Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vanadium 02-19-07, 08:26 PM	The old thread can be found here, but it is no longer active: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-665373.html In Living Greyhawk, it seems as if we see things that are quite nasty well before one might be prepared for them. Vampire Spawn at APL 2? Werewolves and Mephits with DR/Magic in Intro mods? Welcome to Greyhawk. By preparation, and preparation at low levels, the odds of you having an answer for whatever the authors can throw at you rises. Now, do you need to do all these things detailed? Not at all. There are many stories of people where they don’t pack some simple things that might help and find that they overcome their problems without them. However, there are times where a hard situation could be solved by having a little backup from somewhat mundane items. Just take this as what it is: some general advice. That, and some of it is just sound advice in general for all levels of play. General Advice Mundane equipment is good to pack in extras. You never know when you'll need an extra spell component pouch or holy symbol. Also, if you are already weighed down by armor and other gear, it doesn't hurt to pack what the Player's Handbook has for general items. You never know when that grappling hook will be handy or those extra rations could get information from a hungry NPC. Pretty much the best piece of advice that I think I can extend to people beginning Living Greyhawk is that consumable items, for the most part, rock. Now, this will come up again in the later sections, but there are just some things that everybody will probably want to have. One good piece of advice I heard was setting aside about a tenth of what is earned after modules for general use consumables. Some of the things I recommend are far more expensive than that, but at the same time, they really aren’t for general use. For example, everyone at low levels would probably want a potion of Cure Light Wounds (50 gold). Even better would probably be scrolls of Cure Light Wounds (25 gold), even if you cannot use one yourself as the odds are pretty good that someone at the table should be able to and they are cheaper. As you gain levels and the gold starts rolling in, there are some better utility potion that might be more attractive like Potions of Protection from Evil (50), Lesser Restoration (300), Remove Blindness (750), or Delay/Neutralize Poison (300/ 750). Sure, some of these things are quite expensive for low end characters. That’s why these can generally wait a while. However, there are some things like Potions of Fly (750) and Water Breathing (750) that are not things that you have for general use and instead, more for the ‘Need to be used or die’ category. You can take your time getting these, but remember them when money is less an issue. On a less costly note, a nice option to have is some way to make a smokescreen. Virtually all spellcasters can do this by virtue of spells, but literally everyone can accomplish this with a smokestick (20 gold). You never know when a hasty retreat is in order. Or that line of archers looks mean. Or chargers, animals, non-intelligent sighted things, or rogues. Really, there are many uses for fog. Smokesticks bring me to a really big thing: alchemical items. Anything that you can use Craft (alchemy) to create is good. Acid (10), Alchemist Fires (20), and Holy Water (25): all three of these accomplish the same ends, in that they deal damage to various things. For your casters, some flasks of acid could be a more reliable means of attacking due to the touch attack. For your fighter types, they might not be something you rely on, but should you encounter a swarm, you can pepper them with these things. Sure beats the 1d3 improvised torch damage. Everburning Torch (110): The only light source you’ll probably ever need, and also a pretty handing device for probing for Antimagic Fields at the very high levels of the campaign. Thunderstone (20): Randomly useful for shutting up annoying casters or bards at low levels before silence becomes more prevalent. Tanglefoot Bags (50): Probably the most expensive consumable that you would regularly use, but oh so useful. Some people actually insist that you carry as many as you can comfortably, seeing as they weigh a bit at 4 pounds apiece. But really, carry these things. With enough bags being hurled, encounters even up to APL 6, maybe even beyond that, can be trivialized (or delayed a very crucial round or two). These things rock to use and suck to be hit by. Animals are also pretty cool. Mules (8 gold) and Riding Dogs (150) are probably the best for this, even if you don’t ride them. Mules can carry stuff for low strength characters, can take a few hits at low levels, Riding Dogs are pretty good in combat for a good period of time as well. However, if you don’t ride the animal, then the animals will be added to your party for considering APL, and this might cause a problem in a few situations. Another word of advice, if you do have the animal, please me sure to have quick reference to their stats. Nothing can be as irritating as a player to have someone flipping through the Monster Manual all the time for a dog or a mule. Advice for Fighter-Types Weapons Have a Weapon for each Damage Type. This is quite big at low levels, as losing that 5 damage for poking a skeleton with a longsword hurts. Consider for a moment that most weapons people regularly use are slashing, and that morning stars, a simple weapon, are bludgeoning and piercing. Really, there shouldn’t be a problem getting this, even if you need to have three weapons. Archers, with the open access to the Races of the Wild arrows, get into the game too with the special arrows contained there. Special Materials are you Friends. Things with DR/material can pop up early, so try and get a silvered weapon and a cold iron weapon pretty quickly. Silvered morning stars are a pretty good investment for the most part. Access to adamantine needs to be earned, though. The same advice can be applied to ammunition as well. Consumables are still your Friends. For a melee character, you will probably want an Oil of Magic Weapon (50) going into the second (or even first) AR. Oil of Shillelagh (50) is good if you are using an applicable weapon. Basically, you’ll use them to bypass the DR/Magic that pops up from time to time early on, using them until you can afford a magic weapon. An Oil of Bless Weapon (100) is also nice to have, as DR/Good pops up from time to time. Reach Weapons might be useful. A simple longspear might help if you suddenly find yourself in cramped quarters, where its poke over an ally’s shoulder or do nothing at all. Most exotic weapons aren’t really worth it. Some just don’t get benefit for the feat and tend to be harder to get upgrades for (like flaming, etc). However, things like whips, nets, and bolas tend to be useful without that feat. There is nothing stopping you from using them for tripping/ensnaring when in a pinch. Archers have a special money woe early on, and that is mighty bows are just too expensive. However, archers with their normally high strengths, dexterities, and low constitutions can get by with a shield and a javelin. Javelins in general are pretty good for a ranged option until those mighty bows are more feasible. Saps are good for melee types. You never know when you might wish to take someone in alive a little easier. That, and there are some areas in Living Greyhawk where very bad things can happen to you if you kill or deal lethal damage to citizens. One gold to avoid stiff TU costs in some areas? Yeah, that’s a good trade-off. Blunt arrows do this for archers. Armor and Shields Playing a heavy-armored character? Well, that shiny armor is a good ways off due to cost. 50 gold will net you a scale mail, which will tide you over for a few ARs, or at least until you can move up a little, to breastplates or whatever. For those high cost armors, I know of many that intentionally save what they need for it +1150 gold to buy it magical to help avoid shatters. Regardless, for higher end armors, there is no reason not to have an extra 150 gold around for masterwork quality when buying it. Got a light armor character? Studded Leather (15) used to be a pretty good compromise between mobility and protection, but now we have Sharkskin Armor (85), which is essentially studded leather with an added bonus of acting as set of spiked armor. Playing a Druid? Well, before Studded Leather was pretty much it for what you had access to by default. Not so now with the new LGCS. New armor options open up in Stormwrack (Shell, Chitin, and that Sharkskin) and Races of Stone (Stone Plate) if you get the Heavy Armor proficiency from somewhere. Don’t forget about your companion, either, as masterwork studded leather barding can help all companions. Like Tower Shields but don’t have the feat for it? The Hide Shield from Sandstorm is basically a Tower Shield, and you only need shield proficiency to use it. The also have a lower check penalty and lower penalty to attack, so they work even for those with the proficiency for a tower shield. They still weigh a bit, though, so lightly encumbered people should probably stay away. Riding a mount? Riding Straps are open and help out with those early ride checks for a low cost (150 gold). Other fun options in armor have opened up, but these are probably the more usable ones. Caster Advice Casters don’t really have the strength to hang onto all the weapons outlined above and for the most part, they don’t need them. Offense can be handled via crossbows or even flasks of acid. Mules can carry the load for 8 strength wizards. So, what do you want for a caster? Consumables. Where the advice in general was to spend about a tenth of what you earn on consumables, for a caster, you might do well to spend a full half or so of what you earn on consumables for your first level's worth of ARs or so. However, most of that money should go to a unique commodity: scrolls. Every caster can do well by hoarding some low levels scrolls. Basically, look for good durations, no saves, or utility things, avoiding most damage spells, or most things that need a save. Examples of what you want things like Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Comprehend Language, Magic Weapon, Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Endure Elements, Entangle, Faerie Fire, and so on. Think of these either as a way to have those spells at hand that you don’t really want to memorize or learn, but may want to use. With certain spells, the scrolls will allow you to act as a caster more rounds per day at low levels. Scrolls like these can be picked up until about third level scrolls (where the cost is more prohibitive), but those in the second and third level range should be more for utility, like See Invisibility, Invisibility, Silence, Spider Climb, and so on. Of course, this isn't something for the first few ARs, but just general advice. Additionally, those general potions mentioned above can be scrolls if they are on your class list, as scrolls are cheaper and can generally be relied on to work. On a bigger note, scrolls of Cure Light Wounds are good, even if you cannot use them. You can hand them off to someone that can, and this helps ease healer burdens earlier. Eventually, you might want a wand of Cure Light Wounds for the same use in post-combat healing. The reason? Cost efficiency. Here’s the breakdown: Potion of CLW:50 gold, 50 gold/use Scroll of CLW: 25 gold, 25 gold/use Wand of CLW: 750 gold, 15 gold/use It doesn’t hurt that even among the higher wands, the wand of Cure Light Wounds heals more hitpoints per gold spent. As a side note, should you even get access to a wand of Lesser Vigor, it might be smart to purchase it, seeing as they are the king of post-combat healing in terms of healing/gold spent (11 HP/charge as opposed to ~5.5).
Vanadium 02-19-07, 08:38 PM	Here are some items I think work well for 1st level characters - part of this is based on solbergb's very good list on the yahoogroup. I added a couple of details I felt were missing. Weapons: Halberd or Morningstar = Medium Armor or Ranger Guisarme or Longspear Club Javelin Sling Whip Halberd covers two DRs, Club the other. Javelin/Sling provide range and a Whip is an extremely cheap weapon which can be useful, even to a Wizard. If you're firing into melee, you're taking that -4 penalty anyway, and the 15' range keeps you out of reach of a 5' step. d20s are random enough that as an example, my 10 Str Bard without Improved Trip tripped a 20+ something Strength Vampire at one point. Armor: Scale Mail - cheap for when you upgrade in AR 2, yet provides decent AC. Studded Leather - reasonable balance between mobility/protection. Strength might influence this. Casters: Spell Component Pouch Divine Focus Spellbook Light Crossbow Equipment to think about: Backpack with bedroll and winter blanket waterskin 5 days rations Flint and steel and a sunrod Rope, pitons, grappling hooks Torches Alchemist's fire and a few flasks of oil Encumbrance: Basically, you should try to keep your encumbrance to one of two levels, depending on your role. Tank: Go for Medium Armor - as that limits your movement anyway, you'll be able to go for Medium Encumbrance. Everyone else: Go for Medium Encumbrance/Light Armor, but make the thing that puts you into Medium Encumbrance something easily dropped or gotten rid of. Here is a pretty good post I found in the Wealth Management Thread. Does this old thread on the Yahoo Message Group still exist? I am afraid I'm not a member there.
UMiskatonic 02-19-07, 10:26 PM	Keep that scale mail when you buy your full plate. It's often better than manacles. 1) Heavy armor shuts down 30' movement, and tumbling. Best not to have the prisoner run away too quickly. 2) Heavy armor takes away druidic spellcastic, imposes stiff arcane spell failure possibilities, prevents flurry of blows, evasion, and ranger combat styles. 3) Armor also imposes an armor check penalty, and hampers anyone unproficient in its use. 4) It's probably worse armor that that owned by any fighters or clerics you'll meet. While it's not as big a deal, it might help there too.
UMiskatonic 02-19-07, 10:30 PM	Aside from that, im in favor of the following... another spell component pouch another holy symbol spiked gauntlets oil of bless weapon oil of magic weapon silver weapon or silversheen a weapon of each damage type -or- useful scrolls a CLW wounds potion (to be used ON you, not BY you) an antitoxin a potion of lesser restoration a potion of water breathing a potion of fly
tilloch 02-19-07, 11:15 PM	Here is something Ken Jenks posted in the LG Yahoo! group regarding player and DM expectations. I believe it is part of the original dicussion you're referring to. It sparked quite a bit of discussion in our little group when we read it. Have Fun! ;) ________________________________________ _______________________ APL gives a reasonable idea about what combat capabilities we can expect from a party. But what about their non-combat capabilities? What should we expect? We know pretty much what to expect from adventuring party in an intro mod. They might have had one or two adventures under their belts, but they might all be fresh starting characters. So we DMs can't expect them to have magical weapons or even scrolls and potions, since those can't be purchased until the character gets his first AR. They can't deal at all well with incorporeal opponents, opponents with high damage reduction, or flying opponents with ranged weapons. After the end of their first adventure, I expect every player character to invest in some disposable items. Every single PC. There is some gear that is absolutely indispensible to survival at all APLs. Everyone should have a way of inflicting damage at a distance. This can be a ranged weapon, flasks of oil, some scrolls or a wand. Everyone should have a potion of CLW. This can be used to stabilize PCs who are at negative HP, especially for the unconcious cleric who is the only one in the party who can cast a Cure spell. Everyone should have a Potion of Invisibility. This enables sneaking away from an encounter gone bad, or sneaking past guards, if someone gets captured, or sneaking into a fortified place, as required by many plots. If there's even one PC in a party who can't go invisible, that PC can be a major impediment to party survival. If we all get in trouble and we want to bug out invisibly, we are forced into a decision about abandoning that PC or fighting an encounter beyond what we, as a party, think is reasonable. Almost everyone should have a smokestick (or some other way of generating obscurement, like a scroll of Obscuring Mist), a light source, and a way to light a fire. All spellcasters should have a back-up spell component pouch in case their primary gets stolen or destroyed. Everyone who uses weapons should have a back-up weapon in case their primary gets stolen or destroyed. As a DM (and as a player), I expect every single LG character to have that kind of gear before his second AR. If he doesn't have it, I have a helpful NPC suggest it to him during the game and I try to find a way to let them go shopping. This stuff is really vital for character survival when things go bad. And because this is, in part, a game of chance, things will go bad sometimes. At APL 4 and above every single PC should have a way to breath underwater and a way to fly (or Spider Climb, at a minimum). Every character who uses weapons should have a magical weapon. Depending on the region, they should have cold iron and silver weapons -- but always when playing a Core, since those can go almost anywhere. There should be at least one Silence spell in the party, from an item, on a scroll or prepared. I expect an APL 4 party to be able to scout out an encounter and bypass it if it looks too dangerous. I expect See Invisibility in the party, prepared or on a scroll. I expect the melee guys to win almost every combat, with the spellcasters helping out a little. At APL 8 and above, every single PC should have a way to get out of a locked cage, like a Potion of Gaseous Form or teleportation. Everyone must be able to fly. At least someone in the party needs to have a way to see in the dark, like darkvision or a bat familiar. I expect Invisibility Purge in the party, prepared or on a scroll. At least someone in the party should have a Potion of Lesser Restoration (since the scroll and the spell take so long to cast). I expect all APL 8+ characters to have some magic items that they loan out to their buddies, like a Pearl of Power or like, "My fighter likes to get enlarged sometimes. Please have your sorcerer decipher this scroll of Enlarge Person (Read Magic or Spellcraft DC 20) so that you can cast it on me in combat, if you have time." I expect all characters to tell the other characters in their party about any magic items which could be of use, like wands and potions, and to have a list of other characters' scrolls they have deciphered in advance (so we don't have to deal with that stuff during combat). I expect Haste in round 1. I expect the melee guys to win most of the combats, but the spellcasters play a major supporting roll. At APL 10 and above, I expect every party to have Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, and Restoration, at least in scroll form. I expect the whole party to be able to sleep in a Rope Trick spell or otherwise not have to deal with wandering encounters at night unless they want to. I expect that there will be at least one character who flies all the time, and at least one character who hides or remains invisible all the time. I expect the party to be able to make some outrageous skill checks, with a bit of preparation, using something like Imbue with Spell Ability to grant the ability to cast Divine Insight. I expect enough savvy about the plot of an LG scenario that the players would have a good guess as to when to employ such a tactic. I expect tactics like centering multiple Fireball spells on the Greater Invis rogue (with evasion, a good Relfex save and a reroll) and the tanked-up fighter (with Spell Immunity to Fireball). I expect the melee guys and the spellcasters to be about equally valuable and effective in winning battles. At APL 12 and above, every single PC should have a way to penetrate a locked, guarded facility and to get out again. This could be as simple as two potions of Gaseous Form or two Dimension Door spells. I expect all-day buff spells like Empower Spell + False Life, Greater Magic Fang, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments. I expect bard song, Mass Fly, Mass Fireshield, Mass Conviction, Mass Shield of Faith, or some other way to buff up the whole party in a hurry. I expect Greater Invisibility. I expect See Invisibility or True Seeing to be used often. I expect each spellcaster to have a way to do something useful inside a Silence spell cast by an opponent. I expect every character to be able to disguise himself as someone else for long enough to get through a well-guarded door. Given enough prep time, I expect the party to have a way to buff up and support one character so that he can pretty much take on any normal combat all by himself. I expect the whole party to be able to fly with little expenditure of resources. I expect enough long-range firepower that the flying party can take out almost any encounter of non-flying monsters from the air in three rounds or less. I expect fighters who want Haste to have Boots of Speed or a cohort who casts it on them, rather than relying on the party wizard to spend his valuable time casting a low-level spell. I expect each character to have a way of inflicting moderate damage to a tough creature in an Antimagic Field. I expect all APL 12+ parties to have Heroes' Feast going all through the adventuring day. I expect spellcasters to dominate each combat, but the melee guys still making a contribution. I expect several monsters to be rendered ineffective without taking any damage (charm, domination, paralysis, walled off from combat, whatever). At APL 14, I expect Heroes' Feast 24x7. I expect Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Split Ray and Repeat Spell so that most spellcasters will be casting multiple effects for a round or two. I expect one or more Brilliant Energy weapons or the Brilliant Aura spell, so an opponent with armor and shield will have little real protection. I expect that the party will have a way to share Target: You spells (a weapon or Ring of Spell Storing, an Ioun Stone) like Shield or False Life, and I expect that they will do this often. I expect melee characters to hold off the monsters long enough for the spellcasters to win each combat, with the melee guys doing comparatively little damage. So if you have an adventuring party that isn't performing up to your expectations, you might try having a friendly NPC step in and talk to the characters about what can be expected of them and how they can be more prepared. Or you can talk to the players, out of character. Although sometimes nothing will prevent disaster, adequate preparation can greatly reduce the chance of a TPK. === As you can see, I have high expectations. What are yours? __________________ -- Ken Jenks
_metz_ 02-20-07, 12:36 AM	I agree with everything posted here. I came across players recently who didn't know what tanglefoot bags were and had somehow survived to level 7 and 8. This shocked me, and made me wonder how on earth they pulled it off. I expect APL 6 parties to have a remove blindness/deafness available at all times, a remove curse/remove disease at all times, and each character needs a water breathing, and a potion of fly. Don't even get me started on Lesser Restorations and how they save your life. I was DMing a game where I blinded the PCs, they had no remove blindess, (APL 6) Another one where they went into a mine that they were told was FULL of ghouls and didn't buy or prepare any remove paralysis Lets not get started on the druid who didn't have a reduce animal handy... (level 8) Also everyone needs to know WHAT they are doing first round. No hiding, no everyone delaying, there needs to be some initiative. If I am playing an APL 6 with a Bard level 8, A wizard, a Fighter, and I am a cleric, I expect first round to go something along the lines of: Wizard casts Enlarge on fighter, Cleric casts a buff, Bard casts haste, Fighter readies with Glaive, and the Party rogue readies from its scouting position to tumble into flank. NOT Wizard hides, cleric readies to be charged, Fighter charges and rogue gets a suicidal sneak attack in cos it got higher initiative. Lets just say the players who were somehow surviving without any gear now have to think things through a lot more lol. I think at APL 8 there should be a Freedom of Movement around as well, and players should have scrolls of spells that they really need, like see invis, fly etc. Moreover, Fighters should have thier own Wands of curing/pearls or whatever, not relying purely on the cleric to heal thim using up valuable spells. Spells like Haste and Recitation should be stock standard if you are able to buff. Also, players need to stop relying on others to buy scrolls for them in case of emergencies, one such player who never bought anything got caught out when a mass emergency hit in a mod and the sensible players needed their emergency remove curses for thier own Mummy Rot. The one guy who didn't... I try to hint to parties what they should purchase,(YOu ARE going to a really cold mountain FULL of GHOULS) but if characters are underprepared then they reap what they sow. Its amazing how less dangerous that wyvern is with a tanglefoot bag on it. And Alchemist's fire on swarms is a must.
Mommy was an Orc 02-20-07, 04:03 AM	Whoops. Stupid prunes. Linked this to the new compilation.
Genghis Cohen 02-20-07, 07:54 AM	Keep that scale mail when you buy your full plate. It's often better than manacles. 1) Heavy armor shuts down 30' movement, and tumbling. Best not to have the prisoner run away too quickly. 2) Heavy armor takes away druidic spellcastic, imposes stiff arcane spell failure possibilities, prevents flurry of blows, evasion, and ranger combat styles. 3) Armor also imposes an armor check penalty, and hampers anyone unproficient in its use. 4) It's probably worse armor that that owned by any fighters or clerics you'll meet. While it's not as big a deal, it might help there too.That's a great idea!
Vanadium 02-20-07, 09:54 AM	Whoops. Stupid prunes. Linked this to the new compilation. That's why its here :) . Also, it was because when I began playing LG I read this thread, and I saw that the locals I play with do virtually none of these things. You see an alchemist fire or tanglefoot bag here or there, but I've met so many wizards that have never crafted a day in their lives. People carry potions and scrolls of CLW to hand off to the cleric, but nobody has that escape option, nobody has the 'cheaper than a raise dead' potions. Hell, I barely see people with ranged weapons or even alternate types of damage.
Mommy was an Orc 02-20-07, 10:32 AM	That's why its here :) . Also, it was because when I began playing LG I read this thread, and I saw that the locals I play with do virtually none of these things. You see an alchemist fire or tanglefoot bag here or there, but I've met so many wizards that have never crafted a day in their lives. People carry potions and scrolls of CLW to hand off to the cleric, but nobody has that escape option, nobody has the 'cheaper than a raise dead' potions. Hell, I barely see people with ranged weapons or even alternate types of damage. I think a lot of people aren't used to the concept that you use consumables to prevent the obvious from happening - I think Ken Jenk's list is a bit too extensive - there's a careful balance that needs to be struck between having enough consumables on hand to turn a combat and not having so many consumables that you'll lose a combat if you don't use them up too fast. solbergb I believe said the spend half your early wealth on consumables if you're a Wizard. My general goal is to use about 10% of my character's return from a mod on consumables - if I'm playing APL 2, I expect that I'll spend 45 gp on consumables/mod. Anything that can keep me at that number is beneficial. An example is a Pearl of Power 1st level - I try as hard as possible to get one of those early as possible - because it means if the Divine Caster is memorizing Lesser Vigor, I contribute anywhere from 11-45 hp of healing per mod with it. Assume the average over the life of the character is twice a mod for 30 hp, that's 7 charges from a Wand of CLW or 105 gp of healing. After say 80 mods, I've gotten a return of more than 7K from a 1K item. Naturally, all that gold doesn't go directly to my pocket, but... I'll try to have a range of cheap 1st level scrolls on hand for whatever I want to do and emergancy potions for when something is necessary(Protection from Evil for a low Wis Fighter), but maybe the caster type won't have time to do it on me.
Vanadium 02-20-07, 11:12 AM	solbergb I believe said the spend half your early wealth on consumables if you're a Wizard. My general goal is to use about 10% of my character's return from a mod on consumables - if I'm playing APL 2, I expect that I'll spend 45 gp on consumables/mod. Anything that can keep me at that number is beneficial. Okay, I'll wait a bit and then give him credit above for that. I'll also add the Wizard caveat. I guess because I was playing a wizard I took that as general advice all around. Makes sense for the wizard, though, as they don't do much with weapons, armor, and those consumables help them act as a wizard longer. Good advice about the 'tithing' for consumables. That seems to be a fairly good rule of thumb to replenish those supplies. I'm thinking I might do an overhaul of the information with those first two posts I have once we get more input. You know, compile what is said and organize everything so it flows well. Any thoughts on that? EDIT: From random browsing at the CO board, I found a way to access the archive. The old thread can be found here. I'll put a link in the original thread as well. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-665373.html Do we still want this active one? I assume we do.
Mommy was an Orc 02-20-07, 11:40 AM	Going over various things: I'd get a Wand of CLW by default in APL 2. Oil of Shillelagh are quite potent for the cost - 50 gp for a 2d6+1 weapon that can be used with TWF or Monk's Flurry... Scrolls of Enlarge Person are much more valuable than Potions - 1/10th the cost is a big deal. Archers should always have a melee weapon - a lot of Archer builds, particularly with the new Strength bow limits are quite powerful at melee. That and Power Attack can even make them into a primary tank when necessary. I can't quite remember, but I seem to recall that all Wondrous items up to 750 gold are Open access now. If this is the case, they offer very good (albiet more expensive options) like universal solvent (50gp), Anchor Feather tokens (50gp), various elixers (250 gp) and possibly the greatest of all, the Tree Feather Token (400gp). These are not open - only Potions, Arcane Scrolls, Divine Scrolls, and Wands are covered by the 750 gp limit. That does make a Wand of Enlarge Person a pretty good deal.
Paul H 02-20-07, 12:48 PM	Hi An Alternate Opinion Whilst this is useful information - and only a suggestion - I prefer to play my character my way. The suggestions to buy items from your 1st AR exceed the maximum GP allowable (by my reckoning). The argument that these are suggestions that the party should have access to (not one PC) doesn't hold true - most of us have different players/party mixes when we game. There is also the case to be made of not spending too much on consumables when you're saving for that 'special access' only item, which has to be bought next few AR's. Or even your 1st magic weapon. Certainly agree, though, with at least a potion CLW, and oil Magic Wpn/Shillelagh for close combat types. Should leave you with 350gp spare (after AR1) for other items. I normally play spellcasters (of one sort or another), so I may see things differently. Cheers Paul H
Jay_Ibero_911 02-20-07, 01:00 PM	Then there are those lousy intro mods that cap at 125gold....wtf? The fighter I started owned more than that in equipment value going into the mod...
Mommy was an Orc 02-20-07, 01:19 PM	Let's try to focus on what you'd buy with your first few ARs of Gold, please. If you see something you wouldn't buy, say why if you feel a need to comment on it. No one here is really telling you how to play your character - even Ken Jenk's list is just outlining the capabilities he expects to see from a given character at a given APL. If there's a big crime committed by a lot of players, is that they underinvest in party healing, making clerics less fun to play. The more non-healing spells they can cast in combat, the more fun they'll have, and therefore, the more people will play clerics in a given region.
Vanadium 02-20-07, 03:02 PM	These are not open - only Potions, Arcane Scrolls, Divine Scrolls, and Wands are covered by the 750 gp limit. That does make a Wand of Enlarge Person a pretty good deal. Its gone, then. I'll edit that portion from the first post. I remembered that there were 4 tables open, but I guess I forgot that Arcane and Divine Scrolls were seperate tables.
Akhamshyy 02-20-07, 05:56 PM	What I think would help would be a simple shopping list. Nothing too extensive, lets give room to save up for the things people want. Lets help players manage their gold so they have the stuff they need and can still get what they want when they find it and no be broke. How about we make this a guide to saving up for that raise dead, but equipping yourself so you never need it.
LGMoses 02-21-07, 10:01 AM	Greyhawk has made me paranoid. Now, whenever I play dnd regardless of what type or with who, I bring a weapon of every type, some silver, and a cold iron weapon. O, and if I can afford it, some way to make my weapon magical like an oil or just it being magic. Darn gargoyles....
Reylance 02-21-07, 02:40 PM	I find Ken Jenks's list a bit too expansive. Here are my suggestions. At character creation, each PC should have a slashing and bludgeoning weapon. Even those PCs restricted to simple weapons can pick up a sickle and a club. Skeletons and zombies are very reasonable foes for intro modules. Pick up a ranged (and piercing) weapon in a bow or crossbow. After the first module, each PC should pick up potions of cure light wounds. Each fighting PC should pick up oil of magic weapon, and oil of bless weapon. DR/good is rare at APL 2, but this oil also can get past DR/magic in a pinch. I would keep oil of magic weapon until both your melee weapon and your ranged weapon are magic. Around that time, also get a masterwork weapon and silver and cold iron weapons. The latter is especially cheap. Strong PCs should pick up strength bows of the appropriate level (masterwork unless a bump in Strength bonus is imminent). By 2nd level, pick up a wand of cure light wounds. Each PC should pick up at least one pearl 1st when encountered, to help with after-combat healing or to share a spell like mage armor. Also pick up the following rare items if found: scroll of align weapon, scroll of restoration. I'm pretty bad about buying things like alchemist's fire or acid, but buying these is a good idea. Fighting characters should buy their weapon in adamantine when available. If you can afford it, and you're not a primary fighter, pick up an adamantine heavy mace or morningstar for clay golems. Utility scrolls/potions for spells that aren't level-dependent (lesser restoration, remove paralysis, remove blindness/deafness, neutralize poison) are good for second, maybe third level spell. Beyond that, you start talking about real money. I don't like to buy a dozen 700 gp utility scrolls when that money could buy two stat bump items or a +1 weapon enhancement. Some of my disagreements with Ken: Fly: I like an emergency potion, for instances when you're facing full-plate-barded fiendish dire animals of legend or other nasty creatures that can't fly. But for combat against flying creatures, I think the fly spell from the wizard or travel cleric is sufficient against most creatures. I think just one PC is needed to face these creatures most of the time. If a spellcaster, one PC in melee plus the artillery will deal enough damage. If something like a dragon, in the air, they're not doing massive full attack damage, and that time waiting for breath weapons to recharge allows the party to buff/debuff/shoot. "With little expenditure of resources" is a ridiculous assumption. Permanent fly items are very expensive and very rare. Disguise: Maybe in the Bandit Kingdoms. Otherwise, you should not expect PCs to have enough Bluff to get past APL-appropriate guards. Getting in and out: Since only one PC will typically be able to cast dimension door, which doesn't affect the entire party, that just doesn't work, even with scrolls. In that situation, I expect mundane entrance with dimension door/teleport as an emergency escape only. Getting out of a cell: PCs shouldn't be in this situation normally, and if they are, chances are they don't have their items. Death Ward: The problem here is you normally don't know you need it until combat, at which point you're restricted to the cleric's action to cast it. Sharing Target:You spells. Especially with new item creation restrictions, I would not expect this at any APL.
kjenks 02-21-07, 04:28 PM	What I think would help would be a simple shopping list. Nothing too extensive, lets give room to save up for the things people want. Lets help players manage their gold so they have the stuff they need and can still get what they want when they find it and no be broke. How about we make this a guide to saving up for that raise dead, but equipping yourself so you never need it. I can't write such a shopping list for every character because it really depends on the capabilities of the character. For example, scrolls are fine for most of the emergency spellcasting needs I identified in the post above, but only if the character can reliably activate the scroll. That's not much good for a fighter unless he invests a whole lot in Use Magic Device. I realize that I may expect more from your character than you do, and other people's characters often don't meet my expectations. You just need to decide: What capabilities do you expect from your character? How will you attain those capabilities? What will you do to help your party members achieve whatever capabilities you think they need?
UMiskatonic 02-22-07, 01:13 PM	"With little expenditure of resources" is a ridiculous assumption. Well, that depends on how you define resources. I can see that Reylance and Ken have different definitions, so let's straighten it out. Reylance, I believe, is looking at 'resources' in terms of overall character wealth. How many gold coins has that character ever made, and where did they end up? This point of view is going to carefully consider what percentage of wealth to use on consumables, and what percentage on long-term goods, like magic items. What to buy next will also be a big concern. Ken Jenks, I believe, is looking at 'resources' in terms of "What useful thing can you do in the next six seconds?" From this perspective, a flying carpet is NOT a use of resources, because once you own it, you can fly wherever you like, whenever you like, and you won't use it up. This point of view is going to set its goals first (see his post above), and then figure out ways to get there with spells, equipment, or special abilities. Costs are a bit secondary to rules like "always have a see invis potion". Resource management will be a bit of a concern here. Ex) Do I use the boots of speed in this encounter, or do I wait until later? Does that seem right to you guys?
UMiskatonic 02-22-07, 01:20 PM	Overall, I'm with Ken on this one. As you play, you will have a steady influx of gold. Your gear will steadily improve. Your job is to direct that flow of wealth. On the whole, I feel that there are two things you can do with coin, which is your 2nd least valuable resource. You can do something better, or do something new. (Thanks, John) Ex. 1) A vest of resistance adds +1 to your saves. You can make saving throws without the vest, however. This is an example of doing something better. Ex. 2) A potion of fly allows you to do something new. You can't fly without the potion. Generally, I'll go for the Ex. 2 options first. However, I won't automatically use them immediately. Some of my consumable items have sat uselessly on my MIL for quite a while (looking at YOU, swan boat). When those are secure, I'll save up for the Ex. 1 items. I'll try to purchase a complete set of smaller items, and then upgrade to more powerful ones. a vest + 1, armor +1, a weapon + 1, and a ring +1 is preferable to gloves +4.
JamesMaissen 02-22-07, 01:31 PM	One key to managing consumables in my experience is categorizing them into atleast three categories: everyday use, special tools and panic buttons. Everyday use: something that you use without feeling the cost. A wand of cure light wounds tends to quickly fall into this category. These are items that you buy expecting to use. Special tools: items that you get for when the situation comes up. Scrolls of comprehend languages, scrolls of command undead, etc. You have to be sure that you don't get too excited when the special situation and use the item in a situation where you don't need it. Have some restraint with these items. Expect these items to lay untouched for along time, but to feel its worth it when the situation comes up that you need it for.. Panic buttons: the get out of jail free card. These items you don't want to use even when the situation comes up, but the alternatives are worse. Don't have too many of these, and certainly don't use them unless you have to. But it's cheaper than a raise dead, and if it can save the entire table then you're a hero for having it. The problem with consumables is that people buy consumables from one category and use them as if they were in a higher category. They buy a panic button, but use it the first time the situation comes up. Or they buy a special tool but use it each and every mod. Economics will determine the categorization of consumables. A potion of fly starts out as too high a price to have, then becomes a panic button, but later turns into a special tool (so that a fighter can get rid of that annoying flying wizard). As long as you use them properly consumables can let you extend your parties capabilities. The power bump up is on level with the difference between playing an optimized vs iconic character if not greater. -James
cetiken 02-25-07, 01:40 PM	My opinion is to divide things in two rough catagories. For people who like to hit things: 1st AR: Masterwork Cold Iron Weapon that you hit things with, Potion of CLW 2nd AR: Potion of Bless Weapon, Magic Weapon, Lesser Restoration, Silver alternate weapon 3rd +: start saving up for somthing nice - +1 weapon, MW Full Plate, keep buying potions and things as needed. For people who like spellcasting: 1st: Scrolls of usefull spells, Familar (if applicable) 2nd: MW CI weapon (if you're willing to engage in fighting at all), or grab a couple of higher priced scrolls - fly, dispel magic etc 3rd+: again start saving for the nicer things in life Pearl of Power, Amulet of Wis, Wands etc
cycloptic_squirrel 02-27-07, 05:00 AM	First AR of gold? A dog. Doesn't matter the character, I've done it. A guard dog costs only 25 gp. In my group we've determined that a guard dog is the regular small dog. At only 6 hp it'll only soak one hit (maybe two), but that's one swing not directed at you, and before that it'll add a little damage. Pound for pound, it's much cheaper than a healing potion. If pushing up the APL is a problem, jst say you're leaving the dog at home. If you want to go for the more expensive option, a riding dog will usually last you almost until APL 6.
Vanadium 02-27-07, 09:47 AM	First AR of gold? A dog. Doesn't matter the character, I've done it. A guard dog costs only 25 gp. In my group we've determined that a guard dog is the regular small dog. At only 6 hp it'll only soak one hit (maybe two), but that's one swing not directed at you, and before that it'll add a little damage. Pound for pound, it's much cheaper than a healing potion. If pushing up the APL is a problem, jst say you're leaving the dog at home. If you want to go for the more expensive option, a riding dog will usually last you almost until APL 6. Well, if you are going to do that, why not take it to the next level? A mule costs 8 gold pieces, has 2 attacks of 1d4+3 at a +4 bonus to hit, you can ride them, they can carry things for weaker characters, and all this is done with a whopping 22 hitpoints. I'm not sure how good they would be at taking a blow, as unlike non-warhorses and donkeys, there is nothing in the mule's entry that states they flee from battle. They even treat their kick as a primary weapon, from the damage it does. Looking at the monster data again, mules and light warhorses are identical except the light warhorse has a bite as a secondary attack, twice as fast and it costs 150 gold as opposed to 8. Then again, the warhorse explicitly can be ridden into combat without trouble. Nothing seems to state that a mule can be ridden into combat without penalty, but there is also nothing that says it can't. Then again, nothing explicitly states you can ride mules in the first place. Mule trained for War is another War-animal question that doesn't need to be asked. Nothing stopping you from giving it combat riding as a trick, though. Even if you aren't riding it (although it would be nice if you could go into combat with one. They are a lot cheaper and just as durable as light warhorses after all) , they are a welcome asset in my mind. They do tip the scales as a CR 1 monster, though. No problems if you bring one, but if everyone did at a full table, you might have problems. However, its still a mule. That's either insanely awesome or lame, depending on the group you are with.
Timlagor 02-27-07, 05:31 PM	My Wiz11 has had a mule since first level for carrying things and I never noticed how hard they kick. Don't you buy a Riding dog with your starting gold? ;)
cycloptic_squirrel 02-28-07, 02:39 AM	However, its still a mule. That's either insanely awesome or lame, depending on the group you are with. An attack mule? I can't decide if that's incredibly cool, or really pathetic. As a judge I might have issues until I realize that it's within the rules. A dog always seemed more... natural. A mule might kick in self defense, but it'd be a pretty neat trick to get it to attack unprovoked. I did always want to start up a shepard and begin play with a flock of sheep. Wouldn't do much in battle, just get in the way, I guess. And get things thrown at me. ;) But anyway, a well picked animal can really help out in the low levels.
LGMoses 02-28-07, 09:48 AM	I did always want to start up a shepard and begin play with a flock of sheep. Wouldn't do much in battle, just get in the way, I guess. And get things thrown at me. ;) You make a shepherd with lots of sheep and I'll make a fighter with proffession(siege engineer) and the rest will be LG history :cool:
GrahamWills 02-28-07, 10:35 AM	Buy whatever makes sense fro your character. A generic list of "items that under the games rules are most combat effective per gold piece" is reasonable, but please at least think a little about roleplaying. My dwarf's first purchases were a masterwork axe, shield and armor, because otherwise you look common (mom said "clothes maketh the dwarf"). His second purchase will be a small house in Irondelve for his mom to live in, because children should always look after their parents (that's what mom says). Napoleon's first purchase was noble clothing. No point looking shabby. My wood elf monk first bought (it looks like ... so long ago ...) winter clothing. Must have been cold that first adventure. Sure tanglefoot bags are awesome rule-wise, and a guard dog is per-gold-piece effective, but would your barbarian really toss an alchemical net -- sounds wussy to me -- and do you really want to spend an hour a day (not in the rules, just in roleplay) looking after a dog, getting it housed at inns, feeding it and all that hassle? My answer to "what would I expect a character to own at APL X" would be that I would expect that what they own fits their character. If your character is a killing machine, then you should be *embarrased* not to have the best weapon in your party. If you are a flamboyant, talky character, dress well! If you are a careful type, where's your vest ofresistance? This is not to dis a list of rules-useful stuff. There's no point buying useless things. It's more of another filter to put on your list. Think first what would your character buy, second what would you (the player) buy.
Crazy Boro 02-28-07, 12:15 PM	You make a shepherd with lots of sheep and I'll make a fighter with proffession(siege engineer) and the rest will be LG history :cool: Atleast it isn't cattle. I still wonder if that one pc I met a couple of years back still has to go around with all those damn cows. Quite an entertaining curse...
Mommy was an Orc 02-28-07, 01:40 PM	One of the big changes of the new LGCS is that you no longer have to wait until your 1st AR to buy items you have access to - if you want to buy a couple scrolls of CLW, you're able to do that.
UMiskatonic 02-28-07, 04:30 PM	Ooh, good catch. That was always a drag, having 5 hp and being without a CLW potion. The low level wands are a nice thing to aspire to. A wand of magic missiles is a real tide-turner at APL 2.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-01-07, 01:57 AM	You make a shepherd with lots of sheep and I'll make a fighter with proffession(siege engineer) and the rest will be LG history :cool: If I ever make it down south, I'm definetly up for it. Sounds like battle interactive material at it's finest! Somehow whenever playing settlers of Cattan, I always envisioned the sheep port nothing more that a giant sheepapult by which you launch them into the sea. Then, you find some wheat/ore/etc! Huzzah!
LGMoses 03-01-07, 09:08 AM	Someone tell Iuz the sheepapult is coming
kenobi65 03-01-07, 12:23 PM	Somehow whenever playing settlers of Cattan, I always envisioned the sheep port nothing more that a giant sheepapult by which you launch them into the sea. Then, you find some wheat/ore/etc! Huzzah! I call the sheep port the "sheep-o-matic." Put sheep in, get bricks or ore out, and try to not think about it too much. :D
Reylance 03-01-07, 01:49 PM	I call the sheep port the "sheep-o-matic." Put sheep in, get bricks or ore out, and try to not think about it too much. :D Did anyone play the RPGA Paranoia classic adventure "Settlers of CTN?" Lots of bad things happened to sheep in there.
Mommy was an Orc 03-01-07, 02:41 PM	Guys, I don't think most people are planning to buy a sheep with their first AR or two...please try to keep on topic so the thread remains useful.
thorinXXX 03-02-07, 03:25 PM	Guys, I don't think most people are planning to buy a sheep with their first AR or two...please try to keep on topic so the thread remains useful. And if they do, do we really want to know what they do with them>:eek: :eek:
Mommy was an Orc 03-03-07, 05:01 PM	Another interesting item is Sharkskin Armor - for 85 gold, you get +3 AC, free spiked armor, and a mostly worthless extra. But it only weighs 15 lbs - pretty useful when you're encumbrance constrained or are a druid.
frupton 03-03-07, 05:34 PM	Lets just say the players who were somehow surviving without any gear now have to think things through a lot more lol. I would be one of those players who was somehow surving without much gear. I'm fairly new to LG, and have somehow made it with my Bard up to Level 6 without most of this stuff. I frankly just didn't know all the different sorts of things I should expect to run into. Having said that, this thread has been an eye opener for me. I'm going on a shopping trip now and stocking up on everything from tanglefoot to silvered and cold iron arrows to scroll of invis to antitoxin. The main expense is turning out to be the additional 2000 gp for the handy haversack to carry it all around in.
Gallaway 03-04-07, 10:23 PM	I would be one of those players who was somehow surving without much gear. I'm fairly new to LG, and have somehow made it with my Bard up to Level 6 without most of this stuff. I frankly just didn't know all the different sorts of things I should expect to run into. Having said that, this thread has been an eye opener for me. I'm going on a shopping trip now and stocking up on everything from tanglefoot to silvered and cold iron arrows to scroll of invis to antitoxin. The main expense is turning out to be the additional 2000 gp for the handy haversack to carry it all around in. It's actually a style thing. Some players like to be prepared for all occasions carrying a million different weapons potions and goods and chattles right down to a ladder. This style particularly suits players who like to preplan everything they do. Other people prefer to travel light relying on tactics and skill to handle unusual situations just carrying the basic essentials. This style suits players who are quick on their feet and think laterally. There is no right or wrong about it. Whether you take a ton of gear or not is purely a matter of playing style.
Mommy was an Orc 03-05-07, 11:23 AM	There is no right or wrong about it. Whether you take a ton of gear or not is purely a matter of playing style. Yes and no. You should know how you're planning to damage a flying creature as an example. It doesn't mean you need a potion of fly, but if the encounter is a flying creature with reach, what do you do in the combat? A caster might have an easy time of it, but I've seen an 8th level Fighter without a reach weapon, without a potion(or even Scroll) of Enlarge Person, and without a ranged weapon. Or let's say you run into something with DR X - how do you plan to overcome DR X - TWFighters without bonuses to damage often have major problems here, especially at higher level. Yes, that's often a build issue, but if you're wielding an adamantine weapon, having a weapon capsule filled with Quicksilver means you can deal with a lycanthrope as an example.
Cardinal Teplin 03-05-07, 01:15 PM	It is a style issue. Some folks may be convinced that their own style is more effective, but it's a far cry from that to going to saying that someone must do this or must do that. There is a fair range of responses here, from the easy to carry/purchase, to the lists that have everything you could wish for at a price you can't afford. Yes, I'd suggest that you consider a ranged weapon of some kind, but I've also played characters that didn't bother with anything more than a rock. I wouldn't get too fussed about getting everything from everyone's list, or even getting an 'optimum' list. The best list is the best for the character you want to play. My own group have a their own guidelines over at www.tassek.anang.com My suggestion - get a light source. It's amazing how many people forget, and the best sources in the PHB outperform low level spells by a considerable margin. My personal favourties are the bull-eye lantern and the everburning torch, but each to their own.
Mattastrophic 03-05-07, 04:53 PM	I would be one of those players who was somehow surving without much gear. I'm fairly new to LG, and have somehow made it with my Bard up to Level 6 without most of this stuff. I frankly just didn't know all the different sorts of things I should expect to run into. Don't worry. My Virtuoso is approaching 14th, and the only consumables he ever bought were two scrolls of See Invisibility. And he's doing juuuust fine. An important realization I made was that sometimes, there are things you just cannot do. So accept that and help the ones who can. A Rog13 buddy of mine still uses Aid Another against golems, for example. Why would he need to waste money on consumables, taking away from the money he could spend doing what he's supposed to? -Matt
kjenks 03-05-07, 10:13 PM	He's a level 13 character and the best combat tactic he can come up with against golems is Aid Another? That's just plain sad.
Japangirl 03-05-07, 10:26 PM	He's a level 13 character and the best combat tactic he can come up with against golems is Aid Another? That's just plain sad. Nope, that's about right for a rogue. What else should he be doing, exactly? Hitting for <less than DR>? Throwing useless alchemicals? Providing a flank and aiding the main fighter type for AC or to-hit are about what rogues can do against most constructs and elementals.
kjenks 03-05-07, 11:09 PM	A level 13 rogue could have 16 ranks in Use Magic Device, activating scrolls and wands more than half the time. The rogue has Open access to scrolls of Grease and Melf's Acid Arrow, both somewhat effective against golems. A scroll of Mount (25 gp) gives the golem something else to smash instead of a PC (at least for one round), and if the horse survives a hit and runs away, the golem wastes its only AoO on the stupid thing. Other scrolls would help the rogue's fighter buddies more than an Aid Another, like Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Displacement, Greater Invisibility. Heck, even Animate Rope could work (though the save DC is low). A tanglefoot bag costs 50 gp. "An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed." Aid Another? Just plain sad.
Japangirl 03-06-07, 12:03 AM	You assume a rogue has ranks in UMD, a huge skill investment since UMD also requires Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), and Decipher Script to max out/make effective. Rogue do get lots of skill points, but after taking into account the absolutely necessary ones, UMD often falls by the wayside as choices have to be made. Many rogues have a 14 Int, so a non-human rogue has 10 skill points a level, a human one has 11. All rogues need Tumble, Disable Device, Search, and Open Lock, so down to 6/7 left. To get the synergy to Tumble, a rogue needs 5 ranks in Jump as well. If you are a face rogue, you need Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and probably five ranks in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) so that's four more; a scout rogue needs Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen so that's four. Want to do both? Sorry, you're out of skills now. Want to be a really good scout? Take Climb, Balance, and Jump to make sure you get into funky places. Want Knowledge (local) so you at least know a little bit about your area? Good luck with your secondary roles eating up the skills. Forgery, Sleight of Hand, and other fun uniquely rogueish skills? They have to come from somewhere. My rogue is only sort of roguey, but even if I were building a straight 16 rogue I wouldn't take the UMD route. There are too many other things I want my character to do and the consumables get hellishly expensive after awhile. It's a valid character option, and a good one at that, but it is merely one of several options for rogues. Tanglefoot bags are great. One round later, now what does the rogue do? And what does the rogue do against Huge or larger constructs (easily possible at APL 12/14)?
kjenks 03-06-07, 12:30 AM	So, the sad sack 13th level rogue didn't bother with UMD? Feh. Potion of Enlarge Person then trip and/or entangle the golem... SRD === Bolas: You can use this weapon to make a ranged trip attack against an opponent. You can’t be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a set of bolas. ... Chain, Spiked: A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped. ... Guisarme: A guisarme has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe. You can also use it to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the guisarme to avoid being tripped. ... Net: A net is used to entangle enemies. When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net’s maximum range is 10 feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell. An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action). A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you. A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a nonproficient one to do so. === Come on, folks. Expect more out of a 13th level character. I do. Aid Another indeed.
Japangirl 03-06-07, 12:50 AM	I always thought giving a fighter a +4 to hit at risk of life and limb was enough. *shrug*. But then, apparently my rogue is also pathetic since at 12th, that was what she did against all constructs and elementals. Tripping with a halfling or enlarging a halfling never struck me as good ideas, though I do not know what race this 13th rogue we are discussing is. Rogues are inherently limited in combat ability. It sucks, but there it is. If it's not sneak-attackable, it may not be worth it to invest resources to try to overcome the fatal flaw of rogues but instead invest in resources to maximize damage potential in situations that one can actually do damage. Tanglefoot bags aren't expensive and are an excellent idea, to a point. But other than that, it requires a huge investment of skills and money to do a little when those skills and gold could be invested into becoming a humanoid/animal/outsider/aberration/anything-with-discernable-anatomy killer. All rogues do not need to be UMD monkeys, just as all fighters don't have to be power-attacking shock troopers or all wizards evokers.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-06-07, 12:50 AM	So, the sad sack 13th level rogue didn't bother with UMD? Feh. I'm not so sure that UMD is one of those things I expect every rogue to have. This is kinda like saying, "Oh, your specialist banned necromancy so now he can't cast false life? That's terrible." I agree that you should know what you can do in every situation, but I don't think relying on UMD is the only answer here. Nor is blatently insulting every rogue type who didn't take UMD. I've only started thinking on this, but all your suggestions... meh. An enlarged 12 Str halfling rogue has a trip check of +2 vs. +13 for an iron golem. The net's a good idea, but entangled is entangled, thus no good against a tanglefooted golem. The bolas would shrink when thrown, so I'm not sure what size it'd follow with the trip check. I don't think aid another's the worst option, especially if it provides a flank as well. There has to be some other options though. Bag of tricks? Oil as a poor man's grease? Smokestick? Highly dependant on situation. Nothing which completely outshines aid another.
Mommy was an Orc 03-06-07, 01:22 AM	An enlarged 12 Str halfling rogue has a trip check of +2 vs. +13 for an iron golem. You do realize that if you have Quickdraw, Combat Acrobat, or any other of a number of 'I don't care if I'm prone' feats/abilities, odds are if you're an ITWF Rogue, you'll nail that trip check every other round or so. Giving your buddy +2 above an aid another and a free swing. Japangirl, the flank is effectively free - your action, assuming he converts the +2 Aid into Power Attack and hits all 4 times is worth 16 hp of damage per round. That's just awful. You've gotta be able to contribute more than your level in hp damage per round. Bane Weapons, scarabs of golembane, a level in Wizard + Unseen Seer 2(this is now the easiest to get...), etc...
kjenks 03-06-07, 01:29 AM	If the best you can do is flank and Aid Another, you're not trying very hard. Maybe that's okay for you. Maybe the other characters at the table can pick up the slack. Maybe the other players will forgive you because you're so good at... whatever it is that halfling rogues are good at in melee. I forget. My point is that a rogue oughta have SOMETHING useful to do against a golem or other creature that can't be snuck, especially by level 13. If you can't hurt the critter, buff up the party, summon some speed bumps, light up a smokestick -- SOMETHING. If you can't do that effectively at level 13, well, you get 8 more skill points at level 14 that you can invest in UMD and eight more at level 15, giving you a decent chance to activate most cheap expendibles. If you've got a halfling rogue who can't do didly in this kind of combat, well, what can I say? That's almost as pathetic as a wizard who threw away one or two entire schools of magic for a few more spell slots. I expect better. (Specialists give up a big chunk of the wizard's primary quality: flexibililty in spellcasting. If you want more spell slots, be a sorcerer. If you're gonna be a wizard, be ALL of a wizard, not six-eights of a wizard.) Yes, I know I have high expectations, and yes, I know that your character may not live up to them. Have fun and don't worry about me. But don't get bent out of shape if I look down on a character that's useless in a common high-level melee situation.
Samwise 03-06-07, 01:32 AM	The phrase I would take exception with is: Why would he need to waste money on consumables, taking away from the money he could spend doing what he's supposed to? My response is: "Well why would I need to waste money or consumables so you can do what you are supposed to, taking away from the money I could doing what I am supposed to do? In fact, why would I need to waste spell slots on you doing what you are supposed to do when I could use them doing I am supposed to do?" I've spent a considerable amount of gold on wands that I use with abandon. But every charge spent on someone else is a charge not spent on me, and that is gold not spent on me doing anything but serving as a gold reserve to buff or heal someone else. Perhaps the wizard would prefer memorizing orb of force so he can get in on the action rather than greater invisibility so the rogue can go running about. Or maybe he prefers his own fireball to another haste for everyone else. Of course if you really want those spells, you could just buy scrolls and ask the wizard to cast them for you. Or you could purchase other consumables for another PC to use rather than burning his own. Everyone at the table should be purchasing consumables, and not expect someone else to have that whatever the group needs, but you have more important things to spend your money on. If you want it enough to ask someone else for it, then you want it enough to spend money on it.
Mommy was an Orc 03-06-07, 08:32 AM	That's almost as pathetic as a wizard who threw away one or two entire schools of magic for a few more spell slots. I expect better. (Specialists give up a big chunk of the wizard's primary quality: flexibililty in spellcasting. If you want more spell slots, be a sorcerer. If you're gonna be a wizard, be ALL of a wizard, not six-eights of a wizard.) Depends on what you call flexibility. The more slots you have, the easier it is to leave them open or to pick a spell that is helpful a lot of the time, but not always. You don't always have the luxury of sitting down for 15 minutes. And UMD is a class skill for Loremasters.
Cardinal Teplin 03-06-07, 08:59 AM	Really? The bit I take exception to is: Yes, I know I have high expectations, and yes, I know that your character may not live up to them. Have fun and don't worry about me. But don't get bent out of shape if I look down on a character that's useless in a common high-level melee situation. Ken's expectations are not 'high'. They are specific. Specific to him and his style of play. People who do not play the way Ken thinks they should be are not failing to meet 'high expectations', they're playing in a different style. I used to play in a party with a very high damage low AC Warrior. Most things would go down within about two rounds if we spent all our actions buffing him, healing him, and luring the monsters into the right places to give him full attacks. We didn't, and he used to tell us we weren't meeting his 'high expectations' too. Yes, if everyone follows the same coherent strategy, you get better results. Time spend on coordinating tactics is time well spent. Browbeating everyone into following your own style of play is often counterproductive, leading to less cooperative play, fewer possible tactics to choose from, and people playing sub-optimally because they're being shoehorned into an unfamiliar play style. Incidently, I play a specialist wizard. Rather than start yet another endless thread about whether a specialist is better or worse than a generalist, I'd simply suggest that it depends very much on how you play the character, and even more on how those around you play theirs.
JamesMaissen 03-06-07, 09:07 AM	Depends on what you call flexibility. The more slots you have, the easier it is to leave them open or to pick a spell that is helpful a lot of the time, but not always. You don't always have the luxury of sitting down for 15 minutes. And UMD is a class skill for Loremasters. First, there are different thoughts on specialists vs generalist wizards. Personally I'm in the later camp myself, but that's me. What I think it boils down to is attitude. If your attitude is that 'I can't handle this' then giving up schools of magic is just adding to the list of what you can't handle with your character. If you take a proactive look at how to handle and minimize shortcomings then you can make it a reasonable tradeoff. But that's the core of the problem that is typified by those ignoring consumables and other 'adventuring tools'. Such tools augment what you can do and give you options. You might not need all those options, they may never come up and when they do you could coast on others for them. But if you want to fully pull your wieght then bringing along your share of them is what is required. As to roleplaying that is of course something to consider. However do FULLY consider it. If you were putting your life on the line day in and day out wouldn't you want to hedge bets and have things for emergencies? Lastly I think that the original point of this thread is a very good one. Most people don't fully equip their characters. This is exaserbated at low levels by many factors. Having a list of things to choose from and the problems that they solve allow newer players (and older ones) the ability to consciously choose to be prepared for things. How can that be a bad thing? -James
Lord Toast 03-06-07, 10:29 AM	James, thanks for pointing us back into the right direction. This is about the first few AR's and what to spend your gold on, not about mage class features nor what should my rogue do in this combat situation. I enjoy reading those post though, so please move them to a new thread. As for what to spend you characters gold on lets assume we are talking about the first four AR's. Does anyone have any more recommendations?
kjenks 03-06-07, 11:00 AM	I'll echo Vanadium's call for extra spell component pouches and holy symbols. These are so easy to sunder and disarm that any spellcaster should have a spare. And if you're not a spellcaster, they're cheap and occasionally useful. But be careful which holy symbols you wave about in the Bandit Kingdoms. Each one of them will get somebody mad at you.
Timlagor 03-06-07, 12:19 PM	Non-casters should invest in consummables to overcome all sorts of DR that They can (silver, magic, good, cold iron, fire+oil). Failing to do so is most definitely failure rather than style imo. (if you're character is rather thick then you could claim that failure is a roleplaying choice which is fair enough from a player perspective but it's still failure for the PC and will be treated as such by supercilious elves ;)) Casters should back up their pouches and foci. They should also invest in some back up scrolls and some sort of ranged weapon (that's pre-AR1 really) so they have something useful to do in 'mop-up' phases that doesn't burn into important resources for the next combat. Everyone who wants to live should invest in some healing.
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 02:13 PM	I'll echo Vanadium's call for extra spell component pouches and holy symbols. These are so easy to sunder and disarm that any spellcaster should have a spare. Sundering spell components / foci is a pet peeve of mine. When a DM does that to a player, he's basically saying "Did you bring your six spares? No? HAHAHA USUCKNOOB!" The fact that a 5gp expenditure can completely negate the sunder/disarm makes the tactic only useful if a DM wants to "pwn nubs" who didn't bring extra. So I don't buy it. I stick with one pouch, and if I get screwed because of it someday, then oh well. -Matt has never had anything sundered or disarmed over any of his characters.
LGMoses 03-06-07, 02:19 PM	what is (by unit price) the cheapest way of getting cure light wounds? potions of cure light are 50 gp I believe scrolls are 25 how much is each charge of a cure light wand?
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 02:20 PM	They should also invest in some back up scrolls and some sort of ranged weapon (that's pre-AR1 really) so they have something useful to do in 'mop-up' phases that doesn't burn into important resources for the next combat. Pearls I are very good for that. You can also Delay until right before the leftover monsters go and then if they're still up take them out. Myself, if I run into a mook combat that very quickly is reigned in and under control (i.e. Freezing Fog, Evard's, Summoned monsters doing their thing, etc.) I won't even waste my Pearls. -Matt enjoys having 12 Lesser Cold Orbs/Rays of Enfeeblement for the proper occasions.
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 02:29 PM	If you've got a halfling rogue who can't do didly in this kind of combat, well, what can I say? That's almost as pathetic as a wizard who threw away one or two entire schools of magic for a few more spell slots. I expect better. What it really comes down to is teamwork. Your "expectations" imply that we all should be able to do every encounter, both combat and non-combat. When you're in a balanced party, that isn't true. Instead of nerfing your wealth by purchasing cosumables for situations that may never come up, I believe in being the best you can be at what you're built to do, and have the ability to know when to step aside and let Mr. Super Undead Slayer handle the undead, for instance. You'll waste tons and tons of money by always trying to be "useful," and you'll also steal screen time from the Undead Slayer. "Know Your Role" is one of the most important lessons I learned in my time in this campaign. And before anyone brings up "But I never know who I'll play with:" You meet people at cons. You'll also meet people you like to run with and people you'd like to run with again. So you get their contact info, and next con you coordinate slot selection. Preplan your slots. Know who you're running with before going to the con. Then take a look at your prospective teammates and then spot your strengths and weaknesses, and plan accordingly, be it buying consumables or memorizing certain spells. It's a lot more effective than preplanning for everything, as obviously, six characters who are focused are much more powerful than six generalists. -The rogue in my example, when a golem comes up, tells Matt to take it away, and I always do.
kenobi65 03-06-07, 02:46 PM	what is (by unit price) the cheapest way of getting cure light wounds? potions of cure light are 50 gp I believe scrolls are 25 how much is each charge of a cure light wand? Wand is most efficient by far. 750gp / 50 charges = 15gp per charge.
kenobi65 03-06-07, 02:49 PM	And before anyone brings up "But I never know who I'll play with:" You meet people at cons. You'll also meet people you like to run with and people you'd like to run with again. So you get their contact info, and next con you coordinate slot selection. Certainly worth trying to do, Matt, but you *know* it doesn't always work that way. The marshal may have to split your pre-mustered table up so that two tables can go off, you may be going to a con where you don't know anyone, etc.
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 02:56 PM	Certainly worth trying to do, Matt, but you *know* it doesn't always work that way. The marshal may have to split your pre-mustered table up so that two tables can go off, you may be going to a con where you don't know anyone, etc. It's worked very often for myself, and the few times it hasn't definitely don't warrant nerfing myself with consumables. Also, if you're headed off by yourself, in the age of Warhorn, you can often sense those disturbances in the Force before you even sign up for your slots. Push comes to shove, you can even sit down at the disturbing table, evalute the situation, then purchase a few consumables based on what you have in front of you, instead of dumping your cash way beforehand. Example: "Oh crap, we're low on healing... I think I'll purchase a fresh CLW wand today..." Another problem to worry about: If you bring lots of cosumables for every situation, often you'll find yourself looking for chances to use them. And you'll also discover that you're the only guy with a catalog of consumables, so you'll constantly spend money by trying to cover for everyone else, instead of trusting that everyone else will do their jobs. And what's the worst that can happen if YOU don't ALWAYS carry Situational Item X? You sit out an encounter and think to yourself "I could have bought X, but instead I bought Y, which I use every encounter." That Lesser Maximize rod I bought, for example, is way more effective than 14K worth of situational items spread out over an entire adventuring career. To close the tangent, though: It's a question of styles of play. Anyone's list of "What to Buy With Your First Few ARs of Gold" should include a disclaimer saying that you won't die horrible deaths because you didn't follow this list. And kjenk's list of expectations is so radically different from actually happens in Living Greyhawk that it's not even funny. -Matt knows his style of play isn't for everyone. I mean, 10 Con characters?!? What was he thinking?!?
LGMoses 03-06-07, 02:59 PM	Blessed are those that bring potions of cure light for the entire party. and whats up kenobi, haven't noticed ne of ur posts in a while. -Matt knows his style of play isn't for everyone. I mean, 10 Con characters?!? What was he thinking?!? lol, i've got a homegame wizard made on LG pointbuy with 8 con. Bringing LG to our community made the point buy system much more popular.
kenobi65 03-06-07, 03:05 PM	It's worked very often for myself, and the few times it hasn't definitely don't warrant nerfing myself with consumables. Well, if you know you'll be playing at a well-balanced table 95% of the time, then, yeah, you're probably correct. If you find yourself frequently sitting at a table with 5 other players you've never played with before, and have, more than once, been in a "dang, I wish *somebody* at this table had [item X]" situation, then I'm not sure it's a great strategy. YMMV.
kenobi65 03-06-07, 03:07 PM	and whats up kenobi, haven't noticed ne of ur posts in a while. Hey, dude. Eh, I've been around, just a bit quiet, I suppose. Work's a wee bit nutty of late.
Japangirl 03-06-07, 03:21 PM	What does YMMV stand for, kenobi? I keep seeing people use that expression and it's been driving me crazy.
kenobi65 03-06-07, 03:30 PM	What does YMMV stand for, kenobi? I keep seeing people use that expression and it's been driving me crazy. Your Mileage May Vary. A common disclaimer in U.S. auto ads; more broadly, it winds up meaning, "that's my experience, I have no idea if it'll work for you."
Japangirl 03-06-07, 03:32 PM	Your Mileage May Vary. A common disclaimer in U.S. auto ads; more broadly, it winds up meaning, "that's my experience, I have no idea if it'll work for you." Ah. From the context I figured it meant something of the sort, I just had no clue what the actual phrase was. Thanks.
kjenks 03-06-07, 03:32 PM	Wand is most efficient by far. 750gp / 50 charges = 15gp per charge. If you have the time to wander around town, NPC spellcasting costs only 10 gp per CLW and is available in towns of every size. LGCS 597, page 16.
kenobi65 03-06-07, 03:33 PM	If you have the time to wander around town, NPC spellcasting costs only 10 gp per CLW and is available in towns of every size. LGCS 597, page 16. True; in circumstances where it's feasible, it's the cheapest. OTOH, NPC clerics are notoriously non-portable into dungeon environments. ;)
Rerednaw 03-06-07, 03:34 PM	...If you are a careful type, where's your vest ofresistance? This is not to dis a list of rules-useful stuff. There's no point buying useless things. It's more of another filter to put on your list. Think first what would your character buy, second what would you (the player) buy. I seen several references to a vest of resistance. Which book is this item from?
kenobi65 03-06-07, 03:36 PM	I seen several references to a vest of resistance. Which book is this item from? Complete Arcane. Functions as (and is priced the same as) a cloak of resistance, but takes up the far-less-popular vest/vestment/shirt slot on the body.
Cardinal Teplin 03-06-07, 04:27 PM	For healing, a potion is useful because it can be used by someone who isn't a spellcaster to bring someone else, say a cleric, back up to consciousness. A scroll is good because they are comparatively easy to UMD, and cheaper than potions A wand is good because it's the cheapest of all, at 15gp a charge. Cure light is the easiest to find, but lesser vigour is better for out-of-combat healing. Pearl of power 1 is good because, although it costs 1000gp, it can be used every day. It's also a good buy if you reckon other spell casters will have 1st level spells you want cast on you, but may not have the spells to do it. I've already mentioned my favourite - the bull's-eye lantern. I'd also recommend chalk. It's cheap, and it's darned handy. Bringing extra food is also worthwhile. It's about the most universal form of NPC bribery in the game, and you'll meet more hungry NPCs than ones who will accept gold. I'd also recommend oil and tindertwigs - for those times when you really need to set something on fire, and nothing else will do. Many DMs are surprisingly stingy about the effects of fire spells in actually starting fires.
lseelba 06-06-07, 03:22 AM	Thank you for this thread. I just got my first AR with my Level 1 Druid (only LG character I have), and I'm buying Sharkskin Armor, good barding for my riding dog, and scribing a bunch of scrolls. I still have some gold left over that I'll probably buy some random consumables with. Lou
kjenks 06-06-07, 06:30 AM	Well, since you've resurrected this old thread, I guess I do have something new to add. I've collected all of the Open items from the LGCS in one place, with descriptions. My list includes sharkskin armor and the rest of the gear that you can buy. I think of it as an on-line catalog for LG characters. http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/
lseelba 06-06-07, 11:44 AM	Well, since you've resurrected this old thread, I guess I do have something new to add. I've collected all of the Open items from the LGCS in one place, with descriptions. My list includes sharkskin armor and the rest of the gear that you can buy. I think of it as an on-line catalog for LG characters. http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/ Let me be the first to thank you wholeheartedly! Also, does anyone know if dragonhide armor is open access?
kenobi65 06-06-07, 11:52 AM	Also, does anyone know if dragonhide armor is open access? I don't believe so. It's listed in the DMG as a "specific armor", and thus, isn't on the "open item" list on p. 26 of the LGCS.
kjenks 06-06-07, 12:44 PM	But if you're a druid (and why else would you be intereted in dragonhide armor?), there are some mighty fine medium armors for you (chitin, living coral) -- and one new contender in the heavy armor category (stone plate). And hide shields rock, no matter what class you are.
lseelba 06-06-07, 02:44 PM	But if you're a druid (and why else would you be intereted in dragonhide armor?), there are some mighty fine medium armors for you (chitin, living coral) -- and one new contender in the heavy armor category (stone plate). And hide shields rock, no matter what class you are. I'm glad you mentioned hide shield. After reading your list it immediately popped out at me, but I assumed it required Tower Shield Proficiency to use. Are you saying anyone can use it?
bitznarf 06-06-07, 02:57 PM	Anyone with Shield Proficiency can use it, Tower Shield Proficiency is not needed.
lseelba 06-06-07, 03:02 PM	Anyone with Shield Proficiency can use it, Tower Shield Proficiency is not needed. Wow...my squishy druid enjoys this information!
bitznarf 06-06-07, 03:06 PM	My squishy cavalry druid can't afford the -1 penalty to attack yet.
Mommy was an Orc 06-06-07, 03:06 PM	Well, since you've resurrected this old thread, I guess I do have something new to add. It is attached to my LG Compilation, so a lot of newer people might see it even it isn't apparent why. I've collected all of the Open items from the LGCS in one place, with descriptions. My list includes sharkskin armor and the rest of the gear that you can buy. I think of it as an on-line catalog for LG characters. http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/ Hadn't realized it wasn't listed yet(the open spells one was), but it is now also part of the Compilation.
kjenks 06-06-07, 03:08 PM	I've had great fun with a hide shield. It's terrific when opening a door: "I take cover behind my hide shield and I open the door." It's saved me from both traps and monsters. I presume that the FAQ entry about tower shields also applies to using a hide shield for total cover.
kjenks 06-06-07, 11:13 PM	My squishy cavalry druid can't afford the -1 penalty to attack yet. My druid cav guy uses a hide shield for total cover after making a mounted charge so that he can withdraw from combat, even against an opponent with reach. This helps if I can't do a Ride-by Attack due to terrain or whatever.
GreatSiron 06-07-07, 01:34 AM	So, the sad sack 13th level rogue didn't bother with UMD? Feh. Some rogues have prestige classes with high skill requirements (I have thief-acrobat and soon to be Exemplar), and some of us multi-class (I have a ranger lvl, about to take a second one). That combined with my desire to be able to hide and move silently, and most of my skill points are gone. I'd love to have UMD, but the fact is I just can't find the points at the moment. And in combat I do something else, I combat expertise and take blows someone else might take. (And trust me, several times my parties have thanked me for this, as I often off tank something while the party deals with the rest of the encounter).
kjenks 06-07-07, 09:01 AM	I apologize for diverting this thread earlier into my rants against characters who choose to be useless in common combat situations. I agree with James "that the original point of this thread is a very good one. Most people don't fully equip their characters." That discussion is far more important than my temper tantrums, so let's not derail the thread further. I'd love to rant about useless characters in more detail -- in another thread.
Mommy was an Orc 06-07-07, 09:12 AM	edit removed
GreatSiron 06-07-07, 12:56 PM	Well, now that I have that out of my system, I guess I can say what I buy with my first few AR's. All of my characters get potions or scrolls of lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness, and protection from evil. There just isn't any reason not to, (save a dwarven fighter saving up from battle plate) and they can save your bacon. For fighter types, I normally buy a couple of potions of CLW (since I can never count on anyone being able to use a wand; I think I may have played with a cleric at 3 of my last 7 tables). I also buy a cold iron reach weapon (usually a glave) a silver piercing weapon (usually a trident), and a heavy flail. This is because my main weapon is usually a slashing weapon, except for my upcoming charger, who will get a CI longsword and a Silver Flail. They also get a few alchemist fires for swarms. (They don't bother with escape routes, as I play fighters rather sucidally). For caster types, my first AR's of gold are usually spent buying scrolls to deal with common problems, like running away or invisible creatures. My druid purchased a scroll of obsucring mist, and a scroll of fairy fire, in addition to a wand of CLW. (For healing the party). Subsitute see invisblity or glitterdust in for fairy fire if your a cleric-type or an arcane caster. My rogue spent most of his early gold on a MW theives tools and alchemicals (he still spends much of his gold on alchemicals, as well as potions of lesser restoration when everyone else forgets to bring them). With a bard I would do the same as an arcane caster once they get the ablity to use magic, and to buy some alchemicals, like alchemist fire and holy water as well. (I don't do this with a cleric or wizard because they can use scrolls than have more of an effect). That's what I do with my characters first few AR's. Do I expect others to do it? Nope, in fact I usually expect the opposite.
Vanadium 06-21-07, 01:33 PM	Okay, I found some time, so I went and overhauled the information in the first post, cleaning it up with sblocks. If I forgot something in the transition or I never had it, let me know. Same goes if something is there that really shouldn't be as well.