Wielding Weapons in Bear Form [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wielding Weapons in Bear Form [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gumbymoto
08-28-06, 03:56 PM Is a character that has a level of bear warrior able to wield their weapon normally or are they limited to using the claw attacks they get when they transform into a bear form?

Is the bear warrior's form concidered to be a wild shaping ability which would grant access to wild shaping feats?
Paul H
08-29-06, 12:45 AM Hi

Not sure about the Wild Shape feats, but reckon that you can only use natural weapons in Bear form, since they don't have hands. " As normal for polymorph..." etc.

Mind you, looking at the bonuses, who needs manufactured weapons?

Just a thought - but does your character meet the prereqs. for Frenzied Beserker? The Stat bonuses are Class Abilities, so stack.

A Human Barbarian can go Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker/Bear Warrior.
With Stats Str 16 Dex 16 (inc lvl 4 bump) Con 16:
Becomes Str 30 Dex 18 Con 20, AC -6, BAB 7/2. plus extra attack, plus Black Bear attack forms.

Not bad.....;)

(Note: If the various 'Bite of the Were...' spells from Spell Compendium were LG legal, then Barbarian/Druid would be better bet).

Just checked - doesn't mention Wild Shape anywhere in class description, so no Wild Shape Feats.

Cheers
Paul H
clik_ml
08-29-06, 02:49 AM Ehhh, Frenzied Berserker is restricted in LG.

Can't play em and for good reason.

No books with me at work, but I'm not sure that bearshape even stacks with frenzy.
Madfox11
08-29-06, 03:12 AM Some time ago there was a similar discussion about these very same questions in a regional mailing list. The gist of that discussion was that a bear-warrior in bear shape cannot use weapons, and that considering the wording of the ability it is NOT a wildshape ability. The discussion was about the wild armor enhancement. I cannot even see how the various wild shape feats would work with the bear warrior. To activate them a character has to spend a wild shape ability of the day. The bear warrior only changes shape when raging. Note though that I do not have the books at hand. Also note that this an opinion as a DM, and that in no way does it constitute as an official Circle ruling.
Paul H
08-30-06, 05:23 PM Hi

Ahh - didn't know Frenzied Beserker was restricted.
But would have thought all class abilities stacked. (Frenzy dependent on having rage ability (feats), whilst Bear Warrior requires either Rage or Frenzy as prereq.
(Though this is mute since F.Beserker restricted anyway).

Cheers
Paul H
timerino
08-31-06, 06:34 PM Although this may be slightly off topic, but I saw this recently on a documentary.

Only Panda Bears have 'thumbs.' And the panda bear's thumb is an extended bond from the 'base of the thumb.' So, normal bears really can't hold things.

But then, rule 0.1 (after 0.0 the Judge is always right) is to never confuse game mechanics with reality.

tim
ShinAkuma2
08-31-06, 11:20 PM Still, there's a reason that Were-Bears in Bear form don't weild weapons...They can't.
Shandronas
09-06-06, 11:32 AM There used to be the opposeable weapon enhancement in masters of the wild. It essentially gave a thumb to creatures without them, thus enabling them to wield weapons normally. It's a shame that this wasn't passed on to 3.5. There is a complete lack of good PrCs for barbarians who want to stay on a similar path (Bear Warrior, Rage Mage [lol], and Frost Rager the only ones remotely obtainable in LG IIRC).
Paul H
09-06-06, 07:48 PM Hi

There's nothing to stop a Barbarian/Druid/Master Many Forms mix.

Druid at earlier levels helps with the damage (Gt Club with Shillelagh does 3D6).

It's just that you've long way to go before real benefits kick in.
Barbarian/Druid5/MMF2 grants Troll form, though without regen & rend.

But why consider weapons in bear form in first place? If it's just damage - take Druid & wildshape. They make good cavalry, (animal companion bonuses), and can dish out varied types damage.
(Shillelagh increases club damage to 2 sizes larger, elemental damage, etc).

If you're Barbarian/Druid, (wildshaped), then buff, rage & charge!

Cheers
Paul H
JamesMaissen
09-07-06, 03:04 AM It's just that you've long way to go before real benefits kick in.
Barbarian/Druid5/MMF2 grants Troll form, though without regen & rend.

Correction.. they get rend. It's an extraordinary special attack,

James
GrahamWills
09-08-06, 12:18 AM So, if I have my Monk N / Barb / Bear Warrior 1 / WarShaper 1
Is it true that:

1) I can flurry in bear form
2) I can stunning fist in bear form
3) I use my monk hand-to-hand damage not the bears d6
4) I am immune to all critical hits

it seems to me that all are true, but it also seems a little too good. It's also hard to justify from a roleplaying perspective ...
JamesMaissen
09-08-06, 09:04 AM So, if I have my Monk N / Barb / Bear Warrior 1 / WarShaper 1
Is it true that:

1) I can flurry in bear form
2) I can stunning fist in bear form
3) I use my monk hand-to-hand damage not the bears d6
4) I am immune to all critical hits

it seems to me that all are true, but it also seems a little too good. It's also hard to justify from a roleplaying perspective ...

1> Yes, and any natural weapons that you do not use while flurrying you can use as secondary natural attacks (as described in the MM when dealing with both natural and manufactured weapons, also reiterated in the FAQ I believe).

2> With any unarmed strike. Without rapid stunning of course you are limited to one/ round.

3> Yes, and if you are the medium black bear then it would be medium sized monk damage.

4> You are immune to critical hits WHEN not in your natural form (ie bear in this specific case).

Extra:
A> You can also add a new natural attack via morphic weapons (should you have the time to do so during a rage) and throw that into the mix as well.

B> You can still Evade, enjoy enhanced movement and other class abilities.

As to 'justify' from a roleplaying perspective I don't see the problem. It's a fantasy world.. Monks in it instead of learning fighting styles based on animals could learn to fight AS them would seem to me an incredibly natural extension. Consider the people that through control of their body can alter their pulse and the like.. now in a fantasy setting they do so in a much more pronounced fashion and protect vital organs when magic is shaping their body.

What part is giving you trouble?

-James
GrahamWills
09-09-06, 09:42 AM Thanks for the replies; much appreciated.

The roleplaying comment was mostly for my character, not so much meant as a general statement. From a roleplaying point of view, acharacter is clearly moving from law to chaos, and from a very trained form of combat to a more freefrom attack style. I tend to a more roleplaying focus perhaps than is general in LG, so these issues concern me more.

Enough has happened to my monk to convinc me that it is better to be GOOD than LAWFUL, so I feel comfortable moving him along the axis a bit. Moving all the way to a barbarian bear warrior might be a stretch. He still feels that there should be good laws to run society by, so I'm not sure I'll actually take this path.

Currently he's a Monk 6/Ranger 1, so I'd probably go for Monk 6/Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Bear Warrior 1. From an effectiveness point of view it's a reasonable option. My current alternative is Monk 6/Ranger 2/Wolflord/Fighter 1 ...
qstor
09-29-06, 09:13 AM I'd go with the table here on what you can using in animal form, unless your in ape form.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a

A panda's NOT in the MM so you can't change into a panda.

Mike
clik_ml
09-29-06, 03:52 PM A panda's NOT in the MM so you can't change into a panda.

Now you're just tempting me to ask for a special mission for my druid so that I can wildshape into a panda. Give me a black bear form with 2 less strength, and dice one step lower for natural attacks and I'll be happy.

Panda Attack!
Gelth
10-04-06, 02:15 PM There is no animal form that the rules say can can wield weapons. Some Judges allow apes to do so, but that ruling is debateable either way, and I choose not to allow it at my table (I like to have decided these tricky rules issues before I sit down to run, so if it ever comes up I'll know instantly what I've decided. Nobody has ever tried this at any table of mine).
Bears almost certainly can't wield weapons.

--Penn, Ket Triad
kjenks
10-16-06, 03:57 PM Bears almost certainly can't wield weapons.

--Penn, Ket Triad

Armor spikes.
Arvagor
10-16-06, 04:25 PM Heaven forbid this turn into a "When is 4.0 coming?" thread, but if I had but two wishes to be granted for 4.0 ...

1) Spiked chains disappear forever
2) Armor spikes disappear forever

;)
clannagh
10-19-06, 07:11 PM As far as I know once you can become a bear you qualify for levels of warshaper which kinda make using weapons redundant.

As far as spiked chains go .. they are somewhat silly, but no more silly than falling 300 feet and walking away because you are an "experienced" adventurer or being able to make people more skilful by singing at them :)

Spiked Chains also require a stupid number of feats to use effectively (exotic weapon spiked chain, expertise, finesse, combat reflexes, improved disarm, improved trip just to get started) so I personally do not see them as unbalanced.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gumbymoto 08-28-06, 03:56 PM	Is a character that has a level of bear warrior able to wield their weapon normally or are they limited to using the claw attacks they get when they transform into a bear form? Is the bear warrior's form concidered to be a wild shaping ability which would grant access to wild shaping feats?
Paul H 08-29-06, 12:45 AM	Hi Not sure about the Wild Shape feats, but reckon that you can only use natural weapons in Bear form, since they don't have hands. " As normal for polymorph..." etc. Mind you, looking at the bonuses, who needs manufactured weapons? Just a thought - but does your character meet the prereqs. for Frenzied Beserker? The Stat bonuses are Class Abilities, so stack. A Human Barbarian can go Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker/Bear Warrior. With Stats Str 16 Dex 16 (inc lvl 4 bump) Con 16: Becomes Str 30 Dex 18 Con 20, AC -6, BAB 7/2. plus extra attack, plus Black Bear attack forms. Not bad.....;) (Note: If the various 'Bite of the Were...' spells from Spell Compendium were LG legal, then Barbarian/Druid would be better bet). Just checked - doesn't mention Wild Shape anywhere in class description, so no Wild Shape Feats. Cheers Paul H
clik_ml 08-29-06, 02:49 AM	Ehhh, Frenzied Berserker is restricted in LG. Can't play em and for good reason. No books with me at work, but I'm not sure that bearshape even stacks with frenzy.
Madfox11 08-29-06, 03:12 AM	Some time ago there was a similar discussion about these very same questions in a regional mailing list. The gist of that discussion was that a bear-warrior in bear shape cannot use weapons, and that considering the wording of the ability it is NOT a wildshape ability. The discussion was about the wild armor enhancement. I cannot even see how the various wild shape feats would work with the bear warrior. To activate them a character has to spend a wild shape ability of the day. The bear warrior only changes shape when raging. Note though that I do not have the books at hand. Also note that this an opinion as a DM, and that in no way does it constitute as an official Circle ruling.
Paul H 08-30-06, 05:23 PM	Hi Ahh - didn't know Frenzied Beserker was restricted. But would have thought all class abilities stacked. (Frenzy dependent on having rage ability (feats), whilst Bear Warrior requires either Rage or Frenzy as prereq. (Though this is mute since F.Beserker restricted anyway). Cheers Paul H
timerino 08-31-06, 06:34 PM	Although this may be slightly off topic, but I saw this recently on a documentary. Only Panda Bears have 'thumbs.' And the panda bear's thumb is an extended bond from the 'base of the thumb.' So, normal bears really can't hold things. But then, rule 0.1 (after 0.0 the Judge is always right) is to never confuse game mechanics with reality. tim
ShinAkuma2 08-31-06, 11:20 PM	Still, there's a reason that Were-Bears in Bear form don't weild weapons...They can't.
Shandronas 09-06-06, 11:32 AM	There used to be the opposeable weapon enhancement in masters of the wild. It essentially gave a thumb to creatures without them, thus enabling them to wield weapons normally. It's a shame that this wasn't passed on to 3.5. There is a complete lack of good PrCs for barbarians who want to stay on a similar path (Bear Warrior, Rage Mage [lol], and Frost Rager the only ones remotely obtainable in LG IIRC).
Paul H 09-06-06, 07:48 PM	Hi There's nothing to stop a Barbarian/Druid/Master Many Forms mix. Druid at earlier levels helps with the damage (Gt Club with Shillelagh does 3D6). It's just that you've long way to go before real benefits kick in. Barbarian/Druid5/MMF2 grants Troll form, though without regen & rend. But why consider weapons in bear form in first place? If it's just damage - take Druid & wildshape. They make good cavalry, (animal companion bonuses), and can dish out varied types damage. (Shillelagh increases club damage to 2 sizes larger, elemental damage, etc). If you're Barbarian/Druid, (wildshaped), then buff, rage & charge! Cheers Paul H
JamesMaissen 09-07-06, 03:04 AM	It's just that you've long way to go before real benefits kick in. Barbarian/Druid5/MMF2 grants Troll form, though without regen & rend. Correction.. they get rend. It's an extraordinary special attack, James
GrahamWills 09-08-06, 12:18 AM	So, if I have my Monk N / Barb / Bear Warrior 1 / WarShaper 1 Is it true that: 1) I can flurry in bear form 2) I can stunning fist in bear form 3) I use my monk hand-to-hand damage not the bears d6 4) I am immune to all critical hits it seems to me that all are true, but it also seems a little too good. It's also hard to justify from a roleplaying perspective ...
JamesMaissen 09-08-06, 09:04 AM	So, if I have my Monk N / Barb / Bear Warrior 1 / WarShaper 1 Is it true that: 1) I can flurry in bear form 2) I can stunning fist in bear form 3) I use my monk hand-to-hand damage not the bears d6 4) I am immune to all critical hits it seems to me that all are true, but it also seems a little too good. It's also hard to justify from a roleplaying perspective ... 1> Yes, and any natural weapons that you do not use while flurrying you can use as secondary natural attacks (as described in the MM when dealing with both natural and manufactured weapons, also reiterated in the FAQ I believe). 2> With any unarmed strike. Without rapid stunning of course you are limited to one/ round. 3> Yes, and if you are the medium black bear then it would be medium sized monk damage. 4> You are immune to critical hits WHEN not in your natural form (ie bear in this specific case). Extra: A> You can also add a new natural attack via morphic weapons (should you have the time to do so during a rage) and throw that into the mix as well. B> You can still Evade, enjoy enhanced movement and other class abilities. As to 'justify' from a roleplaying perspective I don't see the problem. It's a fantasy world.. Monks in it instead of learning fighting styles based on animals could learn to fight AS them would seem to me an incredibly natural extension. Consider the people that through control of their body can alter their pulse and the like.. now in a fantasy setting they do so in a much more pronounced fashion and protect vital organs when magic is shaping their body. What part is giving you trouble? -James
GrahamWills 09-09-06, 09:42 AM	Thanks for the replies; much appreciated. The roleplaying comment was mostly for my character, not so much meant as a general statement. From a roleplaying point of view, acharacter is clearly moving from law to chaos, and from a very trained form of combat to a more freefrom attack style. I tend to a more roleplaying focus perhaps than is general in LG, so these issues concern me more. Enough has happened to my monk to convinc me that it is better to be GOOD than LAWFUL, so I feel comfortable moving him along the axis a bit. Moving all the way to a barbarian bear warrior might be a stretch. He still feels that there should be good laws to run society by, so I'm not sure I'll actually take this path. Currently he's a Monk 6/Ranger 1, so I'd probably go for Monk 6/Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Bear Warrior 1. From an effectiveness point of view it's a reasonable option. My current alternative is Monk 6/Ranger 2/Wolflord/Fighter 1 ...
qstor 09-29-06, 09:13 AM	I'd go with the table here on what you can using in animal form, unless your in ape form. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a A panda's NOT in the MM so you can't change into a panda. Mike
clik_ml 09-29-06, 03:52 PM	A panda's NOT in the MM so you can't change into a panda. Now you're just tempting me to ask for a special mission for my druid so that I can wildshape into a panda. Give me a black bear form with 2 less strength, and dice one step lower for natural attacks and I'll be happy. Panda Attack!
Gelth 10-04-06, 02:15 PM	There is no animal form that the rules say can can wield weapons. Some Judges allow apes to do so, but that ruling is debateable either way, and I choose not to allow it at my table (I like to have decided these tricky rules issues before I sit down to run, so if it ever comes up I'll know instantly what I've decided. Nobody has ever tried this at any table of mine). Bears almost certainly can't wield weapons. --Penn, Ket Triad
kjenks 10-16-06, 03:57 PM	Bears almost certainly can't wield weapons. --Penn, Ket Triad Armor spikes.
Arvagor 10-16-06, 04:25 PM	Heaven forbid this turn into a "When is 4.0 coming?" thread, but if I had but two wishes to be granted for 4.0 ... 1) Spiked chains disappear forever 2) Armor spikes disappear forever ;)
clannagh 10-19-06, 07:11 PM	As far as I know once you can become a bear you qualify for levels of warshaper which kinda make using weapons redundant. As far as spiked chains go .. they are somewhat silly, but no more silly than falling 300 feet and walking away because you are an "experienced" adventurer or being able to make people more skilful by singing at them :) Spiked Chains also require a stupid number of feats to use effectively (exotic weapon spiked chain, expertise, finesse, combat reflexes, improved disarm, improved trip just to get started) so I personally do not see them as unbalanced.