Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Samo 07-20-06, 08:55 AM	Ok, I understand that a Bard is not the best character for staying alive in a campaign. It's BAB, Spells, and Sneaking abilities are second class compared to a fighter, wizard, and rogue, But wouldn't it be a good thing to have a semi-crappy rogue then not having one at all. I believe bards also get a small number of healing spells, making them a semi-crappy cleric as well (minus the turning ability). So why is it that everyone shuns away from playing a bard, when technically it can be one of those characters that can fit into almost any situation?
smerwin29 07-20-06, 08:58 AM	About a year ago I ran a fairly tough module with only 4 players, and three of them were bards (some were multiclassed in various configurations). They did just fine.
lostpike 07-20-06, 09:21 AM	I think the major problem is a bards usefulness and power level in comparison to other classes is just more top heavy. A high level bard is a very scary thing.
Lupo 07-20-06, 09:27 AM	Ok, I understand that a Bard is not the best character for staying alive in a campaign. It's BAB, Spells, and Sneaking abilities are second class compared to a fighter, wizard, and rogue, But wouldn't it be a good thing to have a semi-crappy rogue then not having one at all. I believe bards also get a small number of healing spells, making them a semi-crappy cleric as well (minus the turning ability). So why is it that everyone shuns away from playing a bard, when technically it can be one of those characters that can fit into almost any situation? some reasons against bards: lousy progression as a spellcaster, no "boom" spells, cha as key stat, lg-modules are said to be combat centred (not true for all modules, but if the players at a table concentrate on butchering, it is what they get out of the 5 hours slot, no matter how much role playing opportunities were in it), bad reputation ;). no one takes you serious, no matter what your speciality is! some reasons to play a bard: fairly good selection of weapons, moderate BAB progression, some nice spells, some very powerfull prestige classes, very versatile and flexible builts are possible (i.e. bard/monk/enlightened fist). the problem is, a bard is the optimal "additional" character, look how many cohorts are bards out there. a moderate or better bard makes a moderate party good and a good party exeptional, but a bard alone will rarely shine. ciao martin m. ps: i know and have played with at least four bards, including a bright desert, dwarven bard ;-)
Maesto 07-20-06, 10:07 AM	The problem with playing a bard is that if there's more than one of them at the table, then one character is relatively obsolete. Furthermore, bards are best at making other characters work better. I mean, whilst playing diplomacy can be fun to roleplay with, in combat, it can get really boring to always "inspirational boost, bardsong, haste", especially when you don't get the credit for the kills - it's always the fighter or arcanist that claims the glory.
Lightblade 07-20-06, 10:23 AM	The last table i played with had 2 bards, and my main character has 2 levels of bard (going for F. Lyracist). If you want to play a bard, IMHO, it really helps to take advantage of the non-core content. There are a lot of nice bard spells in the Spell Compendium (ie Inspirational Boost). Also, the feats in Complete Adventurer compliment a bard nicely, as well as the masterwork instrument options, if there's a metaorg in your region that offers them. As to feeling that you do don't contribute to the kills, try this. In a combat, start up a bard song. Often remind people of your song in the form of a "Did you add in Bard Song?" after they announce their attack roll. You'll get a general sense of how many times your allies hit due to your song. If that's the case, write down how much damage they do. If they would have hit w/o the bard song, just jot down the extra 1 or 2 points of damage. You'd be surprised how quickly it adds up.
trollbill 07-20-06, 11:21 AM	I think a well run Bard can be extremely powerful in LG. While combat skills can help a lot, I have seen more than one adventure saved with the use of Charisma based skills where no amount of combat expertise would have helped. Bards are the masters of Charisma based skills.
Mommy was an Orc 07-20-06, 12:10 PM	Ok, I understand that a Bard is not the best character for staying alive in a campaign. It's BAB, Spells, and Sneaking abilities are second class compared to a fighter, wizard, and rogue, But wouldn't it be a good thing to have a semi-crappy rogue then not having one at all. I believe bards also get a small number of healing spells, making them a semi-crappy cleric as well (minus the turning ability). So why is it that everyone shuns away from playing a bard, when technically it can be one of those characters that can fit into almost any situation? Because of how you just described them - why would anyone want to play a semi-crappy character that is only occasionally in the spotlight? Bards are extremely powerful, even without Sublime Chord. Not only do they dominate non-combat with all those skills, they are often indirectly responsible for anywhere from 25% up to 70% of the damage output of the party. They just don't seem like it. There's four main problems with Bards: Most players don't understand math well. A lot of people think a +1 to hit represents +5% additional damage when it usually represents +8-12%. Adding +4 to hit can mean an additional 40% damage output, +2 damage kicks that up to 50%. Have two primary weapon users in the party and you're doing just as much damage as they are at 8th level before you do anything other than Inspire Courage with a MW Lute(and access). Many players won't realize this, even after you explain the math to them. Because Haste/Inspire Courage/Inspire Greatness all stack, the first action of any bard should be to try to do those, roughly in that order unless they're in a really odd party. Now imagine doing that in 150 combats straight. There are ways to do other things, but unless you know exactly why you're doing them, you shouldn't. Does that sound like something you can do? It tends to draw, like a moth to a flame, the players who are okay with people considering them useless even if they are useless. Sure, the best action might be Inspire Courage, but why would the mod writer have put a chandelier in the room if the Bard wasn't meant to swing from it? See enough players like those, and thinking of the Bard as useless isn't that hard to do. And finally, dumb as it is, people forget to add the bonuses you provide to their rolls. Then they blame you for not doing anything in combat. -------- One of the important aspects of playing a Bard is knowing what to do and why you're powerful. If you can throw around math numbers, that will scare off most of the people who make snide comments about bards. If you don't, just ask the DM to announce when people hit because of your bonuses to hit. Add up the damage totals from that and from the damage bonus of Inspire Courage. If you can cast Haste, count the first attack as all from you. Announce the totals at the end of each combat and the end of the mod. Also, I have a tent I made with the various bonuses printed out - this way, when bardsong is active, I put the tent up. I also often hold up the same number of fingers as well to remind people of it. Finally, going first is critical - it means everyone gets your bonuses faster. Improved Initiative is a strong 1st level feat for that reason.
lostpike 07-20-06, 02:47 PM	I found taking one level of marshall late in a bards career is very useful especially if you take the DEX increase...
kenobi65 07-20-06, 02:54 PM	Also, I have a tent I made with the various bonuses printed out - this way, when bardsong is active, I put the tent up. I also often hold up the same number of fingers as well to remind people of it. This is an excellent idea; we do the same thing with bardic music, Bless, etc. in our home game. Also, the bard's player has made up "flash cards" with the effects of Haste, which she passes out when she casts it.
Puggle Halfwine 07-20-06, 03:23 PM	I disagree. A bard's role is the generalist and stopgap- he's not a cleric, not a fighter, not a rogue, not a wizard... but he can do all of those things in a pinch. That said, I think there is a place for the pure combat, stabbing and slashing, singing-is-for-patsies invincible whirling blur of cold steel death... *bard* if you built him correctly. Most don't howveer. A lot of the spells in the Spell Compendium go a long way to accomplishing this.
JamesMaissen 07-20-06, 05:08 PM	Ok, I understand that a Bard is not the best character for staying alive in a campaign. It's BAB, Spells, and Sneaking abilities are second class compared to a fighter, wizard, and rogue, But wouldn't it be a good thing to have a semi-crappy rogue then not having one at all. I believe bards also get a small number of healing spells, making them a semi-crappy cleric as well (minus the turning ability). So why is it that everyone shuns away from playing a bard, when technically it can be one of those characters that can fit into almost any situation? First of all, while the bard CLASS is very mutable after the individual bard makes his choices for skills and spells the specific CHARACTER is no where near as flexible. Were bards able to choose spells known each day like the Spirit Shaman PrC from Complete Divine they would be able to fully utilize their wonderful spell list that they barely can touch upon with a Sorcerer mechanism that's usually balanced by a large number of spells/day. This would, imho, make them a very strong class in the main. Now bard can be played well, but in general suffers both from stereotyping and the random mixing of tables that Living campaigns encounter. Typically other classes makeup for this by specializing a tad more and filling basic roles that in turn require basic supports. A bard fitting into a group is a more tailored action in general though you can attempt the same thing with them, it's just not as successful. Making a bard fit into a basic role (of other classes/archetypes) is a natural reaction to these pressures even if it doesn't turn out well. It's this natural attempting to make them fit into other roles that makes them a square peg in a world of round holes. They will not bring adequate amounts of another's role to properly fill their shoes if they are built to be a generalist. You could overbuild one to take on a specific role (arcane fighter, etc) but not as well as you could turn around and with equivalent ingenuity do so with more typical building blocks. -James
JohnduBois 07-20-06, 05:57 PM	I think that the reason that many people opt not to play bards is the relative lack of cool Prestige Classes that are available as well. There simply aren't many quality ones that can be taken without campaign documentation. Warchanter and Sublime Chord is about it, unless you want to branch out into turf pretty solidly taken by other classes. Now compare that to decent prestige classes for almost every other character type. Making a bard that doesn't just "look like every other bard" is hard, and as a player of a dwarf warchanter, I can attest to that.
Lomiat 07-20-06, 06:12 PM	I've seen a few bards during my time in LG. 1) My friend's Brd/Ftr, headed toward Arcane Archer. Rarely uses his Bardic Music because he almost always adventures with another local bard (#2), but the Brd levels gave him arcane casting (with light armor) and lots of skill points to stack with Ftr on his way to AA. 2) Another friend's Brd4/Mar1. He's the typical boost/support Brd. Does squat on his own, but helps the party immensely (Inspirational Boost and Bardic Music early in every encounter). Hasn't got Haste yet, but has started using Glitterdust. For several levels, too, the party's healing came primarily from the two bards. 3) A higher-level Brd (12th or 13th) who played a metaregional at the same table as my Wiz. Our party fought a demodand, and we were basically getting our butts kicked. The Brd and my Wiz were the only ones to do any damage to the monster before we decided our Greater Invisibilities were running low and it was time to flee. Everyone else got dropped. My Wiz used Assay Resistance to beat the SR and tossed some Magic Missiles. His Brd used Spring Attack and Arcane Strike to hit and stay safe. 4) A woman's BrdX/Ftr1 who did the buffing early and moved to flank with my Rog (which was great). She didn't know all her options, but the simple tactics worked okay. I had to tell her, though, that Mage Armor was no longer a legal Brd spell in 3.5.... And she initially braced when I recommended Inspirational Boost as a replacement, but, then, the obviousness of the spell settled, and she took it. 5) I've got a Brd2 in Highfolk that I wanted to run as a straight Brd to high levels, but who would always have a sort of "arcanist envy" (always wanted to be a Sor/Wiz). He's got Skill Focus: UMD at 1st level, and I got a wand of Lesser Vigor early, too. This gives him much greater versatility, but I think I'm going to have to delay any early selection of feats like: Wand Strike, Dual-Wand Wielder, Obtain Familiar, etc. (all tempting feats)--because it's simply too good to get Improved Init and a 1-level dip in Marshall for the Dex Aura. It's ridiculously math-y, but it's SOOOOO good for a party. And to make my Brd more playable, I want parties to enjoy having him at the table; making everyone better is generally a good start. It's also worth noting (especially at low levels) that Bardic Music has no duration; if the DM will allow you to keep performing, you can carry the music from one encounter into another, possibly one performance throughout an entire module. It might, however, be more than your fellow players can tolerate...
Cynric 07-20-06, 06:59 PM	Bards are very helpful on any table that has twf or Druids. Personally, there is a Bard that my druid regularly adventures with. We do not normally have a BDF, but the damage that comes out of my Animal companion an me significantly increases when the Bard is around and starts singing the Battle hym of Joramy (which my character hates and refers to as the music of the Sheep) I have also seen the same bard break a module wide open with the judicious use of Fascinate and the other Bardic Music stuff.
JohnduBois 07-20-06, 07:20 PM	It's also worth noting (especially at low levels) that Bardic Music has no duration; if the DM will allow you to keep performing, you can carry the music from one encounter into another, possibly one performance throughout an entire module. It might, however, be more than your fellow players can tolerate... Two words: Subsonics feat. :) Also, I'm going to add of songs I've used to either break modules or make things significantly easier with my bard/warchanter: 1. Inspire Courage (obviously) 2. Countersong. Sounds weird, but at higher APL's, it's a great ace in the hole. When the Deathshriekers show up, everybody's happy that they suddenly can't fail Will saves against sonic assaults. 3. Inspire Recklessness. The only time my bard's happy to see a paladin is when the paladin has Spirited Charge. 4. Inspire Toughness. Some evil monks learned the hard way that Diehard and nonlethal damage don't mix well.
DuctShuiTengu 07-20-06, 07:29 PM	Best (worst?) uses of Bard I ever saw was one table where we sorta lucked into our party being imbalanced in a way that worked for the mod. 4 Archers, a Cleric with an astronomical AC, and a Bard. Haste for 4 characters that are going to be getting full attacks every round combined with +2 damage on each attack... well, I'm sure you can figure out how much that added up. And another instance of a Bard managing to fascinate a rather nasty (but stupid) monster and convince it to take a nap. You know, it's amazing how fast big nasty things die when the BDF full power-attacks and coups it with a Scythe. Me, I like the Bard class, but I think a big part of why they don't see much popularity is that, outside of the more social areas, they're hardly ever the ones that really shine. Oh sure, you can point out that fully half of everyone else's damage was a result of a spell or song from the Bard, but it was still everyone else who was hitting the monsters and actually dealing the damage. So, you get people thinking bards are weak because they aren't attacking the monster directly, and you get others who, even if they realize how powerful a Bard can be, don't want to play one because they get a bigger thrill out of hitting the monster for 40 damage than they do from knowing that 50 of the damage that the rest of the party did is because their character is sitting in the back shouting encouragement.
Folly 07-20-06, 07:58 PM	I dislike the image that bards get from being compared to other classes. To me a bard is an entirely different species of class, so how could you compare it to a wizard or fight? The last convention I went to there was a bard visiting from out of region that was straight 12 bard. Alot of people were giving him alot of crap about being "just" a bard. Meanwhile my table was eager to get him to fill out our table. The effect that the bard had for us (archer, rogue, wizard, thuerge, monk) was amasing. He increased the damage of my archer by over 50% because he was providing +6 to hit (haste, bard 3 (inspiration boost), inspire heroics) Hell there was another game inwhich due to miscommunication my friends level 3 bard end up playing with the rogue, archer and wizard at apl 10. And he manage d to pull his weight when considering how he boosted my ranger, and our rogues damage.
Lomiat 07-21-06, 09:57 AM	I've got a Rog/Wiz, headed toward Arcane Trickster, whose brightest moments came in a couple of adventures where the bard and cleric were concentrating on buffs and support: song w/Inspirational Boost, Recitation, Shield Other, and flanking actions. Man, that was great--apart from the fact that there were only 4 of us at the table and the two 7th-level characters were spending most of their actions to buff the 4th- and 5th-level PCs... And as far as Countersong goes... You don't have to wait for Deathshriekers when you keep playing mods full of Harpies. Ah... Countersong. Good stuff.
Japangirl 07-21-06, 04:22 PM	Additionally, while many LG mods are very combat heavy, no one minds when the bard negotiates a 50% decrease in price for things you can haggle over, or fascinate/suggests the bad guy "tell me everything you know about <our mission, your mission, who hired you>". They also get all those pesky gather information checks out of the way. They facilitate combats by making everyone better, and they facilitate plots by finding the plot points. Don't make bards into crappy clerics or crappy rogues- let them be good bards.
Lomiat 07-21-06, 04:38 PM	Additionally, while many LG mods are very combat heavy, no one minds when the bard negotiates a 50% decrease in price for things you can haggle over, or fascinate/suggests the bad guy "tell me everything you know about <our mission, your mission, who hired you>". They also get all those pesky gather information checks out of the way. They facilitate combats by making everyone better, and they facilitate plots by finding the plot points. Don't make bards into crappy clerics or crappy rogues- let them be good bards. Or powerful arcanists! With my wands, I will destroy you! Elias Finch, Bastard of the Tanelorns Half-elf Bard Extraordinnaire (though, seriously, folks, which bard isn't extraordinary?) Devoted of Highfolk .... until they take away that "Devoted" title. You ever notice how the people who gravitate toward positions designing or enforcing the laws are always strict? No leniency whatsoever. I bet they're like that at home, too. All the time... if you know what I mean. How could anyone put up with that? It's not like I ever stopped loving and caring about Highfolk. Mine's no failure of "devotion." It's just that a bard has to travel to gather the stories to inspire his companions, and people tend to tire of the same story repeated all the time...
Japangirl 07-21-06, 04:42 PM	Designing and enforcing laws? What are those? Oh wait . . . nope, still don't really know. The Bandit Kingdoms doesn't really have those. I might have seen a few in the Yeomanry, but I ignored them. Pesky little suckers though.
Paul H 07-22-06, 09:57 AM	Hi O for a Bard to cast Fox's Cunning on my Warmage. (Extra 2 damage per spell)! I like Bards. On another thread someone was asking about Dervish PrC. Swashbuckler/Bard makes good one. Especially if you're a Grey Elf. All that Wpn Finesse & Insightful Strike with your scimitar. Better with Critical Strike cast! Most of other benefits already listed, but.... Who needs boom spells (you get Sound Burst), when you can go invisible & summons swarms, heal, etc. Hold Person good on enemy 'tanks'. I've used Calm Emotions (with my cleric) to 'break' a mod before..... And High Level, there's Sublime Chord. Sure you're 10th lvl before you qualify, but Bards with Arc of Lightning, Cloudkill, Orb spells etc....... :eek: Cheers Paul H
SteveMND 07-24-06, 10:15 AM	but why would the mod writer have put a chandelier in the room if the Bard wasn't meant to swing from it? Um, to provide light? :) Seriously though, I think one of the reasons why -- overall -- there are fewer bards in the campaign is because, frankly, most people haven't seen a really good bard in action. We've all seen a super-effective fighter build do amazing amounts of damage, or a mage's spell single-handedly nerf an opponent, and that makes us think "Cool, I'd like to do that one day too!" Also, very often the bard really excells not when he's doing stuff himself, but rather when making other people's stuff better. For some people, playing that sort of character, where he rarely is the 'hero' on his own, can be unsatisfying. Here in Geoff, bards are a very important aspect of the regional culture, role-playing-wise. As a result, there are more bards at Geoff tables than perhaps most any other region. When our gaming group started back in '01, one of our guys chose a bard to play. He was _very_ good at it, and in time, we learned exactly how impressive a well-designed bard could be (and indeed, his PC eventually rettired from the campaign to be the Duke's new High Chancellor ;) ). And yes, at higher levels, bards can be scary good... :D
jokem 07-28-06, 03:23 PM	I think that the reason that many people opt not to play bards is the relative lack of cool Prestige Classes that are available as well. There simply aren't many quality ones that can be taken without campaign documentation. Warchanter and Sublime Chord is about it, unless you want to branch out into turf pretty solidly taken by other classes. Now compare that to decent prestige classes for almost every other character type. Making a bard that doesn't just "look like every other bard" is hard, and as a player of a dwarf warchanter, I can attest to that. I have a Bard/Cleric who is now a Mystic Theurge... Although he does not get really powerful spells, he can cast more spells than anyone else of equal level... And healing? Wowee.
jokem 07-28-06, 03:25 PM	Um, to provide light? :) Seriously though, I think one of the reasons why -- overall -- there are fewer bards in the campaign is because, frankly, most people haven't seen a really good bard in action. We've all seen a super-effective fighter build do amazing amounts of damage, or a mage's spell single-handedly nerf an opponent, and that makes us think "Cool, I'd like to do that one day too!" Also, very often the bard really excells not when he's doing stuff himself, but rather when making other people's stuff better. For some people, playing that sort of character, where he rarely is the 'hero' on his own, can be unsatisfying. Here in Geoff, bards are a very important aspect of the regional culture, role-playing-wise. As a result, there are more bards at Geoff tables than perhaps most any other region. When our gaming group started back in '01, one of our guys chose a bard to play. He was _very_ good at it, and in time, we learned exactly how impressive a well-designed bard could be (and indeed, his PC eventually rettired from the campaign to be the Duke's new High Chancellor ;) ). And yes, at higher levels, bards can be scary good... :D Mine cast silent image to block out all the light. The rest of us had mass darkvision cast. Kind of knocked the legs out from under our opponents.
jokem 07-28-06, 03:27 PM	no "boom" spells, Shadow evocation?
Necrochaos 07-29-06, 11:37 AM	Glitterdust, Tasha's Laughter, Grease, enough said. A lot of mods can be altered with grease to get rid of the bad guys item or weapons. The bard has access to some powerful control spells at lower level making the class very helpful.
Silverlute 07-29-06, 12:05 PM	My main character in LG is a multiclass bard (currently level 11). From what I can see of the way this thread is going, no one is taking into account what a bard can do when made properly. Everybody goes to a con and sees some fighter hybrid that can kill 4 bearded devils a round, but with so few bards, almost no one ever gets to see one of the musically inclined that's been made like that. Personally, I give (to the whole party) +5 init, +3 to hit, +2 damage, +5 on dex based checks, backup healing, some buff spells that you'll never see a wizard or cleric cast, and next level (12) I'll be able to throw cones of cold into the mix (CL10, 5th level spells). Pretty much everybody I play with is struck with amazement the first time they see me keep pulling more and more out of my character to help the party. I guess what I'm saying here is that to see what bards do, you have to see a good bard. Focusing on one thing almost always makes a character better, but only bards can get away with focusing on backup - they're the only ones that do it well enough. And believe me - it may not sound all that fun to play, but once you give so many buffs that the party is tripping over them and can still take all your normal actions, it gets pretty flippin' awesome. Oh, btw - if you ever see a gnome who goes by the name of "Silverlute" at a con, ask for a performance. I guarantee you'll never hear a better song.
Lomiat 07-31-06, 06:42 PM	If you're willing to spend the TUs, I've learned that a Bard can also significantly break the GP curve for his/her level. A Highfolk Bard/Marshall is apparently making more money with Performances after each regional module than in the modules themselves. I expect the PC has the Marshall aura to add to Charisma, but the player told me the base Perform check (at 4th level) is somewhere around 30, allowing his PC to make 3d6 Platinum pieces after each adventure... twice. This also makes the character powerful for its ability to hand out items...
JohnduBois 07-31-06, 08:35 PM	I don't see how a PC is using Perform to make more money that he/she gets in the mod unless he/she isn't making full money in mods. If you max out the Perform check and the money roll, you make 420 gp in 2 TUs. That's less than cap for an APL 2 Core mod. Given that you're only doing this after a regional adventure in your home region, you'd have to be playing at APL 2 AND get less than half the available gold in the adventure in order to make more money per TU by performing than you are in the adventure. Now, that's not to say that performing post-mod isn't a great idea if the bard is your secondary/tertiary character. I'm just saying that you can't really make more performing than you can adventuring.
Mommy was an Orc 07-31-06, 10:00 PM	If you're willing to spend the TUs, I've learned that a Bard can also significantly break the GP curve for his/her level. A Highfolk Bard/Marshall is apparently making more money with Performances after each regional module than in the modules themselves. I expect the PC has the Marshall aura to add to Charisma, but the player told me the base Perform check (at 4th level) is somewhere around 30, allowing his PC to make 3d6 Platinum pieces after each adventure... twice. Assuming max rolls, that's 36 Platinum pieces. 2 TUs for 360 gold and no XP. The only way that makes sense is if he's playing oldstyle D&D where 1 pp = 20 gp.
Lomiat 08-01-06, 10:24 AM	Ah, yeah... So I got the math wrong, operating from heresay. The point, however, remains valid: This character (with TUs to burn) is skyrocketing ahead of his gp/level ratio. If any of you know about Highfolk and their new "Devoted" characters, you understand that those PCs have limited options and, generally, end up with more TUs than they can spend. The player simply opted to use those TUs to make some gp for his character.
CSHunt68 08-01-06, 10:56 AM	Making gold for no TU cost + XP penalty for multi-classing = your key to wealth in LG. :)
clannagh 08-04-06, 01:46 AM	One LG disadvantage to bards is the bias towards combat in the mods. Diplomacising the gang of cutthroats into letting you go may get full experience but you loose access to that funky +5 vorpal greatsword or whatever the bandit leader is carrying.
Cardinal Teplin 08-04-06, 09:00 AM	I suspect part of the problem is the somewhat ambigious nature of social skills in LG. When you're playing with a home DM, you get to know what is possible and what isn't. In LG, you have to adapt to a new DM, and thus a new set of rules/expectations, every time you play. Add to this that most LG adventures are fairly combat-heavy and designed to give the same rewards whether you have good social skills or not, and you've weakened one of the main themes of the class. That said, I've played with plenty of effective bards, and I don't see them as particularly rare. They may be rare where you play, but globally I doubt they are the least common PHB class. H
solbergb 08-04-06, 12:07 PM	Bards can contribute just fine in combat, so whether or not a campaign is combat focused isn't really the point. They're pretty good at whatever skills they focus in, but like rogues, they will not have enough skill points to be a diplomat/linguist AND a walking encyclopedia AND a scout AND a tumble/balance/climbing machine. (it is possible to spend most or all of the bard skill points on combat skills. Most just don't choose to) They just have to know what they're able to contribute and not try to be something they are not. A bard build that really works at it can be a decent melee or archer, but most are third string, only able to contribute after the haste and bardsong have gone off. They are also fair primary casters - but if that's all they do they'll seem weak too, because they'll run out of slots and have slightly lower save DC's (they get confusion the same time the wiz does, but for them it is level 2). In combat, without any real effort in the build, the most effective thing a bard can usually do is spend a round buffing the party, maybe two rounds. Some people are tempermentally unsuited for doing this in most combats, and their bards give the others a bad rap unless they're a rare build designed to really be an eldritch-knight type fighter or a themed enchanter (it can be done. It just requires a total focus on feats and attributes and spell selection and equipment spending with perfect synergy)
paigeoliver 08-07-06, 04:11 PM	I think bards a re great. I have played with a lot of them. Both dedicated and multiclassed. One thing I would seriously suggest is that every bard also look at 1-5 levels of the marshall class. Those classes multiclass wonderfully and honestly you would be hard pressed to pick the WRONG marshall auras. Your party can use them all (although I have never seen a "determined caster" marshall). About selecting marshall auras. Do not select both the wisdom and dexterity auras. One is initiative while the other is spot/listen. You can't have them both up at once, so pick one and go for it. Honestly I would suggest the wisdom marshall, ash their are too many iniative marshalls out there already (my own dex/int/trip marshall has ended up paired with iniative marshalls at least a half dozen times now). Consider the outcast champion class (half-humans only) from races of destiny. It is also a party booster and provides some great bonuses in the form of will saves and transforming aids from +2 to +4. I had a (female) marshall who was working towards beastmaster to be a batrider (dire bat companion), but I got reincarnated as a half-orc (originally human, then high elf, the half orc), and I realized what a great outcast champion I would be. With that character I realized that I didn't NEED the flying mount to be effective (spirited charge character with tunnel riding), since my (special certed) horse I picked up was functional about 90 percent of the time after I picked up tunnel riding. Remember that you can make jump checks as part of a charge and horses have awesome jump checks (especially certed horses and animal companions). When you combine that with tunnel riding (it takes two feats, tunnel fighting AND tunnel riding)m you can usually hop, skip and jump your way over the difficlut terrain and 5' corridors. When selecting marshall auras I would suggest making sure you have at least ONE combat aura. (charge, trip, or flank), one pre-combat aura (dex or wis), and that any other auras be noncombat (INT and CHA are my favorites). As for the major marshall auras. I would first point you towards the damage aura (works for everything, even spells), the increased movement aura, and the armor class aura. Those will be useful towards the most characters. I have seen a lot of people with the DR aura, but I don't think that one is all that hot.
Shieldhart91 08-08-06, 09:29 AM	I think the reason most people don't play a Bard is because they always want to excel at one thing. I, myself, always go in for the quick kill. My friend rains hell with Fireball, Scorching Ray, and Burning Hands. Bards? They're generalist. Not good at one thing- except support rolls. They're great classes- that Wand of CLW will help. A lot.
Mommy was an Orc 08-08-06, 09:49 AM	But Bards do excel at one thing in combat - boosting people in a way that usually means the Bard is indirectly responsible for at least a character's worth of damage, if not more - if played properly. It is the playing properly and indirectly responsible parts that get Bards as a class such a bad rep. I think the reason most people don't play a Bard is because they always want to excel at one thing. I, myself, always go in for the quick kill. My friend rains hell with Fireball, Scorching Ray, and Burning Hands. Bards? They're generalist. Not good at one thing- except support rolls. They're great classes- that Wand of CLW will help. A lot.
ithardin 08-08-06, 11:31 AM	My brother and I have PCs who are "The Amazing Macionis Brothers." Our first three adventures in LG were with another bard and a dwarven cleric who hated the three of us :) We made it through three intro modules with a party of 4.
solbergb 08-08-06, 07:05 PM	But Bards do excel at one thing in combat - boosting people in a way that usually means the Bard is indirectly responsible for at least a character's worth of damage, if not more - if played properly. It is the playing properly and indirectly responsible parts that get Bards as a class such a bad rep. Yeah. I now have a second TPK-averted-by-bard story after last weekend. My first story involved my sister (caster/support oriented bard) and a slightly higher level bard (archer oriented) fighting alone against most of the encounter after the entire party had become incapacitated with strength drain poison from flying monsters. My sister's bard sang and kept the archer on his feet with healing, while the archer recast mirror image from time to time and plinked away, boosted by the +2/+2 bardsong. The battle was long, but the bad guys could not put down the archer (and weren't intelligent enough to target the healer). The second story is from Fane of the Drow. The battle lasted about 15 rounds, and the self-avowed "noncombat bard" was the only party member able to fight the whole time, drew most of the heat and even killed a few bad guys directly. It can be summed up by just describing the scene in one round: Party: three unconscious, horse unconsious, BDF "held", very tough animal companion on its last few hitpoints....and Bobo the Bard. A measure of how desparate things were is a tiny viper familiar was doing a coup de grace on a color-sprayed mook because they didn't want him waking up next to the ko-ed sorcerer. Bad guys remaining (several had been defeated): Five mooks with fort-save effects and the boss who individually was more than a match for the bard on her own. Of the bad guys defeated in earlier rounds, all but one were defeated either by direct bard action (he actually made attack rolls! none of his old friends believe him) or defeat was greatly facilitated by glitterdusts cast by him. The party won. The bard would not go down, healed and inspired the dog, and when the party members started recovering from bad effects, they went into battle fighting about 2 levels above their normal capability.
Sect 08-14-06, 01:58 AM	I won't say anything bad about bards, since I haven't met anyone else who's made a 41 perform check on a deity's minor artifact while rolling below ten on the die. Favored souls, on the other hand...
Sect 08-14-06, 02:08 AM	Assuming max rolls, that's 36 Platinum pieces. 2 TUs for 360 gold and no XP. The only way that makes sense is if he's playing oldstyle D&D where 1 pp = 20 gp. Actually, that brings up an interesting arguement that my friend, the bard who tooted a spectacular performance on the aforementioned deity's artifact, had brought up. I believe that, in one of the core books, it has a chart of gaining gold via performance checks (perhaps I might be thinking of the wrong thing, but oh well). Once you get to a certain level, you start attracting divine attention, as evidenced by a certain elven bard by the name of Ye'Cind. So, why does a performance of 30+ only net 3d6 platinum? Shouldn't you get visits from some divine patron such as, to pull a random god outta a Hat of Disguise, Olidammara, with him saying "You da man!"? Why can't the guy who can regularly make 50 some checks get his due, or at the very least his own estate? ... All right, I'm done?
copper_wyrmling 08-14-06, 02:26 AM	Yeah. I now have a second TPK-averted-by-bard story after last weekend. My favourite TPK (or at least PC kill) -averted-by-bard stories are: (1) APL 10 party (cleric, fighter, arcane trickster, bard): we met a sea hag who'd put quite a lot of effort into boosting the save DC of her Evil Eye (fear effect, Will save or be dazed for a week or so, Fort save or die). Both the cleric and the fighter made their saves vs instant death only due to the Inspire Courage boost against fear effects :D (2) APL 4 party, we met a harpy and a minotaur, and everyone but the druid and the bard failed their Will saves vs the harpy's Fascinate. Countersong saved the day. There are others, involving more direct action by the bard (Shatter on the club of a stone giant who was about to squish the barbarian, UMD'ing wands of magic missile against a mummy when everyone else was paralysed), but these are the cases I've seen where bardsong completely changed the outcome of a battle.
Silverlute 08-15-06, 03:42 PM	I won't say anything bad about bards, since I haven't met anyone else who's made a 41 perform check on a deity's minor artifact while rolling below ten on the die. Thanks, Sect, but it was a 45 when I rolled a 9 - and remember, Perform (stringed instruments) is my primary, not the one I was rolling there (I'd have gotten 59 with my harp). :D I love GenCon.
Mattastrophic 08-16-06, 09:56 PM	Actually, that brings up an interesting arguement that my friend, the bard who tooted a spectacular performance on the aforementioned deity's artifact, had brought up. I believe that, in one of the core books, it has a chart of gaining gold via performance checks (perhaps I might be thinking of the wrong thing, but oh well). Once you get to a certain level, you start attracting divine attention, as evidenced by a certain elven bard by the name of Ye'Cind. So, why does a performance of 30+ only net 3d6 platinum? Shouldn't you get visits from some divine patron such as, to pull a random god outta a Hat of Disguise, Olidammara, with him saying "You da man!"? Why can't the guy who can regularly make 50 some checks get his due, or at the very least his own estate? Oh, if only that were true... -Matt aka Lord Solaufyn Ithilnelle, grey elf Virtuoso now pushing +60...
Mattastrophic 08-16-06, 10:18 PM	But Bards do excel at one thing in combat - boosting people in a way that usually means the Bard is indirectly responsible for at least a character's worth of damage, if not more - if played properly. As much as I love bards, I'm starting to realize, though, that if another class, particularly a cleric, focuses solely on support, he can out-buff the bard. Though bards can buff, clerics can buff better. We just don't as many buffing clerics. For example: Righteous Wrath of the Faithful - extra attack, +3 to hit, +3 damage (melee) (morale) Recitation - +2 to hit, saves, AC (luck) Mass Conviction - +2 to +4 to all saves (morale) Heroes' Feast - immunities, bonus hp Then start tacking on all the OTHER cleric buffs, like Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement, Resist Energy, Death Ward, etc, etc, etc. Throw them all together, and the bard has just been outdone. Combine that with a cleric's ability to use Divine Insight (too strong, btw) to take on LG's typically non-scaled social rolls, and suddenly a bard isn't even necessary out of combat. It's sad, and I don't like it, but it's true. -Matt Player of two bardic types, fyi.
Iswald 08-17-06, 09:40 AM	Though bards can buff, clerics can buff better. We just don't [see?] as many buffing clerics. For example: Righteous Wrath of the Faithful - extra attack, +3 to hit, +3 damage (melee) (morale) Recitation - +2 to hit, saves, AC (luck) Mass Conviction - +2 to +4 to all saves (morale) Heroes' Feast - immunities, bonus hp Then start tacking on all the OTHER cleric buffs, like Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement, Resist Energy, Death Ward, etc, etc, etc. Throw them all together, and the bard has just been outdone. Combine that with a cleric's ability to use Divine Insight (too strong, btw) to take on LG's typically non-scaled social rolls, and suddenly a bard isn't even necessary out of combat. This is basicly all I do with my cleric, plus healing. Except that mass conviction (and conviction) is limited and he needs another level for heroes' feast. If I can't do healing or buffing, my rounds tend to be wasted moving around or attacking ineffectively. But, even though I'm spending time buffing the party, the group as a whole is still much more effective if there is a bard along too. Righteous Wrath only works in melee and doesn't increase speed. I have to use Quick March (limited) to help people move around and I can't usually get the whole group when I need to use it. Haste is a much better spell, though the two spells can work together with some overlapping. If I know that there will be a bard song going that's as good or better than Righteous Wrath, then I'm free to use some other spell to support the group, such as Stalwart Pact.
flametounge 08-17-06, 02:50 PM	Yeah, Claron is a buff cleric. 2nd Level gets all the stat+4 spells, plant domain gets barkskin, and with a longsword at +7 attack bonus and 19 AC he's not done when out of spells...so nice.
Drezden 08-18-06, 10:39 PM	The point is that when you have a buffing Cleric, you don't need a Bard - the buffer role is filled. A full table is a zero sum game - sure a Bard could be useful - if we could add him and take no one else away. But if you have a productive 5 person team being amplified by the buffing Cleric, you are set. Adding a Bard - by taking one of the other 5 characters hurts the table, it doesn't help them. Now, if you have a few dead weight PCs, sure take them away and add a Bard to make the productive PCs better. Daren
Mommy was an Orc 08-19-06, 01:16 AM	A buffing Cleric in no way replaces a Bard. In certain specific circumstances it can be an okay substitute. They've got problems: Their buffs don't work well on ranged attacks. If you have an archer in the party... They require spells - dispelable, short range, very short duration, and can be readied against. Bards have supernatural effects that work on anyone in hearing distance. Cleric buffs don't stack with other clerics. Recitation is a great spell - because it stacks with Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness, not that it replaces it. I'd rather have +5 to hit/+4 damage at 7th level than +2 to hit, +1 damage, wouldn't you? Bards are actually good at making a wide range of skill checks repeatedly. Sure, Clerics make the 1st check with Divine Insight, but a lot of DMs require two diplomacy checks in the course of an encounter as an example. And honestly, blowing 2nd level spells to ensure charisma based skill checks is going to end badly. Bard bonuses to hit/damage are a lot higher than that of Clerics. Especially when there's a buffing cleric in the party. Bards finally have some game-breaking special musics - I've broken two BBEG combats this year by my bard using Countersong - BBEG was supposed to use Suggestion at will on the most susceptible Fighter. At other tables, people died. We waltzed through the final combats. ---- Sure, a Bard isn't a great substitute for a Cleric. But if you already have a Cleric in your party, a buffing Cleric isn't a great substitute for a Bard. The point is that when you have a buffing Cleric, you don't need a Bard - the buffer role is filled. A full table is a zero sum game - sure a Bard could be useful - if we could add him and take no one else away. But if you have a productive 5 person team being amplified by the buffing Cleric, you are set. Adding a Bard - by taking one of the other 5 characters hurts the table, it doesn't help them. Now, if you have a few dead weight PCs, sure take them away and add a Bard to make the productive PCs better. Daren
Drezden 08-19-06, 03:19 AM	I'd rather have 1 Buffer and 5 producers. And a high level (11th+) Cleric who Buffs (RWofF, Hero's Feast) just blows away a Bard - since they can drop a lot of heals and a host of other qualities too. When you have 5 producers, no one is going to be readying ANYTHING against the Buffer - they are going to be getting killed by the producers. If there is a readied action it will go against an offensive caster like a wiz or sorc. Hero's Feast (immunity to poison and fear) by itself will almost certaintly allow you to break more encounters than anything most bards will ever do. E.g. "We would have never made the Frightful Prescence DC of that Dragon - thank God for Hero's Feast." Daren
clik_ml 08-19-06, 04:54 AM	Hero's Feast (immunity to poison and fear) by itself will almost certaintly allow you to break more encounters than anything most bards will ever do. Does that include when Bards cast Heroes' Feast? I make the assumption that most high level bards are going sublime chord, because they would be almost crazy not to (exceptions being warchanters for one, who have their own set of unique buffs). That being the case, it's not a bad bet that they're gonna aim for that spell (my bard will, in any case). The cleric and bard have different arrays of buffs, and they both have strong merits which are unique to their classes. I would totally rather have both than just one. At low to mid APLs the bard is a gimme as the superior source of buffs. Inspire courage just humbles any buffs clerics are likely to be throwing down for APLs 2-6. I often see meleers using power attack to turn the bardic music from +2/2 atk/dmg into +6 damage. At low to mid levels that is a pretty huge buff which the cleric doesn't have in his pants. Countersong doesn't come up often, but when it does, it totally saves the day. Recitation doesn't come online until 7th level for the clerics, and it is their closest buff that is comparable to inspire courage. Trouble is that it doesn't get used as much since it is just once or twice a day for the cleric, instead of all day long for bards. For my bard I pretty much never feel that I have to save my buffs for the big fight even in those mods I've had with tons of combat all in one day. Heck, I sometimes pre-emptively throw on a music buff just in case of combat. It's not like I am gonna run out of them. At really high APL you finally start seeing stuff like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, which Mattastrophic was being waaaaaay too generous with what that brings to the table. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful - extra attack, +3 to hit, +3 damage (melee) (morale) I call B.S. You get +1 morale to attack and 1d8 temporary hit points. Mass Aid, pretty much with 30' range and fatigue after the duration expires. On the rare chance that there is another party member who worships your same deity, *then* they get a nice array of buffs akin to [false life+inspire courage+haste (but stacks with haste!)], but that ain't often and it sure isn't the whole party. And it's a friggin level 7 spell. It had better be that good or else I'd have far more entertainment with scuplted antilife shells or somesuch. The only reason a cleric can at all keep up on the buffs at high APL is largely due to Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and Heroes' Feast i.e. the long duration buffs which become low enough level that he can pop them all on at the start of each day. The buffer/producer dichotomy is a little hinky. The buffers can also produce (it's rare that I see the need for more than 3 rounds of buffs... possibly because bard buffs cover the whole party instead of having to tag one by one with cleric buffs), and not all of the producers are affected by buffs equally. The casters might not benefit much at all, and archers, as Mommy Was an Orc noted, are not really benefitting as much from the cleric. Having stacking sources of buffs can be especially helpful when there are critters that are beyond the scope of much of the party (ACs near 30 at APLs 6-8 come to mind... stone giant, thaksor, advanced hound archons in full plate). I've been in a fair number of combats where almost everyone had to become a buffer to take down an enemy by attacking to assist the main damage dealer. If we had *both* a bard and buffing cleric throwing down the bonuses then at least 2 more producers could have joined in the fracas and sped things up tremendously. If you do swear religiously to the 5 producer + 1 buffer notion, then you'd be nearly crazy to take a cleric as the buffer over a bard. Clerics do have a list of buffs as long as my leg, but until you are in really high APL, then they aren't preparing them all, and they certainly don't have time to cast them all, and they aren't even all applicable to certain combats. The biggest drawback by far is that many of the cleric buffs are not party-wide. The bard can just pop off a haste then inspirationally boosted courage and you're set. The rest of their rounds can be spent being a producer as well. - Erik ML
copper_wyrmling 08-19-06, 05:56 AM	At really high APL you finally start seeing stuff like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, which Mattastrophic was being waaaaaay too generous with what that brings to the table. I call B.S. You get +1 morale to attack and 1d8 temporary hit points. Mass Aid, pretty much with 30' range and fatigue after the duration expires. On the rare chance that there is another party member who worships your same deity, *then* they get a nice array of buffs akin to [false life+inspire courage+haste (but stacks with haste!)], but that ain't often and it sure isn't the whole party. And it's a friggin level 7 spell. It had better be that good or else I'd have far more entertainment with scuplted antilife shells or somesuch. You have some good points, but you're wrong here. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful was massively overhauled in the Spell Compendium. As Mattastrophic said, it now gives an extra melee attack (as Haste, but doesn't stack), and a +3 morale bonus to attack and damage on melee attacks, to ALL allies, not just those who worship your deity. It's also only a L5 spell, not L7. My cleric refers to it as the "bard-in-a-box" spell. If there's actually a bard in the party, she'll let them do their thing: if there are a lot of tanks and no bard, she'll prep a Righteous Wrath.
clik_ml 08-19-06, 06:50 AM	Damn you spell compendium- you got me again! Well now that is fairly sweet for a level 5 spell. I send a massive frown down upon all the level 9+ clerics I've played with who weren't casting that spell like it's their job (never seen one cast it even). Because quite frankly that should be their job. As a more enlighted and quickly corrected Clik (thanks copper) I will definitely grant that at high levels a cleric is trumping the bard. APL 2-8, Bards for the win. APL 10-16, Clerics for the win.
Mommy was an Orc 08-19-06, 11:25 AM	I'd rather have 1 Buffer and 5 producers. And a high level (11th+) Cleric who Buffs (RWofF, Hero's Feast) just blows away a Bard - since they can drop a lot of heals and a host of other qualities too. Well, I'd rather have the more effective party, but if you want an inferior one, up to you. Because a Bard's abilities stack with your cleric, one Bard means at 9th+ that he should up the damage of your two weapon users by about 45% each because he's adding an additional +4 to hit and +1 damage that they can't add. He can also up your single Cleric by 2 caster levels when he's buffing in the morning - when your 10th level Cleric is casting 12th or 16th level...hmm, where are we going to find that extra 4th level spell... In other words, he generates his own individual producer if you have two weapon users in your party. The problem for a cleric isn't that the class isn't a very powerful one, the problem is that you don't need 2 clerics to cast Recitation. People have made this argument about all sorts of classes - you don't need a Wizard because a Cleric with Domain Spontaneity and the right domains is a 'Wizard'. You don't need a BDF because given a round, a Cleric can cast Divine Power, etc...
Samwise 08-19-06, 01:26 PM	I'l also add that 5 producers is usually redundant. Either they can't get into combat, or whatever they would attack is already dead after 2 or 3 damage producers unload on it. All too often a table is short that one extra support PC needed for a particular adventure.
Drezden 08-19-06, 02:17 PM	Andy, 1. Your numbers are WAY OFF. At very high APLs - especially after all the pre-buffs have been cast (and factoring in the 1 buffer casting in combat) - people hit so frequently that an additional +4 to hit is NOT adding 45% to damage. Some high level characters also can't convert it to PA either - because they are PA up to or close to limit - and still hitting all the time. When your BDF is already hitting all the time while max power attacking (like Sol) the extra +4 is redundant. Sometimes even negating a miss only means the monster dies on the 3rd hit, instead of the 4th. Which - if the BDF has no other targets within range - means NO added damage. 2. Redundant is nice - that means the fights end that much sooner and less bad guys get to act. 3. More Effective? Come watch my main party play (the 5+1 buffer party). We have walked over every Core Special and Interactive we played. Fights are normally over in 1 to 1.5 rounds. 6 Combat Core Specials have a TOTAL of 9 rounds of combat. Really can't do much better than that. I have seem similiar results from other similarly constituted tables - ex. Core Special I judged a few weeks ago that you played (lower APL) at. In any event, I am not even sure how much utility this debate has since most LG tables don't have 5 producers - especially if you are mustering randomly at a con. And there is no debate that adding an additional effective bard on top of a buffing Cleric, to replace a non-producer is good. Daren Well, I'd rather have the more effective party, but if you want an inferior one, up to you. Because a Bard's abilities stack with your cleric, one Bard means at 9th+ that he should up the damage of your two weapon users by about 45% each because he's adding an additional +4 to hit and +1 damage that they can't add. He can also up your single Cleric by 2 caster levels when he's buffing in the morning - when your 10th level Cleric is casting 12th or 16th level...hmm, where are we going to find that extra 4th level spell... In other words, he generates his own individual producer if you have two weapon users in your party. The problem for a cleric isn't that the class isn't a very powerful one, the problem is that you don't need 2 clerics to cast Recitation. People have made this argument about all sorts of classes - you don't need a Wizard because a Cleric with Domain Spontaneity and the right domains is a 'Wizard'. You don't need a BDF because given a round, a Cleric can cast Divine Power, etc...
solbergb 08-24-06, 07:51 PM	Another thing to think about is that bards bring the folks "playing up" with melee/archer type characters into the "at APL" range for hitting and damage. Thus turning a "nonproducer" into a "producer". Most of why my sorceress's cohort is a bard is tied to the fact that she plays in conventions where I don't know anybody and where 4-5 person unbalanced tables are fairly common (such things happen to her more than all my other characters put together). One table was 4 person and became 3 after the first encounter. We got through it but *sheesh*. What happened at those tables before I got leadership was that Olivia would have about twice the "burn rate" on her spells (combats lasted longer, and holes in party roles had to be plugged with spells out of combat too) and we'd often "run dry" about 2/3 through a "all in one day" type module. Plus things took long enough that just finishing was a problem. With the bard at the table, those tables perform a lot better. I've got two characters to play "sword and shield" for the party, and with one doing setup and the other doing buffing, even the most inept warrior can contribute, and if they're actually half decent, I only need one "producer" functioning every round to get through all the conflicts. (sometimes that is Olivia - but the spell burn is higher than if I can do it with other party members). I'm pretty sure the bard prevented a TPK in her very first encounter (or at least...olivia gets away while everyone else dies) and she's had two mods we never would have finished without her (the first one, where we lost our "playing down cavalry tank" due to another game running long and went from strong 10 to very weak, undermanned 10, and the second where the contributors were good, but balance was lacking and in any given fight we had only two members doing damage - the rest were holding off the monsters and keeping the party alive - or getting eaten heh) There's no feat I could have chosen that would have helped either table more. I'd also rate her contribution above that of any other cohort I could have chosen. Both times the bard was playing way out of her depth (3 levels below APL, plus crappy equipment and attributes) and yet made the rest of the party function.
The_Jester 08-25-06, 02:46 AM	Query: Originally Posted by Lightblade Also, the feats in Complete Adventurer compliment a bard nicely, as well as the masterwork instrument options, if there's a metaorg in your region that offers them. Originally Posted by Mommy was an Orc ...than Inspire Courage with a MW Lute(and access). Why do you need access to buy masterwork instruments? Is this in some errata or documentation? IIRC, masterwork instruments are in the PHB in the Goods and Services section, which is open at character creation.
The_Jester 08-25-06, 02:47 AM	(previous was posted but I never saw a reply prior to mass-delete)
clik_ml 08-25-06, 08:15 AM	In Complete Adventurer there are additional options for bards who use masterwork instruments. Basically tweaking the bonuses for bardic music +1 here for -1 there and so forth. A popular one is the masterwork lute for +1 bard level for purposes of figuring out the bonuses on bardic music abilites (so among other things, a level 7 bard using a mw lute can get +2 inspire courage, which usually comes at level 8). The access is needed to make use of those special optional bonuses.
GreatSiron 08-25-06, 10:30 PM	Has anyone tried using a whip to trip with a bard? They are the only class automatically proficent with it, and you can trip from 15 ft away, which is good for a class without a lot of hit points. As a bonus, since Combat Expertise is a presiquite for Warchanter, I figure I can pick up Improved Trip. However, my weapon focus will probably be my shortbow or my longsword, not the whip.
Mommy was an Orc 08-26-06, 12:00 PM	My 10 Str Bard actually tripped a vampire. I carry about 3 of them. Another good use is get your UMD score up real high, buy a scroll of True Strike, and then do a Disarm attack... Has anyone tried using a whip to trip with a bard? They are the only class automatically proficent with it, and you can trip from 15 ft away, which is good for a class without a lot of hit points.
duhtroll 08-28-06, 07:48 PM	I have seen several people play bards. Unfortunately I have never been the slightest bit impressed by anyone playing any bard, barring the diplomacy monkey with the +54 to end all encounters before they start. (which was not fun either, and that had to include marshal) I really would like to see bards do well. I just never have, and am very disappointed. I'd take almost anything but a bard in most cases, even a straight fighter. At least rangers can track and shoot stuff. Buffing aside, even *if* they were as good as clerics, they don't "produce" as well as other classes when it comes to dealing damage. Of course in LG, the same can be said about rogues who always end up fighting constructs and undead. ;) Just my $0.02. I'd love to play a bard in LG, but there's too much of a time commitment to play a PC that doesn't offer much as far as specialty. "Making everyone else a bit better" doesn't help much when it's you and the BBEG left standing.
Mommy was an Orc 08-28-06, 10:01 PM	I'd love to play a bard in LG, but there's too much of a time commitment to play a PC that doesn't offer much as far as specialty. "Making everyone else a bit better" doesn't help much when it's you and the BBEG left standing. Maybe you end up in those situations of you and the BBEG because you didn't have a bard? ;) Sure, you weren't impressed by the job the bard was doing, but do you die more often when they're around?
duhtroll 08-30-06, 06:56 PM	Actually, I have only ever died once in any living game. That was when the GM had 6 of the 7 resident baddies charge, yes, charge my PC while ingoring the other 5 of the party that were within 10-15' of me. It wasn't even one of those events that said they were supposed to kill one PC (which writers should be shot for doing that - no one would ever ignore 5 other party members without some other type of knowledge of the party -- or metagaming, which it was in this case) I will personally buy dinner for the person who can show me a bard that is as effective as the iconic builds (not uber, just good solid builds) at a LG table. Someone prove me wrong. Please. Maybe you end up in those situations of you and the BBEG because you didn't have a bard? ;) Sure, you weren't impressed by the job the bard was doing, but do you die more often when they're around?
Mommy was an Orc 08-31-06, 12:54 AM	Actually, I have only ever died once in any living game. That was when the GM had 6 of the 7 resident baddies charge, yes, charge my PC while ingoring the other 5 of the party that were within 10-15' of me. It wasn't even one of those events that said they were supposed to kill one PC (which writers should be shot for doing that - no one would ever ignore 5 other party members without some other type of knowledge of the party -- or metagaming, which it was in this case) I will personally buy dinner for the person who can show me a bard that is as effective as the iconic builds (not uber, just good solid builds) at a LG table. Someone prove me wrong. Please. Just have the bard, in every combat, cast or do Haste, Inspire Courage, and Inspire Greatness in roughly that order. Every combat. With the spell Harmonize, a Bard can get all three off in 2 rounds of combat. Now every time someone swings, calculate what percentage of the damage was done by the Bard. Have the DM announce when the Bard was responsible for a hit. The Bard gets all the damage from that hit. If there's a hit and the Bard wasn't responsible, then just add the damage he generated from Bardsong. If you have a 5-6 person party, you should find out that the supposedly 'ineffective' bard is responsible for about a fourth of the damage the party is dishing out every fight. My Bard was actually responsible for a third of the *hits* once in a 6 person party. Yes, if you have Daren's souped up combat builds at a high level, there's issues. Have solid iconic builds and the bard does more than fine.
Drezden 08-31-06, 02:33 AM	As much as I hate it, I have to agree with Andy. :) Geesh - 2 times in a week is a record. A Buffer Bard can really amp up the damage for a productive 5 person table. This is especially true at low and mid levels - especially once haste comes into play. Haste is just so awesome at APL6 and 8 - before most people have Boots of Speed. The extra attack and then additional bonuses from the Bard songs will make a big difference. You just need to make sure you have a few primary damage dealers. You also don't want to just have a party of ONLY support characters. But, if you have a couple of BDFs or a BDF and an archer - a Bard will do wonders at low and mid APLs. He will be effective at high APLs too - but it just won't be responsible for quite as much of the damage. Daren
Ariante 08-31-06, 05:16 AM	I will personally buy dinner for the person who can show me a bard that is as effective as the iconic builds (not uber, just good solid builds) at a LG table. Someone prove me wrong. Please. Let's see... My bard is only L3 so far, so the list isn't long yet, but so far he has: -Convinced an NPC rogue to talk with us rather than flee/fight so we got the required info *without* getting the Wrath of the Assasin's Guild -Shamed the NPC we just rescued into giving us his gear, so we had an easier time of it in the next figh (and incidentally hit cap, too). -Convinced the NPC to talk with us, saving us (DM's estimate) at least an hour of playtime doing slow, frustrating research. -Convinced the NPC to help us for free, saving us (at our APL) 200gp. hitting the bad -Convinced one of the 2 NPCs attacking us to stop fighting, letting us concentrate on the other one. And of course the generic stuff of just hitting the baddies and making the rest of the party hit harder and more often. Another PC of mine has also travelled with a higher level bard, who did things like convince the orc army on the march to take a slightly different route (causing them to not encounter the people we were escorting), convince the elves to let us pass through their forest (and avoid the far more dangerous swamp route), talk the minions into hanging back so we could butcher the big baddy, and lots of other things that made us glad to have him with us. Again, quite apart from the Haste and +3/+3 (Inspirational Boost is *good*) he gave us every fight.
echoota 08-31-06, 01:34 PM	I think the #1 reason to play a bard comes from watching my friend pull out his ipod w/speaker when his bard music begins. He hit's the button on the ipod and this idiotic pho-medieval music starts to chirp in the air. Gets a laugh every time from the whole table.
timerino 08-31-06, 06:57 PM	Let's see... My bard is only L3 so far, so the list isn't long yet, but so far he has: -Convinced an NPC rogue to talk with us rather than flee/fight so we got the required info *without* getting the Wrath of the Assasin's Guild -Shamed the NPC we just rescued into giving us his gear, so we had an easier time of it in the next figh (and incidentally hit cap, too). -Convinced the NPC to talk with us, saving us (DM's estimate) at least an hour of playtime doing slow, frustrating research. -Convinced the NPC to help us for free, saving us (at our APL) 200gp. hitting the bad -Convinced one of the 2 NPCs attacking us to stop fighting, letting us concentrate on the other one. And of course the generic stuff of just hitting the baddies and making the rest of the party hit harder and more often. Another PC of mine has also travelled with a higher level bard, who did things like convince the orc army on the march to take a slightly different route (causing them to not encounter the people we were escorting), convince the elves to let us pass through their forest (and avoid the far more dangerous swamp route), talk the minions into hanging back so we could butcher the big baddy, and lots of other things that made us glad to have him with us. Again, quite apart from the Haste and +3/+3 (Inspirational Boost is *good*) he gave us every fight. I have a Bard 3/Marshall 1 who maxed out her social skills. The problems with them (I find) is that many judges don't know what to do (so they disallow it) when the bard talks successfully (diplomacy/bluff/...any charisma check...) through encounters. Otherwise, the bard's social skills would be more useful. And, the bard would be more useful. I have judges who simply say diplomacy is not allowed when initiative is rolled. No, I know about the -10 for full round, but to him (and he's not alone) it is simply NOT ALLOWED. Personally, I recall that wondeful scene in Firefly when the captain convinced Jayne to join him when they're at gunpoint: that's a nat-20 on his diplomacy check in initiative! On a few LG mod's, a single (out rageously high) diplomacy check is used to 'avoid an entire encounter.' (read, xp but no gp or item access). Too few LG mod's use social skills to advance plot more efficiently. Not a rant ... it is what it is. I still enjoy my bard in all but the 'crunch only' modules. timerino
clik_ml 09-01-06, 02:43 AM	More frustrating than the social aspect of my bard is how little use I get out of bardic knowledge. Maybe half the knowledge checks called for in games I've played have let me even attempt a bardic knowledge check. It's a very reasonable ability and for some reason judges and writers ain't allowing it (or they give it a +10 DC penalty actually written into the mods, which is bull, or they only let me roll my knowledge skill *or* bardic knowledge, even if both sources of knowledge apply). I will grant that it isn't the best written ability, and that carries much of the blame for the massive table variation I find on it, but c'mon. No need to nerf what doesn't need nerfing. Are writers and judges that afraid of bards dominating knowledge checks, since they already have the reputation of dominating so many other roles?
clannagh 09-01-06, 02:56 AM	On a few LG mod's, a single (out rageously high) diplomacy check is used to 'avoid an entire encounter.' (read, xp but no gp or item access). Too few LG mod's use social skills to advance plot more efficiently. Not a rant ... it is what it is. I still enjoy my bard in all but the 'crunch only' modules. timerino The outrageous melee combat bias in LG is simply part of the territory. A lot of mods seem to bounce encounters on top of you at charge range almost deliberately to prevent diplomacy, ranged archery/spell/skirmishing or any other clever tactical response to the issue. Sometimes its almost as if the mod writer is saying " I spent a lot of effort finding this funky close combat beastie and you WILL close combat it or all die" . In my opinion there is no good reason why most mods couldnt give purchase access to items owned by the baddies in diplomacised enounters. Afterall since they are now "friendly" .. if you express an interest in the funky wand/sword/weird hat they are carrying and offer good money (full as new price for a used item no less) why wouldnt they sell it to you? The standard "bash the monster or loose all AR access" ruling is stupid and downright annoying.
Ariante 09-01-06, 03:00 AM	I have judges who simply say diplomacy is not allowed when initiative is rolled. No, I know about the -10 for full round, but to him (and he's not alone) it is simply NOT ALLOWED. Personally, I recall that wondeful scene in Firefly when the captain convinced Jayne to join him when they're at gunpoint: that's a nat-20 on his diplomacy check in initiative! You might want to start a discussion about this on your local list, as not allowing Diplomacy is simply against the rules. If more people in your region are aware of how the skill works you may find less table variation. Just be sure to also point out how it *doesn't* work; it's not usually a guaranteed combat stopper, particularly if the BDF decides to just charge the NPC anyway rather than wait to see if he's no longer hostile.
duhtroll 09-03-06, 11:18 AM	I'm not disagreeing with having nice buffs, but put in another tank and you get more damage than that. Put in another caster and you get far more versatility AND more damage. Just have the bard, in every combat, cast or do Haste, Inspire Courage, and Inspire Greatness in roughly that order. Every combat. With the spell Harmonize, a Bard can get all three off in 2 rounds of combat. Now every time someone swings, calculate what percentage of the damage was done by the Bard. Have the DM announce when the Bard was responsible for a hit. The Bard gets all the damage from that hit. If there's a hit and the Bard wasn't responsible, then just add the damage he generated from Bardsong. If you have a 5-6 person party, you should find out that the supposedly 'ineffective' bard is responsible for about a fourth of the damage the party is dishing out every fight. My Bard was actually responsible for a third of the *hits* once in a 6 person party. Yes, if you have Daren's souped up combat builds at a high level, there's issues. Have solid iconic builds and the bard does more than fine.
duhtroll 09-03-06, 11:20 AM	and this is kinda my point - it's not just LG but D&D itself that leans this way. It's more or less trying to be a tabletop video game, which might be the reasons bards aren't as useful. anyone can add roleplaying encounters to a home game, but we need decent authors to do it for LG. The outrageous melee combat bias in LG is simply part of the territory. A lot of mods seem to bounce encounters on top of you at charge range almost deliberately to prevent diplomacy, ranged archery/spell/skirmishing or any other clever tactical response to the issue. Sometimes its almost as if the mod writer is saying " I spent a lot of effort finding this funky close combat beastie and you WILL close combat it or all die" . In my opinion there is no good reason why most mods couldnt give purchase access to items owned by the baddies in diplomacised enounters. Afterall since they are now "friendly" .. if you express an interest in the funky wand/sword/weird hat they are carrying and offer good money (full as new price for a used item no less) why wouldnt they sell it to you? The standard "bash the monster or loose all AR access" ruling is stupid and downright annoying.
duhtroll 09-03-06, 11:25 AM	My name is Andy, so thanks! :) But see, the bard requires those other PCs to be effective. Yes, it's a teamwork game, but how often do you sit down to balanced tables at game days? Cons of course are easier, but even then it's tough to get a good mix sometimes. Bards need other classes to be their best. Other classes need them less so (not that they don't require teamwork, just not as much to be effective). I guess my big problem is that the bard can't really shine on their own, diplomacy notwithstanding, and we've seen the problems there. Take away the fighting and players get bored. That's probably why it's discriminated against. As much as I hate it, I have to agree with Andy. :) Geesh - 2 times in a week is a record. A Buffer Bard can really amp up the damage for a productive 5 person table. This is especially true at low and mid levels - especially once haste comes into play. Haste is just so awesome at APL6 and 8 - before most people have Boots of Speed. The extra attack and then additional bonuses from the Bard songs will make a big difference. You just need to make sure you have a few primary damage dealers. You also don't want to just have a party of ONLY support characters. But, if you have a couple of BDFs or a BDF and an archer - a Bard will do wonders at low and mid APLs. He will be effective at high APLs too - but it just won't be responsible for quite as much of the damage. Daren
Mommy was an Orc 09-03-06, 11:45 AM	My name is Andy, so thanks! :) Bards need other classes to be their best. Other classes need them less so (not that they don't require teamwork, just not as much to be effective). My name is also Andy... Which is also true of a Healing focused Cleric. No one denies their value. The real problem with Bards is that they're boring in combat and those who try to make them exciting end up being useless. No one tries to make a healing focused cleric exciting in combat. There's the problem - lots of newbie players try to make them exciting and the good tactical players find them too boring.
The_Jester 09-10-06, 01:59 PM	Out of curiosity, has anyone seen an AR grant masterwork instruments from CV? Preferably Core... I'm not asking for names, just if they exist. No metaorgs in my region grant access so I need to know if I should give up hope or bug writers in my region.
Rerednaw 09-11-06, 12:07 PM	I didn't get to play my LG bard (game was cancelled). :( I did get to play me L3 bard in a home game. Rogue, Wizard, Beguiler, Pally, Cleric myself against 2 trolls. I Inspirational Boosted and Inspired Couraged the party. I also talled hit/misses and damage added. Final tally: 202 hit points total to both trolls. 62 hit points from the '+2' damage bonus, 6 hits (including a scorching ray) that would have been misses including 2 critical confirms. If I include the miss-> hit and no crit->crit the bard actually accounted for 107 out of 202 total party damage. Of that 3 was from his attempts at using a longspear. :) Not too bad. The downside being I realize that this is about ALL my bard will be doing for a long time. (Although a backup fascinate may offer some variety.)
Mommy was an Orc 09-11-06, 03:20 PM	Final tally: 202 hit points total to both trolls. 62 hit points from the '+2' damage bonus, 6 hits (including a scorching ray) that would have been misses including 2 critical confirms. If I include the miss-> hit and no crit->crit the bard actually accounted for 107 out of 202 total party damage. Of that 3 was from his attempts at using a longspear. :) Not too bad. The downside being I realize that this is about ALL my bard will be doing for a long time. (Although a backup fascinate may offer some variety.) That's exactly what happens a lot more often than it looks - of course, you could replace you for a tank that does 38 hp of damage(twice party average without you) instead your 107 hp of damage. And that's right, that's exactly all your bard will be doing in combat. Which is often the problem.