Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kelez 12-28-05, 09:57 AM	I know I really really want a catfolk. I mean, I could have a Paladin that looks like a Tiger and everything!! The Plate Mail too.
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 02:19 PM	There are no catfolk in Greyhawk canon, as far as I know. The Asheratis are bad enough. If there were in, then (as someone stated on another one of these boards) they should be lethargic and near comatose 18 hours a day.
Arvagor 12-30-05, 05:53 PM	There are no catfolk in Greyhawk canon, as far as I know. The Asheratis are bad enough.Nor were many other creatures that appear in the newer WotC material, yet they have shown up in LG mods nonetheless (I've seen, for example, nightwalkers and phasms in Core Mods, and even uglier stuff in regionals - can anybody say necromental?) Just because Gygax didn't write about it, doesn't mean it can't exist in Living Greyhawk, and the background the Circle has given the Asherati (to use your example) seems entirely plausible given the inhospitable nature of the Bright Lands, and the reluctance for much travel and exploration there by the people who write the (Flanaess) history books. Catfolk could easily exist in LG; their "home" would likely be in the more unexplored (read, not many modules set there) western areas of the Flanaess, someplace with open plains, and a savannah-like climate. Therefore, they'd be ideally suited for life in the Plains of the Paynims, or even farther west -- we've obviously never heard of them (much), because a few would only now be making the occasional trek to "our" part of Oerth. That being said, if the Circle hasn't found some way to add them to the campaign by now (since Races of the Wild has been out for a while), then I doubt you'll be seeing them as a player race any time soon (if at all)...
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 07:05 PM	Living[/I] Greyhawk, and the background the Circle has given the Asherati (to use your example) seems entirely plausible given the inhospitable nature of the Bright Lands, and the reluctance for much travel and exploration there by the people who write the (Flanaess) history books. I don't mind new stuff, I mind having the old stuff changed. Rary the Traitor (WGR3) obviously did not have an entirely new race in it, that even the DMs reading it didn't know about. However, in Living Greyhawk the Asheratis just hid under the sand until 595 CY at which time they popped up and started travelling all over Oerth. IMHO, this was a blatant marketing ploy. The Centaurs were fine - they already had a presence in canon.
SteveMND 12-30-05, 08:50 PM	"IMHO, this was a blatant marketing ploy. " ...? Well, yeah it was marketing -- the RPGA exists to promote WotC-produced games, after all. At least the campaign admins were able to find something reasonably fun (IMHO) to add to LG in the process. Steve M who reminds people that LG is no more 'canon' in that sense than your home game set in Greyhawk is; they just have the added benefit of having WotC's permission to use their IP as a shared campaign.
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 09:36 PM	Steve M who reminds people that LG is no more 'canon' in that sense than your home game set in Greyhawk is; they just have the added benefit of having WotC's permission to use their IP as a shared campaign. Um, no. As Eric Mona stated when the campaign started up: "Canon is defined as the published material that is accepted "as true." For your home campaign, the issue of canon is only as relevant as you want it to be -- the books might say that the Yeomanry is a sort of proto-democracy, but if you want to make it an elven kingdom filled with dragon riders, that's ok. If, however, you're writing a product for WotC, you've got to know what is accepted as true, and what isn't... ...It becomes somewhat more important when we're dealing with a huge national campaign like Living Greyhawk. Living Greyhawk will be the official Organized Play campaign for 3rd Edition D&D, and as such, we'd like everyone who comes to the table to know what is meant when a player says "my character comes from the Yeomanry." http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Greyhawk/message/5443 Waytoomuchcoffee who reminds The Circle that they may want to re-read the guidelines that were set down originally.
Samwise 12-30-05, 10:09 PM	Ummm . . . yes. First, what Steve said is the same as what Erik said, as far as IP issues go. LG material is canon for LG. It is not, nor, because of a number of decisions and changes WotC has made, can be, canon for the GH setting IP in the future. Erik was speaking about the starting point of the campaign at its start, while Steve described the situation with the campaign going full stream. But both statements are describing the same thing. Second, neither of those precludes the possibility of adding to the canon. Dozens of monsters were added to the setting when the Fiend Folio and Monster Manual II were published AD&D 1st edition. Even a number of races and character (base) classes were added with Unearthed Arcana. So the Circle is in no way ignoring the guidelines originally given. Third, just as canon evolves, guidelines change. The campaign can not function now under the premises it did in 2000. It couldn't even function under all of them when it premiered! Fortunately the people working on it at various levels were able to adapt fast enough to keep it going, and growing to where it is now.
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 10:12 PM	Catfolk could easily exist in LG; their "home" would likely be in the more unexplored (read, not many modules set there) western areas of the Flanaess, someplace with open plains, and a savannah-like climate. Therefore, they'd be ideally suited for life in the Plains of the Paynims, or even farther west -- we've obviously never heard of them (much), because a few would only now be making the occasional trek to "our" part of Oerth. Well, that would be much more palatable. Doesn't have to be Flanaess however, Oerth is a big place. http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/files/tsroerth.gif
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 10:17 PM	Samwise, what am I missing here? Steve said that "LG is no more 'canon' in that sense than your home game set in Greyhawk is", and Eric Mona stated pretty clearly that this ISN'T a home game in respect to canon. Hell, he went so far as to *contrast* it with a home game. You must be reading a different post from me.
Samwise 12-30-05, 10:32 PM	Samwise, what am I missing here? Steve said that "LG is no more 'canon' in that sense than your home game set in Greyhawk is", and Eric Mona stated pretty clearly that this ISN'T a home game in respect to canon. Hell, he went so far as to *contrast* it with a home game. You must be reading a different post from me. You are missing five years of campaign history and changes in RPGA purchasing policy. To try and summarize: The RPGA does not pay for regional and meta-regional adventures. They have no rights to use the material beyond making it available for two years of the campaign. The RPGA does pay a small fee for core adventures, but even that is only for limited distribution rights. Therefore, nothing done for LG is ever going to wind up being canon should WotC either revive the line or license it to some third party. However, Erik's post was in regards to the campaign at the start. In 2000, all there was to build on was what had been published. And that was what people were supposed to use, not material from various home campaigns that might contradict what was in those published books. Since that time, there has been five years of campaign development. A lot of things have happened in the campaign world, and it is very different from the one portrayed in the LGG. So to some extent, compared to whatever might be published in the future, LG is a huge home campaign, however strange that might sound.
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 10:56 PM	I never talked about LG material being put into the Greyhawk canon. I have been talking about the Greyhawk canon being used in LG, and how it isn't just a home game. I provided a post from one of the campaign developers to back me up. You seem to be talking about something completely different. If you have a post too, please feel free to link it.
Samwise 12-30-05, 11:16 PM	I never talked about LG material being put into the Greyhawk canon. I have been talking about the Greyhawk canon being used in LG, and how it isn't just a home game. I provided a post from one of the campaign developers to back me up. You seem to be talking about something completely different. If you have a post too, please feel free to link it. And I already said, the GH canon being used in LG does not preclude the expansion of that canon. Numerous things not mentioned or elaborated on in the LGG or other books have been created for the LG campaign. The setting is markedly different from what is presented in the LGG, and will become even more different as time progesses. As such, that makes LG a home campaign by the definition of what is canon. As for posts by one of the campaign developers, check these forums. There are hundreds of posts by other campaign developers to back me up, too many to try and cite. You could also try going to one of the Triad regional websites and seeing how much has been added. Or just go to the RPGA section of the WotC website and see how much has been added. The game has changed since 1999 when it was set up, and 2000 when it premiered.
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 11:27 PM	As for posts by one of the campaign developers, check these forums. There are hundreds of posts by other campaign developers to back me up, too many to try and cite. How about one? That refutes the post I have, of course. And keeps to the original topic, which is that LG is different from a home game with respect of the canon.
Samwise 12-30-05, 11:36 PM	How about one? That refutes the post I have, of course. Can I use this one? "What SteveMND said is right. Having been involved with the campaign from the beginning, including current contacts with Erik Mona, his statement about LG effectively being a home campaign from the point of view of WotC canon is functionally correct." Sam Weiss founding Keoland Triad and POC 12/99-7/02 currently Core Editor
waytoomuchcoffee 12-30-05, 11:40 PM	Oh please.
SteveMND 01-01-06, 03:44 PM	Wow, I see the conversation has taken a life of its own since I last posted. :) Although Sam very nicely summed up my points, let me elaborate a little further on my thoughts. LG is its own entity, largely self-contained. Due to various reasons (the least of which being that WotC in fact does not own nor is not allowed to reprint most of what's written for LG beyond a its existence as an RPGA module), what is created about the Greyhawk setting for LG is not part of "official Greyhawk canon" as WotC sees it. I know many die-hard Greyhawkers hate it when I say this, but Greyhawk is by and large a dead campaign setting as far as WotC is concerned. Two years ago, one of the WotC marketing execs referred to Greyhawk as a "legacy setting." Those familiar with computer terms should realize the implications of that statement. Yes, the setting names, a few locations, and some of the vague background are used as the 'default" D&D 3rd edition setting, but that hardly means it is still an active setting according to WotC. And it is this very 'retirement' of the setting that (IMHO) allowed them to give such unbridled freedom to the administrators of the LG campaign when designing the LG Greyhawk world. And make no mistake about it, there is a vast amount of material about the Greyhawk world that was created out of whole cloth by the LG folks; that was a necessity. One of the strengths of the GH setting was that so much of it was left undecided and 'blank;' this was so that the individual DMs could customize the setting to their own views of what would make a fun campaign for their players. And LG is no different. The various regional Triads had to create five years worth of material for their regions, and in most cases, what was written previously on the areas in 'canon' was a bare fraction of what would be needed to keep hundreds of gamers in that region interested. And so, like home campaign, the people running the LG campaign and regions had to create new stuff. And, as stated earlier, the majority of this was written under contracts that basically said that WotC wouldn't/couldn't use this material outside of the limits of the module's run as a RPGA scenario. So, by definition, little if anything that was created for LG can be considered 'canon' for the setting. It is virtually identical to a home campaign in that regard. Barring something truly dramatic (like the IP getting sold to a third party or Erik Mona being instilled as President of Hasbro), Greyhawk as an active, supported setting is done. I seriously doubt we'll ever see any new 'canon' as a result. Oh please. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Sam here, Coffee. He's a better GH historian that probably the rest of the people on this board put together, and he was one of the people that was there at the beginning helping to create the LG campaign. How about one? That refutes the post I have, of course. If you are referring to the Erik Mona quote, you may want to reread that one, Coffee (and not just the part you reposted). Nowhere does Erik say that people in the LG campaign couldn't create new things -- just that they wanted a common baseline for the original triads back then to work off of, and that material would form what was the Living Greyhawk Gazateer.
Jesse Heinig 01-01-06, 07:10 PM	To answer the question posed by the original title, NO, I absolutely wouldn't want to see any catfolk in LG. I would not object to them being over in Green Regent, in the Forgotten Realms where the setting includes everything plus a gelatinous half-dragon fiendish kitchen sink. I play LG events to play a game that has the atmosphere of Lankhmar, Three Hearts and Three Lions, and Thieves' World. I don't play LG to play Jadeclaw.
JohnduBois 01-01-06, 07:54 PM	I would like to echo the sentiments of Jesse regarding a great big NO to wanting catfolk. Especially after seeing what kind of cheese the centaurs are causing, I'm against ANY races that require a level adjustment or monster class being let into the game. There are just too many variables that can't all be accounted for...
Puggle Halfwine 01-01-06, 10:10 PM	I would like to echo the sentiments of Jesse regarding a great big NO to wanting catfolk. Especially after seeing what kind of cheese the centaurs are causing, I'm against ANY races that require a level adjustment or monster class being let into the game. There are just too many variables that can't all be accounted for... That's fair enough, but I play a mounted character in LG. Yes, some modules I just break into little tiny pieces but there are some modules which say things like, "The PCs cannot bring mounts/animal companions." or "The PC's cannot charge in this area." They don't even say, 'This is difficult terrain' (The Halfling Outrider can charge in difficult terrain), but that you just cannot charge. The same is true of centaurs. Ladders? Manholes? Tightropes? Riding gryphons to get to the module? There are plenty of ways to stuff up centaurs and they often pay dearly for it. They're powerful when they're in their element, but if you'll permit me one pun, they're often a one trick pony.
boojumbunn 01-04-06, 08:06 PM	To heck with Catfolk, I want bunny-folk! And I woure prefer if they conformed to the stat requirementes and abilities of regular player character races so they don't need monster modifiers added! :D boojum the brown bunny (It's an addiction)
ca551u5 01-04-06, 09:09 PM	I don't mind new stuff, I mind having the old stuff changed. Rary the Traitor (WGR3) obviously did not have an entirely new race in it, that even the DMs reading it didn't know about. However, in Living Greyhawk the Asheratis just hid under the sand until 595 CY at which time they popped up and started travelling all over Oerth. IMHO, this was a blatant marketing ploy. The Centaurs were fine - they already had a presence in canon. Mate, if we're gonna talk about GH canon, I need to ask which one? You mention Rary the Traitor, I know more than a few people who'll be willing to lynch you for referring to it as canon, since its post GH-Wars.
waytoomuchcoffee 01-04-06, 10:24 PM	Mate, if we're gonna talk about GH canon, I need to ask which one? You mention Rary the Traitor, I know more than a few people who'll be willing to lynch you for referring to it as canon, since its post GH-Wars. Well, it is certainly canon, given what *used* to be the determining criteria. Which now, evidently, isn't used anymore. 1. Does it conflict with something that has already been published? 2. Does it show disdain for the setting? 3. Is it inappropriate to the tone of the setting? 4. Does it have anything, anything at all, to do with the Greyhawk campaign? 5. Does TSR/WotC own the material? In any case, Rary the Traitor was already incorporated whole hog into the LG Gazetteer. And the Bright Sands material. So it is canon for LG at least.
Arvagor 01-04-06, 10:30 PM	In any case, Rary the Traitor was already incorporated whole hog into the LG Gazetteer. And the Bright Sands material. So it is canon for LG at least.And according to the Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook, the Asherati were created on the day the Sulm Empire fell -- which means that too is now canon for LG...
ca551u5 01-04-06, 10:35 PM	Well, it is certainly canon, given what *used* to be the determining criteria. Which now, evidently, isn't used anymore. 1. Does it conflict with something that has already been published? 2. Does it show disdain for the setting? 3. Is it inappropriate to the tone of the setting? 4. Does it have anything, anything at all, to do with the Greyhawk campaign? 5. Does TSR/WotC own the material? In any case, Rary the Traitor was already incorporated whole hog into the LG Gazetteer. And the Bright Sands material. So it is canon for LG at least. On the matter of the Asherati, they lose only on point 1. And my point in the earlier post was that point 1 is a bad one to use for Greyhawk, because someone is always going to unhappy, give how divided the canon is.
Samwise 01-04-06, 10:42 PM	Well, it is certainly canon, given what *used* to be the determining criteria. Which now, evidently, isn't used anymore. 1. Does it conflict with something that has already been published? That's what people who don't like it say. 2. Does it show disdain for the setting? Again, that's what people who don't like it say. 3. Is it inappropriate to the tone of the setting? And that makes three strikes and it is out for those who reject it as canon. So it is canon for LG at least. Hence the concept of LG being the equivalent of a home campaign in terms of GH canon. There is much material that is canon for LG that is not canon for GH.
Arvagor 01-04-06, 10:46 PM	On the matter of the Asherati, they lose only on point 1. And my point in the earlier post was that point 1 is a bad one to use for Greyhawk, because someone is always going to unhappy, give how divided the canon is.My point is, tell my why they lose on that point... Just because they weren't mentioned in an older product, doesn't mean that they couldn't have been there the whole time...
Mortepierre 01-05-06, 05:04 AM	The WGR3 (Rary the Traitor) accessory makes it clear that Sulm's population was transformed through the curse of the Scorpion's Crown. That's what makes the story of folks such as Lord Falyn or Shemaya so dramatic. The fact that part of the population was retcon-saved to become Asherati diminishes rather than enhances that drama (IMHO anyway). That said, at least they went to the trouble of finding a logical explanation for the new race. It was better than just "dumping" it in the setting. But to come back to the point, the Bright Desert isn't so vast it can hide many different lifeforms. For an entire species to have existed undetected for hundred of years is almost unbelievable. The Desert Centaurs at the very least should have known about them.
Arvagor 01-05-06, 10:56 AM	But to come back to the point, the Bright Desert isn't so vast it can hide many different lifeforms. For an entire species to have existed undetected for hundred of years is almost unbelievable. The Desert Centaurs at the very least should have known about them.And again, if we're retconning, then there's nothing that says the desert centaurs didn't know about them ;) And are you so sure that they couldn't hide? Based on the maps I've seen (and specifically using that in the BoBS sourcebook), the desert portion(s) of the Bright Lands encompasses an area roughly the size of Colorado (a little over 100,000 sq. miles). You obviously can't use Colorado's current population (over 4,000,000 -- that's a modern figure, and Denver alone is 1/8 of that), but it does show how many people you can have in that size area and still not be "crowded" (try Wyoming instead -- it's area is only slightly less, and it's population is less than 500,000) . I hesitate to put much faith in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer population estimates also, as they seem unusually low ("Population: 26,500—Human 79% (Fsob), Dwarf 20% (hill), Other 1% (mostly centaurs)" -- that would mean there's less than 300 centaurs roaming the Bright Lands. Remember also that they (the Asherati) are a race that predominantly lives underground, with no trace of their cities aboveground; that would make it extremely difficult to estimate their true numbers... "By your own count, he killed fifteen thousand over two years while losing twice that number. You say the Sardaukar accounted for another twenty thousand, possibly a few more. And I've seen the transportation manifests for our return from Arrakis. If they killed twenty thousand, they lost almost five for one. Why don't you face the figures, Baron, and understand what they mean?" "This is your job, Mentat. What do they mean?" "I gave you Duncan Idaho's head count on the sietch he visited. It all fits. If they had just two hundred and fifty such communities, their population would be about five million. My best estimate is that they had at least twice that many communites. You scatter your population on such a planet." "Ten million?"Yes, I understand that the Bright Sands is in no way an area the size of Arrakis, but I think it demonstrates the point (I guesstimate the Asherati population as at least a few thousand) Who knows, perhaps the Asherati are the "certain stubborn native tribes" that the LGG mentions in the Bright Lands section of that book.
Mortepierre 01-05-06, 11:11 AM	that would mean there's less than 300 centaurs roaming the Bright Lands. .. which wouldn't surprise me that much. After all, a centaur eats a lot and the desert isn't that fertile. Plus centaur tribes roam constantly. I could easily see 5 to 6 clans of 50-60 individuals making up the whole population. After all, they are a dying race. Remember also that they (the Asherati) are a race that predominantly lives underground, with no trace of their cities aboveground; that would make it extremely difficult to estimate their true numbers... I'll grant you that one.
JohnduBois 01-05-06, 12:27 PM	Although the estimated number of centaurs roaming around raises an interesting question... what percentage of living desert centaurs are now adventuring?
kenobi65 01-05-06, 12:41 PM	Although the estimated number of centaurs roaming around raises an interesting question... what percentage of living desert centaurs are now adventuring? Apparently several hundred percent. ;)
Simpi 01-05-06, 01:56 PM	Apparently several hundred percent. ;) It would also interest me how many Asheratis there can be. After all, Manscorpions, being monstrous humanoids, probably sustain themselves by eating almost anything that moves, including horses, nomads and centaur but how do the Asherati survive? Has it been mentioned? Clearly they don't need water so they might do like certain desert insects in who dwell near the coasts and actually gain their needed water from the air moisture (or local cleric uses single create water to sustain community for a week) but obviously they need to eat and I doubt sand has that many calories :) They worship Geshtai, so clubbing desert nomads and eating their juicy entrails is probably not something they do. Perhaps they eat scorpions, which would make sense if they were immune to poison. Bugs and lizards that live in the Bright? Perhaps. Horses? Could do. There are many ways to survive in the desert (or most everywhere) but how large of a population this could reasonably sustain. Probably not that large. S.H, the guy from Naerie *I've actually wondered this recently. Why Geshtai, a Bakluni deity of water? Why not, let's say Varthis or Pelor/Aurifar, which would make more sense for people who started out as Flan.
Mortepierre 01-05-06, 02:14 PM	I've actually wondered this recently. Why Geshtai, a Bakluni deity of water? Why not, let's say Varthis or Pelor/Aurifar, which would make more sense for people who started out as Flan. That's a very good question. Varthis hadn't been resurrected yet when Sulm went down the drain (so to speak), so he couldn't have helped. Pelor/Aurifar probably could have done it, although he would have been more likely to transform them into something sustained by light than heat (plants?). Beory would have worked too but they would have ended up as some sort of earth elemental <shrugs> For all we know, Dune Stalkers were - at first - an attempt by another deity to save worshippers too, but one that turned bad (perhaps due to the intervention of Tharizdun?).
JohnduBois 01-05-06, 04:20 PM	I've actually wondered this recently. Why Geshtai, a Bakluni deity of water? Why not, let's say Varthis or Pelor/Aurifar, which would make more sense for people who started out as Flan. I think it speaks pretty poorly for Varthis and Pelor/Aurifar that when some of the Ancient Sulmites cried out for divine mercy from the Scorpion Crown, only the Bakluni water deity decided to help out these Flan...
Mortepierre 01-05-06, 04:32 PM	I think it speaks pretty poorly for Varthis and Pelor/Aurifar that when some of the Ancient Sulmites cried out for divine mercy from the Scorpion Crown, only the Bakluni water deity decided to help out these Flan... Actually.. no. Not Varthis at any rate. First of all, he was still dead when that occured. Second, he had been killed by a Sulmite magical weapon while defending a rival nation. Why on Oerth would he have helped Sulmites?!? If anything, he must have been cheering when that happened!