Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-07, 01:24 PM	This was set off by another thread, but I think it deserves its own discussion. What form of access (Regional, Meta, Core, Adventure, All) do you think should be the default for AR item access? Currently, the default is Adventure. While I see why this happens in some cases, I think that this contributes to problems in the system. Mod writers assume that players have had "access" to some rather expensive items, when even if they're seen, they might not have the cash at the time (if they are playing by the rules). The alternative is for players to hoard cash waiting and hoping for access to something, to meta-org shop, or to break the rules by AR-shopping and planning adventure play based around knowing what access is coming on the AR. This also causes a problem for players who gain access to consumables (something our local writers have gone overboard on recently); "Adventure" access to consumables like potions means that players either have to stock up or get the items and then hoard them. The final problem is that in the current magic item creation rules, having "seen" access to an item is all that is required to craft it. While I think this is a good thing, I've heard comment from non-crafting characters that crafting feats essentially become an item-access feat, and it's a valid point; Wizards and Clerics and so on usually can go back and craft the various "Adventure" access items they saw in their early days, but a fighter who didn't have the money for certain armor or weapons is SOL. I propose that this ought to be changed; default for Regionals should be Regional access, Metaregionals should be Meta, Cores should be Core, and Adventure access (or All access) should be reserved for special items. This would be fairer to those classes for whom magic item creation isn't an option. Thoughts?
LachlarlanIII 02-07-07, 02:23 PM	I don't like seeing 10000gp items as Adventure access at APL2. I'd prefer is Core adventures gave mostly Core access, and regional/metaregional adventures to give mostly Regional access. In a few cases make items Advenure access. Unique items that collectors would be after for example. A +2 Flaming Longsword shouldn't be Adventure access because once your PC knows it can be done, he may scour the Flanaess to find someone to make it for him. Hmmm... Perhaps instead of having Adventure access be adventure+3, it could be an additional TU or something finding another copy somewhere. Just a thought.
Howie23 02-07-07, 02:30 PM	This was set off by another thread, but I think it deserves its own discussion. What form of access (Regional, Meta, Core, Adventure, All) do you think should be the default for AR item access? Currently, the default is Adventure. While I see why this happens in some cases, I think that this contributes to problems in the system. Mod writers assume that players have had "access" to some rather expensive items, when even if they're seen, they might not have the cash at the time (if they are playing by the rules). If the access is logically tied to how the item is encountered, then it will vary. Adventure access is an abstraction of dividing the loot that is encountered along the way. Regional, Meta-regional, Core, Any are all tied to the idea that the access is not "found stuff." If your access is via a contact, you need to be in proximity to that contact to obtain it. The contact lives somewhere, or only has influence somewhere. I think we've all seen APL2 access to adventure access material that no one could ever gain the resources to purchase and still have played at APL2. This sort of access then only fuels crafting or retroactive favors ("you may reactivate an old access"). Frustrating, but I really don't have a problem with the idea that you can't afford everything you ever encounter. If you encounter the perfect item for your character concept and it exceeds your pocket book, you may be able to sell items to afford it, taking a hit in net worth to get there. If you choose not to in order to stay up with the "wealth-xp curve," you've made a decision about what is important to you. The system rewards PCs who grow and respond to their experiences. While character optimization plans generally don't follow this design, that is a choice that players make that is direct conflict with the limited access system. Have a plan, but be willing to adjust based upon actual experience. This goes for equipment access as well. The alternative is for players to hoard cash waiting and hoping for access to something, to meta-org shop, or to break the rules by AR-shopping and planning adventure play based around knowing what access is coming on the AR. Some may reply as above. Others won't. I understand you are describing the option, not condoning it. Despite that, the suggestion that it is an alternative to AR-shop is distasteful. Doing so is cheating. To say that the system is set up in a way that encourages or forces cheating (my paraphrase of the above) removes the resposibility from the player for making that decision. Make the right choice here, folks. This also causes a problem for players who gain access to consumables (something our local writers have gone overboard on recently); "Adventure" access to consumables like potions means that players either have to stock up or get the items and then hoard them. No one "has to" stock up and/or hoard. Providing this sort of access provides choices of behavior, not forced behavior. Seriously, is the suggestion here that writers should not give players these options because it creates problems for the player when he chooses to use the option? Hmm..maybe Brew Potion does have a purpose... :) The final problem is that in the current magic item creation rules, having "seen" access to an item is all that is required to craft it. While I think this is a good thing, I've heard comment from non-crafting characters that crafting feats essentially become an item-access feat, and it's a valid point; Wizards and Clerics and so on usually can go back and craft the various "Adventure" access items they saw in their early days, but a fighter who didn't have the money for certain armor or weapons is SOL. I'm of a mixed mind on this. On one hand, crafting certainly creates a disparity in wealth. On the other, it differentiates the crafters and encourages some level of generalization. All PCs have the ability to craft. It is a question of what feats you choose. If you build a character that doesn't have a mental stat worthy of a crafting feat, that's a choice. Greyhawk may be a bit anomolous in today's RPG environment. More than any other Living style campaign, it echos the early days of RPGs, where magic was supposed to be rare. The idea that the fighter has to put up with what he finds when he has the cash, while the wizard can craft the widget that he saw 20 years ago...it fits that style. I kinda like it. In general, I think complaints about access is a complaint along the lines of, "I can't have what I want." While I appreciate that 3rd edition generally is a more player-empowering enviroment, the games with durability generally have always given players the sense that they aren't getting everything they want. Having everything you could dream of does not create enduring interest. David
kenobi65 02-07-07, 02:35 PM	I think we've all seen APL2 access to adventure access material that no one could ever gain the resources to purchase and still have played at APL2. This sort of access then only fuels crafting or retroactive favors ("you may reactivate an old access"). Frustrating, but I really don't have a problem with the idea that you can't afford everything you ever encounter. I run LG semi-regularly for one of my home groups (some of whom play LG at conventions as well, some of whom don't). I can tell you that the access thing has become a recurring source of frustration to them. Most of them don't have particularly high-level PCs at this point (3rd or 4th for most of them), and they've gotten Adventure access to any number of items that they can never possibly afford before the access goes away. I am not exaggerating when I say that it's something that may drive some of these players away from LG. "You can't afford everything you ever encounter" is one thing. "You can't afford almost anything that you encounter" sometimes seems to be closer to the truth. I'd much rather have fewer items show up as "access" at APL 2 and 4, especially if there's almost no way that a PC at those levels could even hope to afford those items.
Howie23 02-07-07, 02:53 PM	"You can't afford everything you ever encounter" is one thing. "You can't afford almost anything that you encounter" sometimes seems to be closer to the truth. I'd much rather have fewer items show up as "access" at APL 2 and 4, especially if there's almost no way that a PC at those levels could even hope to afford those items. The basic magic resources (magic weapons, armor, scrolls, potions) are all LGCS access and are not tied to the ARs at all. Example: A fighter with a reasonable kit of +1 wpn, +1 armor of choice, maybe +1 shield is roughly 4th level (along with reasonable consumables and a cash reserve). They can't afford bigger items earlier in any non-Monty Haul campaign in the first place. Can't afford the cooler things...whets the appetite. :) David
kenobi65 02-07-07, 02:59 PM	The basic magic resources (magic weapons, armor, scrolls, potions) are all LGCS access and are not tied to the ARs at all. Oh, I know this. This isn't the issue. The issue is when they get an AR at APL 2 that says, "you have Adventure access to cool items X, Y, and Z." Well, then, they ask me, "What do cool items X, Y, and Z do?" And I look them up, and tell them, but then I have to tell them, "unfortuantely, they all cost 8,000gp, and there's no way you're going to have that kind of money in the next three adventures, sorry." And then their response is, "LG gives, and then it takes away. That's not fair! Why the heck do they give us 'access' to something we could NEVER buy???" And, unfortunately, "Adventure" access seems to be the default; it's unusual to get any other kind of access, IME. It doesn't "whet their appetite". It just pisses them off. Does my post make more sense now?
Howie23 02-07-07, 03:15 PM	Does my post make more sense now? I understood you the first time. Just providing a structure that can be used to help frame a positive response. FWIW, I have never had a problem with having too much money in this game as a result of insufficient access, meaning there is always something I can use, have access, and don't have the funds for. :) David
solbergb 02-07-07, 03:20 PM	When people first play LG, the access rules seem stupid. When they reach level 8 or so, they usually have enough access to spend most of their cash for the next 4-5 levels. By level 10, they tend to have enough access to spend all the cash earned until retirement. JUST with favors and the occasional regional/metaregional/core stuff. And I'm not talking random crap not useful - I'm talking stuff this character would really love to have. Adventure access stuff is usually picked up while saving for something else. However there is fair scope for impulse buys, tied to what kind of item you could conceivably purchase anyway at a given level. The values below assume you have a little cash leftover or are willing to sell something unimportant to squeak in with enough cash. Ie, this is what you can buy if you find something good the adventure AFTER you made yourself broke purchasing something. If you've started saving for the next item, this cap can be higher. APL2 - 2000gp or less (you earn 1800gp in 4 adventures, if you stick to APL2). Most stuff like this is already core access, but vest+1 is in this category APL4 - 3000gp or less (earn 2700gp in 4) Something like Eyes of the Eagle or a bump in armor from +1 to +2 or your first adamantine weapon or lesser metamagic rod of extend APL6 - 4000gp or less (earn 3600gp in 4) Something like vest of resistance +2 or gloves of arrow snaring. Comparable to +2 attribute items, which are common buys at this level, pearl of power2 APL8 - 6000gp or less (earn 5200gp in 4) weapon boost from +1 to +2, or two armor +1 boosts or something like slippers of spider climb. APL10 - 10000gp or less (earn 9200gp in 4) weapon boost from +2 to +3, or buy an item to +2 enh from scratch, lesser metamagic rod of empower, pearl of power 3, +3 cloak of resistance APL12 - 14000gp or less (earn 13200 in 4) attribute item +4 (assuming upgrade or sell back +2 item). Item like boots of speed or cloak of arachnid., upgrade to +4 resistance item. APL14 - 26000gp or less (earn 26400 in 4) attribute item +6 (sell back or upgrade+4). Buy +5 resistance item outright. Luckstone. upgrade from +1 to +3 weapon. It's actually pretty ok. These are the size of items you are usually buying in that level range. You can't buy those 10k APL2 items anyway, you don't have the cash. By the time you have the cash, you'll usually have enough access that you won't miss it.
echoota 02-07-07, 03:24 PM	Does my post make more sense now? Yes. Endlessly frustrating. It's also frustrating that one can't make any plans at all for proper equipment. You just wander the world, stumbling about and hoping you come across access to an item that you really want. It's really annoying that special missions can't grant item access. That's the classic adventure right there, the quest for the magic x... It would be nice at least if there was some kind of "rumors" resource where you can get hints as to which ARs to play to get access to a particular item. It would make the game that much more fun and enjoyable to litterally go on a quest to get something. You could see that if you go play a specific AR in another region then you might get access to x, and so you go and travel to that region in the real world, on your own personalized quest, to find the coveted item. In a regular home game the DM would give some kind of hints or rumors like that, it doesn't sound in any way off and just encourages more interaction between regions. I'm more playing LG at this point because friends are playing, but my priority is going towards Xen'drik and a home game now since in those if I want to get a specific item then I'll be able to get it, or at least make a direct attempt for it and not just cross my fingers and hope that at some ridiculously high level I'll finally get access to the item I wanted to play with all this time.
kenobi65 02-07-07, 03:34 PM	I understood you the first time. Just providing a structure that can be used to help frame a positive response. Oh, and I've been trying to frame it that way. My main LG PC is 6th, bordering on 7th level now, and I've definitely seen that there's a break-point (mostly, when you start playing APL 6, it feels like), where you start to be able to afford stuff. I tell them that. To those who are having an issue, 6th level is a long way away. However, their primary issue (which I don't disagree with) is this: why provide access to something that you can not possibly afford? Why give Adventure access to an 8K item at APL 2 in the first place? The only PCs to whom that's any benefit at all are those who choose to become crafters (and, even then, its a delayed benefit).
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-07, 03:43 PM	If the access is logically tied to how the item is encountered, then it will vary. Adventure access is an abstraction of dividing the loot that is encountered along the way. Regional, Meta-regional, Core, Any are all tied to the idea that the access is not "found stuff." If your access is via a contact, you need to be in proximity to that contact to obtain it. The contact lives somewhere, or only has influence somewhere. And that's a very good reason to change things slightly - say, set the system so that if your "Adventure" access has expired, you can pay a TU or two to seek the item back out. I wouldn't have a problem with that. I think we've all seen APL2 access to adventure access material that no one could ever gain the resources to purchase and still have played at APL2. This sort of access then only fuels crafting or retroactive favors ("you may reactivate an old access"). Frustrating, but I really don't have a problem with the idea that you can't afford everything you ever encounter. What it's used for, however, is to top-load a module; too often you have a module that goes from APL 2 to 10, for example, and yet the items listed in the APL 2 slot are obviously intended for the APL 8 people, in addition to the other things offered at their own APL tier. If you encounter the perfect item for your character concept and it exceeds your pocket book, you may be able to sell items to afford it, taking a hit in net worth to get there. If you choose not to in order to stay up with the "wealth-xp curve," you've made a decision about what is important to you. And when you couldn't afford the item even if you sold everything or had never bought anything more than mundane equipment, something is obviously wrong with the access setup here. The system rewards PCs who grow and respond to their experiences. While character optimization plans generally don't follow this design, that is a choice that players make that is direct conflict with the limited access system. Have a plan, but be willing to adjust based upon actual experience. This goes for equipment access as well. All the time in other threads, we see people saying "by level X you should have found access to Y equipment." Mod writers - those I know personally - have stated this same opinion: that they are tossing in something with a potentially combat-breaking ability because the players "should" have purchased the counter-item by now. Sorry, but that doesn't add up. Some may reply as above. Others won't. I understand you are describing the option, not condoning it. Despite that, the suggestion that it is an alternative to AR-shop is distasteful. Doing so is cheating. To say that the system is set up in a way that encourages or forces cheating (my paraphrase of the above) removes the resposibility from the player for making that decision. Make the right choice here, folks. I said that it would be cheating. But the fact remains that it is (a) nigh undetectable and (b) a major benefit to those who do it because of the current setup. And I do find it very distasteful. Too often I've seen people unintentionally break this rule, by recommending to another friend "dude, you should totally play this mod with character X." Most of the time they're just exuberant over the mod, and don't realize that this technically qualifies as cheating (I use the word technically because the campaign standards and docs tell us that unintentional mistakes should be corrected but not overly punished). No one "has to" stock up and/or hoard. Providing this sort of access provides choices of behavior, not forced behavior. Seriously, is the suggestion here that writers should not give players these options because it creates problems for the player when he chooses to use the option? Hmm..maybe Brew Potion does have a purpose... :) It's a thought that the access should be more realistic. I'm of a mixed mind on this. On one hand, crafting certainly creates a disparity in wealth. On the other, it differentiates the crafters and encourages some level of generalization. All PCs have the ability to craft. It is a question of what feats you choose. If you build a character that doesn't have a mental stat worthy of a crafting feat, that's a choice. Actually: - there are NO rules in the LGCS for crafting mundane items. - EVERY magical item otherwise requires caster levels. Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, etc... simply do not have the option to craft. They have no caster levels. It is not possible for them to do it, no matter if they are an 18 Int Fighter or not. This is why feats like Create Wondrous Item are so prevalent, but Craft Magical Arms and Armor is seen once in perhaps 10,000 characters. What I am proposing is that there be a better parity, so that the non-magical classes (or those who don't take the crafting feat route) might have the option to go back and get things in a manner somewhat similar to the magical ones. Greyhawk may be a bit anomolous in today's RPG environment. More than any other Living style campaign, it echos the early days of RPGs, where magic was supposed to be rare. The idea that the fighter has to put up with what he finds when he has the cash, while the wizard can craft the widget that he saw 20 years ago...it fits that style. I kinda like it. But that's not how the system works. It's a 28-point build, and the D&D game balance assumes that stat-bump items and other magical items are a way of life in the game. In general, I think complaints about access is a complaint along the lines of, "I can't have what I want." While I appreciate that 3rd edition generally is a more player-empowering enviroment, the games with durability generally have always given players the sense that they aren't getting everything they want. Having everything you could dream of does not create enduring interest. Actually, it's a complaint about the fact that caster classes, with a single feat, can have access to 90% of the niftiness they saw in the past while fighters are completely shut out. Parity between players is the problem.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-07, 03:50 PM	When people first play LG, the access rules seem stupid. Been playing for 4 years, they still do. When they reach level 8 or so, they usually have enough access to spend most of their cash for the next 4-5 levels. By level 10, they tend to have enough access to spend all the cash earned until retirement. I didn't have close to "enough" cash until I started crafting. My non-crafter characters generally have two problems: first, they can't afford the things they need, and second, the lower-level stuff they would get (stuff like skill-bump items) seem to have "wandered off" the access rotations for the past two years. And the writers all justify this with "well we gave access a while back so we're offering Stuff X for Class You're Not instead this year." JUST with favors and the occasional regional/metaregional/core stuff. And I'm not talking random crap not useful - I'm talking stuff this character would really love to have. You're lucky or living in a monty-haul region then. Adventure access stuff is usually picked up while saving for something else. I've never seen someone pick up a 45,000 GP item while "saving for something else." I've seen plenty who seem to plan their modules out just so they can reach 45,000 within 3 mods of when they know they will see the access. Yeah, it's cheating. But the current system encourages them to cheat. However there is fair scope for impulse buys, tied to what kind of item you could conceivably purchase anyway at a given level. The values below assume you have a little cash leftover or are willing to sell something unimportant to squeak in with enough cash. Ie, this is what you can buy if you find something good the adventure AFTER you made yourself broke purchasing something. If you've started saving for the next item, this cap can be higher. ...snip snip... It's actually pretty ok. These are the size of items you are usually buying in that level range. You can't buy those 10k APL2 items anyway, you don't have the cash. By the time you have the cash, you'll usually have enough access that you won't miss it. Hardly. With at most 4 AR's worth of access, and with the "rotation schedule" in place, the non-crafters are pretty much stuck in the cold for getting the stuff they saw earlier that was stuffed into their APL bracket just to pad the rewards for the higher-level players.
Howie23 02-07-07, 04:15 PM	All the time in other threads, we see people saying "by level X you should have found access to Y equipment." Mod writers - those I know personally - have stated this same opinion: that they are tossing in something with a potentially combat-breaking ability because the players "should" have purchased the counter-item by now. I don't. I just finished my 6th mod, and have never assumed an item. Maybe that's just the good authors who do that. :D Note that I don't write above APL8. Actually: - there are NO rules in the LGCS for crafting mundane items. - EVERY magical item otherwise requires caster levels. Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, etc... simply do not have the option to craft. They have no caster levels. It is not possible for them to do it, no matter if they are an 18 Int Fighter or not. This is why feats like Create Wondrous Item are so prevalent, but Craft Magical Arms and Armor is seen once in perhaps 10,000 characters. I didn't say otherwise. I didn't say that every character can craft, regardless of the character build. What I said was that every character can craft. Every character can take casting classes and crafting feats. Is this non-optimized? Maybe, maybe not. That's a different discussion. A counterexample: If there is such a disparity, everyone would build every character as a crafter. They don't. There is still value in non-crafting builds. But that's not how the system works. It's a 28-point build, and the D&D game balance assumes that stat-bump items and other magical items are a way of life in the game. Not sure what 28-point builds have to do with anything. The D&D game balance does not assume you have unlimited access to whatever your heart desires. As for stat-block items: these are LGCS access (+2). My highest level character is 9th level with 50 ARs. He has multiple access to +4 and +6 items and/or favors that he cannot afford. I have never played up more than 2 levels, and that's been once or twice. David
Franco Un-American 02-07-07, 04:31 PM	The biggest access problem I've found isn't in the high power at low APL problem. I guess I'm lucky enough to live in a region where standard items (weapon and armor +'s, ability boosters, etc.) are common enough that you can usually rely on finding what you need relatively soon. The bigger problem (to me) is actually in the realm of mundane items, especially armor and weapons. You need access to get things like greatbows, elven lightblades, mountain plate, and the like, but those are things that require feat investments that need planning. Few characters are able to just pick up the cool exotic weapon they found and start using it, and building a character to use such an item is risky at best, as there's no guarantee you'll find what you need. This is compounded by the fact that most module writers don't really think to include this sort of mundane item as a reward. You wind up having to shop around with Metaorgs that grant "Any" or "Core" access, just to be able to use a piece of basic equipment.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-07, 04:48 PM	The biggest access problem I've found isn't in the high power at low APL problem. I guess I'm lucky enough to live in a region where standard items (weapon and armor +'s, ability boosters, etc.) are common enough that you can usually rely on finding what you need relatively soon. The bigger problem (to me) is actually in the realm of mundane items, especially armor and weapons. You need access to get things like greatbows, elven lightblades, mountain plate, and the like, but those are things that require feat investments that need planning. Few characters are able to just pick up the cool exotic weapon they found and start using it, and building a character to use such an item is risky at best, as there's no guarantee you'll find what you need. "Unless you AR Shop" - which would be cheating. And woe to you should it ever get sundered after the access expires, now you're not just out the GP, but the Feat slot as well.
Japangirl 02-07-07, 05:45 PM	Actually, I started a rogue in LG, and the access problem has been so frustrating that my next characters will ALL be able to craft. In fact, I think I will never make another non-crafter again, because this is so ridiculous to me. The bard is the least "crafting" one, she actually might not be a crafter if I can justify it to myself somehow. However, she needs a lot less items and a lot less expensive items than the wizard, rogue, druid, and other wizard. I have saved up money for things several times, and spent it on adventure access goodies instead of what I was saving for instead. If I hadn't been saving, there is no way I could have gotten some of them. Case in point: saving for a weapon upgrade, I got access to Boots of Speed (making the weapon +2 to +4 is 24,000, I had almost half saved). I spent all the money I was saving up to make myself more effective in combat on another thing that was going to go away, but wasn't quite as useful (though it is still very useful). Now, I have realized I have to save up enough money to buy a Ring of Blinking, just in case I see one, before spending money on upgrades and various other items. Keeping 27k gold on hand is a huge waste of potential combat utility and defense, but it's necessary on the tiny off-chance that I see the item that I really want as adventure access somewhere. Yes, my rogue is 14th level and gets 6600g per APL 14 mod, assuming full gold. But the items she wants are also really expensive, and the one she has wanted to see since APL 6 (though not at APL 6, 27k gold isn't going to happen that early) hasn't ever showed up. I am not suggesting that it SHOULD show up, if mod authors don't want to put it there. But I don't think wasting money in cash-on-hand is a great way to play either, yet I find I have no choice. Yes, I'm taking what is a huge problem for anyone who can't craft and distilling it into my character's problem. But maybe those who claim it isn't a problem should see how it warps one character's money (and thus power) in specific in addition to the global claims. As for crafting being "non-optimized", it surely is not merely unoptimized if you want to be a rogue or barbarian or fighter, because you simply cannot craft and play these classes. It's impossible. Saying that people could just not play half the available classes doesn't really seem like saying there isn't a problem and that access in the current system isn't a problem. Non-crafting classes have value, but they lose huge power potential and "cool" items by losing access and not ever being able to get it back. I know a big reason my rogue is far less powerful than a wizard I play with is that the wizard basically gets all his items for half cost, and I don't. Thus, he has a lot more items than I do. Like it or not, items make characters powerful, so his toys/stuff/loot being cooler than mine means his character is more powerful than mine. This is not a powergamer's rant, but rather acknowledging that power is the ability to deal damage and stay alive. Items do that, and thus making access such that Craft Wondrous Access is almost required for anyone who can cast spells and just hoses anyone who can't, well, it seems an evident problem to me.
Franco Un-American 02-07-07, 06:14 PM	Well, there go most of my complaints. Huzzah!