Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 12-20-06, 12:07 AM	Seriously, why? Is it because there aren't a million books published about signature characters? Is it due to the lack of a score of video games to show us what the world looks like? Oh, I know, its because Greyhawk rules and gods are in the PHB. Because the Greyhawk gods are there its considered "standard" so if we put the Forgotten Realms gods in there and made it where you had to buy a handful of supplements to give your campaign world any flavor to make it similar to Greyhawk then people would be quiet.
The_Jester 12-20-06, 12:38 AM	No, it's because it's a cookie-cutter world based on stereotypes established thirty years ago. * Ancient unexplored dungeons and ruins forgotten by time yet continually discovered and untouched. * Powerful wizards that rule over all and get low-level adventurers to do everything for them even though they can do almost anything with a wave of their hand. * Major nations rules over by humans of every creed and colour while demihumans have small niche nations all roughly identical. * Ruins of fallen empires and civilizations everywhere with even the most remote backwater being the seat of a former civilization. * Gods that walk among mortals and get them to do their bidden and perform tasks despite being gods and, like the wizards, able to do anything with a hand-wave. * Former continent-spanning empires that were destroyed in a disaster (read: cataclysm or magical disaster) just before recent history. * Long stretches of land that are clearly one type of landscape with uninterrupted forests the size of European countries and every conceivable environment in a single continent. * Magic that has existed for millennia and has been tapped by a solid percentage of the population yet has had no impact on technology and the average person continues to live exactly like someone in medieval times. Greyhawk is generic because it isn’t a niche world; there is no underlying concept or idea behind the world beyond “fantasy”. It isn’t “a pulp world where magic has replaced technology” (Eberron) or “gothic horror meets fantasy and 19th century literature interests black-and-white movies” (Ravenloft) or even a “heroic high-fantasy of epic romance, war and tragedy” (Dragonlance). It’s simply a fantasy world. A world with elves and dragons and dwarves. Like the Forgotten Realms it is simply generic fantasy.
solbergb 12-20-06, 12:50 AM	It's also generic because it was the first published setting and the one that most of 1st edition D&D was playtested in, and most of 1st edition source materials came from. Faerun was a late 1st ed/early 2nd edition invention, created mainly to give TSR some intellectual property that Gygax didn't own. Greyhawk actually has a fairly Hyperborean (Conan ) feel, in that modern, ancient world and medieval cultures had the serial numbers filed off and stuff was mixed and matched and they were plunked down in a geography that doesn't really consider modern concepts of plate tectonics. It's also got some weird history and dynamics because what Gygax described as events in the world in his histories and "Current events" postings in the Dragon weren't always mechanically sound in any edition. It is a world where leveled people are a small statistical sample of the world and adventurers rarer still, but there is so much population in the world that there are still a LOT of them. It also seems to be one where there is no way to easily discover the potential of a kid to be one of those amazing adventurers that goes to godlike power in a few years of steady activity, otherwise there would be no armies, there would just be a bunch of indoctrinated teenagers with vast superpowers protecting the more organized countries. It's also warped by Gygax's desire to run a low level, low magic world and the need to playtest the higher level mechanics and magic items. At least according to interviews with the principle players. 1st edition D&D had no way to actually purchase or comission a magic item from a NPC, yet Greyhawk had dungeons stuffed with the stuff, far more than could be used by any PC group. Faerun went on a different path, it has armies of high level fighters all with magic equipment etc. It's more internally consistent but is just bland. Gygax's work had a lot of internal contradictions but it had some really amazing cultures, personalities and stories to be told in that world, and the world was also "small enough" that PC's could eventually become important. In Faerun, there was always someone bigger than you. In Greyhawk, "Name" level meant you were peers with most of the rulers of the various lands. That's carried over pretty well into Living Greyhawk, and is a lot of why retirement is now L16. The setting breaks down fast if more than a handful of people on the continent have epic or near-epic abilities. This incredible creative richness of this mismatched, jumbled environment is why I came back to this setting 20 years later. There are enough stories to tell here to keep 15000+ players busy year after year. Say what you will about Gygax, but he put enough seeds of stories and conflict into this world to keep the environment vibrant and growing as long as we all are willing to play in it. Most worlds don't have this richness....it becomes much the same once you scrape the surface a bit. The diversity and lack of overarching plan can lead to funny contradictions at times, but it does usually make for good gaming.
solbergb 12-20-06, 01:03 AM	One other concept fairly unique to Greyhawk is dynamic balance. Some have called it "Militant Neutrality" and indeed the way druids were portrayed in the old days (and in some regions still are) they would pretend to be nice guys who helped with the crops but would topple governments if they felt too much "Law" for example, was in the land. The circle of 8 was also in that mold, building up and tearing down governments to suit their notion of balance of power. If gods showed up, their rival gods also got a free pass on showing up. Outsider gating tended to bring in rivals too, "for free". The later Tomb of Horrors" demon infestation was along those lines explicitly, but you see it in the original Temple of Elemental Evil when Iuz himself can appear..until Cuthbert shows up to chase him off. Lolth making a play for direct dominance instead of usual indirect "god stuff" exposes herself to complete destruction by adventurers. The fiends Iuz brought in willy-nilly seemed a violation of this principle but he also suffered severe setbacks when they were suddenly removed by the crook of Rao. Checks and balances, and unlikely allies. The Scarlet Brotherhood and Furyondy might actually team up to keep Iuz under control...they're both Lawful, he's chaotic. Followers of everybody show up to keep Tharizdun bound, even if they'd normally be at each other's throats. Multiple chaotic religions may join forces in the Temple of Elemental Evil to try to crack the Lawful societies surrounding the Gnarley Forest (and may try to ally with Dyvvers chaotic elements for claundestine support). The assumption that anyone getting too strong will cause strange alliances to bring them down seeds a lot of fun adventures, and indeed can have the party getting to interact with fun evil NPC's such as Robilar, or whackanuts like Zazyg when their purposes align.
Britt 12-20-06, 02:44 AM	I think some people are lacking an understanding behind the Greyhawk settings. The campaign is more low-fantasy and low-magic than Jester describes. Faerun is the world where you see high level casters and gods among men all the time. In Greyhawk there are gods and high level casters, but they are so rare and involved in their own things, that you won't likely ever encounter them. The most important aspects about Greyhawk are the "grey" part of its name and "wheels within wheels". Greyhawk is supposed to be a world without clear-cut good and evil, right and wrong, and where you're never quite sure who is working what angle and what that Paladin that hired you /really/ wants. Greyhawk is supposed to be a world of intrigue, politics, and shades of grey. As for "generic", I think Faerun more fills that than Greyhawk.
Madfox11 12-20-06, 04:27 AM	Greyhawk is not 'low-magic'. I find that one of the most often heard misconceptions about the setting. At best it is low-powered magic, but even that is doubtful when I look at the setting. The world contains more magical cursed and weird locations than the FR. The gods show an equally active interest and before the Flight of Fiends there were more fiends running around than in the lower planes. I know it is considered cursing in the church, but Greyhawk and FR really are not that different from one another setting wise. Both are generic fantasy settings for the reasons The Jester mentioned (although I don't agree with all of them). I like and dislike both for the same reason.
Britt 12-20-06, 04:33 AM	When I say Greyhawk is low-magic, I don't mean that you won't encounter magic items or magical locations. What I mean is that everyday life in the world does not revolve around magic, commoners are rarely magic users nor do they have much experience with magic, etc. While the PCs might encounter magic, the world in which the PCs live does not, typically. That's my opinion on it at least.
Lupo 12-20-06, 04:41 AM	Greyhawk is not 'low-magic'. I find that one of the most often heard misconceptions about the setting. At best it is low-powered magic, but even that is doubtful when I look at the setting. The world contains more magical cursed and weird locations than the FR. The gods show an equally active interest and before the Flight of Fiends there were more fiends running around than in the lower planes. I know it is considered cursing in the church, but Greyhawk and FR really are not that different from one another setting wise. Both are generic fantasy settings for the reasons The Jester mentioned (although I don't agree with all of them). I like and dislike both for the same reason. a D&D "low magic" setting was lankhmar, there caster types were relally chained down :) some refer to greyhawk as "generic" as it was one of the first "create a whole world concepts" in an rpg (not entirely true but most don't care :)) the first world box of TSR was published for greyhawk, and it is still valid and usefull for some thingies (i am lucky and have both, world of greyhak and greyhawk city box, i would still love to see them published electronically) a lot of D&D spells and items were named for (N)PCs of greyhawk. a lot of the original D&D module places and settings became later part of greyhawk, ok, apart from the wonderful d'ambrevilles :D ciao martin m.
Madfox11 12-20-06, 04:43 AM	Even if you use that definition Greyhawk is not low-magic. One look at the old modules and you would note that each village has a low-level wizard and cleric who make a living casting spells. In that regards FR is just as low-level magic as Greyhawk - specific countries in the FR excluded.
Britt 12-20-06, 04:52 AM	Most of the FR that I've seen is terribly high-magic, with far more direct intervention of gods and epic level characters than in Greyhawk. I'm not saying Greyhawk is the lowest in the land, but the world is definitely not nearly as high-magic as FR, where everyone in town seems to be a retired 20th level adventurer or some such. If I were to rate things on a scale of 1-10, I'd put Greyhawk at a 3 to 4 with occasional spikes up to 7 or so, while FR I would rate at a 6 or 7 with spikes up and down.
Madfox11 12-20-06, 06:01 AM	::shrug:: Greyhawk city definitely has its share of retired 12th level characters as innkeepers and the gods are actually MUCH more active in Greyhawk than in the FR (Time of Troubles excepted). Just remember that Greyhawk was mainly designed for 1st edition, and the FR mainly for 2nd edition (or at least in the period that most people remember it for). Both editions had a slightly different approach to levels. In my experience the differences are mainly of perception, and some of the errors made in the last days of TSR concerning the FR (too novel orientated which resulted in weak villains). I find both settings remarkably similar.
CrystalBlue 12-20-06, 08:42 AM	Most of my play experience has always been Greyhawk, and I can see where people will say that it's low magic. In FR, your normal conflict might be against a high-level wizard and his horde of fiendish minions...where in Greyhawk, the same level challange might bring you a few leveled human bandits. And it's harder to get powerful in Greyhawk. Not because of the leveling system, but the scale at which you're fighting. Epic in FR has a much different meaning then epic in Greyhawk. One means gods and devils while the other means the king or the captain of an army.
The_Jester 12-20-06, 09:08 AM	The campaign is more low-fantasy and low-magic than Jester describes. Faerun is the world where you see high level casters and gods among men all the time. In Greyhawk there are gods and high level casters, but they are so rare and involved in their own things, that you won't likely ever encounter them. Well, think of the big NPCs of the setting. The iconic characters of Greyhawk. Who are they? The Circle of Eight, Rary and Robilar. Nine powerful near-epic wizards (that constantly meddle and hire adventurers) and a 20th level warrior. I’ve heard the “Greyhawk is grey and alignment muddied” but I don’t think that’s reflected well in either the game or the setting. The alignment rules are pretty clear, as are the detection spells (paladins for example). The gods seem more the willing to kick out their divine champions for evil actions and it takes only a handful of evil deeds for a character to be designated “evil” and removed from play. I think Eberron with its “anyone can worship any god and receive spells” and “kobolds and chromatic dragons aren’t automatically evil” feel is much more grey. And the level cap of 16 has nothing to do with the setting as it used to be much higher. If it were a setting limit they wouldn’t have re-introduced high-level play. The problem is more likely the difficulty in consistently balancing high level adventures and scaling them between lower level groups. How a tenth level group and twentieth level group move through an adventure are radically different.
trollbill 12-20-06, 10:18 AM	No, it's because it's a cookie-cutter world based on stereotypes established thirty years ago. This reminds me of a friend of mine who recently read The Lord of the Rings for the first time. He commented that it read a lot like most of the other fantasy stories out there, not realizing that the reality was that LotR was what set the standard that everyone else was copying. Greyhawk isn't based on stereotypes established thirty years ago. It established those stereotypes over thirty years ago.
kenobi65 12-20-06, 10:28 AM	Faerun was a late 1st ed/early 2nd edition invention, created mainly to give TSR some intellectual property that Gygax didn't own. Yes and no. Faerun was created by Ed Greenwood before there even was a D&D, and when he started playing D&D, it became his personal campaign world. His articles in Dragon Magazine (starting in '82 or '83, IIRC) made mention of the Realms, and Dragon's editors wanted to see more. By the late '80s, TSR bought the rights to the Realms from Ed, but even so, TSR still owned Greyhawk, even after Gygax had been forced from the company. Gary hasn't had any legal rights to Greyhawk for a very long time.
The_Jester 12-20-06, 11:59 AM	This reminds me of a friend of mine who recently read The Lord of the Rings for the first time. He commented that it read a lot like most of the other fantasy stories out there, not realizing that the reality was that LotR was what set the standard that everyone else was copying. Greyhawk isn't based on stereotypes established thirty years ago. It established those stereotypes over thirty years ago. Yes and no. More accuretly it follows the conventions many creators used at the time, many derived from Tolkien and his many imitators and many simply thinking alike. It is an example of pure Junian group-conciousness where DMs across the continent all created similar things. A result was the 'concept' worlds of the late-80s and 90s like Dark Sun or Ravenloft which turned the traditional on its head. I tend to describe campaign settings based on three criteria. Fantasy, magic and power-level. While the Forgotten Realms is high magic so are Eberron and Greyhawk. The difference is FR is also high power-level while GH and Eberron are not. Greyhawk is also high fantasy like most of the D&D settings while others (Star Wars, Living Death/Masque of the Red Death) are lower fantasy.
Madfox11 12-21-06, 04:36 AM	Most of my play experience has always been Greyhawk, and I can see where people will say that it's low magic. In FR, your normal conflict might be against a high-level wizard and his horde of fiendish minions...where in Greyhawk, the same level challange might bring you a few leveled human bandits. And it's harder to get powerful in Greyhawk. Not because of the leveling system, but the scale at which you're fighting. Epic in FR has a much different meaning then epic in Greyhawk. One means gods and devils while the other means the king or the captain of an army. That is an extension of how your DM runs the game. A couple of my friends have been playing Greyhawk for ages, and their adventures where about the powerstruggle of Vecna to become a god and the many direct interventions by Zagyg into their lives. Their campaign is more epic and powerful than any of mine FR campaigns ever was. With the exception of the Time of Troubles, which many people do see as a mistake, the gods and demons are really more active in Greyhawk in the FR. One just has to look at clasic adventures like the Temple of Elemental Evil (Tharizdum, and 3 demi-gods/demon lords) or the Demonweb Pit which are all set in Greyhawk in which all involve demonlords and gods.
rockchops 12-21-06, 02:24 PM	It's hard to explain, but for some reason I feel more able to get immersed in the Forgotten Realms setting, than Greyhawk. 99% of the my DnD experience is with me close group of friends and playing homebrews. Only after a while did we get into building our campaigns into settings like FR or GH. I think that part of the advantage that FR offers to players like me is a large amount of literature and backstory widely available to it, and iconic characters like Drizzt and Elminster. It's certainly a different set of authors that contribute to each, and for me at least, I find better able to immerse my self and my characters in the stories of Faerun.
solbergb 12-21-06, 03:56 PM	Most of my exposure to Forgotten Realms is via CRPG's (especially the Gold Box Games, anyone else remember those?). I never read any of the books, and never played in a real campaign there, which is probably why it feels more bland to me. I've played campaigns in Greyhawk back in the day, read Gygax's "dragon" updates on news in the Flaness, etc. I'd say Greyhawk is more the "default" setting than the "generic" setting. Faerun flavor has always been in the suppliments, not the core rules.
The_Jester 12-21-06, 08:08 PM	That is an extension of how your DM runs the game. A couple of my friends have been playing Greyhawk for ages, and their adventures where about the powerstruggle of Vecna to become a god and the many direct interventions by Zagyg into their lives. Their campaign is more epic and powerful than any of mine FR campaigns ever was. With the exception of the Time of Troubles, which many people do see as a mistake, the gods and demons are really more active in Greyhawk in the FR. One just has to look at clasic adventures like the Temple of Elemental Evil (Tharizdum, and 3 demi-gods/demon lords) or the Demonweb Pit which are all set in Greyhawk in which all involve demonlords and gods. Let's not forget all the original PCs who are now gods and demigods. When your players regularly ascend to the status of deities then it's a high power and high magic campaign.
Akhamshyy 12-22-06, 12:00 AM	Let's not forget all the original PCs who are now gods and demigods. When your players regularly ascend to the status of deities then it's a high power and high magic campaign. Hey, turn-over in Greyhawk has nothing on the Realms. Think how many greater deities they've gone through, come on, three goddesses of magic, four gods of death, and I forget how many gods of war and/or murder. Greyhawk can be the buffet setting it is because that doesn't happen. And it isn't high magic, it's that adventurers are an upper-middle class and see it often. Things PCs take for granted can scare the life (literally) out of commoners.
The_Jester 12-23-06, 06:31 PM	The difference being in Greyhawk instead of replacing the gods they just take a place beside them. Greyhawk has one of the largest and most extensive pantheons imaginable, with half of them being formerly mortal and many ex-adventurers.
Britt 12-23-06, 09:20 PM	I'd like to see the actual numbers on a claim like that.
The_Jester 12-24-06, 01:14 AM	I'd like to see the actual numbers on a claim like that. That’s a pretty hefty task. Okay, going from the big Greyhawk deities guide there are 193 gods. Easily, hand’s down the biggest pantheon ever. However, the guide is pretty unreliable as only 127 have any details and many of those (like a 1/3) only have the barest of descriptions and no biographies. From this book it’s clear that the follow gods were once mortal: Al’ Akbar Daern Charmaline Gendwar Argrim Iuz Johydee Keoghtom Kuroth Kyuss Mayaheine Murlynd Nazarun Roykin Rudd St. Cuthbert Tsolorandril Ye’cind Vecna Wastri Zagyg Zinzerena Zuoken This is just a half-assed list I pulled from the deity guide in fifteen minutes with random word-searches (“mortal”, “ascend”, “godhood”, “sponsor”, “divinity”, etc). Now, admittedly, this is only a fifth of the gods with biographies and 13% of the total gods, but there are likely many, many more who would qualify if the guide were complete and the biographies (and origins) a little more fleshed out. I’m sure a detailed search of other sources (the LG Gazetteer, campaign settings, regional books, etc) will turn up a wack of other gods.
Lupo 12-24-06, 07:41 AM	That’s a pretty hefty task. Okay, going from the big Greyhawk deities guide there are 193 gods. Easily, hand’s down the biggest pantheon ever. However, the guide is pretty unreliable as only 127 have any details and many of those (like a 1/3) only have the barest of descriptions and no biographies. From this book it’s clear that the follow gods were once mortal: Al’ Akbar Daern Delleb Charmaline Gendwar Argrim Iuz Johydee Keoghtom Kuroth Kyuss Mayaheine Murlynd Nazarun Roykin Rudd St. Cuthbert Tsolorandril Ye’cind Vecna Zagyg Zinzerena Zuoken This is just a half-assed list I pulled from the deity guide in fifteen minutes with random word-searches (“mortal”, “ascend”, “godhood”, “sponsor”, “divinity”, etc). Now, admittedly, this is only a fifth of the gods with biographies and 13% of the total gods, but there are likely many, many more who would qualify if the guide were complete and the biographies (and origins) a little more fleshed out. I’m sure a detailed search of other sources (the LG Gazetteer, campaign settings, regional books, etc) will turn up a wack of other gods. :) "Mystara" aka "Known World" has far more ascended mortals and also hosts a wide variety and numerous gods, deities, demi-gods, hero-gods, and so on. ok, there are only near to 60 of them, but almost every single one started as a human (there are some 5 who haven't);). you know, the world started when player characters could become gods :D. (the golden box anyone??) ciao martin m.
Samwise 12-24-06, 11:35 AM	This is just a half-assed list I pulled from the deity guide in fifteen minutes with random word-searches (“mortal”, “ascend”, “godhood”, “sponsor”, “divinity”, etc). And a closer check reveals you pulled up at least one false positive. Delleb is noted as possibly having sponsored Daern, not having been sponsored himself. While the deity list has been inundated in recent years with a swarm of upjumped hero-deities and a greater swarm of racial deities on the theory that every race must have a deity of every alignment and every major portfolio, the original list of GH deities was not particularly overrun with ascended mortals.
Britt 12-24-06, 12:37 PM	I’m sure a detailed search of other sources (the LG Gazetteer, campaign settings, regional books, etc) will turn up a wack of other gods. Right, and how many of those were previous PCs? Most of the more famous previous PCs aren't demigods.
The_Jester 12-24-06, 02:58 PM	Right, and how many of those were previous PCs? Most of the more famous previous PCs aren't demigods. If I could find reliable information on the original characters I could find some. Still, there's only, what, 5 gods in the Realms formerly mortal? Six? Greyhawk has three times that number with even a casual search (and there are more I just can't find 'em without blowing an afternoon).
The_Jester 12-24-06, 03:09 PM	Let's not forget all the original PCs who are now gods and demigods. When your players regularly ascend to the status of deities then it's a high power and high magic campaign. Right, and how many of those were previous PCs? Most of the more famous previous PCs aren't demigods. I should point out this was an obvious exaggeration. Of course not all the original players made it this far. Many died and some were likely retired as people swapped characters. But many did become gods. Many became members of the Circle or other well-known figures. The difference is not every character played made it into setting canon while almost all those that did are in disgustingly-powerful or epic range. It is an unfair comparison to the Realms because FR has so many varied characters that have sprung from adventures and books while Greyhawk only has a smattering of iconic figures. It just always struck me that while FR has a high-powered reputation characters there run the gamat from low to epic while Greyhawk, with it's grittier low-power reputation, only has L15+ archmages and Robilar as recognisable names.
Mitchell 12-25-06, 08:30 PM	Back to the OP: WotC's default Greyhawk is "generic" because the official WotC stance is that they will use the barest of Greyhawk' bones with which to provide details for players, as in the named spells and the dieties, among other things. This makes the game "complete" out of the box. Living Greyhawk, my Greyhawk, your Greyhawk, and anyone else's Greyhawk are not generic. They are detailed, just detailed in different ways to suit the wants/needs/outcomes of whoever's Greyhawk it happens to be. The same can be said of whether it is high magic. low magic, etc. Every DM/group may have a slightly different take on this based on their experience. Gygax's Greyhawk, I would say, though, was not low magic. That doesn't turn it into FR or Eberron, though. There is a different feel to me.