Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bhale187 01-19-07, 09:20 PM	I am wondering why Legacy of the Green Regent, Living Force, and the 2 Ebberon settings have had such little success, but Greyhawk is still prospering. Personally I think the Living Force was doomed from the start due to the huge game mechanics changes when WotC took over. The old Star Wars RPG was the best system around IMO. I played D&D for many years before I started on the old style SW RPG, but I quickly learned to prefer the mechanics of SW beacuse things flowed so well. LotGR seems like it should have done great. Forgotten Realms, it seems to me, is the best known setting and has countless expansion materials. It really surprises me it died. Eberron, while both are still alive, neither is enjoying a fraction of the success of Living Greyhawk. Personally I do not like the Ebberon setting after reading the corebook, but that is obviously just a personal taste much like my dislike of the new SW in comparison to the old. However, I know tons of people who think the Eberron setting is the best to date for D&D and love the new options it offers so why is it so unpopular? I am just curious what everyone else thinks is the reason for LG to do so well and the others to well, not do as well.
NiTessine 01-19-07, 09:29 PM	Living Greyhawk scenarios are available for longer, and in vastly greater quantities than modules for the other campaigns. In fact, unless I am mistaken, at any given time you will have more LG modules to play than modules for the other four campaigns combined, without having to leave your region. The online character tracking system used for Legend of the Green Regent, Mark of Heroes, and Xen'drik Expeditions is immensely unwieldy compared to the AR system used by Living Greyhawk. Level kicks are Communism.
Genghis Cohen 01-19-07, 09:32 PM	I don't really know the answer, but I suspect it has something to do with how LG empowers many players to help run and shape the campaign.
kenobi65 01-19-07, 09:35 PM	A big thing you need to bear in mind is that the D&D Campaigns (and, for that matter, Living Force and Living Death) are all designed to have a limited lifespan. From that standpoint, they're very different from a campaign like Living Greyhawk, which has no predetermined end-point. The D&D Campaigns were all intended to only last for about 2 years. Living Force had a planned, five-year lifespan from the beginning of the campaign. All of those campaigns have / had a storyline with a pre-planned beginning, middle, and ending. While Living Greyhawk has story arcs, and the regions had storylines that stretched across the first five years of the campaign, they're simply not structured in the same way. So, if you're assuming that other campaigns weren't successful because they ended, you're proceeding from a faulty assumption.
LGMoses 01-19-07, 09:35 PM	LG is an ongoing campaign with mods that are available for about 2 years at a time and a tracking system that puts a lot of trust in the players. regarding eberron. I liked the system but the way they just kept putting out more and more books and stuff just put me off. Also, i hate psionics. just a personal taste thing.
bhale187 01-19-07, 09:43 PM	A big thing you need to bear in mind is that the D&D Campaigns (and, for that matter, Living Force and Living Death) are all designed to have a limited lifespan. From that standpoint, they're very different from a campaign like Living Greyhawk, which has no predetermined end-point. The D&D Campaigns were all intended to only last for about 2 years. Living Force had a planned, five-year lifespan from the beginning of the campaign. All of those campaigns have / had a storyline with a pre-planned beginning, middle, and ending. While Living Greyhawk has story arcs, and the regions had storylines that stretched across the first five years of the campaign, they're simply not structured in the same way. So, if you're assuming that other campaigns weren't successful because they ended, you're proceeding from a faulty assumption. In my area you can't get a table together to play the eberron settings, there are just not enough people to play. Also there are hardly any modules to play for those who can muster a game. If they were successful/prosperous neither of those instances would be a problem. The Green Regent and Living Force would have been replaced if they were successful, i.e. had enough regular players to increase revenue for WotC.
kenobi65 01-19-07, 10:25 PM	In my area you can't get a table together to play the eberron settings, there are just not enough people to play. Also there are hardly any modules to play for those who can muster a game. If they were successful/prosperous neither of those instances would be a problem. Fundamentally, no RPGA campaign is as popular as Living Greyhawk; it's the one campaign that is easy to find players for in most places, probably because it's fundamentally "base" D&D. That doesn't mean that no one's playing the other campaigns, but it does mean that appeal is, indeed, regional. It takes a few dedicated players in any one location to get play of a particular campaign going. For example, there's a core of Living Death players in Michigan and Ohio, and another group in the Atlanta area, and another in New York; they even hold LD-dedicated conventions in those areas. In Chicago, on the other hand, there are far fewer players interested in LD, and you rarely see it offered at cons in this area. Eberron's probably similar; I know some people who love the setting, but it's not "baseline" D&D, and thus it's probably not everyone's cup of tea. As far as the module availability for Eberron, that's the way RPGA has chosen to structure that campaign. In LG terms, they only write the modules for one APL, and, with the level kicks in those campaigns, they can be sure that everyone who plays those modules is at the right level. It has nothing to do with not having enough ideas for modules or enough writers (which is what you seem to be suggesting), although it does apparently frustrate players. I don't think it's a good strategy for the D&D Campaigns, but it's the way they've chosen to run things. (I'll note that the new Xen'drik campaign has 4 different factions, thus, in theory, giving more playable modules at any given point.) The Green Regent and Living Force would have been replaced if they were successful, i.e. had enough regular players to increase revenue for WotC. There's plenty of demand for a Forgotten Realms campaign. It sounds like you're new to the RPGA, and thus, you probably don't remember or know about Living City. LC, set in the Realms, was the original Living-style campaign, and was tremendously popular in its heyday. However, it wound up with a number of problems (including a conversion from 2E to 3E that caused some serious campaign imbalances), and wound up being cancelled by the RPGA. Green Regent, by the RPGA's notes, was popular, though many LC fans wanted LC brought back instead. I suspect the reason that there hasn't been another FR campaign since then has more to do with WotC wanting the RPGA to focus encouraging play of Eberron (and thus, sales of Eberron books) than anything else. As for Living Force, the story there has little to do with popularity, or lack thereof, of the campaign. Throughout LF's run, it was fairly steady at a player base of 3000 or so players (smaller than LG or the D&D Campaigns, pretty comparable in size to Living Arcanis, and bigger than any of the other RPGA campaigns). The LF campaign staff had already begun work on developing a second SW campaign for the RPGA ("Living Force II"), when they were told by RPGA to pull the plug (if memory serves, they announced that just about a year ago). This decision came down from WotC, and was entirely due to the fact that WotC did not actively support the SWRPG from 2004 through the present. As RPGA is fundamentally a marketing expense for WotC, they did not want RPGA spending money on a game system that was fundamentally moribund, and thus, was unlikely to be making WotC any more money. With WotC's decision to revive the SWRPG with the Saga Edition (due out in March), it's entirely possible that there'll be a new RPGA SW campaign.
bhale187 01-19-07, 10:57 PM	Kenobi, You seem to be taking this as some kind of insult to the RPGA or even yourself with a very defensive tone. My point is simply that the Green Regent and Living Force were allowed to 'die' without replacements. If WotC thought they were marketable ideas they would have prepared a replacement for them before they ended. And Eberron obviously does not enjoy but a fraction of the following of Living Greyhawk. Living Greyhawk by shear number of players alone is a clearly a much more successful RPGA setting, and I was just wanted to hear people opinions of why that is so.
kenobi65 01-19-07, 11:11 PM	You seem to be taking this as some kind of insult to the RPGA or even yourself with a very defensive tone. I apologize if I'm coming across as so. Mostly, I'm trying to help you understand the whole situation; it seems like you've got some mistaken assumptions. My point is simply that the Green Regent and Living Force were allowed to 'die' without replacements. If WotC thought they were marketable ideas they would have prepared a replacement for them before they ended. And Eberron obviously does not enjoy but a fraction of the following of Living Greyhawk. Popularity alone doesn't determine what the RPGA supports. It really comes down to what helps WotC sell books, and prioritzation. That's also why the RPGA has stopped supporting campaigns based on other companies' books, like Living Arcanis (which was second to LG in player base among the Living campaigns when it was cut loose from the RPGA). LG features rules items from most of the non-setting-specific WotC rule books. Forgotten Realms books sell pretty well on their own; there's been a strong core of FR fans for a long time now (it's been a TSR / WotC campaign setting for over 15 years). WotC may not feel that a FR campaign is needed to spur additional sales. Eberron is the campaign setting that WotC has focused most of their attention on in recent years, and WotC uses the RPGA to build play of that setting (and, thus, sales of books). LF was allowed to end without a replacement because, at the time that a decision needed to be made on having an immediate replacement for the campaign, the Star Wars game wasn't being supported by WotC. They don't want to spend money behind an unsupported game. Living Greyhawk by shear number of players alone is a clearly a much more successful RPGA setting, and I was just wanted to hear people opinions of why that is so. My thoughts on that: - As the closest to "baseline" D&D of any of the campaigns, it has the most accessibility to players. If I know D&D, I can play LG without having to learn about campaign-specific races, abilities, etc. - Greyhawk has been around for as long as D&D has, and players are familiar with the setting. - The regional system allows players to be more directly involved in their local storyline. - The sheer number of modules available -- as a player in a supported region, you get 8 regionals, 8 metaregionals, and 20 cores a year, and you can play far more than that if you're willing to travel. (Note: at its peak, Living City may well have been as popular as LG, and it, too, had a very large number of modules available for play.) BTW, I think I see that you're going to Winter War in Champaign next month. I'd be happy to buy you a drink and show you that I'm not the old cranky SOB my posts here make me out to be. :D
Britt 01-19-07, 11:20 PM	One of the primary reasons at this point is that it is already popular. If someone wants to start playing now, they are more likely to find LG games, conventions, and players than any other campaign. There are more LG players pulling friends in than any other campaign, more adventures to play, etc etc. If you were to start three campaigns off right now, from scratch, with the exact same system design but use Faerun, Oerth, and Eberron, the numbers would not at all look like what you get with LG and other systems. At this point, it is much like the adage that you need money to make money. LG has more players, so it grows faster. The others have few players, so they can't get off the ground. Sure, there are many structural reasons as well. LC was quite popular for a while, but it had several problems strike that caused it to die. There was the change from 2nd to 3rd, which is the obvious problem. More importantly, to me, LC was plagued by poor writing and power creep (ala WoW) at the same time the conversion hit. I don't mean this as a bash against LC, but most everyone I knew that played LC thought the same thing. Sure, I don't like Faerun as much as Greyhawk, but that's a seperate issue. Green Regent and Mark of Heroes had administration issues where they had too few adventures coming out to keep people hooked. There was a lot of interest in LGR when it debuted, but the administration couldn't keep up it going. People lost interest and the novel level-bump campaign system failed primarily because of the lack of content. Some people may like or dislike the system, but it can't work without content. Now XE is coming along and people have an automatic distrust of the campaign due to LGR and MoH. XE is putting out enough content, but people still aren't sure if it's going to work, so they don't have as much desire to play in the campaign. The regional system is extremely popular. It's a good system from both the player and the administrator sides. Players get attached to a region and start to feel some sense of ownership in the campaign, and you can split the administration up amongst many volunteers. XE is picking up some of this, but the factions likely won't lead to the same player sense of ownership. XE is still a great system though and I'm enjoying playing it. I fully expect any future campaigns to use some variant of the regional system. The open-ended nature might help innately as well. I believe LC and LG were the most popular campaigns and both are open-ended. There might be something that subconsciously attracts players to a system where the end is not set and things are more fluid.
Akhamshyy 01-20-07, 12:41 AM	The regional system is extremely popular. It's a good system from both the player and the administrator sides. Players get attached to a region and start to feel some sense of ownership in the campaign, and you can split the administration up amongst many volunteers. XE is picking up some of this, but the factions likely won't lead to the same player sense of ownership. XE is still a great system though and I'm enjoying playing it. I fully expect any future campaigns to use some variant of the regional system. The open-ended nature might help innately as well. I believe LC and LG were the most popular campaigns and both are open-ended. There might be something that subconsciously attracts players to a system where the end is not set and things are more fluid. I wish WotC would embrace the design of LG instead of that which they've chosen for the Eberron campaigns. It seems more likely they don't want to put in the energy that LG takes to form a successful, stable, and long-lived campaign anymore. The unfortunate thing is that the system used by LG is why it's so successful and it's success will strengthen the system with new writers and volunteers. The other campaign system can't capture this 'magic' and are more often designed to expire but more likely to atrophy before then. More people want what's easier to use and better to play, and the other campaigns can't compete against this. I myself have dropped almost all but LG, because I like having lots of mods to play, the feel of leveling myself. And lastly, I like helping at inter-actives and writing scenarios and helping the triad build a better campaign. I can't do that in D&D Campaigns.
Grantor 01-20-07, 02:19 AM	Moses and others, It has been interesting to hear the details on the merits and faults of the D&D Campaigns--why LGR and LF have not been replaced, and so on--But I would like to here more about the thread's topic: Why does LG live on? What draws people to keep playing; what encourages someone to start a second (or third) back-up character to play with? Is it more than what my girlfriend says "People like to make small numbers into bigger numbers."? Do people just grind through adventures that are not enjoyable to get the AR? If not, they what are they seeking? If so, then how can the repeated (but probably not frequent) disappoints be overlooked, instead of adding up to enough dissatisfaction to quit? Thanks in advance for your input!
RanielK 01-20-07, 04:59 AM	The open-ended nature might help innately as well. I believe LC and LG were the most popular campaigns and both are open-ended. There might be something that subconsciously attracts players to a system where the end is not set and things are more fluid. Yes, but LC failed after it moved from RPGA control to a different group of administrators. Other open-ended "Living" campaigns have fallen by the way side. IMHO, the reason LG has continued and is likely to continue is turnover in people. As players grow tired of the campaign and stop playing (for whatever reason, not just negative ones), new players are introduced by friends/family/that big both at GenCon. As the much maligned, underappreciated Triads, Circle members and other campaign staff drop out, others step up. As old writers stop due to losing that every important resource time due to real life emergencies, new ones sit down and think "Wow! what a great idea. I'll write a mod." Other "Living" campaigns had a dedicated few out there with the motivation to organize the events and write the mods and recruit the players. However, they're the only ones. Once they finally break, and they will, no one else steps up to take their place. Another campaign bites the dust. When whole regions are making due with one or two Triad members for years at a time, when the best you can get is one or two writers getting 3-6 Regionals out in time, when metaregions have neither Circle reps nor mods, then LG will collapse. Until then, dedicated individuals keeping stepping up and picking up the standard from their fallen comrades and the campaign marches on! Geez, after rereading that, I feel I should be standing in front of a giant flag Patonesque style with the strains "God Bless America" in the background.:P
kenobi65 01-20-07, 08:48 AM	Yes, but LC failed after it moved from RPGA control to a different group of administrators. Well, that's because Ryan Dancey thought that he could run a business by charging people to play LC. Turns out he was mistaken. (And, at that point, the campaign was already collapsing under the power creep and imbalances between converted 2E characters and "native" 3E characters.) Other open-ended "Living" campaigns have fallen by the way side. I think what LG and LC have / had is the combination of an open-ended campaign model and a widely-popular gaming genre (i.e., reasonably "vanilla" D&D). Living Rokugan and Virtual Seattle were both "cut loose" by the RPGA in 2003, much as they're cutting loose Living Arcanis now. All three of those campaigns continue, being run by their publishers (though, quite likely with less "reach" than they had when under the RPGA). I wonder if Living Spycraft will be made independent, as well. The Procampur and Sarbreenar "sub-campaigns" to LC were both cut loose when LC was sold to Ryan Dancey. Both continue as smaller, independent, volunteer-run campaigns (Legends of the Shining Jewel and Living Sarbreenar, respectively). Living Dragonstar died when the publisher pulled the plug on the game line, choosing not to update the game to 3.5. If "fallen by the wayside" means "aren't campaigns that are nearly as big as LG", then you're right. But, most of these do continue on with (admittedly smaller) cores of loyal players. Living Arcanis is the one that will be interesting to watch; it's been consistently growing for years, and was undoubtedly the second-biggest Living Campaign to LG when it parted ways with RPGA. It'll be interesting to see if Paradigm can keep up the growth now that the campaign is independent.
RanielK 01-20-07, 09:13 AM	If "fallen by the wayside" means "aren't campaigns that are nearly as big as LG", then you're right. But, most of these do continue on with (admittedly smaller) cores of loyal players. Living Arcanis is the one that will be interesting to watch; it's been consistently growing for years, and was undoubtedly the second-biggest Living Campaign to LG when it parted ways with RPGA. It'll be interesting to see if Paradigm can keep up the growth now that the campaign is independent. LA will be interesting to watch. It seems (from the outside) to have enough mass to support turnover. There should be folks aplenty to step up into the mod writing and event planning and campaign managing posts to keep it going. Plus I hear nothing but positive things from the players, so the recruiting front should do well. Any campaign will live no matter what a parent company does (shy of legal action to cease and desist) if it has enough volunteers dedicated to seeing it go and enough new recruits to step into their shoes when fatigue and real life keep them from their duties. One doesn't need the play numbers of LG. One just needs a growth that is at or slightly ahead of loss. Stability (i.e. the same ole dedicated core) of player base is nice, but eventually that loyal core just can't continue through no fault of their own. You need new recruits who become just as dedicated to keeping it going or a campaign will fail no matter the intentions of the creators.
smerwin29 01-20-07, 09:33 AM	I am wondering why Legacy of the Green Regent, Living Force, and the 2 Ebberon settings have had such little success, but Greyhawk is still prospering. To start a post asking why LG is doing well by saying that other campaigns did not is just the wrong tact to take. LG is great. I don't even think the people at WotC, in their most wildest of dreams, thought LG would ever be this big. It is a marketing dream come true. With comparatively little resources (more on that later), they are getting from LG what they could never even come close to getting with other types of marketing campaigns. To compare anything to LG is an unfair comparison. The D&D Campaigns (Green Regent, Mark of Heroes, and Xen'drik Expeditions) are experiments. The RPGA did not go into this saying, "We think this is going to be bigger or better than LG." There were other goals and thoughts for these campaigns: some of which I know but can't talk about, some of which I don't. But they are not LG, nor were they intended to be LG. Personally I think the Living Force was doomed from the start due to the huge game mechanics changes when WotC took over. The old Star Wars RPG was the best system around IMO. I played D&D for many years before I started on the old style SW RPG, but I quickly learned to prefer the mechanics of SW beacuse things flowed so well. As people have already mentioned, the end of Living Force came for pretty much two reasons: issues with getting content cleared by LucasFilms, and WotC's dropping support of the game. It certainly wasn't LG (because again, nothing is) but it had a good player base. LotGR seems like it should have done great. Forgotten Realms, it seems to me, is the best known setting and has countless expansion materials. It really surprises me it died. It didn't "die" in the sense you mean it. In fact, I think it performed well in the context of the goals that were set for it. The campaign was supposed to only run two years. I pretty much ran its course. The reason it didn't end with a bang as it should have had nothing to do with player interest. It was problems on the administrative side. Eberron, while both are still alive, neither is enjoying a fraction of the success of Living Greyhawk. Personally I do not like the Ebberon setting after reading the corebook, but that is obviously just a personal taste much like my dislike of the new SW in comparison to the old. However, I know tons of people who think the Eberron setting is the best to date for D&D and love the new options it offers so why is it so unpopular? I think you pretty much answer your own question. Look at it this way. If you go outside of the RPGA arena to all D&D players, you have millions of players. Many of them look at the tens of thousands of LG players and say, "Man, LG sucks. I don't know why anyone would play it." And then they give their myriad reasons why. It's mostly because they like their own style of play, what they are used to playing, and it doesn't mesh with the style of player promoted by LG. Now you come into the LG players. They look at a new campaign that is radically different than what they are used to (Eberron plus special D&D Campaigns rules), and they say, "Man, Mark of Heroes and Xen'drik suck. I don't know why anyone would play it." And then they give their myriad reasons why. It's mostly because they like their own style of play, what they are used to playing, and it doesn't mesh with the style of player promoted by D&D Campaigns. Yet these same players who defend LG to the majority cannot seem to envision that they are doing the same thing for the same reasons. I come into this analysis as someone who has spent countless hours in the past promoting and working with LG (convention coordinator, Triad member, player, DM, and author) who is still promoting LG but also promoting Xen'drik Expeditions (Factionmaster, DM, and author). To use the other campaigns to compare success is really an apples and oranges thing. The goals are different on the administrative side. I respect people's right to not like one or the other, because people have their own wants and tastes. But to say one has succeeded or failed based on taste just doesn't make sense. I am just curious what everyone else thinks is the reason for LG to do so well and the others to well, not do as well. Again, if we just look at why LG did so unbelievably well and ignore the illogical comparisons, I think we can see a few reasons. First, LG was created at the perfect time. With the release of 3.0, many gamers who had lost interest in the game over the years decided to come back to it. And since they hadn't played in a while, they didn't have a group. LG was a great opportunity to get back into the game without needing a full time group. In fact, many found their own groups only after meeting them through LG. Also, while Living City was the high point of the RPGA for many people, it had some problems. Those problems were only made worse with the conversion from 2nd Edition to 3.0. People who became disillusioned with LC, or who felt they couldn't get into LC because they came late to the party, found a new start with LG. LG succeeds on the back of literally thousands of volunteers, going from the Circle to the Triads to the writers to the "evangelists" who run the game days. LG is so popular because these people take the time to keep the established players happy while bending over backward to bring in new players. So why isn't there Living Realms or Living Eberron? Because if you do that, you are going to erode away the structure that is keeping LG going. The RPGA can't support another LG, period. It's not a matter of monetary cost. It's volunteer cost. That is, in part, why you are seeing these D&D Campaigns in the form they are in. They are there to do a niche job without threatening LG. That's why it is so funny to see people compare them unfavorably to LG, saying that they aren't even close to as popular. Of course they aren't. They aren't supposed to. They are there to see if some of those millions of people, the people who hate LG because it doesn't mesh with their play style, might be interested in this kind of game, all without threatening the foundation of what makes LG great. Respectfully submitted, Shawn
Sieylianna 01-20-07, 11:51 AM	My point is simply that the Green Regent and Living Force were allowed to 'die' without replacements. If WotC thought they were marketable ideas they would have prepared a replacement for them before they ended. And Eberron obviously does not enjoy but a fraction of the following of Living Greyhawk. Living Greyhawk by shear number of players alone is a clearly a much more successful RPGA setting, and I was just wanted to hear people opinions of why that is so. If you believe WotC's numbers, Green Regent and the Eberron campaigns are more popular than living greyhawk. Since they have never released the numbers, it's impossible to verify. Ed
Akhamshyy 01-20-07, 11:57 AM	At the moment it's location escapes me, but there is a database tool that shows the number of adventures ordered and for what campaign. The numbers are out there, WotC lack of tranparancy or not.
RedKnightofKet 01-20-07, 12:12 PM	Shawn, you hit the issue right on the head, in a way I hadn't considered. If there were a Living Eberron (as cool as this could be), it would certainly take away some of my time that I spend playing and judging LG. After reading your take on what the RPGA Campaigns are designed to do gives me a bit more respect for the RPGA administration. LG has, in many ways, become its own entity. While RPGA hasn't given it much support in recent times (meaning the Campaign Cards in particular), this has been because they are trying to reach out to fans who want to try something not LG. It inevitably happens with most games that you get bored with it. You've done everything, you've seen everything, and you need a change, even if it's just temporary. By offering campaigns that are different from LG, the RPGA can keep those players by providing the alternative. Maybe, in time, there might be a support base out there for Living Eberron. I doubt it, but it might happen. I had considered that such a product didn't exist because that base isn't out there yet. Eberron is too new, too unfamiliar to be set up as a Living Campaign at this time. I also thought there may be intellectual property issues here, as well (ie, WotC doesn't want some sort of LE setting the canon for a world they are still publishing world-specific splat-books and novels. I hadn't considered the damage that such a campaign might do to LG. That gives some interesting food for thought. PS - how's Taking Flight coming? I'm really looking forward to continuing that series :) <snip> So why isn't there Living Realms or Living Eberron? Because if you do that, you are going to erode away the structure that is keeping LG going. The RPGA can't support another LG, period. It's not a matter of monetary cost. It's volunteer cost. That is, in part, why you are seeing these D&D Campaigns in the form they are in. They are there to do a niche job without threatening LG. That's why it is so funny to see people compare them unfavorably to LG, saying that they aren't even close to as popular. Of course they aren't. They aren't supposed to. They are there to see if some of those millions of people, the people who hate LG because it doesn't mesh with their play style, might be interested in this kind of game, all without threatening the foundation of what makes LG great. Respectfully submitted, Shawn
smerwin29 01-20-07, 02:56 PM	PS - how's Taking Flight coming? I'm really looking forward to continuing that series :) It is in design phase. Writing will commence soon. I think we are looking at an autumn release. Thanks for asking! :D Shawn
GenghisBob 01-20-07, 09:02 PM	For me; The portability of my character all around the world and online to play in any LG game anywhere - no hassels - no questions (as long as i have all my paper work), the persistent world, the ability to interact with PCs from all around oerth, the continuity of the story the camapign and my pcs, is important to me. Level bump DnD campaigns just dont cut it for my needs. I would really love to see an eberon Living Campaign. Xendricks comes close, but really has not grabbed me in yet, with the only real drawcard the ability to play an evil PC. Other living campaigns that I like as well are LA, LSJ, LF, LD and Black moor. I have not tried LKOK yet. (i have found LG to have the least amount of RP, but that has been increaseing out of all these other campaigns) GH happens to be my favourite campaign world as well. Regards GB
The_Jester 01-20-07, 09:39 PM	1) Turn-over: Old players leave, new players come, old player's sometimes return. An area/region goes through a surge of activity and creativity, dies down, while another area surges up. 2) Freedom: The world doesn't have to be unchanged for the next novel or official sourcebook. Character X is not immortal and region Y does not have to remain a barren desert. 3) Goals: When you join you see the players with huge binders of ARs, dozens of unique interesting favours, high level characters and interesting equipment. You don't just have a level bump and become as powerful as them. 4) Scale: It's worldwide. If you find a group in Russia that plays in English you can join them with the same character. 5) Luck: Greyhawk could have been done better, been organized more smoothly, but it could have been worse. It could have started at a time when the industry at a high point and failed when it slumped, or created at a low and had little interest. Definitely a right time situation.
Cynric 01-21-07, 03:30 AM	My opinion's only, In LG you get the sense of growing into your character. In any campaign with level bumps, you can't do that. I will not go into the reasons why I dislike level bump campaigns. In LG, there are plenty of mods available to play, even in non-US places. I am from Australia, and even before the return of Ratik, I had enough games to play. In LG, you can always find a table and are not penalised for not playing. I regularly play with characters in my area who have been playing since year one or two, and others who have only been playing for a month or two. And a final thing. Because LG has a long history, but the Greyhawk world doe not have numerous novels, and thus a fan base built up for it, you do not have people wondering , for example, why elminster, drizzt and a few others sort out this bad guy we are fighting.
Haro 01-21-07, 10:12 AM	If you believe WotC's numbers, Green Regent and the Eberron campaigns are more popular than living greyhawk. Since they have never released the numbers, it's impossible to verify. Ed This statement seems to be a contradiction in terms. Based on the numbers WotC give, LGR & Eberron campaigns are more popular than LG, but since they won't give us numbers we can't prove this? I don't believe that D&D campaigns have ever been designed to compete with LG. I heartily agree with Shawn on every single point he made, while cursing him for being more eloquent in stating it than I ever could. :-) One item of great concern to me is the turnover of senior campaign staff in the last few months, with (for example) John Jenks and Chris Tulach in the two metaregions I play in leaving large boots to fill. Ok, everyone's favourite House fanatic is doing a superhuman job as the Iuz Metaregional Circle rep, but Britt's enthusiasm in the face of so much negativity toward campaign staff is the glaring exception rather than the rule. Yes, there are many reasons why circle and triad move on, yet I can't help thinking that the major theme is that the incredible amount of work they do for nothing is subject to so much ignorant criticism. I think LG would 'live on' in a much more prosperous fashion if the player base were a little more appreciative of the near endless free entertainment they were given. Remember, they're not WotC employees so you aren't sticking it to 'the man' when you ***** and moan! Joe
Sieylianna 01-21-07, 11:05 AM	This statement seems to be a contradiction in terms. Based on the numbers WotC give, LGR & Eberron campaigns are more popular than LG, but since they won't give us numbers we can't prove this? Ian says that the D&D campaigns have greater numbers of players and are growing faster than LG, but he never releases the specific numbers. So you don't know if the figures are fudged, because they can't be verified. Ed
Madfox11 01-22-07, 08:00 AM	One item of great concern to me is the turnover of senior campaign staff in the last few months, with (for example) John Jenks and Chris Tulach in the two metaregions I play in leaving large boots to fill. Ok, everyone's favourite House fanatic is doing a superhuman job as the Iuz Metaregional Circle rep, but Britt's enthusiasm in the face of so much negativity toward campaign staff is the glaring exception rather than the rule. I find it a rather funny remark since the turn-over rate has been the same all the time. I have been a Triad member since year 0 (as in: I got involved before the kick-off), and world-wide there are no more triad members leaving as in previous years (in fact with 2 new regions we have more now). Even the Circle members were replaced in a more or less the same rate in the last three years or so. Being a Circle member is a *big* drain on your time even if you only focus on Triad and regional stuff, and I am quiet curious how Britt manages to keep up his time for this message board ;) Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Britt 01-22-07, 09:20 AM	I am a master of space/time manipulation.
gomeztoo 01-22-07, 11:10 AM	I am pretty sure Britt found the secret of cloning, and there are now about a dozen of him, each checking mailinglists and message boards...
MatteBlack 01-22-07, 11:29 AM	The way I see it, LG is the setting that best delivers D&D. Forgotten Realms and Living Force are campaign worlds that have well documented Heroes who have already lived alot the major stories out. Living Force isn't actually D&D and while, I think Eberron is a great setting, many veteran D&D players find it an alien place. If your a true enthusiast of D&D who wants to play a story where his character can be the Hero of note, LG ends up delivering what the most players are looking for.
trollbill 01-22-07, 11:57 AM	Ian says that the D&D campaigns have greater numbers of players and are growing faster than LG, but he never releases the specific numbers. So you don't know if the figures are fudged, because they can't be verified. Ed Well, I don't doubt that they are growing at a faster rate simply because they are newer. If a campaign has 1 player and grows to 2, its rate of growth is 100%. If a campaign has 100 players and grows to 101, its rate of growth is only 1%. So the smaller campaign has a higher rate of growth even if both grew by exactly the same number of players. As to greater numbers, certainly if I were to go by my personal anecdotal evidence, I would not agree with that. Certainly, in my neck of the woods, LG is far more popular when it comes to organized play than the various Campaigns. Although it may be quite possible that the various Campaigns are much more popular for the home game crowd than LG, and the home game crowd likely outnumbers the Game Day/Con crowd.
kenobi65 01-22-07, 12:34 PM	The way I see it, LG is the setting that best delivers D&D. Forgotten Realms and Living Force are campaign worlds that have well documented Heroes who have already lived alot the major stories out. Living Force isn't actually D&D and while, I think Eberron is a great setting, many veteran D&D players find it an alien place. If your a true enthusiast of D&D who wants to play a story where his character can be the Hero of note, LG ends up delivering what the most players are looking for. Well, that actually hits on two issues that Living Force had. 1) The campaign was, by Lucasfilm decree, largely limited to occurring in the Cularin star system. While that system was considered "canon", nothing else except Living Force was ever going to occur in it (i.e., you'd never see characters in a SW novel going to Cularin). So, while the PCs were the "Heroes of Cularin", and had some occasional forays to other planets (my PC got to go to Coruscant twice), by and large, we wound up as big fish in a small pond. Don't get me wrong, I loved LF, but I can imagine that there were some players who were disappointed to not be involved in the Clone Wars in a bigger way. 2) The Star Wars RPG has never been anywhere near as big as D&D. This has been a point of debate in the SWRPG community; many fans of the game lambaste WotC for not doing more to expand the game's base -- many D&D players are fans of the SW movies, so the SWRPG fanboys feel that WotC is completely missing the boat, and if they just tried harder, they should be able to get all those D&D players into SW. (Speaking from personal experience, pretty much every member of the D&D groups I play in like Star Wars (at least the original movies), but many of them have no interest at all in playing a Star Wars RPG.) But, yes, the net result is that the SWRPG player base isn't nearly as big as that for D&D. Even so, LF had a pretty consistent player base of 3000 or so active players through its run, which I think would qualify as "not bad."
Randall Montgomery 01-22-07, 01:47 PM	As to greater numbers, certainly if I were to go by my personal anecdotal evidence, I would not agree with that. Certainly, in my neck of the woods, LG is far more popular when it comes to organized play than the various Campaigns. Although it may be quite possible that the various Campaigns are much more popular for the home game crowd than LG, and the home game crowd likely outnumbers the Game Day/Con crowd. I think this pretty much sums it up. As someone who plays in a twice-a-week group that plays LG, XenEx, MoH, and a home campaing (and played LGR when it was active), I can testify that as much as I love XenEx, I would have no interest in playing it in a convention setting. In the campaings, you're playing with the same XP/GP for an entire convention, then jumping drastically once the events are reported, which IMO would seriously break a character's internal continuity. In addition, since you've only got 2-3 mods available per character at any one time, you couldn't go back and play with your home group until the next set of mods are released. With LG, you get your AR after each mod, do whatever purchasing/leveling you need to do, and you're ready for the next session. And when you get back to your home group, your character can give everyone all the details about the crazy stuff he went through over the last few time units, and you'll have plenty more mods that are still available. As for the original topic, I'd say LG is still going because it's still providing interesting play opportunities, which is entirely due to the hard work and dedication of the numerous volenteers who devote there time to all aspects of the campaing. Good job, guys! :D
Bob_the_Theurge 01-22-07, 01:49 PM	In my area you can't get a table together to play the eberron settings, there are just not enough people to play. Also there are hardly any modules to play for those who can muster a game. If they were successful/prosperous neither of those instances would be a problem. The Green Regent and Living Force would have been replaced if they were successful, i.e. had enough regular players to increase revenue for WotC. But then why, oh why, do the idiots in WotC's high-up divisions keep trying to beat the dead horse that is Cheeserron? I'm going to also go out on a limb and say that part of the reason that less and less people play the "other" campaigns is that the support they get is so haphazard. With LG, you know there are modules available, you know how to get them, and you know you can find play. In my locality, we're a huge city. We have a large player base. For a number of odd reasons, however, we don't have many *conventions* in our city; they all wander up north an hour to a college town, or west a couple hours to the state capitol, or northwest a couple hours to the other "big city" in the state. We have ONE real big convention as such, and it's held at one of the local universities, and it's being held in three weeks. One of our local players, an LG player who also enjoyed Eberron/Xendrik, offered to be coordinator to set up some Xendrik Expeditions slots so that players at the convention could try it out. He sent in the request, they started putting tables up for mustering... and then disaster. Disaster, that is, because the RPGA heads are putting Xen'drik through a "level bump", and a bump somehow involves (A) retiring all the old modules at once, (B) not putting any new ones out, and (C) freezing the campaign for two whole months. So, though we have a local guy TRYING to promote Xen'drik, trying to get people to play it, trying to spread the enjoyment he gets out of it, THEY WON'T LET HIM. And that's how they kill a campaign.
kenobi65 01-22-07, 02:25 PM	We have ONE real big convention as such, and it's held at one of the local universities, and it's being held in three weeks. One of our local players, an LG player who also enjoyed Eberron/Xendrik, offered to be coordinator to set up some Xendrik Expeditions slots so that players at the convention could try it out. He sent in the request, they started putting tables up for mustering... and then disaster. Disaster, that is, because the RPGA heads are putting Xen'drik through a "level bump", and a bump somehow involves (A) retiring all the old modules at once, (B) not putting any new ones out, and (C) freezing the campaign for two whole months. So, though we have a local guy TRYING to promote Xen'drik, trying to get people to play it, trying to spread the enjoyment he gets out of it, THEY WON'T LET HIM. And that's how they kill a campaign. Yup...unfortunately, this convention of yours coincides, more-or-less, with the D&D Experience convention, which is where the level bump and other stuff is happening. That seems to be one of the other bugs in the D&D Campaigns system; everything else grinds to a halt when the "big" conventions happen.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-22-07, 02:50 PM	Yup...unfortunately, this convention of yours coincides, more-or-less, with the D&D Experience convention, which is where the level bump and other stuff is happening. That seems to be one of the other bugs in the D&D Campaigns system; everything else grinds to a halt when the "big" conventions happen. Heh. Our area has 5.3 million people. This con is simply, freaking HUGE. The RPGA section gets its own building, because we outgrew every other area they gave us in years past. I don't care about DDXP, I'm supporting my home city's convention, because I want things to grow in this area. And the fact that WotC are willing to thumb their noses at VOLUNTEERS who are ACTIVELY TRYING TO PROMOTE CAMPAIGNS? Excuse me if I offer to slap them in the face just like they've just slapped me and my friends. If LG weren't RPGA-sanctioned, I'd still be playing LG, but you can rest assured this kind of behavior by them is one of the two big reasons I don't play any of the other "campaigns" they offer.
smerwin29 01-22-07, 03:05 PM	Ignoring the hyperbole and unnecessary insults, this is one of the problems of the level-bump that certainly needs to be addressed. All Xen'drik Expedition mods currently out there must be reported by 1/31/07 because the level bump needs to be managed in the database. That means the campaign is unplayable from then until 2/15/07 if you attend DDXP, and longer if not. That's two weeks, or longer if you don't attend DDXP. To me, even two weeks is too long, and it is a problem that you can be sure I am going to discuss (and already have discussed) very loudly and unhappily with the RPGA staff. I recognize that each issue that rears up means another batch of players turned off to the campaign. However, the implication that this is being done on purpose is ludicrous. I know I want to be able to give the volunteers who promote the campaigns, all of them, the support they need. I'll continue to push the RPGA as hard as I can to avoid situations like this in the future. Shawn Xen'drik Expeditions Factionmaster
Britt 01-22-07, 03:10 PM	While the lack of XE play leading up to DDXP is frustrating, I think you need to seperate out in your head the ideas of "slap in the face" and "frustrating necessity". A slap in the face is an intentional slight to the receiver, with the purpose of humiliation and insult. While there may be some ulterior motive involved, that is rarely the intent. A frustrating necessity, on the other hand, is something required by the system that has the unintentional side effect of being frustrating. There is no intent of frustration, insult, or humiliation involved in the latter. To often, I see people act like a decision by Hasbro, WotC, or the RPGA is targetted at frustrating, insulting, or humiliating a particular band of people. Only in extremely rare cases would this be the case, and probably only for ethical infractions. This situation should not elicit reactions such as "man, the RPGA is so friggin' rude! I hate them and all they stand for! How can they do this to me?!?" There was no intent to harm any individual, group, or convention. It was only a fault that necessarily arose out of the structure of the system. The correct response should be "this sucks; they really need to fix the way they handle the level bumps so we don't have this problem again." Or, maybe even "man, this system sucks; I'm never playing a system like this again." I don't advocate the latter, as I am liking XE and will play more, despite any frustrating problems to date. It is extremely important to differentiate the two types of reactions, though.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-22-07, 03:13 PM	Ignoring the hyperbole and unnecessary insults, this is one of the problems of the level-bump that certainly needs to be addressed. All Xen'drik Expedition mods currently out there must be reported by 1/31/07 because the level bump needs to be managed in the database. That means the campaign is unplayable from then until 2/15/07 if you attend DDXP, and longer if not. That's two weeks, or longer if you don't attend DDXP. To me, even two weeks is too long, and it is a problem that you can be sure I am going to discuss (and already have discussed) very loudly and unhappily with the RPGA staff. I recognize that each issue that rears up means another batch of players turned off to the campaign. However, the implication that this is being done on purpose is ludicrous. I know I want to be able to give the volunteers who promote the campaigns, all of them, the support they need. I'll continue to push the RPGA as hard as I can to avoid situations like this in the future. Shawn Xen'drik Expeditions Factionmaster Shawn, Your campaign just gave my locality "the finger." I'm not saying that lightly. I'm saying that as a fact. What you - and I'm speaking of the Xen'drik Expeditions campaign - have said to us, in no uncertain terms, is that the biggest convention - almost the only convention, despite its size - that isn't a 3-hour drive or longer away from me is not worth bothering to support. What I can then infer from this is that me, and anyone else around this area who the few Xen'drik players around have offered to help join the Xen'drik campaign, are not really wanted by your campaign at all. So there you have it. If not you, the RPGA campaign staff have said these things to me, and to anyone else who had been asked to GM or play these modules at the local convention. If you won't support us, don't be at all surprised if we decide not to bother with you.
Britt 01-22-07, 03:19 PM	Shawn, Your campaign just gave my locality "the finger." I'm not saying that lightly. I'm saying that as a fact. What you - and I'm speaking of the Xen'drik Expeditions campaign - have said to us, in no uncertain terms, is that the biggest convention - almost the only convention, despite its size - that isn't a 3-hour drive or longer away from me is not worth bothering to support. What I can then infer from this is that me, and anyone else around this area who the few Xen'drik players around have offered to help join the Xen'drik campaign, are not really wanted by your campaign at all. So there you have it. If not you, the RPGA campaign staff have said these things to me, and to anyone else who had been asked to GM or play these modules at the local convention. If you won't support us, don't be at all surprised if we decide not to bother with you. Do you have any quotes to go with these statements? Everything I have heard is that this is a necessary function of the system. You portray this as some evil mastermind in a big chair with his fluffy white cat pointing at particular areas and conventions and deciding that those don't get support. That's not at all how this is happening. Because of database issues combined with the structure of XE, the mods have to be reported at a certain date, before the level bump, and no new mods come out until after the level bump. This has nothing to do with an area, a person, or a convention. I haven't seen anything anywhere remotely resembling a statement like "we don't care about your convention so we're closing the database." If it's directed at you and yours, why does it affect everyone in the world? Do you think so much of yourself and your convention that you think WotC would do something to the entire world just to get at you? Sorry, but you are being extremely irrational about this. I can understand being upset, but the nature of your thoughts and comments are unfounded.
smerwin29 01-22-07, 03:28 PM	Shawn, Your campaign just gave my locality "the finger." I'm not saying that lightly. I'm saying that as a fact. What you - and I'm speaking of the Xen'drik Expeditions campaign - have said to us, in no uncertain terms, is that the biggest convention - almost the only convention, despite its size - that isn't a 3-hour drive or longer away from me is not worth bothering to support. What I can then infer from this is that me, and anyone else around this area who the few Xen'drik players around have offered to help join the Xen'drik campaign, are not really wanted by your campaign at all. So there you have it. If not you, the RPGA campaign staff have said these things to me, and to anyone else who had been asked to GM or play these modules at the local convention. If you won't support us, don't be at all surprised if we decide not to bother with you. If you contact me offlist, and show me where someone on the XE staff or the RPGA staff treated you with this level of disrespect, I will personal go into a frenzy never seen at the RPGA before, and that is saying a lot. If you are upset because an unfortunate circumstance surrounding the database arose that made it impossible for this convention to run the adventures and get them reported in time, then I say again that I am not happy about it either. Any "downtime" for the campaign, even two weeks, is too long. But that is what is happening, despite best intentions. Shawn
trollbill 01-22-07, 03:47 PM	If you are upset because an unfortunate circumstance surrounding the database arose that made it impossible for this convention to run the adventures and get them reported in time, then I say again that I am not happy about it either. Any "downtime" for the campaign, even two weeks, is too long. But that is what is happening, despite best intentions. Shawn Shawn, I too am very upset about the unfortunate circumstances that pretty much forced me to run 5 adventures in a two week period. I also understand that these were pretty much unavoidable given the circumstances and that you guys did your best with what you had to work with. So I do not believe any of you are a bunch of evil Demigogs. But let it be known that the situation was extremely frustrating and has been with previous Campaign systems. It is a basic flaw with the system. The short module lifespan might work when things run perfectly, but they never run perfectly, and even with the best of intentions I doubt they ever will. This is, by far, one of the biggest reasons I prefer LG over the Campaign systems. Over the last too months, XE has made me feel both pressured and stressed as I tried to make my players happy under the circumstances I was forced to deal with. That, to me, is not fun. I know you guys are earnestly going to try to avoid problems like this again, and that your heart is in the right place. But I think no matter how hard you try, things like this will happen again. The best way to avoid this problem is to develope more flexibility in the Campaign Systems. That doesn't mean they have to be run like LG. But as it stands right now, they just aren't flexible enough.
smerwin29 01-22-07, 04:01 PM	Shawn, I too am very upset about the unfortunate circumstances that pretty much forced me to run 5 adventures in a two week period. I also understand that these were pretty much unavoidable given the circumstances and that you guys did your best with what you had to work with. So I do not believe any of you are a bunch of evil Demigogs. August is. Well, I guess Greg is too. Geesh, and Brian certainly is. Hmmmm. But let it be known that the situation was extremely frustrating and has been with previous Campaign systems. It is a basic flaw with the system. As the system stands currently, I have already said more than once, I completely agree. I don't want people thinking that we are walking around whistling happily and thinking everything is peachy. If I see something wrong, I do everything in my power to get it changed, to the point where I am banging my head and getting twice as frustrated as the players. Listen, I know the problems, and I am always willing to hear people out when they have issues. I've taken a lot of feedback directly from the boards to the RPGA to try to get things moving as smoothly as possible. Which is why I have to step up when the criticism borders on the personal. Yes, it truly stunk that they had to "retire" mods earlier than planned to deal with the database. Yes, I was angry on behalf of all the places that were planning to run the mods in late January and early February that got shut out. That I care so much is exactly why I won't let the attacks get personal without speaking up. Shawn
Bob_the_Theurge 01-22-07, 04:18 PM	Britt and Shawn, I'm seeing what you are saying. I even understand what it is you are trying to say. However, what I am saying is how this is going to be perceived, and is being perceived by the player base here, whether you like it or not. Longer than a month ago, probably closer to two, we had our local Xen'drik guru start trying to recruit people. He held games at his house to try to get new players to play, which some of my friends attended. He started asking around for RPGA members who'd be willing to DM and Eat the new modules, so that he didn't feel like he was handling the brunt of DMing everything and could get to play more, because with the limited Xen'drik player base SOMEBODY here has to eat the modules in order for anyone else around to be able to play them. He sent out notices to the local LG message boards and other communication forums, inviting people to play, inviting people to look at the campaign, trying to drum up interest, trying to get people to join the local Xen'drik yahoogroup to arrange games and try it out. I personally volunteered to DM and Eat whatever, at least in the short term and at the convention, because he really enjoys it, and I wanted to help him out. I figured if I DM'ed them, I might be able to see what it is he sees, and I could start up characters later on when some other modules came out. He set out to get these organized for the local convention. He worked with the main convention organizers to get them listed on the schedule and the slot mustering webpage. He worked hard trying to email and contact the RPGA to get the modules available. After being strung along for a month, he finally - and in a very heavy hearted email - informed the judges for the convention that he was having to pull all the Xen'drik stuff he'd been working so hard to set up. WotC wouldn't let it play at all. There was no interest in working out a way to make it happen. And that this was very specifically a result of WotC/RPGA's dunderheaded, foolish insistence (my words not his) on making Xen'drik and its level bump an "exclusive" thing for DDXP. Previous conventions in the "near locality" of my area have continually not offered Mark of Heroes/Xen'drik/Green Regent due to lack of interest. Here we have a volunteer for the campaign, who likes the Xen'drik campaign setting and setup, trying his best to promote it, trying to get it in front of gamers at what I will say is bar-none the biggest convention of the area, a metro area with a population better than 5.3 million people. And what does he get? He gets NOTHING. He gets strung along for at least a month and then the door slammed in his face. And he gets the "satisfaction" of being Pretty ed Sure that the best chance to get Xen'drik out there for other people to play in this area [b]has just been blown, despite all his hard work. I can tell you right now: due to the way he was treated, and due to your "unfortunate circumstances", the morale of the area's biggest Xen'drik booster is now zilch. You can toss around words like "frustrating necessity" and "necessary function" all day long. What we see here, and what we get out of it, is that bringing in new players isn't "important" for those higher up. Supporting the local conventions isn't nearly as "important" enough as holding some thing a dozen states away that's "exclusive" that maybe two people from our area might attend if we're lucky. And do you know what? That's my "first impression" of the Xen'drik campaign now. Not a module, not a group of players having fun enjoying a module, not preparing a module and seeing what it is draws people to play it. No, I see conduct that matches quite nicely with the way that Green Regent, Living Farce, Mark of Zeroes, and the rest of the "limited" campaigns have been conducted; low module availability, haphazard bumps, and little to no support to even get people playing. You have said your piece. I'm telling you what we are seeing here, on the ground. I'm telling you that no matter what platitudes you feel like giving, this is a slap in the face to us. This is the top of the RPGA, or WotC/Hasborg, being so wrapped up in holding something "exclusive" at DDXP that any other area around doesn't mean anything and that efforts to bring new players in will just be wasted efforts anyways. I'm giving you the unvarnished truth. I know from your comments you don't like hearing it, but it needs to be said. The RPGA has chances to fix this, but from past performance, I hold very low hopes that they will bother to.
Reylance 01-22-07, 05:14 PM	If Legacy of the Green Regent had had more modules, XP and GP awarded at the table, and a log sheet or AR system, it may have been successful. Those are just the most important problems. Not having instant character advancement means playing an unequipped 1st level character three times, when in LG, after that first module, you can buy some potions, better armor, scrolls, or a masterwork weapon. I think the D&D campaigns have worked hard to establish a coherent plot line, but at the same time are designed with a campaign structure that discourages play. "I can either play the LGR module, and lose out on the XP opportunity of a LG module, or I can play a LG module, and eventually get the XP for the LGR module." The benefits of the plot line are lost to the lack of play. I do not like how every time I play a D&D campaign event, I have to at the minimum re-equip my character. That takes a lot more time than adding 3,300 gp to my Living Greyhawk character and checking if I have enough to buy one of a small number of available items. The D&D campaign system may be more free-form, but it takes time. I've played around 15 different campaigns, judging and writing for several, but now play LG almost exclusively. I'm not convinced any new campaign would be successful, even if it combined all the best features of LC, LG, LD, LA, etc. Right now, so many players travel to conventions with a focus on playing LG events. Given the choice between a local event with a variety of games and a nearby convention in another region with 7 LG events they haven't played, many will choose the latter. I'll offer my suggestions as to what I would want to see in a new Living campaign. Support for multiple level ranges, even just 2 or 3. Ability to play the modules for a long time. Immediate recognition of XP, GP, and items. Active support for game day and home play. At least 20 modules a year. Plot summaries after modules retire, representing what characters should know about the modules they won't had a chance to play. The first two are important. Picture a the first modules of a campaign designed for APLs 2 and 4. That way, even if you do a level 4 bump in 6 months, these modules can stay around for an entire year, allowing new groups to try the campaign from the beginning.
Herrbard 01-22-07, 06:47 PM	Support for multiple level ranges, even just 2 or 3. Harder on authors, but probably do-able. Ability to play the modules for a long time. Define a "long time". The Xen'drik modules 1 & 2, as well as the DMs marks, were available for six months. As long as LG? No. But six months is still a pretty good chunk of time. Immediate recognition of XP, GP, and items. This would be the biggest one to me. I too do not like the players being locked in to playing the adventures at one level during a Con. Active support for game day and home play. Agreed At least 20 modules a year. Well... If you chose to play in all four factions of Xen'drik Expeditions, you've had 26 modules to play in so far. And we are not close to a year yet. (3 Faction Mods plus 3 DMs Marks times 4 plus 2 Expedition adventures equals 26. And Well of Woe was a three round mod.) The first two are important. Picture a the first modules of a campaign designed for APLs 2 and 4. That way, even if you do a level 4 bump in 6 months, these modules can stay around for an entire year, allowing new groups to try the campaign from the beginning. This sounds plausible. Again, tougher on authors, but from what I've seen of our erstwhile Factionmasters, this should be duck soup for them. :cool:
Butterface 01-22-07, 07:54 PM	It may seem to some that Xen'drik Expeditions and Mark of Heroes have had little success, but that's probably unfair if you're comparing it to LG, for reasons very elegantly expressed by Kenobi and Shawn Merwin. For me, XE and MOH brought me into the RPGA fold. I've played since 2nd ed., took a break, and came back and discovered Eberron. I love the setting, and all of our home games take place in Keith Baker's creation. So when I realized that RPGA had these D&D Campaigns for the setting, we were all aboard. Knock it all you want, focus on the problems these campaigns have had (and they've been numerous, to be sure), but the fact of the matter is, I, and several people in my area, have been introduced to the RPGA through XE and MoH. Not only that, but we've met LG people that we normally would not have played with. When XE ends, we will still probably want to take part in some RPGA game, and LG participation will most likely be the result. Bob, I'm sorry about what happened to your friend that was trying to get XE going in your area. I'm the person that got it going for my local group, and while I haven't tried to organize things the way he has, I still know what it feels like to be the people I play with, "Sorry guys, there seems to be another problem." I keep a close eye on all things XE, and if a D&D Campaign style game can do well, it's this one. The factionmasters are constantly answering questions, writing quality adventures, contacting RPGA HQ on player's behalfs, running adventures at cons, and keeping the game alive in general. Bob, I know you're looking for someone to blame, not excuses, but the factionmasters are just now becoming able to shift from the schedule SRM made to the one they've worked out with Chris Tulach. Some things were just in the works, and we've had to deal with it. Shawn, Greg, Brian, August - keep up the good work!
Bob_the_Theurge 01-22-07, 11:03 PM	Bob, I'm sorry about what happened to your friend that was trying to get XE going in your area. I'm the person that got it going for my local group, and while I haven't tried to organize things the way he has, I still know what it feels like to be the people I play with, "Sorry guys, there seems to be another problem." I keep a close eye on all things XE, and if a D&D Campaign style game can do well, it's this one. The factionmasters are constantly answering questions, writing quality adventures, contacting RPGA HQ on player's behalfs, running adventures at cons, and keeping the game alive in general. Bob, I know you're looking for someone to blame, not excuses, but the factionmasters are just now becoming able to shift from the schedule SRM made to the one they've worked out with Chris Tulach. Some things were just in the works, and we've had to deal with it. "Sorry guys, there seems to be another problem." The problem I have is the attitude of "and we're not going to bother doing anything about it." Which is precisely what I'm seeing. With two months' notice, something could have been arranged. Nothing was. As far as I am able to tell, nobody even bothered to TRY arranging anything, and I've put forth what I consider to be a very obvious and basic possible-option that wouldn't have taken any work besides perhaps a few emails to an author or two in the other thread where I notified the Zen'drik people about this thread going on. My point remains. If the campaign isn't willing to support the judges volunteering to run stuff, isn't willing to support those trying to organize to expand the player base, isn't willing to treat their players better than garbage, then they shouldn't be surprised when players don't join and the volunteers won't volunteer for them. I'll volunteer for my local LG area any day of the week. I'll step in to judge on moment's notice if someone gets sick or is otherwise kept out. I'll do what it takes to make sure that I'm as ready as possible to judge for a convention, and when I say I'm volunteering to judge at a convention, I mean I'm available to judge for just about every slot there (though sometimes I draw the line at an Interactive, because I occasionally do want to play in those). I'll do this because despite the occasional hiccup we've had, our local triad do their level best to support us in any way possible, they communicate with us honestly, and they run a quality campaign, and I've seen the same from just about every other region I've visited. I volunteered in the past to eat Xen'drik modules, so that others could play. I was making the offer, to help the Xen'drik campaign expand. Since they aren't willing to support the playerbase, they can consider that withdrawn, and as I said in other places, as far as I'm concerned, Xen'drik and the other campaigns are on my "don't bother with these" list when the organizers ask what mods we should order for conventions I'm volunteering for. If they want that to change, if they actually want new players which I'm pretty sure as of this moment they don't, then they can prove me wrong by action.
Madfox11 01-23-07, 08:34 AM	People are trying to change it Bob, that is what Shawn and Britt are trying to tell you (and many things have changed already in the regards of adventure availability). It is just that this particular problem requires a lot more work than simply giving your conventions the adventures for after the level bumb and involves a lot more people than just the Fraction Masters.
Harliquinn 01-23-07, 08:45 AM	This would be the biggest one to me. I too do not like the players being locked in to playing the adventures at one level during a Con. I think after this level bump, this will no longer be an issue. Characters will not advance a level from one or even two adventures once they are 4th level and above. At conventions, you are able to note 'event treasure' on your character sheet and take it with you to other adventures. This was true at GenCon last year for those that played Faction Modules and Well of Woe; all treasure marked as event treasure went with the characters (potions, sometimes wands, masterwork weapons, etc). Harliquinn
RanielK 01-23-07, 02:59 PM	It is a basic flaw with the system. The short module lifespan might work when things run perfectly, but they never run perfectly, and even with the best of intentions I doubt they ever will. This is, by far, one of the biggest reasons I prefer LG over the Campaign systems. Over the last too months, XE has made me feel both pressured and stressed as I tried to make my players happy under the circumstances I was forced to deal with. That, to me, is not fun. And the sad thing is, this system is fixable. Considering the Campaign system is controlled more centrally from WoTC they should take a page from other serialized systems which have a higher production value and a tighter schedule, i.e. tv and radio serials. Production starts well before the season starts. By the time the season does start, a number of episodes are already in the can and ready to launch. This way the production crew can stay a little ahead of the season (especially important considering shooting an episode happens over 2 weeks at best). Since the Campaigns cover one central arc and then end, the basic plot line should be mapped out with the level bumps set in place (e.g. 1st after 5 mods, 2nd after 4 mods, etc). Write the first five mods, announce the campaign, then launch the mods. Get initial reporting from the first month or so to flesh out the next four mods and write them. Announce the level bump and retire the current mods. Spend a week at most getting final tallies then launch the next series. Lather, rinse, repeat, get to 20th and save the world!
Madfox11 01-24-07, 04:47 AM	The problem is not necessarily because of the lack of adventures, but had to do with the effects of the level bump on the character database. I know that my players were ****** off that their adventures were not recorded at all (not even for reward points) because the database level bump took place two days after their event and I had been unable to book it earlier (RL issues).
LCJJohnson 01-25-07, 03:19 AM	1. Because in LG there is never a day that zero mods are available for play, much less 14 days. 2. Because you know how long a given mod will be available for play from the day it is released and can plan accordingly. So all the current Xen'drik mods retire on 1/31/07. Why, exactly, aren't the new ones available on 2/1/07? If the released date for the new mods is 2/15/07, why wasn't the retire date set for 2/14/07? LCJJ http://www.quietfire.com/how.html
Mherduwynn 01-25-07, 04:49 AM	I am an evil demagogue. It's true. :) -A
kenobi65 01-25-07, 08:15 AM	1So all the current Xen'drik mods retire on 1/31/07. Why, exactly, aren't the new ones available on 2/1/07? If the released date for the new mods is 2/15/07, why wasn't the retire date set for 2/14/07?http://www.quietfire.com/how.html My understanding (and I may be mistaken) is that that "gap" was necessary to allow the database folks time to instate the level bump before the D&D Experience, which is the first event to happen post-bump.
smerwin29 01-25-07, 08:21 AM	That is exactly what I was told by RPGA HQ. In a previous campaign, there were problems because they did not leave enough time, and so people were reporting events after the level bump was completed in the database.
Madfox11 01-25-07, 08:35 AM	That is exactly what I was told by RPGA HQ. In a previous campaign, there were problems because they did not leave enough time, and so people were reporting events after the level bump was completed in the database. Which resulted in events not being booked at all... which angers players even more than two weeks of no scenarios.
smerwin29 01-25-07, 09:01 AM	Which resulted in events not being booked at all... which angers players even more than two weeks of no scenarios. Well, in some cases no matter what you do people will be angry. In the end you just do your best to make the campaign the best it can be under the given circumstances, fighting to make changes that lead to improvement and dealing with things that can't be changed.
LCJJohnson 01-29-07, 12:23 AM	My understanding (and I may be mistaken) is that that "gap" was necessary to allow the database folks time to instate the level bump before the D&D Experience, which is the first event to happen post-bump. I guess my imagination just isn't vast enough to fathom why this would take two weeks in the computer age. That is exactly what I was told by RPGA HQ. In a previous campaign, there were problems because they did not leave enough time, and so people were reporting events after the level bump was completed in the database. Snafu. Somebody didn't think to put in a REJECT for attempts to report mods after their deadline. Sorry, you have missed the deadline for reporting this module. Results for this module are no longer being accepted.
Madfox11 01-29-07, 03:49 AM	I guess my imagination just isn't vast enough to fathom why this would take two weeks in the computer age. Snafu. Somebody didn't think to put in a REJECT for attempts to report mods after their deadline. Sorry, you have missed the deadline for reporting this module. Results for this module are no longer being accepted. I doubt it is needed for the computers, but more for the people... And while the reject the event thing does happen after a specific date, it is really unfair to be able to play an adventure one day before the deadline and to accept it is filled in within 1 day, especially for conventions! [And which is what happened to me with a game day with 5 tables for Mark of Heroes during the summer. I freely admit it was partially my mistake, but nobody told me it would happen or otherwise I would simply have not organized it that closely to the level bump.]
Bob_the_Theurge 02-06-07, 11:37 AM	Why does LG live on? Because LG aren't stupid enough to do boneheaded things like this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=785355 The new modules are "available." But except for that waste of space known as DDXP, nobody can play them until March 1st (conventions) and April 1st (gameday/home). LG you may have to wait to play the NEWEST modules for a couple months if you are just a home player, but there is always something available for you to play. 6 to 10 weeks blackout? Treatment of the core player base like that? Yeesh. Seems like Mark of Zeroes all over again.
kenobi65 02-06-07, 01:53 PM	Why does LG live on? Because LG aren't stupid enough to do boneheaded things like this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=785355 The new modules are "available." But except for that waste of space known as DDXP, nobody can play them until March 1st (conventions) and April 1st (gameday/home). LG you may have to wait to play the NEWEST modules for a couple months if you are just a home player, but there is always something available for you to play. 6 to 10 weeks blackout? Treatment of the core player base like that? Yeesh. Seems like Mark of Zeroes all over again. OK, Bob. We get the picture. You don't like how they do things. Given that this is NOT the XE board, can I request that you drop it here?
Sieylianna 02-06-07, 06:34 PM	OK, Bob. We get the picture. You don't like how they do things. Given that this is NOT the XE board, can I request that you drop it here? I'm amazed that Bob still plays RPGA events considering how much he whines about XE and Living Greyhawk. Ed
Bob_the_Theurge 02-06-07, 06:49 PM	I'm amazed that Bob still plays RPGA events considering how much he whines about XE and Living Greyhawk. Ed I play, and like, LG quite well thank you. I don't play XE primarily because, even though I was prepared to eat the modules and help other people play and enjoy them in order to see what people liked about it, WotC/RPGA are apparently so uninterested in having new players play the campaign that they treated one of my good friends and the region's biggest XE booster, who was trying to arrange modules for a convention, like dirt.
LGMoses 02-06-07, 07:00 PM	Man, I was on such a huge Eberron kick a good while back. Do yaw remember EberronMoses?:tie: I just didn't enjoy running the mods. I got tired of every mod having some sort of wierd new creature with strange abilities. I just didn't enjoy running it as a Judge even though my players thought it was enjoyable. Now I just wish I had somewhere to unload all of these Xen'drik books and adventures I bought for some cash (for more dnd stuff ofcourse). I like the realism and variation provided by LG and its limited system. Characters shouldn't get to choose their equipment from the local shops Dungeon Master's Guide. :yuck: The limited system means every character is different. My players are enjoying LG and they get more excited when they get stuff now and when they level its great. Limited access means getting treasure is a reward, not a shopping trip.
bhale187 02-06-07, 08:21 PM	Now I just wish I had somewhere to unload all of these Xen'drik books and adventures I bought for some cash (for more dnd stuff ofcourse). Ebay, or try posting on the Ebberon regional forums, yahoo has alot of them.