 6 party was going to get three Wish effects while doing APL-appropriate things was quite challenging as an author :) PITA = Pain in the fundiment (I think the "A" word would get censored on this board) My wife and I always seem to get some roleplay in even in "brisk" sessions, but our strategy is to do the in character byplay (or bickering) while the GM is busy looking stuff up, placing miniatures or working on a one-on-one dialog with another character. We sometimes have to tell the GM "we can do this all day....please just stop us when you're ready to continue". Some of our characters "chew on the scenery" more than others. For us though it is a rare module where we don't get to roleplay at all. One thing that can help is roleplaying DURING combat. This for us is a holdover of 10-12 years of superhero roleplaying games, where you are expected to monologue, talk trash and otherwise interact with the opposition during fights (including trying to convince people to switch sides or give up which can sometimes lead to rushed diplomacy or even intimidation, but usually is just flavor). That's something I try to encourage when on the DM side of the table too. Even if there is no shared language, gestures can sometimes get the idea across...
Mattastrophic 06-21-07, 04:00 PM	One thing that can help is roleplaying DURING combat. This for us is a holdover of 10-12 years of superhero roleplaying games, where you are expected to monologue, talk trash and otherwise interact with the opposition during fights (including trying to convince people to switch sides or give up which can sometimes lead to rushed diplomacy or even intimidation, but usually is just flavor). That's something I try to encourage when on the DM side of the table too. Even if there is no shared language, gestures can sometimes get the idea across... That reminds me... how would a DM resolve in-combat Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate, without spending any actions on it? I'm guessing there really aren't any written mechanics for it, but I wonder. -Matt
solbergb 06-21-07, 07:08 PM	Mostly I don't. It's roleplay that doesn't normally change the decisions of the bad guys unless all it does is verbally describe a shift in the situation that is obvious even without the chatter. When the four rogues attack the party, and three are instantly vaporized, the fourth one may act as if he's been intimidated even without anyone having to roll dice. When a PC does something to prove that the whole battle is a case of mistaken identity, the attitude of the NPC's may shift without a diplomacy check being required. Bluff attempts to convince the enemy that the situation has changed are at normal modifiers (ie, easier if it is consistent with evidence and the NPC wants to believe, much harder if inconsistent with evidence or the enemy doesn't want to believe it). At least at my table. Complicated bluffs aren't possible given the communication constraints but (to quote one successful bluff we did in an intro mod) - NPC is invisible. He's been chased away from the only windows and is heading for the only door...which appears to have been sealed off with a wall of stone. My PC calls out to the empty air "You should just give up. The guard has already been called and we can keep you in the building till your invisiblitity wears off". (the only thing not true was that we'd thought to call the guard before trying to take him down. but it was a pretty plausible bluff given where we were. I rolled a decent bluff check, he didn't roll very good sense motive, and given that the situation seemed to be as I presented it, he gave up. He didn't know the wall was illusory....)
Frumpkis 06-22-07, 04:47 AM	The most important roleplay tip, I would say, is to keep it fun. In a (high) fantasy game such as D&D, roleplay needn't be a completely serious dramatic exercise. Don't be afraid to poke fun at your PCs through your roleplaying. Have your gnomish bard tell lame jokes. Have your dumb half-orc make a confused face when someone uses big words. While I would try to make my PCs unique and not just fall back on cliches, sometimes it's fun to play off the stereotypes. For example, I play a cleric of Lendor (Suel god of time, tedium, and patience). Whenever we get a player handout, I'll reach for it and start reading it in my drawling in-character voice. The whole table will laugh, and usually someone else will say in-character "y'know what, why don't you let me read that". The point is, by keeping your roleplay fun and light, you give your fellow players a laugh at your character's expense, which oftens loosens them up. They then feel more at ease to engage in roleplay themselves, and everyone wins.
Hariman 06-22-07, 10:22 PM	The most important roleplay tip, I would say, is to keep it fun. In a (high) fantasy game such as D&D, roleplay needn't be a completely serious dramatic exercise. Don't be afraid to poke fun at your PCs through your roleplaying. Have your gnomish bard tell lame jokes. Have your dumb half-orc make a confused face when someone uses big words. While I would try to make my PCs unique and not just fall back on cliches, sometimes it's fun to play off the stereotypes. For example, I play a cleric of Lendor (Suel god of time, tedium, and patience). Whenever we get a player handout, I'll reach for it and start reading it in my drawling in-character voice. The whole table will laugh, and usually someone else will say in-character "y'know what, why don't you let me read that". The point is, by keeping your roleplay fun and light, you give your fellow players a laugh at your character's expense, which oftens loosens them up. They then feel more at ease to engage in roleplay themselves, and everyone wins. Oh, you mean like telling the story of why my male human rogue/wizard spent time as a female elf. And then later spent time as a female halfling. And is now back to his original self. I've seen mods that have great sections that really loosen the players up. Like Desecrators of the Lord's Tomb.
Reska 06-23-07, 12:35 PM	"Fluffy" ARs also promote that elitist bent that the Stormwind Fallacy addresses. People who spend their resources on fluff are very often the same types of people who think that taking the fluff makes them better roleplayers than the people who don't. I can even cite an example, where one player spent many tens thousands of pieces of gold on her entirely-fluffy inn, and because of that she thought she was the roleplaying queen, going so far as to impose her regalness on others. Let's not encourage that kind of behavior, please. I realize it's not the fluff that's at fault, but the players who abuse it. But then again, the same could be said of Divine Metamagic, and we all know what happened to that. I know the player Matt is mentioning. She is a good role-player, but she does tend to force her role-playing on you, and hope you bend to her will. She also tends to use the role-playing as a reason for changing how the rules work (don't ever ask her why she thinks Deathwatch doesn't work). That's why in her case, I just grunt and deal with it. It's not worth alienating a friend because of their role-playing habits. As for items I'd like access to...I want access to Walker in the Waste. I'd give up all my progression now for that class. For regular items: I'm not sure if there is anything I personally want. I'd love more stuff for my Animal Companion to use...like, say, something that increases his intelligence without being a Headband?
gomeztoo 06-23-07, 03:31 PM	As for items I'd like access to...I want access to Walker in the Waste. I'd give up all my progression now for that class. Seconded! My druid is so ready for that Prestige Class...
Reylance 06-23-07, 04:28 PM	Sorrow as Deep as Night: I was Brazenly Twirling Hedgehog With a Full Bladder.
Hariman 06-23-07, 11:09 PM	Favors that let you either make extra money or cover the cost of Expendable items/raise deads/reincarnates. I have spent far too much gold on expendable items just to survive. Not to mention the 3 reincarnates (One at material cost only) and one half price raise dead.
_metz_ 06-24-07, 01:59 AM	Favors that let you either make extra money or cover the cost of Expendable items/raise deads/reincarnates. I have spent far too much gold on expendable items just to survive. Not to mention the 3 reincarnates (One at material cost only) and one half price raise dead. The Iuz Metaregion used to give out a bit of stuff like that. I don't get it anymore though since I moved to Ratik. (now I get things like 'Elves only MARGINALLY hate you', IN the NMR modules hehehe not as useful really :P)
Lomiat 06-24-07, 11:44 AM	The Iuz Metaregion used to give out a bit of stuff like that. I don't get it anymore though since I moved to Ratik. (now I get things like 'Elves only MARGINALLY hate you', IN the NMR modules hehehe not as useful really :P) Yeah, of course the IUZ metaregion used to give out such favors because they expected to make you use them :P Then there were a bunch of softy mods. Now that the difficulty level's picking up again (though where are the hordes of undead and evil outsiders?), perhaps we'll see a few more such favors. Then again, perhaps I'd be frightened if I saw the favor that said something about: When your PC next suffers an irrecoverable death in an IUZ mod, you may write to (circle-email-address) to report the death and get more details... Maybe something like that would mean that Iuz is done poking around in the Abyss and is ready to get back to action.
Eric Anondson 06-24-07, 02:30 PM	Maybe something like that would mean that Iuz is done poking around in the Abyss and is ready to get back to action.No one conquered a layer of the Abyss in a day!
Britt 06-24-07, 02:43 PM	No one conquered a layer of the Abyss in a day! Actually, since there are infinite layers, someone has. Actually, an infinite number of demons are conquering infinite numbers of layers at every instant in time. Freaky, huh?
Timlagor 06-24-07, 03:36 PM	infinite layers doesn't necessarily mean that there is infinite variation. Given how conerned Birtt seems to be about gp/xp ratios I wouldn't expect too many cheap Raises in the near future.
Britt 06-24-07, 03:39 PM	infinite layers doesn't necessarily mean that there is infinite variation. Damn, you got me there. Given how conerned Birtt seems to be about gp/xp ratios I wouldn't expect too many cheap Raises in the near future. Correct. I dislike those types of favors, and am four-square against discounted items.
_metz_ 06-24-07, 09:22 PM	Damn, you got me there. Correct. I dislike those types of favors, and am four-square against discounted items. Better stop Killing everyone in Iuz games then :P Perrenland/Iuz was such a tough battle, (still had GREAT roleplay though) I LOVED the modules. A lot of Undead though. Not enough evil outsiders. <at least you can sneak attack a demon> (Though I know this policy has been changed by the writers involved :P) Some of those Iuz favours were REALLY useful though, and the number of players I know who needed em...
Hariman 06-25-07, 12:00 AM	Better stop Killing everyone in Iuz games then :P Perrenland/Iuz was such a tough battle, (still had GREAT roleplay though) I LOVED the modules. A lot of Undead though. Not enough evil outsiders. <at least you can sneak attack a demon> (Though I know this policy has been changed by the writers involved :P) Some of those Iuz favours were REALLY useful though, and the number of players I know who needed em... A level of Cleric or a level of Sorcerer and a dip into Unseen Seer to get Gravestrike. The XP/GP curve means little when you REMAIN behind the recommended gold because you've lost so much to dying. The tougher mods are also much harder on multiclass characters that are less effective at lower levels and more effective at higher levels. I know this from personal experience when playing my rogue/wizard and from the favored soul who was the other death at the recent table of Dominion on BS. I know I'd like to see LESS TU draining AR penalties. I'd have 10 extra TUs if I didn't get a certain AR penalty.
_metz_ 06-25-07, 12:16 AM	A level of Cleric or a level of Sorcerer and a dip into Unseen Seer to get Gravestrike. The XP/GP curve means little when you REMAIN behind the recommended gold because you've lost so much to dying. I know I'd like to see LESS TU draining AR penalties. I'd have 10 extra TUs if I didn't get a certain AR penalty. Some Rogues aren't willing to become casters to become useful Hariman. I personally KNOW Unseen seer is the best option, BUT it doesn't fit my PCs character at all. THe propensity of Undead in Perrenland was something noticed by all, and as such Rogues were the rarest class there. I felt that was a bad thing and welcomed Iuz sending in some of his demons, it makes rogues in the region more viable. (My character will end up with 10 or even 13 levels of rogue)
Hariman 06-25-07, 12:30 AM	Some Rogues aren't willing to become casters to become useful Hariman. I personally KNOW Unseen seer is the best option, BUT it doesn't fit my PCs character at all. THe propensity of Undead in Perrenland was something noticed by all, and as such Rogues were the rarest class there. I felt that was a bad thing and welcomed Iuz sending in some of his demons, it makes rogues in the region more viable. (My character will end up with 10 or even 13 levels of rogue) I'm glad you're not succumbing to the "must be the best" mentality that possesses some players. I guess this means that you'd like a Greater Truedeath augment crystal. (I think I have that name right.) I'd planned my rogue as a caster, so he was headed for wizard/prestige classes before unseen seer. And it got him pretty well insulted by one of the players at a recent game. "I don't consider him very effective" didn't make me like that player any more than I already did. Now granted, the character wasn't horribly effective to start with, firing 2d6 and 2d8 orbs for a few rounds doesn't measure up to the Druid's bear out damaging the party tank. But he's one to talk with his Mystic Theurge who was on the ground or in the back for half of the fights in the mod. To each his own. I wish your rogue better luck than mine has had.
copper_wyrmling 06-25-07, 01:02 AM	I agree with Hariman, I truly hate losing TUs - especially when it's a near-inevitable consequence of the scenario rather than a punishment for evil or stupid acts. It punishes me as a player, rather than affecting my characters directly: it doesn't affect their power for their level at all, but it means I can't play certain games with my friends, can't finish series, have to play inappropriate-level characters in some games or miss out altogether, etc. As an example, due to a 12-TU hit last year on my sorcerer, I had to switch characters for the last two mods of the Bright Sands series, and I'll be playing a bunch of max-APL-12 mods with a L15 character near the end of this year, since my friends want to do them at APL 12 and my L10-14 PCs are going to be out of TUs by then. Also, it would be nice if in high-APL mods authors gave an explanation for added TU costs other than "travel time" - or even said "If the PCs don't have a way to travel rapidly by magical means, it costs extra TUs to do this". PCs who can teleport / windwalk etc get to use their abilities, other parties can buy NPC spellcasting or just spend the TUs. I've seen extra TU costs which make sense at all APLs - "Do you want to spend a month doing reconstruction work on the devastated city?" for example, higher-level PCs just play a bigger role in the reconstruction - and I don't mind those nearly so much. (The 12 TUs on my sorc was also in that category: it was annoying to lose the TUs, but at least I had a decent in-game explanation for it.) I would also like it if module blurbs contained a note saying, "This scenario includes an option to spend up to X extra time units". Obviously this wouldn't cover involuntary TU penalties such as imprisonment or getting stuck on another plane, but it would avoid the situation where you're offered the option to do something very cool for your character but have to turn it down because you don't have enough TUs left. This is especially true of scenarios which have an extension round: it's very annoying to find out at the end of a convention slot that there's an extension which you can't possibly play because of time constraints, or to discover on a four-person table that one of the PCs doesn't have the TUs left to do the extension and so nobody can attempt it.
_metz_ 06-25-07, 04:42 AM	I often cheekily warn players that such an option may occur if I know they are saving TUs for their character. It is definitely a pet peeve of mine when I lose extra TUs and would have played a different game/not played at all as a result. As for the talk on my rogue, IT does quite well, as he is a TWF Trapfinder, but in some mods he does struggle a bit. People like him though as he has a Ship, a wizard cohort, (with a monkey) and if it CAN be sneak attacked is capable of a fair bit of damage, especially when Hasted. (Over 15d6 in one round if all attacks hit +static damage with only a +1 weapon can be useful) Of course I realise there are much better ways to make characters, but if an optimal character criticises my Rogue's PC, he doesn't get to ride on the boat, receive Buffs form my cohort, etc. I am one of those with hte viewpoint that rogues 'should' be able to disable traps, but only if they are a straight rogue or something. Shadowdancers, Unseen Seers, etc are a different story. 9They use rogue levels for other purposes)
pedr 06-25-07, 06:06 AM	I don't think I've ever seen a module which has a requirement that you spend extra TUs except where you're imprisoned or enslaved or some other involuntary thing keeps you longer than others who might play the adventure. I've certainly not seen travel time as a basis for extra TU costs - and unless the PCs do something silly which means they spend longer than most people playing the adventure, I don't believe that it's appropriate. TUs are an abstraction, not a measurement of time; there are plenty of modules which take a miniscule amount of time, and plenty which take weeks for the 'cost' of 1 or 2 TUs per round. Those modules are in error, I think, and it sounds like something which ought to be squashed at the Circle level. In fact, I don't see any reason why the formula shouldn't always be followed: TUs lead to ELs lead to XP/GP (allowing for the optional extra encounter format) or lead to spending extra time doing something which will give you a reward (study with this person, research this book, etc) or which account as a penalty for being captured or in a coma or other such major time-draining event which happens because you fail or do something silly.
Hariman 06-25-07, 11:38 AM	I don't think I've ever seen a module which has a requirement that you spend extra TUs except where you're imprisoned or enslaved or some other involuntary thing keeps you longer than others who might play the adventure. I've certainly not seen travel time as a basis for extra TU costs - and unless the PCs do something silly which means they spend longer than most people playing the adventure, I don't believe that it's appropriate. TUs are an abstraction, not a measurement of time; there are plenty of modules which take a miniscule amount of time, and plenty which take weeks for the 'cost' of 1 or 2 TUs per round. Those modules are in error, I think, and it sounds like something which ought to be squashed at the Circle level. In fact, I don't see any reason why the formula shouldn't always be followed: TUs lead to ELs lead to XP/GP (allowing for the optional extra encounter format) or lead to spending extra time doing something which will give you a reward (study with this person, research this book, etc) or which account as a penalty for being captured or in a coma or other such major time-draining event which happens because you fail or do something silly. Cor5-03 Atonement had a "spend 2 extra TUs to accomplish the mission and get the favor" which could be bypassed if you actually succeeded on your mission. But that isn't one of the TU draining "favors" that I don't like. That actually made a lot of sense. It's the "Lose 10" or "Lose x number or y lesser number" AR penalties for failing the mission. There is one particular AR item that drains gold, items AND TUs which I consider the worst AR penalty ever written. TU reduction favors are something nice to find access to. I know that I got good use out of one of those.
kjenks 06-25-07, 12:27 PM	I'd love a chunk of wood that can accept permanent spells. Here are some spells that have Duration: Instantaneous or Duration: Permanent: Arcane Mark, Continual Flame, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Explosive Runes, Fabricate, Fire Trap, Glyph of Warding, Magic Mouth, Phantom Trap, Spellstaff, Wood Shape. A scroll with similar properties would be nice, too, enabling Secret Page, Sepia Snake Sigil, etc. It would be nice to have campaign documentation to allow one of these permanent spells to be cast on this one item. It would be great if an NPC could be paid to cast the spell, but even documentation to allow a PC to keep his own spell going between mods would be nice.
Lightblade 06-25-07, 01:19 PM	Which rules items would I love to have access to? Some of the General (ie nonpsionic) feats from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Specifically, I'd love my archer to have access to Greater Manyshot, since he's a ranger/scout and getting skirmish on each attack would be amazing. But, since the feat hasn't been reprinted and apparently note of XPH has been allowed, my next requests would be Boots of Sidestepping, and the Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, for a limited amount of move + full attack goodness.
just_be_glad_now 06-25-07, 03:09 PM	I would like access to the official list of AR parameters that specify such things as number of items on AR, type and number of favors and words on an AR, things that can't be on an AR etc. Over the years, I've seen a _lot_ of posts by various Circle members of "That's outrageous/broken/overpowered etc. that will never be allowed in the campaign. " That's fine except that I then see it on my next AR in the next metaregion over. Then, I've seen huge variation in the type and value of access: I have ARs with no entries whatsoever (that aren't intros) and an AR or two that lists separately over a hundred different items for a 1-round mod. That second one, btw, falls into the category of quoted as being impossible by various circle members, of course. Thus, as a writer, judge and player I would love to see this list so that we all knew what to expect in terms of campaign and adventure balance, and that issues could be submitted to the circle when observed once, not only when a circle member observes a repeated problem. Now how's that for dreaming for access? :p Oh, and as long as we're here, I'd like my Superior Resistance BACK thank you very much... Brayden Glad
Britt 06-25-07, 03:23 PM	I recommend my authors include 10 to 16 items in the bottom box of the AR. I recommend they weight the access to lower APLs, as the higher APLs gain access to that as well. Anything less than about 10 or more than about 16 makes me ask questions. I won't allow more than about 20 items in the bottom box, unless it's something special like a two-rounder or large APL spread. I also pay attention to how much access the top box is giving out in relation to the bottom box, the nature of the items, their book source, where in the adventure they are found or granted, the type of access, etc etc. I've recently started paying attention to how much crunch vs. fluff there is in the top box. I have recommended that authors stick primarily to DMG/MIC items and use the charts in the MIC for rough guidelines of what to offer at what APLs. That's not a requirement, but a good suggestion.
solbergb 06-25-07, 05:21 PM	DMG+MIC isn't a bad idea. Most stuff outside of the MIC is hideously overpriced, except for the items that are way underpriced... There is more of a unifying philosophy of pricing in the MIC, near as I can tell, and now that the basic items and mundane items are mostly open access there should be a lot more room for "fun" stuff.
Baracq 06-25-07, 10:19 PM	Magebane. That's all I want.
Timlagor 06-25-07, 11:06 PM	britt, you should look really hard at the price of anything from MIC that says 3/day and doesn't have an attunement requirement.
Baracq 06-25-07, 11:29 PM	britt, you should look really hard at the price of anything from MIC that says 3/day and doesn't have an attunement requirement. Ah, yes, I love items that are 2-3/day for LG. It's like having two levels of barbarian and the extra rage feat: All the functionality you'll need for that class - evar!
solbergb 06-26-07, 12:45 PM	if it takes a std or greater action to activate, limited use items work just fine in LG, because the currency is combat actions, not "running out of charges". lower prices make some of these worthwhile, instead of 15,000gp std action activation items that nobody ever buys. The swift action stuff that lasts one round is in pretty much the same category. Swift or immediate action things that last a whole combat, however, should be scrutinized carefully.
Britt 06-26-07, 04:28 PM	britt, you should look really hard at the price of anything from MIC that says 3/day and doesn't have an attunement requirement. Actually, we've already talked about the issue a little bit internally.
boolean 06-26-07, 10:01 PM	Magebane. That's all I want. Even with the changes in MIC? britt, you should look really hard at the price of anything from MIC that says 3/day and doesn't have an attunement requirement. Part of the problem with these items is the way access works in LG. If a character finds one of these items on an AR, they can buy as many as they can afford, right? So, if I defeat an enemy with one of these items I could buy two or three of them even though the enemy only had one. This makes it easier than it should be to get around the uses/day limits.
Hariman 06-26-07, 10:25 PM	Even with the changes in MIC? Part of the problem with these items is the way access works in LG. If a character finds one of these items on an AR, they can buy as many as they can afford, right? So, if I defeat an enemy with one of these items I could buy two or three of them even though the enemy only had one. This makes it easier than it should be to get around the uses/day limits. Is it worth having nine uses of X item ability? I can't see it being worth the uses if you have to switch out an item during battle. Especially not if you pass up other items which might provide a greater benefit. Admittedly, though, Pearls of Power and Certain Metamagic Rods are excellent examples of items to have a great deal of.
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 09:39 AM	Part of the problem with these items is the way access works in LG. Waitasecond, there's a problem with item access in LG? It's been working fine for me since Y3 when I began. You're making a mountain over nothing, boolean. -Matt
Timlagor 06-28-07, 01:05 AM	I don't remeber the specifics but there were definitely items I'd take 3 of and wear one for each combat ...or more to pass round.
Dempster 06-28-07, 10:34 PM	Phylactery of undead turning DMG Ephod of authority MIC Talisman of undead mastery MIC Why? Because I am sick of my radiant servant of Pelor being unable to turn any of the undead in mods at my APL even with a maxed out turning check.
Dempster 06-28-07, 10:39 PM	Even with the changes in MIC? Part of the problem with these items is the way access works in LG. If a character finds one of these items on an AR, they can buy as many as they can afford, right? So, if I defeat an enemy with one of these items I could buy two or three of them even though the enemy only had one. This makes it easier than it should be to get around the uses/day limits. I have seen one fix to this in some recent AR's. Some of the MIC items have had purchase limits listed in the access box on the AR. i.e.(you may only purchase one thingamabobber of soandso) Seems like a good way to pevent massive abuse. As far as the logic goes....don't bother with logic in LG access your just going to hurt your brain.
gomeztoo 06-29-07, 03:09 AM	Some of those Iuz favours were REALLY useful though, and the number of players I know who needed em... I perosnally liked teh AR where, for a meager 52 TU a year, you could become a zombie in Iuz army ;)
erickim 07-05-07, 04:18 PM	I have only heard of "know stones" and haven't seen an actual references for them. I think someone said they are in a Dragon or Dungeon magizine, but I don't really know. As I am told, they allow sorcerers to "know" a spell that is contained within the "know stone". Why would I like access to them? I play a sorcerer and an arcane trickster (wizard route). There are advantages to being a sorcerer compared to a wizard. (a) you can cast any of your spells as long as you have slots available, though pearls of power almost allow wizards to mimic this ability. (b) With a feat (rapid metamagic), you can spontaneously apply your metamagic feat as a standard action, though metamagic rods almost allow wizard to mimic this ability. (c) Only when you get past level 8, do sorcerers "have more spells than wizards" (I don't count level 0 spells and assume a reasonable prime attribute for casting). However, pearls of power allow wizards to make up for this advantage. However, I believe these advantages are outweighted by the disadvantages when compared to a wizard (a) fewer feats (level 1 scribe scroll and level 5 bonus feat) (b) smaller ability to cast more diverse spells. The Spell Compendium is not very useful when you have to take basic spells that can be applied to a wide range of situations. The know stones would help fix that. (c) fewer skill points and skill selection due to intelligence being for wizards and sorcerers only get knowledge arcana (d) you are "behind a spell level". This hobbles a sorcerer's primary advantages. You can't use your higher level slots for lower level spells if they don't exist. (e) with the points made above, it makes it more difficult for a sorcerer to enter a prestige class. In conclusion, "know stones" might make sorcerers more playable. The only data that I am aware of about relative frequency of PCs played is the Nyrond.org site. According to the site, there are 738 people with at least one level of wizard, while there are 293 people with at least one level of sorcerer. I acknowledge this is NOT a representative sample, and it can be nuanced, it is the only data I am aware of, and it isn't inconsistent with my play experience that I encounter more people with levels of wizard than sorcerer. There might be other side effects such as allowing more diversity into the types of PCs people play without resorting to WOTC creating new prestige classes. Eric
solbergb 07-05-07, 05:52 PM	There are a lot of mutts with 1 level of wizard that would never choose 1 level of sorcerer. There are a bunch of reasons for this. 1. Intelligence is never entirely a dump stat, and for melee types with combat expertise, they've got to put some points there anyway. 2. pearl of power 1s are cheap and common, and if you combine those with the 3 spell slots you get for a specialist sorcerer, you'll usually get more uses/day of your limited arcane capabilities than you would with sorc levels 3. scribe scroll is useful for further expanding those L1 slots for non-DMG scrolls. If you looked at people who had wiz or sorc as the PRIMARY part of the build, you'd still find more wizards, but the ratio wouldn't be nearly as bad. I find that sorcs in play have "more spells" than a wizard after level 4, not so much because they have a lot more slots, but because every option they know is available out of every slot, limited only by having 1 top tier slot free. Wizards usually lock down some slots with spells that end up not being used or being inferior to the "best of the spells known" option sorcs get.
Dr.Cornelius 07-06-07, 03:27 AM	The Metamagic Penalty is one of the biggest drawbacks for Sorcerers. Since they know far fewer spells, Sorcerers arguably get more out of metamagic than Wizards. For example, an Empowered Magic Missle is not a particularly compelling option over a Fireball for a Wizard. On the other hand, EMM allows a Sorcerer to have an effective 3rd level damage spell and learn a 3rd level utility, buff or hoser instead of Fireball. Unfortunately, Sorcerers are not only down a bonus feat at 5th level but also have to burn a feat to effectively use metamagic. Were the powers-that-be to do the Sorcerer again I imagine that Sorcerers would get a bonus metamagic feat at around 5th level to make up for this. Until 4E comes out you are generally better off with a specialist wizard.
copper_wyrmling 07-06-07, 04:02 AM	Unfortunately, Sorcerers are not only down a bonus feat at 5th level but also have to burn a feat to effectively use metamagic. You're right about the usefulness of metamagic for sorcerers - and being able to apply it on the fly is also a huge advantage relative to wizards - but wrong about this. My metamagic-loving sorcerer did just fine for levels 1 through 11 with the full-round casting time for metamagicked spells: most of the time you don't desperately need to move in the same round you cast, and if you do, a mount and an easy concentration check solves the problem. The biggest annoyances are not being able to cast metamagicked spells in surprise rounds, and not being able to ready metamagicked spells (and at high levels, maybe not being able to take quicken, but there are quite a few nice spells out there to occupy your swift actions). Yes, my sorc grabbed Rapid Metamagic as soon as it became open, but she'd been using metamagicked spells heavily for half her adventuring career before that (before around L6 she didn't use metamagic much). Knowstones are very nice, but there may be a balance reason they're not in the MIC.
Dr.Cornelius 07-06-07, 04:48 AM	Sorcerers and generalist wizards are also at a disadvantage when it comes to Metamagic School Focus, which is one of the key feats to make metamagic cost effective. I can see how a Sorcerer could get by with full-round metamagic, but my guess is this is an advanced technique appropriate to experienced players. As to mounts, how common are they in your area? I suppose it works for haflings and gnomes but around here there are a lot of mods with confined spaces, shipboard encounters and other conditions that take mounts out of the game. Not to mention the problem that basic mounts don't scale and are very vulnerable to area effects. No question that Know Stones have balance issues and could become abusive, but there is also no reason why sorcerer-specific items like Mememto Magica should not be as common as Pearl of Power and wizard-specific items. Sorcerers typically get the short end of the stick, but as you say - it is a good challenge for skilled players.
Hariman 07-06-07, 06:21 AM	No question that Know Stones have balance issues and could become abusive, but there is also no reason why sorcerer-specific items like Mememto Magica should not be as common as Pearl of Power and wizard-specific items. Sorcerers typically get the short end of the stick, but as you say - it is a good challenge for skilled players. Actually, I believe that Knowstones need to be in a sorcerer's hand to be used. That means that you would have to spend extra actions to draw and stow each knowstone. Although, yes, we would see sorcerers with nothing but knowstones in their inventory because having more spells is incredibly useful for a sorcerer. Especially with still spell. Another issue might be that, as far as I know, knowstones have only been in Dragon magazine. The articles on the MIC's creation said that the writers combed the D&D sourcebooks, so Dragon might have been passed over as not an official sourcebook.
copper_wyrmling 07-06-07, 07:34 AM	Sorcerers and generalist wizards are also at a disadvantage when it comes to Metamagic School Focus, which is one of the key feats to make metamagic cost effective. Sure, it's an excellent feat. I wouldn't say you need it to make metamagic cost effective, though: it's already pretty powerful. (Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Sculpted Evard's Black Tentacles, Sculpted Glitterdust, Split Ray Enervation and Split Ray Empowered Scorching Ray are all rather nice and seem well worth the spell slot, and those are just the examples that my particular sorcerer is most fond of.) I can see how a Sorcerer could get by with full-round metamagic, but my guess is this is an advanced technique appropriate to experienced players. Not really - I created my LG sorc about six months after I was first introduced to 3.5ed D&D (a bit over three years ago). By the time she got to L5 or so and I was looking for L6 feats, I'd figured out how metamagic could be useful to her, and taking up a full-round action just didn't seem like a very big deal to me. Note that it is a full-round action, not a 1-round casting time: the spell completes within your turn. As to mounts, how common are they in your area? I suppose it works for haflings and gnomes but around here there are a lot of mods with confined spaces, shipboard encounters and other conditions that take mounts out of the game. Not to mention the problem that basic mounts don't scale and are very vulnerable to area effects. My L12 sorc is human, my L5 sorc is a gnome. My gnome is only L5, so hasn't really hit the metamagic-happy stage yet. For my human sorcerer, though, by far the most common reason for her to feel that she really needed to move and cast a metamagicked spell was that a bunch of her spells were Close range, and it was easy for her to end up just out-of-range of the monster she was targeting. (Yes, she had Medium and Long-range options, but her Close-range spells tended to do about twice as much damage and were much more effective at debuffing the enemy.) However, this was usually only a serious problem in open terrain: in areas where large creatures can't travel, combat usually begins with everyone fairly close to each other, so short range on spells doesn't pose a problem. Thus you usually only need a mount (for purposes of move + metamagic) in places where they can move fairly freely. My sorcerer did go for several levels without a mount because of the vulnerability problem, and eventually solved it by picking up Phantom Steed for free renewable mounts. (I was going to buy a flying carpet, but a discussion on Infinite Monkeys indicating that some GMs would rule the carpet as an unattended item made me ditch that idea: I wasn't going to spend 20k on a hardness-0 magic item only to see it evaporate in the first fireball.) That seemed to work pretty well. No question that Know Stones have balance issues and could become abusive, but there is also no reason why sorcerer-specific items like Mememto Magica should not be as common as Pearl of Power and wizard-specific items. Sorcerers typically get the short end of the stick, but as you say - it is a good challenge for skilled players. As suggested in another thread, I prefer runestaffs to memento magicas as a sorcerer PoP replacement. By the time full-caster sorcerers can feasibly buy memento magicas for a certain spell level, they don't tend to suffer from any shortage of spells at that level: memento magicas are much better for bards, who have very few spell slots compared to sorcerers, and spellsword types who tend to burn many of their spells into arcane strike. Runestaffs are almost like knowstones except for the times / day limits: importantly, they let you apply your metamagic feats to the runestaff spells.
solbergb 07-06-07, 10:20 AM	As to mounts, how common are they in your area? I suppose it works for haflings and gnomes but around here there are a lot of mods with confined spaces, shipboard encounters and other conditions that take mounts out of the game. Not to mention the problem that basic mounts don't scale and are very vulnerable to area effects. In shipboard/confined spaces you can generally stand still and have the BDF block for you. It's the wide open terrain where you need to move and fire, either to get a close range effect off or to avoid enemies going around your blockers. In those situations mounts work just fine. I didn't really have the close range problem Copper's sorceress had because I had enlarge spell. My close range spells were actually halfway between short and medium when I needed them to be. I took the feat for my utility spells though. Enlarged tenser disks and servant hordes don't pop when you do rapid combat maneuvers nearly so easily as when they're just at "close" range maximum, and when doing remote trap manipulation, it's nice to be out of "close" range...as many traps have effects that go out that far. If they die, you buy another one. Assuming you're not using the mount spell or Phantom Steed, in which case you create another one. (My sorceress's light horse bought at APL3 was upgraded to light warhorse after 2 years of taking it into horrible places...I just figure it is the same horse and it no longer spooks...it's still alive, although these days I sometimes leave it at home and use phantom steed instead). Seriously. Metamagic is SO much easier to use for a sorcerer than a wizard it isn't even funny. Losing the move action is a very small price to pay to have it apply to any of your spells known that can be affected, whenever you need it. Consider silent spell and the wizard. Usually it will be used on one spell a day, something like dimension door. If somebody casts a second silence spell on you, you're done. You also can't choose, say, to just bump all of your party buffs or self-buffs up a tier because you want to buff on the approach while sneaking up on an enemy.... However not having to use the move action is good enough that it is worth a feat. Actions are important. Most folks would pay for a feat that let them get a free move action once or twice every combat.
LachlarlanIII 07-06-07, 12:23 PM	If I had a turning cleric I would want access to a Scepter of the Netherworld (Libris Mortis)
control freak 07-06-07, 12:36 PM	i want more undead turning stuff i find turn resistance to be stupid :weep: i turn at my level +2 cus of imp turning and ephod of athority but thats it
LachlarlanIII 07-24-07, 10:53 AM	Sorry for unearthing this thread. After thinking it over, for non-item access I would like to see the spell Otto's Imperative Ambulation (Complete Mage I think). It's a bard spell, but forces an opponent to take a move action before taking any other actions. It completely removes the threat of having a full-attack by a raging cloud giant thrown at your front liners, etc.
control freak 07-25-07, 09:59 PM	britt, you should look really hard at the price of anything from MIC that says 3/day and doesn't have an attunement requirement. Actually, we've already talked about the issue a little bit internally. does that mean you are considering encourageing 4 encounters/mod :OMG! that would mean extra rage wasnt broken as it is and removes the need for a class:rolleyes:
clannagh 07-25-07, 10:26 PM	All the free raises and resurrects in IUZ were putting PCs way to far above the gold curve. I personally feel they were actually a bad thing and furthermore I believe they are no longer necessary now you can get raised for 2500gc + time units. Year 7 IUZ by the way is as deadly as ever but with a refreshing new and more varied crop of bad guys.
kjenks 07-26-07, 09:28 AM	Personally, I'd like to see access to Limited druid spells, mostly from Spell Compendium: Align Fang Blinding Spittle Breath of the Jungle Burrow and Mass Burrow Charge of the Triceratops Conjure Ice Beast (any) (Frostburn) Crabwalk Death Ward, Mass Enhance Wild Shape Enrage Animal Giant's Wrath Girallon's Blessing Heal Animal Companion Lion's Charge Magic Fang, Superior Panacea Planar Tolerance Rapid Burrowing Remove Scent Resistance, Superior Snake's Swiftness, Mass Summon Desert Ally (any) (Sandstorm) Summon Elementite Swarm Surefooted Stride Swim and Mass Swim Wall of Sand Wings of Air and Greater Wings of Air If I could only have one of them, a scroll of Lion's Charge would be great. It will eventually help my mounted lancer druid greatly; I wouldn't need to select the Lion's Pounce feat for him.
Hariman 07-27-07, 06:22 PM	All the free raises and resurrects in IUZ were putting PCs way to far above the gold curve. I personally feel they were actually a bad thing and furthermore I believe they are no longer necessary now you can get raised for 2500gc + time units. Year 7 IUZ by the way is as deadly as ever but with a refreshing new and more varied crop of bad guys. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Come to Keoland. I dare you. Having a few free raises and resurrects out there helps out PCs that would end up suffering BELOW the GP curve because of multiple deaths. The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage from the Races of the Dragon web enhancement for my upcoming Kobold Sorcerer Dracolexi. But I have my doubts if it will make it in. I'd settle for the Slight Build extra for Kobolds. Either that, or more access to Memento Magica. I haven't seen Memento access at all. And I've rarely seen Pearl Access. Hariman
Cardinal Teplin 07-27-07, 07:17 PM	Panacea is my favourite spell. I'd love to see it in the game more often. H
control freak 07-27-07, 08:03 PM	Come to Keoland. I dare you. some people think thier metaregion is amazeingly difficult but frankly often enough the preconception is created because of one of several conditions (all difficult DMS when playing regionals, only easy DMs when playing hard mods) if you like hard mods look for them (IE mods with untired encounters at low apls!) and try and beat those, if you are not looking for them, ask players if they would recomend a mod (some might see this as spoilers but i have already openly advised against playing dominion because of how near a TPK it is) as for items i want to see the shard of the sun, lenses or revelation, cord of favor, vest of freedom of movement, metamagic rods, ring of nine lives, chronocharm of the horizon walker
Hariman 07-27-07, 09:32 PM	some people think thier metaregion is amazeingly difficult but frankly often enough the preconception is created because of one of several conditions (all difficult DMS when playing regionals, only easy DMs when playing hard mods) if you like hard mods look for them (IE mods with untired encounters at low apls!) and try and beat those, if you are not looking for them, ask players if they would recomend a mod (some might see this as spoilers but i have already openly advised against playing dominion because of how near a TPK it is) as for items i want to see the shard of the sun, lenses or revelation, cord of favor, vest of freedom of movement, metamagic rods, ring of nine lives, chronocharm of the horizon walker Oh, admittedly, my last character death in Keoland came from a Scythe Critical. I mean, any mod can have a scythe critical that does 90 damage to one character. That can kill a large range of characters. In one hit. Heck, greataxes, certain polearms, and many other weapons can to the same thing. But there's no doubt that Keoland mods are harder than the usual Core fare. I should know. Four out of Five LG deaths came from Keoland Regionals or Metaregionals. I mainly see close calls in Core modules. Hariman PS: None of the DMs in my area are particularly bloodthirsty. Two of them just have the damnedest luck sometimes. (I've seen one said DM roll low in one encounter, saving a character's life, and then roll high in a later encounter and kill a character.) Actually, one of the local DMs has refused to run certain mods, as he's sick of killing characters during those mods.
control freak 07-27-07, 11:36 PM	i want to see a 2nd part to ephod of athority set in general, and any caster based stuff (eternal wand of fireballs CL= my CL?) But there's no doubt that Keoland mods are harder than the usual Core fare. I should know. Four out of Five LG deaths came from Keoland Regionals or Metaregionals. this might be but at our store we have an uncanny nack for "playing up" if we have a party of 4 scout 5 cleric 5 ftr 4 wiz 4 sorc we will all buy rideing dogs and play up to a 6 (this sounds stupid but we have only had like 4-6 PC deaths at the store and all have been dominion and another unnamed VTF :nonono: (we tend to do tons of scouting and get the drop on characters) and 1 death by a near max damage sea cat (critted on bite+ claw claw rend for like 2 short of max) most of our characters have VERY good team work and in all honesty id like to play some of the mods you think are hard (we KNOW the scouting rules!) we might have an easyer time as our characters tipicaly do the following sorc casts invis rogue/scout goes forward scouts the next few 100 feet comes back and reports (his hide and MS are really nice because he knows to take 10 on each check and if hes found he brings them back and triggers 4-5 readied actions (tipicaly a spiritualy whep 2-3 arrows and a scorching ray/fireball) good team work usualy does this - gives you a surprize round which drops 1 guy from the encounter if you focus(which we do) - gives you some minor advantages(spiritual whep) - allows the party to be well positioned - and most importantly they lost HP first what this does is essentialy instead of them getting a surprize round you get it this puts you around 2 rounds ahead of them and back to the real point of the thread, i want set items, boots, gloves and bracers
_metz_ 07-28-07, 12:47 AM	But there's no doubt that Keoland mods are harder Seriously, I am a little tired of hearing about Keoland Mods, try Iuz and Perrenland mods. I am not saying we have the harder region, but I find it difficult to think it is easier. At least you aren't fighting nothing but uber tweaked or under CR undead. (Or things with odd templates added to other things) (A vampire Template makes everything more fun apparently) No Perrenland Character wanders around without silver Weapons, Oils of Bless weapon, etc etc. Cold Iron weapons are demanded also thanks to old Iuz. Perrenland was under invasion by Iuz's mother. That doesn't do well for a lot of your mods in terms of nice friendly encounters. Try having to buy a restoration scroll every APL 6 mod. Really eats into your gold curve too. Sometimes its nicer to fight some optimised Orcs with spiked chains then a stack of Shadows who constantly drain you. Also straight 'Rogues' were almost an unseen class in Perrenland due to the number of Undead. I am dreading the move back and HOPING for more demons, just so I can sneak attack them with my 'fun' character. When you have an Entire nation of Gamers in one region, the mods are not only well writeen or well supported, but they get very hard as well. Any powergamers need to be catered for, and I don't feel that Keolanders would be better at powergaming than a lot of the people we have here.
Zarron 07-28-07, 12:59 AM	You can take 10 on Hide and Move Silently?
JamesMaissen 07-28-07, 01:17 AM	You can take 10 on Hide and Move Silently? As long as you are not being rushed nor threatened then you can take 10 on any skill with the exception of Use Magic Device. A rogue (or any other high skilled character) benefits greatly from taking 10. Especially on opposed checks that would need to be made multiple times. If you can always do so then at best the opponent gets 10 higher than you on rolls, which may not be sufficient for them to succeed. By rolling you allow that number to potentially climb to 19. That said, Keoland mods can be rough and you don't want to take them for granted, James
control freak 07-28-07, 10:08 AM	yes you can take 10 and when you have like +30 hide + 29 or so MS and take 10 most cant see you with a natural 20 and as for difficulty of mods, i would bet that no mods are more diffucult then other regionals (in general) HOWEVER i would be willing to bet that you have more mods that have lasting effects (drain/neg levels) that you have to pay to get rid of which lowers your over all strength (arent there tipicaly saves for drain? i havent failed any significant saves on my cleric in a while so i wouldnt know and often enough mods we have will take 3-5 days of travel between encounters so we end up getting fully healed between encounters) another thing that i would like access too is higher level scrolls i think they should just be open(up to like level 7-8) so i can risk a caster level check to use a strong spell (it would be nice to have a oh god if this doesnt work... we die) as a side note i have a minor question about something candle of invocation says you may burn it durring, can i burn it for just the last min of preparation get my spells from 1 level up and then blow it out?
Cardinal Teplin 07-28-07, 06:32 PM	and I don't feel that Keolanders would be better at powergaming than a lot of the people we have here. As I understand it, Keoland has some of the most generous ARs in the campaign. Thus its mods need to be a little harder than most. I've not played their mods, so I don't know how hard or easy they are. Certainly none of the descriptions I've heard sound particularly bad. A single scythe critical for 90 is nasty, and yes it will simply kill a lot of characters. Then again, I played in a metaregional where multiple scythe criticals were looking to do 650+hp to a single character in a single round, all before his first action came up in initiative. Sometimes these things happen. Plenty of people think that their own region is the hardest/best roleplayed/most detailed/most fun/etc. region in the world. As an attitude, it's not that unusual.
Hariman 07-28-07, 07:09 PM	As I understand it, Keoland has some of the most generous ARs in the campaign. Thus its mods need to be a little harder than most. I've not played their mods, so I don't know how hard or easy they are. Certainly none of the descriptions I've heard sound particularly bad. A single scythe critical for 90 is nasty, and yes it will simply kill a lot of characters. Then again, I played in a metaregional where multiple scythe criticals were looking to do 650+hp to a single character in a single round, all before his first action came up in initiative. Sometimes these things happen. Plenty of people think that their own region is the hardest/best roleplayed/most detailed/most fun/etc. region in the world. As an attitude, it's not that unusual. And there are items like the "Vest of Timely Undulation", "Ring of Instant Escape" (I keep dying on failed reflex saves, with a HIGH reflex save character) that help prevent random critical deaths or failed reflex save deaths. I'd really love access to the Immediate Magic alternate class feature for wizards, but I'm pretty sure that that will be closed in an upcoming LGCS or in a Dispel Confusion. Also, there are new Draconic feats in Races of the Dragon. Those would add variety to the draconic sorcerers out there. Versatile Spellcaster is another feat I'd like to see access to. Hariman
control freak 07-28-07, 09:07 PM	take levels in a slightly underpowered but fun class, montebank its like the immediate magic accept that you still try to be a rogue, and at 15th you are next to unkillable (immediate action dim door= near unkillable since your never flatfooted) and one last thing on the difficult metaregion, hows your AR favors (are they worth the danger? or are they favors like a favor gives you access to some mundane whepon that you will probably never buy or amazeing like access to (insert long list here)) i got an amazeing favor from a relativly difficult mod (lots of encounters at like APL or APL+1 with rest rest time but none of them should kill a well prepaired party) and gave me +2 saves for a long time and gave me a permenant immediate action to heal myself (AS A FAVOR!) but i never felt endangered till the last encounter which i had full HP 10 temp HP and 10 bears endurance HP and droped to 1 HP in 1 round (granted i was 5 playing up to 6 but i had 63 hps as a cleric.. and AC 25=( ) and i would like to reiterate to those that read this i want a shard of the sun badly, and other pieces of the ephod set so i get another +1 to saves to clerics shard of the sun can serve as a holy symbol and is quite amazeing because it does it every round (and the true believer feat would become more usefull) i would also be happy to never have issues with shadow templated monsters again (im level 5 and have faced around 10 shadow templated monsters, i now prepair daylight regularly although it tipicaly defaults to heal spells)
Cardinal Teplin 07-29-07, 08:54 AM	And there are items like the "Vest of Timely Undulation", "Ring of Instant Escape" (I keep dying on failed reflex saves, with a HIGH reflex save character) that help prevent random critical deaths or failed reflex save deaths. Yes indeed. The character in my example didn't actually die, but it's worth bearing in mind that sometimes, despite your best preparations, characters will die.
Hariman 07-29-07, 08:40 PM	Yes indeed. The character in my example didn't actually die, but it's worth bearing in mind that sometimes, despite your best preparations, characters will die. True. My sorcerer DIDN'T have a Vest of Timely Undulation at the time. And here I'd scoffed at paying 1,125 gold to negate one critical hit. "Live and Learn" applies quite well here. He's getting a Vest of Timely Undulation immediately. Just in case. After all. The DM rolled another 20 in that encounter. After we'd disarmed the enemy. Hariman
copper_wyrmling 07-29-07, 11:09 PM	True. My sorcerer DIDN'T have a Vest of Timely Undulation at the time. And here I'd scoffed at paying 1,125 gold to negate one critical hit. "Live and Learn" applies quite well here. He's getting a Vest of Timely Undulation immediately. Just in case. After all. The DM rolled another 20 in that encounter. After we'd disarmed the enemy. Hariman The reason my sorc isn't getting the vest is that I think having the bonus on saves from her vest of resistance is going to save her life more often than the vest of timely undulation. The real cost isn't the 1125gp, it's the item slot, at least at mid-high levels. Btw, I've played one Keoland mod: it didn't seem too scary. Mind you, it was only APL 4. I've only played the Perrenland mods up to March of the Hollows, but to that point, at least, they didn't seem noticeably more dangerous than Cores (imo). I recently found horizon goggles and an orange ioun stone with my sorcerer, which made me very happy. I'm still hoping to see runestaffs, a ring of arcane might, and full metamagic rods (ideally, of energy substitution).
Mattastrophic 07-29-07, 11:12 PM	The Vest is probably good for low levels. Just buy it, let it save you once, then throw it away and work on a Vest of Resistance. If crits are that bad, just use things like Mirror Image, Entropic Shield, Blink, and Displacement to force a miss chance, or save for Moderate or Heavy Fortification. -Matt
solbergb 07-30-07, 03:21 PM	Neither of my two character deaths in LG were due to crits, so an item like that isn't high on my priority list. If it was, I'd be more inclined to get fortification on something. I'm not keen on consumables that cost more than my share of a raise dead.
Drezden 07-30-07, 04:30 PM	I think most deaths I have seen as a player and DM involved crits - normally a high damage monster with Power Attack too. Saw another one at an out of region con over this past weekend - Monster materializes and hits PC with an axe crit for 60 damage at APL4. No way to offset that (at least at APL4). I think Fortification - especially moderate - is very good for front liners who are subject to numerous attacks. Especially since I see more and more mods building NPCs with high crit multipliers or ranges. Daren
solbergb 07-30-07, 09:53 PM	welll....the way to offset it is the whole "monster materializes". That's his surprise round. Assuming he had a way of materializing (like manifesting as a ghost or being teleported in). Granted if it happens and he beats init on the party, the 60 point crit at APL4 might happen. I just find that to be a highly unusual condition, multiplied by the chance of actually critting with a x3 or x4 weapon. Somebody in the party usually spots that guy or beats him in init and does something to reduce the chance of that big crit. Not always. But usually. And the rest of the time, is a small enough fraction that the 1/20+roll to confirm just hasn't come up much. Crits have contributed to deaths when I've GM'd but there was always a key decision made by the player which exposed them to the crits in the first place. Sometimes it's a calculated risk (one death required a crit AND on a follow up round rolling near max damage on grapple/constrict doing even more damage than the crit did). Sometimes it's just a brain freeze (taking an AOO to cast a spell safely to finish off the wounded guy, when you are carrying a wand that is just as capable of finishing off the wounded guy) My player deaths have all been directly tied to character decisions, not random die rolls. OTOH, both of my high level characters have had some reroll stuff in their builds, and moreso now with the reprint of Not this time cards. My next generation after them don't have that, although one is super-alert and the other is an AC monster. I wonder if the AC monster is more likely to die from a crit than my other characters? It seems likely. He puts himself in harms way a lot more. Maybe he'll work some fortification in someday.
Hariman 07-30-07, 10:19 PM	The Vest is probably good for low levels. Just buy it, let it save you once, then throw it away and work on a Vest of Resistance. If crits are that bad, just use things like Mirror Image, Entropic Shield, Blink, and Displacement to force a miss chance, or save for Moderate or Heavy Fortification. -Matt The vest of resistance is a thought. And I do have access to Undulant Innards. Ironically, I think the spell access is from the same module that gave me the vest access.
Timlagor 07-30-07, 11:55 PM	Combat doesn't start until you can see the enemy. Materialising is what triggers the surprise round: it doesn't use it up. CF: opening a door where one team knows what's on the other side: you get a surprise round after the door is opened.
Drezden 07-31-07, 12:03 AM	It was one of those materializing statutes. The DM had him materialize, based on something we did and then just attack. We were NOT interacting with him - it was a small room and there were multiple statutes - no way to know which one (if any) was going to materialize. Oh and the thing wasn't trapped - we had some uber search Rogue who got ungodly (35-40) search checks. Really just no way to avoid it - poor guy was just closest PC. I agree that many times poor decisions underly the crits that cause the deaths, however, the point is that the crits are what eliminates the margin for error. That is, the poor decision would have worked out just fine - PC might take some damage, but would be ok - until the crit comes and kills the PC. They also are one of the few ways that well designed and played PCs can die at high levels. That's why fort is good, because it helps to eliminate the really bad luck of getting critted. My favorite story about re-roll abilities and crits occurred when I was DMing an APL8 table. A 15th level arcane caster was playing down because he wanted to finish the plot arc and it was the only table (this was back when this was legal). He decided he wasn't going to play an "active" role. The party comes to a deadly encouter against a uber damager with great defenses and a x4 crit weapon. Arcane caster laughs off the crit possibility, since he is a Fatespinner. He dares me to roll a 20 - of course he wasn't the one being attacked - since he will just make me re-reroll. I full attack Frontliner - 2 attack rolls - 2 20s come out into the middle of the table. :) 2nd threat is confirmed (after he makes me re-reroll 1st) and frontliner takes 120 hps of damage and is blown to pieces. Daren welll....the way to offset it is the whole "monster materializes". That's his surprise round. Assuming he had a way of materializing (like manifesting as a ghost or being teleported in). Granted if it happens and he beats init on the party, the 60 point crit at APL4 might happen. [snip] My player deaths have all been directly tied to character decisions, not random die rolls. OTOH, both of my high level characters have had some reroll stuff in their builds, and moreso now with the reprint of Not this time cards. My next generation after them don't have that, although one is super-alert and the other is an AC monster. I wonder if the AC monster is more likely to die from a crit than my other characters? It seems likely. He puts himself in harms way a lot more. Maybe he'll work some fortification in someday.
solbergb 07-31-07, 12:21 PM	Combat doesn't start until you can see the enemy. Materialising is what triggers the surprise round: it doesn't use it up. CF: opening a door where one team knows what's on the other side: you get a surprise round after the door is opened. Combat starts when you're in contact with the enemy. A ghost manifesting or a bandit stepping around a tree - they're aware of you and you aren't aware of them, they get a std+5' step+swift+free actions to take advantage of that. The bandit doesn't get to step out around the tree, trigger the surprise round, and then also get to charge. If they're just randomly appearing, then there isn't a surprise round. Eg, a summoned monster from a trap, or an enemy that just happens to teleport in while you're in the room. It depends on the circumstances. Init isn't rolled in the "door" case till it is open, you aren't in contact. In the case of an etherial enemy, it can detect the party and be detected, it's in contact just as much as an invisible enemy is.
Timlagor 07-31-07, 03:40 PM	It depends on the circumstances. Init isn't rolled in the "door" case till it is open, you aren't in contact. In the case of an etherial enemy, it can detect the party and be detected, it's in contact just as much as an invisible enemy is. Which is to say "not enough to trigger initiative".
control freak 07-31-07, 03:44 PM	open access to PoP 1 to PoP 8
Hariman 08-07-07, 09:55 PM	I think this has been said before, but it bears repeating. Favors that let you restore expired access from older ARs. There are way too many items that I see slip through a character's fingers because my character didn't have the money for it to not want to see access restoration favors. Heck, there are items I've had to sell or use due to bad luck and necessity. I know they're out there, I've seen them before. And the Greyhawk City Ruins Affiliations provide access restoration. I'd just like to see it in more than just a single mod or hard to join affiliations. I can name two items I'd want back offhand. I could probably find many more.
Eric Anondson 08-07-07, 10:22 PM	I want a greathammer. Not a goliath greathammer. The greathammer in MMIV. Why? d12 bludgeoning damage, 19-20/x4. Worth an exotic weapon feat, easily.
Hariman 08-07-07, 10:27 PM	open access to PoP 1 to PoP 8 If wizards and clerics get Pearl access like that, then spontaneous casters would have to get open Memento access 1 to 7.
Wraith235 08-07-07, 11:12 PM	Twilight Armor ability .... simply because for Wizards .... its easier to pay for +1 Twilight Mithril chain shirt Armor than +5 Bracers of Armor