Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 03-10-07, 02:44 PM	I guess I just decided to start this thread to gather a list a things that other people expect a wizard to be able to do. What feats should he have, what spells should he be able to cast. I mean it's been said time and time again every table needs an arcanist, but what do you want him to do? I mean Save or Die spells and spell damage are a given, but what about buffs? To make a long story sort, what metamagic feats and what spells do you most, if not all, generalist wizards to have?
Timlagor 03-10-07, 03:41 PM	A Wizard is a wonderfully versatile thing. I would never assume that a Wizard could do damage. I would assume that they had spells in their spellbook that would do damage if they knew that they were going to need them. If you want a buff from a wizard then you should be willing to provide a Scroll/Wand. Even then you should not expect the Wizard to be willing to spend a combat action on it. [too many "expects" in this post; I'll just list things I'd expect and specify if it's only a hope] Feats There are many good Feats and I would not assume very much about what a Wizard would have. I would expect them to have some Metamagic. I would expect them to have Empower if they like dealing damage. EDIT: CWI is the one Feat I would expect them all to have. Equipment I'd expect them to wish they had Metamagic Rods I'd currently expect them to have Pearls of Power but with the CL+2 Access gone that may become rarer. Healing: - Potion of CLW (for emergency stabilisation) - Scrolls/Wand of CLW/LV - Potion of Cure Serious preferred for real emergencies (biggest Open potion) Headband of Intellect Amulet of Health Vest of Resistance (or Cloak but usually Vest) BBBook Light Crossbow (from early levels -yes even if you bought a wand of MM and/or lots of scrolls for those levels and never actually used it) Handy Haversack Familiar (Rat/Hawk/Bat usually but not necessarily) Efficient Quiver (of Boccob!) if they have Rods. Mithral Buckler and Thistledown Padded Armour if they ever got access. Mine has Boots of Big Stepping (DDoor) and Cloak of Elemental Protection but not everyone is that lucky. Scrolls A selection of utility scrolls including some or all of those below and preferably more. Obscuring Mist (if not banned) Ideally some sort of damage See Invisibility + Glitterdust/invis Purge Haste (prepare it too but it's well worth having an emergency Haste) Magic Weapon (at low levels) Enlarge Person (but see above about people supplying their own) Spells in Book -obviously you can do perfectly well without some of these but I'd expect a Wizard to collect as many spells as possible once they get a BBB (which is something of a priority). Some Damage (but not necessarily prepared by default) - MM - Lesser Orb (usually Acid) - Fireball - Orb Grease (Colour Spray) Mage Armour Endure Elements Resist Energy Glitterdust Haste Slow Dispel Magic Dimension Door Black Tentacles (Improved) Invisibility (Sphere) [all three: you're not a Sorceror] Mass Fly [and prepare it every day possibly unless you're with a Sorc] Wall of Force Disintergrate (for Walls of Force) Teleport (from my head; I may well have missed key spells and gear -it shoudl be a good start anyway :))
Fronch 03-10-07, 05:50 PM	You mentioned Mass Fly, but Fly (at least on a scroll) is extremely important starting at APL 6. Not being able to fly can be a huge liability for some fights.
Eric Anondson 03-10-07, 06:05 PM	All wizards should have more than Con +0. Preferably Con +2. ;)
Sieylianna 03-10-07, 06:37 PM	All wizards should have more than Con +0. Preferably Con +2. ;) Elven wizards should have a +1 CON. Other races should be +2 or better. Ed
lunarfish 03-10-07, 07:27 PM	I'd be inclined to say that a wizard should be able to cope with whatever CON score he/she takes, and if he/she has less than a 14 CON score (this means you, grey elves) he/she should play accordingly and select appropriate spells. My own wizard took only a 12 CON (and he's human) to milk two more points out of his WIS score - it's two more spells from Arcane Disciple, and the fact that I now cast spells out of the healing domain (a *wizard* just cast Cure Critical Wounds!?) compensates for the loss of 1 hp/level. However, if there isn't a reason to put it in another stat, Wizards and Sorcerers have an effective 3 dump stats (Strength, the opposite arcane casting stat, and Wisdom), and therefore should have no less than six points into CON - and can probably afford to take a 16.
Zanzibax 03-10-07, 10:39 PM	I guess I just decided to start this thread to gather a list a things that other people expect a wizard to be able to do. What feats should he have, what spells should he be able to cast. I mean it's been said time and time again every table needs an arcanist, but what do you want him to do? I mean Save or Die spells and spell damage are a given, but what about buffs? To make a long story sort, what metamagic feats and what spells do you most, if not all, generalist wizards to have? Unseen Servant Every wizard *needs* Unseen Servant.
Hariman 03-10-07, 11:58 PM	Unseen Servant Every wizard *needs* Unseen Servant. I concur. Always have at least one scroll of Unseen Servant. I've seen Unseen Servant used to set off some NASTY traps on needed items. It also works if you have to pick up an "Item of deathly evil, which hurts nonevil characters" That reminds me, I need to get one.
Dempster 03-11-07, 01:27 AM	You don't need con if you don't get hit. Mirror image is very effective at lower levels at keeping you safe. I have had alot of DM's who won't even bother with me once I mirror up. At the higher levels greater invis keeps you out of alot of combat. Con is also not that critical if you make use of false life, or empowered false life.
Genghis Cohen 03-11-07, 03:00 AM	You don't need con if you don't get hit. Mirror image is very effective at lower levels at keeping you safe. I have had alot of DM's who won't even bother with me once I mirror up. At the higher levels greater invis keeps you out of alot of combat. Con is also not that critical if you make use of false life, or empowered false life.Round 1: Evil wizard with See Invisibility up casts Evards Round 2:Sudden Maximized Fireball Still Round 2: Player wishing his wizard had more con Round 3: Player leaving the table to get a drink and a snack because his wizard is dead I'm going to vote for con for a wizard is a good thing.
lunarfish 03-11-07, 03:20 AM	You don't need con if you don't get hit. Mirror image is very effective at lower levels at keeping you safe. I have had alot of DM's who won't even bother with me once I mirror up. At the higher levels greater invis keeps you out of alot of combat. Con is also not that critical if you make use of false life, or empowered false life. What a silly DM you have - Mirror Image is about one round of hackin' and then it's gone - especially when the critters have Cleave and Great Cleave - indeed, one hit on Great Cleave eliminates Mirror Image entirely. Round 1: Evil wizard with See Invisibility up casts Evards Round 2:Sudden Maximized Fireball Still Round 2: Player wishing his wizard had more con Round 3: Player leaving the table to get a drink and a snack because his wizard is dead I'm going to vote for con for a wizard is a good thing. What is said NPC wizard's initiative modifier? If he's trying to Evard's me, I'm probably trying to Evard's him, and I have Nerveskitter, giving me a +5 initiative modifier (hopefully topping his). And more importantly, how do we know that while he's casting Evard's on the party arcanist, he hasn't completely missed the BDF and isn't in dire straights. A wizard can get away with low CON if he compensates appropriately for it - elves do it all the time. Now, as for what every Wiz should have - EVERY wizard should find out just how much their spellbooks weigh - my own wizard was in heavy load under the weight of his spellbooks!!! So he bought himself a Heward's - but it's funny to think I went three whole modules without realizing just how much that second and third book weighed.
GreatSiron 03-12-07, 12:39 AM	What is said NPC wizard's initiative modifier? If he's trying to Evard's me, I'm probably trying to Evard's him Not if you're 6 in an APL 6 mod, and he's higher lvl than you. (And a vampire to boot.) :P
Timlagor 03-12-07, 02:04 AM	Not if you're 6 in an APL 6 mod, and he's higher lvl than you. (And a vampire to boot.) :P Vampire Wizard 7 at APL6... at least he was outnumbered 6:1 :D
LGMoses 03-12-07, 03:00 AM	a wizard should just not get hit a spellbook :D
Mattastrophic 03-12-07, 10:43 AM	My own guy has 10 Con, and he's doing just fine at APL 14 with 47 + False Life hit points. Though he's fragile, he's actually pretty tough to kill because of the large opportunity costs in coming after him. Contingency(Empowered Mirror Image) means he can suck up multiple full-attacks, and Prescient Sense + Dex means he doesn't take collateral damage from area-of-effect spells. Concentrating up a DimDoor or casting Quickened Benign Transposition keeps him out of sticky situations like grapples. But regardless, 10 Con can work; you just have to take your survival seriously and not fly by the seat of your pants like I enjoy. -Matt
Rerednaw 03-12-07, 11:52 AM	Round 1: Evil wizard with See Invisibility up casts Evards Round 2:Sudden Maximized Fireball Still Round 2: Player wishing his wizard had more con Round 3: Player leaving the table to get a drink and a snack because his wizard is dead I'm going to vote for con for a wizard is a good thing. In all fairness, in a typical LG mod if the BBEG guns for the wizard, the wizard is toast. At low levels, he doesn't have the defensive capacity. At higher levels, the BBEG probably either is or has a caster to knock those defenses down long enough to have the mage wide open. Or the BBEG simply uses a SU/EX. At APL 6 I was invisible, flying, with Mage Armor, Shield, Resist Energy and I forget what else and I still got slammed on the first round the BBEG joined in. The DM rolled low enuff though that I had a round to recover. If he had rolled high I would have been one-shotted. Thinking back, I should have dropped. If I had been running I probably would have followed up with a second round of attacks. Back to OT. My level 6 wizard doesn't even come close to the list above. He simply doesn't have the wealth. My wizard has the following: Lesser Extend 1/day (mod special item) Wand of MM. Potion of CLW. Potion of CMW Scroll of Lesser Resto. 3,000 gp worth of scrolls. H^3 Spellbook (4,200 gp worth of scribing). No big AoE (fireball, lightning bolt, etc.) 4,000 gp cash (he just gained 3,600 from a special). Feats: SpF (Conj), Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, Sculpt Spell, Metamagic School Focus. Short term goals (by next level): ============= Enuff gold for a rez (5k). Cash reserve to scribe NONC Adv access spells (2k) Lesser Resto Potion. CSW Potion. CLW wand. Medium term goals (1-3 levels): ============== Enuff gold for a bbook (12k) and CWI or Imbued Summoning feat. Long term goals (4+ levels): ============= +4 Int Headband, +4 Con Amulet, POPs (when he gets access), Resist Vest, some kind of ac/defense (displacement, ac, etc.). My expectations of other people playing wizards has to do more with tactics than spell selection. Staying at range, not mixing it up, using his knowledge skill to identify strengths/weakness of a foe. For spells at low levels I expect to see a Grease, Sleep, or Color Spray instead of Magic Missile. There are exceptions of course (noncorporeal undead for example.)
GreatSiron 03-12-07, 12:01 PM	I'd have to agree with you on not having all that stuff. The BBEG, on the other hand, would have had a LOT harder time hitting you if you had blink and mirror image up. (Unless he has true seeing, in which case you are still dead.)
Drezden 03-12-07, 12:15 PM	This is defintely not true at high levels. With contingency, various defensive buffs and mobility, most high level wizards are very hard to kill. BTW - I am a big fan of a high con on an arcane caster. My wizard bought a 16 Con., now at 15th level he has 138 hps base and with Empowered False Life and Hero's Feast he usually has 160-170 hps. I haven't been seriously threatened in 40+ mods. As far as what all wizards should have, here are some of my thoughts (obviosuly, some of these are level dependent): 1. Offensive Spellpower, especially crowd control - including Non SR spells. 2. Dim Door 3. Fly and then Mass Fly 4. Wall of Force 5. Greater Dispel and/or Antimagic Field 6. Glitterdust/See Invis. and ultimately True Seeing 7. GMW (at 12th + level) Those are just the ones that jump to mind and is not meant to be exhaustive. Thanks, Daren [/SIZE] In all fairness, in a typical LG mod if the BBEG guns for the wizard, the wizard is toast. At low levels, he doesn't have the defensive capacity. At higher levels, the BBEG probably either is or has a caster to knock those defenses down long enough to have the mage wide open. Or the BBEG simply uses a SU/EX.
Mattastrophic 03-12-07, 12:44 PM	BTW - I am a big fan of a high con on an arcane caster. My wizard bought a 16 Con., now at 15th level he has 138 hps base and with Empowered False Life and Hero's Feast he usually has 160-170 hps. I haven't been seriously threatened in 40+ mods. Myself, from the opposing school, I can't stand cakewalks, so I elect to go with 47 hps base at 13th. It's playstyle. And most of the time I still don't get seriously threatened, because 9 times out of 10, even with 19 AC, I still don't take any damage. -Matt
solbergb 03-12-07, 01:22 PM	With me, I tend to ignore armor class. It's a failing on many characters of mine, to the point where someone asked me "What's the highest AC any of your characters have anyway,?" (upon learning that my druid's armor class when raging was...um...8) (the answer is 26, or 34 when in "cork" mode for a L6 character, and another who is low 20s or sometimes mid 20s at L4 - I can do it, I just usually don't). Defense is a package. Playing superhero games for decades taught me this long before D&D 3.x came around. Defense is all of these: Passive defenses (most important when surprised/have not acted yet). These include spells that are running before fighting begins. Armor class (melee/archery only) saving throws (spells only) hitpoints (both, but ablative) Resistances (sometimes ablative, sometimes not - usually energy spells). Evasion is in this category Immunities (including spell resistance, but poison and fear come up most often) Misdirection (you look like a target that is hard to kill and/or ineffectual, so they ignore you until you act) Positioning within the party based on most likely threats. Active defenses (most dependent on players tactical skill) Mobility (if they can't reach/target you, they can't hit you) battlefield control spells (see "mobilty", only aimed at the other guy) Most miss-chance spells (short duration = cast in combat or just prior) Debuffs (make it harder for enemy to get through your passive defenses or hinder his mobility directly, such as Slow, rather than indirectly. Things like confusion that waste actions are also in this category) Diplomacy/charm (he doesn't WANT to hit you and finds another target) Active misdirection (bluff, or weird spells like project image or translocation trick, illusions,stuff like silent/still spell that make it not obvious that you are the source of an effect) that for whatever reason mean you aren't the target. Healing (including "Bad effect removal" if it can be done in combat) All of my characters have defenses, most have significant active and passive defenses. But armor class is only one small part of the package. Those that have it need fewer things in other categories, those that don't need more.
Rerednaw 03-12-07, 04:04 PM	I'd have to agree with you on not having all that stuff. The BBEG, on the other hand, would have had a LOT harder time hitting you if you had blink and mirror image up. (Unless he has true seeing, in which case you are still dead.) No trueseeing that I know of. Just flight (faster than me), blindsight (there you are!) and a breath weapon (who needs to hit rolls?). Blink costs 1050 gp (750 gp for a scroll, 300 gp to scribe). I had 400 gp. And it takes a very valuable level 3 slot. And it grants me 20% ASF something I don't want in a boss fight. I consider invis > mirror image because of duration and the flat 50% miss chance. I try to limit how many of my spell slots have defensive buffs. That being said, I'll probably pick it up next AR. It's too useful for when I get grappled. It puts me behind on a pearl of power, blessed book or any kind of defensive item or headband of int but I suppose it's cheaper than a rez. I just have to decide what I give up: fly, haste or my summon monster spell. Probably dumping haste.
Lomiat 03-12-07, 04:23 PM	"All wizards should have dupes.... er... teammates to stand between them and the bad guys." *grins* "Yes. Go, team, go!"
LachlarlanIII 03-12-07, 06:13 PM	I believe all wizards should have coasts on which to lounge about. :D
Samwise 03-12-07, 06:22 PM	1. Meat shield. 2. Cure bearer. :D
Munkwunk 03-13-07, 02:52 AM	My wife's 10-Con Grey Elf Wizardy-type has gotten by just fine through level 10 with no deaths (and only a few really close calls). Of course, part of this is aided by the fact that she has a cleric compaion who runs Shield Other, but hey... I'm a sucker. Did I mention she's a Diviner who gave up Illusion? She doesn't have some of the greatest defensive buffs -- Invisibility and Mirror Image -- and rarely bothers castinf defensive buffs beyond Greater Mage Armor. I'm starting to wonder how she does it, myself. The thing is, she doesn't get hit a lot. Battlefield control is the key. I don't think she's ever cast Fireball, but there are few times when we've really wished she had it. Most of the time BC spells are more than capable of doing the trick; Evards, Solid Fog, Confusion, Grease, Resilient Sphere, etc. go a long, long way. Also, it's amazing how well a few key divination spells can change the outcome of an encounter. By making good use of an Arcane Sight/Arcane Eye combo, she can scout the dungeon (with trapfinding from a well-placed Scout level and a Seach bonus taht trumps most equal-APL rogues) and figure out just what we're going to need to take on the dungeon's hazards. It is a very unconventional wizard build, used in very unconventional ways, and it works. I guess what I'm really trying to say is this: no one wizard should ever play exactly like another, nor should s/he feel obligated to do so. She gets a lot of flak from people for not always using conventional tactics, for having given up a level of casting to be able to trapfind (but hey, it goes GREAT with her Geometer levels), and for rarely packing offensive damage spells, but by the time a module is over most nay-sayers have shut their mouths. Sure, there may be certain "optimized" ways to do things, but what's the fun of playing a cookie-cutter build?
copper_wyrmling 03-13-07, 03:09 AM	BTW - I am a big fan of a high con on an arcane caster. My wizard bought a 16 Con., now at 15th level he has 138 hps base and with Empowered False Life and Hero's Feast he usually has 160-170 hps. I haven't been seriously threatened in 40+ mods. Do you think you would've been seriously threatened if you had 30 less HP, i.e. 130-140 HP instead of 160-170? My sorc had starting Con 12 (and walks around with AC 13 at APL 12-14) and also hasn't been seriously threatened in a very long time ;)
Timlagor 03-13-07, 07:20 AM	The thing is, she doesn't get hit a lot. Battlefield control is the key. I don't think she's ever cast Fireball, but there are few times when we've really wished she had it. Most of the time BC spells are more than capable of doing the trick; Evards, Solid Fog, Confusion, Grease, Resilient Sphere, etc. go a long, long way. ..of flak from people for not always using conventional tactics, for having Looks pretty conventional to me (though I haven't really made proper use of Divinations yet). Wizards who load lots of direct damage are the ones who get flak around here (well they would get funny looks from some of my characters anyway ;) ...it's the Sorceror with Shield at first level that really gave me pause)
Lomiat 03-13-07, 07:24 AM	Do you think you would've been seriously threatened if you had 30 less HP, i.e. 130-140 HP instead of 160-170? My sorc had starting Con 12 (and walks around with AC 13 at APL 12-14) and also hasn't been seriously threatened in a very long time ;) My gray elf has 12 CON, and while I intend to magically upgrade his CON sooner or later, the lure of better access calls... The primary issue is that while it's good theory to buy a better CON bonus, he typically ends adventures well **above** his base HPs, and if that trend were to continue, it would simply be poor economics to bother with CON enhancements... Except for the Belt of Dwarvenkind which will boost his saves and give him darkvision...
Sieylianna 03-13-07, 07:47 AM	Looks pretty conventional to me (though I haven't really made proper use of Divinations yet). Wizards who load lots of direct damage are the ones who get flak around here (well they would get funny looks from some of my characters anyway ;) ...it's the Sorceror with Shield at first level that really gave me pause) I'd agree. DIviners don't give up much for the specialization. IME, there are as many diviners as the rest of the specialists combined. Ed
solbergb 03-13-07, 10:11 AM	She gets a lot of flak from people for not always using conventional tactics, ... but by the time a module is over most nay-sayers have shut their mouths. Sure, there may be certain "optimized" ways to do things, but what's the fun of playing a cookie-cutter build? Agreed. For me the fun is taking something bizzare and using my optomization chops to make them strong contributors. From a core special last year. "Your AC is 14? At APL14? You're a L12 Monk! That's insane!" at the end of the mod "Ok, now I get how you do it. Pretty cool." I think in that module I'd been hit maybe twice by a physical attack...and was a strong contributor.
JamesMaissen 03-13-07, 11:02 AM	What should all wizards have? 1. Knowledge skills. They help identify creatures being faced in combat, and advance the plot out of combat. Wizards accomplish this easier than any other class and should be able to muster a moderate roll for all of them. 2. Team tactics. a. An understanding that selfbuffing for multiple rounds while fighters are bleeding is not contributing. Rather an understanding of mutual defense. b. Some grasp of tactics and ability to direct the tempo of the combat. c. Coordination with the party for what spells they need to be brought to the table and willingness/ability to bring most of them. 3. Depth of resources. This is mainly consumables of various low level spells to augment and smooth over rough spots. Pearls to recall staples is also acceptable. This can be augmented by other party members, but a base should exist here. Done well a wizard is a handyman that makes the table run smoothly. In LG this is doubly so as table composition is so random at times and the wizard by means of his spellbook is the most easily adaptable character in the main. -James
Drezden 03-13-07, 11:12 AM	At the highest levels, likely not. Although playing in a lot of Core Specials and Sheldomar interactives, does make it a possibility. I played in an interactive last year at APL12 (with a different character) where the party took 3 horrid wiltings in the surprise round and 2 unholy blights before all but 1 person in the party had gone. The party made all 30 saves and every one of us took over 110 damage. Most at APL arcane casters would have been dead at that point. The one we had who also stressed Con was at -9. However, at lower levels my high con saved me numerous times. I got charged and critted by an invisible Giant; targetted by 3 archer monsters; surrounded by Worgs and charged by a Howler when my low level parties were decimated. In each of those situations, but for the high con, I would have died. Now, again, I think I play in a tough region with some very tactical DMs, so maybe other places in wouldn't have mattered much. Daren Do you think you would've been seriously threatened if you had 30 less HP, i.e. 130-140 HP instead of 160-170? My sorc had starting Con 12 (and walks around with AC 13 at APL 12-14) and also hasn't been seriously threatened in a very long time ;)
Japangirl 03-13-07, 01:02 PM	Do you think you would've been seriously threatened if you had 30 less HP, i.e. 130-140 HP instead of 160-170? My sorc had starting Con 12 (and walks around with AC 13 at APL 12-14) and also hasn't been seriously threatened in a very long time ;) Yes, yes it does matter. For small-hit dice character, the difference isn't 130-140 to 160-170, but rather 70-80 to 100-110. That difference is huge, as there are lots of things that easily to over 80 damage. I got hit on my rogue for 118 damage, ranged touch attack, no save. Dropped me to about -15 or so, and I know many 13th level caster have less than the 105ish hitpoints my 13th rogue had. I have also taken over 90 points of damage from a full round attack, been critted for well over 70, and various and sundry effects like that. Things start getting really deadly at APL 10 or 12, when Disintegrates start flying around like candy and metamagicked damage spells become common. I will repeat that Con is not merely hitpoints. It is also fort saves, a wizard's bane. Fort save or die effects become increasingly common at high levels: I've seen Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Phantasmal Killer-like gaze attacks, poisons, massive damage, and random other things, often with save DCs in the low to mid 20s. Con-draining things show up as well: ghosts, dread wraiths, wounding weapons, bestow curse and greater bestow curse, etc. A friend who plays a 10 Con Mystic Theurge recently only didn't die from several ghosts' Horrific Appearance effect (d4 to all physical stats if you fail a Fort save) because he had an Amulet of Con +4. He dropped to 3 Con because his Fort saves were bad, and then the low Con almost killed him. This was before they actually did anything, mind you. They just showed up and looked really scary.
Randall Montgomery 03-13-07, 01:49 PM	I will repeat that Con is not merely hitpoints. It is also fort saves, a wizard's bane. Fort save or die effects become increasingly common at high levels: I've seen Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Phantasmal Killer-like gaze attacks, poisons, massive damage, and random other things, often with save DCs in the low to mid 20s. Con-draining things show up as well: ghosts, dread wraiths, wounding weapons, bestow curse and greater bestow curse, etc. A friend who plays a 10 Con Mystic Theurge recently only didn't die from several ghosts' Horrific Appearance effect (d4 to all physical stats if you fail a Fort save) because he had an Amulet of Con +4. He dropped to 3 Con because his Fort saves were bad, and then the low Con almost killed him. This was before they actually did anything, mind you. They just showed up and looked really scary. This is the absolute truth. My wizard was once targeted with 2 disintigrates in as many rounds. Thanks to a 14 Con I was able to make the save on the first, although if the second hadn't missed I probably still would've been perma-killed. This character represented a lot of firsts for me. He was my first LG character, the first Wizard I've ever played, and was my first character played with a serious gaming group, and as such I've learned a great many things while playing him. 1. Grease ROCKS! I've had a handful of battles where SR might have shut me down if I hadn't had this spell. For a first level spell, it's probably one of the most useful in my spell list. 2. Dimension Door is an absolute necessity. At first I didn't understand why everyone made such a big deal about it, since it's a 4th level spell with limited teleporting capabilities. Then it was explained to me that it's a verbal component-only spell, and I was hooked. I've never been worried about Evard's again. 3. Saving throws are more important to me than any other defensive measure. Because my hitpoints are no great shake, even with a 14 Con, I avoid fighting at all costs. As a result, I'm usually the one who gets targeted by enemy spellcasters. Having a cloak or vest of resistance, and stat bump gear for those attributes that affect saves, is a big help. I'll be crafting a Amulet of Health +4 soon, and while the HP are nice, the bonus to Fortitude and the added points to my Concentration skill (don't have to cast defensively much, but when I do it's life or death) are even more important. 4. The more spells you have, the better. My character initially copied a number of 1st and 2nd level spells from scrolls, but soon found the cost was getting to be extremely problimatic. Since then, I've gotten by on the standard 2/level spells known, waiting for the day I would be able to craft a Boccob's Blessed Book. Of course, he finally reached a high enough CL, had access, and had enough TUs to make one, it became open and CL is no longer a requirement. At least I have one now.... Anyway, here's the rundown on my character Devlin. To date he's only died once, which was due to a tactically unsound decision on my part, so while he's not uber min-maxed, he's done pretty well for himself. Human Wizard 7/Fatespinner 4 (soon to be Holy Scourge of Heroneious) Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 21 Wis 10 Cha 8 Feats: Eschew Materials (mostly for RP, but has occassionally come in useful) Improved Initiative Spell Focus (Evocation) Craft Wand Craft Wonderous Items Spell Focus (Transmutation) Notable equipment: Headband of Intellect +4 Ring of Wizardry II Rod of Lesser Empower Boccob's Blessed Book Cloak of Resistance +2 Looking to buy/craft soon: Gloves of Dex +4 Amulet of Health +4 Ring of Evasion Cloak of Resistance +5
Cardinal Teplin 03-13-07, 06:09 PM	Knew a wizard with a con of 8 (or was it 6?). He did ok, and lived through to retirement. High is very useful, but almost nothing is essential. I suspect the title of the thread is really asking the wrong question. What I want from a wizard at my table is that he be useful. I have many ideas of how a wizards can be useful, but I'd rather they were ones the player was conversant with. At high level in particular, I expect party members to be able to adapt to the party's weaknesses and strengths. What the wizard should have would very much depend on what the rest of the party didn't.
SgtHulka 03-13-07, 09:48 PM	I like what JamesMaissen said. And I wanna play Champions with Solbergb. Anyway, the only thing I'm surprised not to see on anyone's list is Divinations. Clairvoyance is an absolute must-have by fifth level. If I'd known better, my Wizard would have had Detect Thoughts until I could use Clairvoyance. I'm not high enough level yet to know the effectiveness of Wizard Eye or Scrying, but I can imagine they're both must-haves too. Rope Trick is a must have. But if I'm not a wizard, and I'm running with one in my party, I'd expect: -Haste -Glitterdust -Grease -Resist Energy (not necessarily memorized though) -Fly (not necessarily memorized) -Dimension Door -Rope Trick -Clairvoyance I want my party wizard to mess up my opponent's tactics, by blinding him, teleporting me to a flank, detecting the ambush, making him prone, making me fly, making everyone in my party attack twice or move at the speed of light, making them entangled, causing concealment, slowing them down, de-buffing them, etc. In other words, I just want my wizard to be a force multiplier. I don't really care so much if he does direct ranged damage. Archers can do that in spades. And I don't want my wizard standing around. Or cowering in a corner. If you're out of spells, get your butt up to the front line and provide flanking! Or at least fire a crossbow...you could always roll a 20. I'm talking levels 1-8, though. No experience in the high level game here. If I'm fighting evil badguys, I always try to take down the Wizard first. I fully expect evil badguys to do the same to my party, so it's also incumbant upon the party to try and protect the wizard, imho.
LGMoses 03-15-07, 01:06 AM	I believe all wizards should have coasts on which to lounge about. :D That sounds like the new company I'm starting called Mages of the Shoreline.
Eric Anondson 03-15-07, 01:58 AM	And I don't want my wizard standing around. Or cowering in a corner. If you're out of spells, get your butt up to the front line and provide flanking! Or at least fire a crossbow...you could always roll a 20. I'm talking levels 1-8, though. No experience in the high level game here. If I'm fighting evil badguys, I always try to take down the Wizard first. I fully expect evil badguys to do the same to my party, so it's also incumbant upon the party to try and protect the wizard, imho.:uh-huh: Protect the wizard like making the wizard step to the front line?
wooti 03-15-07, 09:29 AM	If I'm fighting evil badguys, I always try to take down the Wizard first. I used to think the same way but in the last couple of level there have been a couple of mages that I have taken every spell they could throw at me and then defeated them. I'm wondering if I really should be scared of most mages groups of bad guys battles. Particularly at low levels the wizards you meet only have 3 or 4 rounds of battle in them. Just for reference I play a 11th level Gish with lots of hps and fairly good saves. False life and blink deal with most damage dealling spells, and good will (and stupidly good fort) saves (and hopefully a friendly cleric with resurgence) deals with the rest.
solbergb 03-15-07, 02:25 PM	My monk goes after mages not because he's especially worried about them, but because of what they can do to the party squishies or worse, what they can do to disrupt party coordination. You don't know that the mage is going to be an idiot and do nothing but behave like an archer. What if he isolates most of the party on one side of a wall of force, and then has his minions rip the remaining person apart? Even in the baby levels things like glitterdust or web can really disrupt the ability of a party to rescue someone in trouble. You'll win, sure, but the odds of a death go up a lot. If all the mage does is magic missile, then you've just got an archer-like thing, and he might be worth attacking because he's easy to drop, but not for his real threat level.
Timlagor 03-15-07, 02:29 PM	Targetting Wizards first is definitely a good plan. Targetting Clerics is also a good plan. Targetting the big monster with 8 bazillion attacks for gobtilion damage each is something best left for the mage ;)
solbergb 03-15-07, 02:37 PM	Targeting is a subtle thing. It's based on whether the opposition is a threat AND whether targeting them has a realistic chance of removing them from the battle (or hurting them enough that someone else can finish the job much faster than if you did not target them). The gargantuan advanced assassin vine may be the big threat, or may be no threat at all, depending on how far away it is from the party. What is sure though, is something with that many hit dice won't be removed in one action, so focusing on it is only appropriate with other threats present if there are other overriding considerations (like it is strangling the life out of you) Anything with big attacks and weak hitpoints/saves is an obvious thing to target. Arcanists usually fit this bill. Divine casters, by contrast, often prove stubborn to kill, so they are usually targeted only after the arcanists have been wiped from the board. Exceptions may be made for arcane who are improved blinking with mirror image and have laughed off attacks that have been attempted even when the miss chance stuff doesn't work. Buffs matter more than class type sometimes.
GreatSiron 03-15-07, 03:41 PM	Exceptions may be made for arcane who are improved blinking with mirror image and have laughed off attacks that have been attempted even when the miss chance stuff doesn't work. Buffs matter more than class type sometimes. And that's when your wizard casts dispel magic. :D
Japangirl 03-15-07, 04:31 PM	And that's when your wizard casts dispel magic. :D And then realizes that it's all gear . . . Cloak of Major Displacement, Ring of Blinking, etc. What, I can hope, can't I?
cycloptic_squirrel 03-15-07, 06:48 PM	And then realizes that it's all gear . . . Cloak of Major Displacement, Ring of Blinking, etc. Just as the enemy mage realizes all his buddies are down for the count, the fight is lost, and he teleports away. With all his gear. Keep hoping... stupid DM running stupid NPCs as if they sole purpose in the campaign wasn't for me to hack them to pieces and take their stuff.
wooti 03-15-07, 08:40 PM	And then realizes that it's all gear . . . Cloak of Major Displacement, Ring of Blinking, etc. What, I can hope, can't I? Yes more bad guys with rings of blink! looty loot loot.
SgtHulka 03-16-07, 12:11 AM	:uh-huh: Protect the wizard like making the wizard step to the front line? You caught me. I try to draw wizards into my party by claiming I will protect them, when really I'm gonna shove them to the front lines to get killed. My friends and I have a secret signal...I pinch my nose and wharble and that means all our characters take a giant step backward behind the wizard. Once we have purged LG of all the wizards, we're gonna start eliminating the clerics, starting with worshippers of Boccob and Wee Jas.
Verenal 03-16-07, 01:58 PM	Scrolls every wizard should have (assuming they can use said scroll) - Knock - Command undead (Use on unintelligent undead) - Backbiter (Until enemies' weapons are frequently magical) - Grease (Unless you prefer to cast it from a slot) (deny your enemies' dex bonus to AC) - invisibility & fly (You will face the situation, where all your good spells are used, your party dead or fleeing, and a big nasty too close for comfort) - see invisibility & glitterdust (Unless you prefer to cast these from a slot) - protection form evil/magic circle agains evil (Use when encountering mind control) Also, this isn't something every wizard should have, but a scroll of fireball purchased after 1st AR is a gamble to turn a near TPK to an easy victory at low levels.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 02:02 PM	Every wizard should have Scribe Scroll...
GreatSiron 03-16-07, 03:15 PM	Every wizard should have Scribe Scroll... Every wizard should USE Scribe Scroll.:)
cetiken 03-17-07, 10:23 PM	To make a long story sort, what metamagic feats and what spells do you most, if not all, generalist wizards to have? I expect wizards to have some way of affecting combat positively. I also expect the wizards player to contribute to everyone having fun. Past that the ways to play a wizard any many, and as long as the player knows whats going on I'm happy to have an arcanist around.
Rerednaw 03-21-07, 01:56 PM	Yes more bad guys with rings of blink! looty loot loot. What you forgot to add was "that shows up on the AR as access." I am tired of fighting bad guys with tons of special access loot that spontaneously evaporate after you beat them.
GreatSiron 03-21-07, 03:20 PM	Thanks for all the responses, these tips should really help my wizard contribute more, but I have one more question: What do you use Rope Trick for?
solbergb 03-21-07, 03:21 PM	They use it to sleep safely. I've not used it like that since first edition, but I'd rather kill the night attackers and take their stuff :)
Japangirl 03-21-07, 03:22 PM	Thanks for all the responses, these tips should really help my wizard contribute more, but I have one more question: What do you use Rope Trick for? Sleeping at night! It's nice and safe and provides a place for an archer to stick his/her head out and shoot stuff while still getting massive cover bonuses to AC. It's also great for encountering a mob. Remember, mobs disperse in only a number of hours, so you shimmy up into the Rope Trick and wait out the mob.
clannagh 03-21-07, 06:01 PM	[/SIZE] What you forgot to add was "that shows up on the AR as access." I am tired of fighting bad guys with tons of special access loot that spontaneously evaporate after you beat them. Its even more annoying if it turns up but as adventure access and costs more than the total gold your PC can earn by that APL.
JamesMaissen 03-21-07, 07:43 PM	They use it to sleep safely. I've not used it like that since first edition, but I'd rather kill the night attackers and take their stuff :) That's what the illusions of the party sleeping down below are for... -James
Haro 03-21-07, 09:30 PM	Its even more annoying if it turns up but as adventure access and costs more than the total gold your PC can earn by that APL. While true, there are plenty of favours around that turn adventure access into regional or metaregional access. It's not all bad.
Japangirl 03-21-07, 10:24 PM	While true, there are plenty of favours around that turn adventure access into regional or metaregional access. It's not all bad. Where are "plenty"? I've seen one, I think, and it required picking something on that AR. You couldn't rifle through your ARs and pick an item off a previous AR or anything.
Timlagor 03-22-07, 09:47 AM	I've seen two that let you rifle through past ARs and heard that there are more out there. They seem to be a new fad :)
Gaelforcwynd 03-22-07, 10:16 AM	A Barbarian.
Rerednaw 03-22-07, 11:47 AM	Thanks for all the responses, these tips should really help my wizard contribute more, but I have one more question: What do you use Rope Trick for? Extended, a 5th level wizard has it for a 10 hour duration. That's long enough resting to regain most spells and such. Also, if the party is being pursued, create a distraction that cuts off line of sight (illusion, around a corner, through a door), cast the spell and have everyone scramble up. Unless the pursuing party has see invisible up, they cannot perceive the dimensional barrier once you pull the rope up.
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 09:12 AM	A Barbarian. A Magic Jarred Barbarian Troll:angelhide :smirk:
Madfox11 03-23-07, 10:40 AM	Extended, a 5th level wizard has it for a 10 hour duration. That's long enough resting to regain most spells and such. Also, if the party is being pursued, create a distraction that cuts off line of sight (illusion, around a corner, through a door), cast the spell and have everyone scramble up. Unless the pursuing party has see invisible up, they cannot perceive the dimensional barrier once you pull the rope up. Than you remember there are only 8 places available, and that the rope takes one up once pulled in. You than look at the two animal companions in the group as well as the two NPCs you jus rescued and you realize you might as well set up a normal camp ;)
Timlagor 03-25-07, 01:05 PM	Than you remember there are only 8 places available, and that the rope takes one up once pulled in. You than look at the two animal companions in the group as well as the two NPCs you jus rescued and you realize you might as well set up a normal camp ;) ..or reach for your Pearl of Power
Madfox11 03-26-07, 03:21 AM	True, although few people have a pearl for 2nd level spells ;) Although last week I saw an inventive use of the rope trick spell: to set up an ambush. They placed it above the road, which was the best way to hide those full plate wearing members of the group ;)