Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 01-11-07, 10:29 PM	Using summon nature's ally 7 to summon 1d4+1 giant constrictor snakes and then casting animal growth on them? Potentially 5 gargantuan creatures flopping around the battlefield?
ShinAkuma2 01-11-07, 10:50 PM	I forsee no negative consquences to performing such a feat. On a totally unrelated note, remind me never to run a game for your Druid.
_m_ 01-11-07, 10:52 PM	Using summon nature's ally 7 to summon 1d4+1 giant constrictor snakes and then casting animal growth on them? Potentially 5 gargantuan creatures flopping around the battlefield? nar not reeally. i can think of way more complicated things. now a whole party of people doing that would complicate things. people with multiple party members in there own character... companions and familiars, that sort of thing... like, a character with a companion animal, a mount, a dire eagle, a cohort, the cohort has a pet and a mount. that sort of thing. at least the summons are the same.
Puggle Halfwine 01-11-07, 11:24 PM	I've had a similar discussion with Cynric about his druid of the same name. We started to complicate things when we went, "Well, if Cynric took Leadership and Quicken, had a druid cohort who also had Quicken, then they both summoned... counting their animal companion, that's like... thirty animals sitting around."
clannagh 01-11-07, 11:42 PM	I've had a similar discussion with Cynric about his druid of the same name. We started to complicate things when we went, "Well, if Cynric took Leadership and Quicken, had a druid cohort who also had Quicken, then they both summoned... counting their animal companion, that's like... thirty animals sitting around." more than one druid in a party is ................ disturbing unnatural at the very least
paigeoliver 01-11-07, 11:54 PM	I have a mounted character who will eventually be problematic like that. Already have animal companion and the certed warhorse (mounted combat), eventually I will be adding a few "magic items" that are creatures as well. At least I will have mounts enough for the whole party.
Cynric 01-11-07, 11:55 PM	As someone who has pulled this trick (well it was three tigers and a snakelords animal companion) it works well. I tend not to pull it often as it takes a lot of effort to run and it tends to detract from other players power. What is reaaly nasty is when the wizard or sorcerer in the party hits the animal growth when two druids have done the summoning dance. It is only really beneficial when you hit an APL+4 or 5 encounter with not much warning or when you are running low on healing.
Lupo 01-12-07, 01:03 AM	Using summon nature's ally 7 to summon 1d4+1 giant constrictor snakes and then casting animal growth on them? Potentially 5 gargantuan creatures flopping around the battlefield? that is a normal trick for any druid who has his senses together ;) a bunch of dire wolves, enlarged, also tend to eat up a lot of space on the battlefield :P or giant crocs, enlarged, make wonderful mobile walls and are perfect to get rid of surplus corpses :D a line of enlarged tigers, charging, tends to clear battlefields . . . . . ciao martin m. <edit> just make sure to have the relevant stats handy, especcially for "augmented summoned", "enlarged" animals. saves a lot of time . . . . . and keeps your fellow players at least a little bit from wanting to tear your character sheet to pieces :P</edit>
Morgen 01-12-07, 01:19 AM	This always makes me wonder why the heck I haven't made a druid yet! >.< SNAAAKES!
ShinAkuma2 01-12-07, 10:24 AM	That's IT! I have had it with these :censored: snakes on these :censored: plains! lol c wut I did ther?
trollbill 01-12-07, 11:21 AM	Summoners always complicate things simply because they add beasties to the battle. In a recently retired mod I ran a few weeks ago the party ran into 4 Lacedon Ghasts and a Sahuagin Summoner. The party had a wizard summoner and a druid summoner. At the height of the battle there were 6 PCs, the 5 original monsters, 1 dire bat animal companion, a spell augmented combat familiar, 6 medium sharks, 1 large shark, 3 celestial fire beetles and a porpoise. Throw in various magical and terrain effects and that battle alone took half the slot to finish. It was fun, mind you, but very time consuming.
bitznarf 01-12-07, 11:29 AM	There is a group of gamers in my area, (a family if I recall) who all have druid characters. They used them at the same table of a battle interactive... can anyone say SPAT! I mean.. 5 druids summoning.. come on... it was nuts.
kenobi65 01-12-07, 11:51 AM	SNAAAKES! "I've had it with these ****ing snakes in this ****ing dungeon!!"
Mystical_Tutor 01-12-07, 03:18 PM	Summoners always complicate things... The party had a wizard summoner and a druid summoner. I'm glad that some of you, including trollbill, remembered that Druids are only one of the 6 classes that can summon (though I have yet to meet a Sorcerer that has selected Summon Monster as a spell). It seems that Druids always get pointed at when the battlefield gets cluttered with critters. Taint fair. Sure, they do it more often because they don’t have neat fireballs, can’t sing, are lousy with a bow and get tired of getting hit when trying to run around and heal people so they need to have something to do when they get bored. However, all those other guys and gals could also be plopping combat support down on the kill zone just like an airborne assault, if they just wanted to. Sometimes it is even helpful. Like spending a couple skill points to learn Ignan, then summoning 4-5 small fire elementals in a dark dungeon and telling them to go flank the bad guys. Vola! Instant flankers and light to boot. Seriously, though. I have become increasingly aware of the game time I consume when running summoned creatures. I don’t like it and am sure others get tired of it too. To ease this a bit I have done a couple things that help and offer them as suggestions. 1) I printed out a critter card for each critter I might summon (which is all the critters in the SNA table). The stats are different than the MM because I have Augmented Summoning so I figured that in on the cards. Animal Growth is added in [green] and all the things that spell effects are calculated (that was one heck of a job but much easier at home than while under pressure at a table). The two real challenges for me were the special attacks like rend, etc because not all special attacks are affected the same way by an increase in strength (I leaned heavily on WotC customer service here) and those creatures that have weapon finesse for a feat. 2) I made die sets and noted on the corner of the card which set to use for that critter. Then I prepackaged these sets with the minis that they work for. I started out to have a set for each critter but that was way to many dice. 3) I highlighted special attacks and feats and printed their mechanics out on the card back (sorry, I don’t remember what ‘ink’ does or how it works). Now, in that space of time between when I say “And xxxx starts casting a spell” and the next round, my mini(s) is out, dice are arranged and the card has been read again. Not a total solution but a step in the right direction.
UMiskatonic 01-12-07, 03:27 PM	Thank you. For those of you who could use that level of organization, the LG Druids list on Yahoo will get you started.
Lupo 01-12-07, 04:49 PM	I'm glad that some of you, including trollbill, remembered that Druids are only one of the 6 classes that can summon (though I have yet to meet a Sorcerer that has selected Summon Monster as a spell). It seems that Druids always get pointed at when the battlefield gets cluttered with critters. Taint fair. Sure, they do it more often because they don’t have neat fireballs, can’t sing, are lousy with a bow and get tired of getting hit when trying to run around and heal people so they need to have something to do when they get bored. However, all those other guys and gals could also be plopping combat support down on the kill zone just like an airborne assault, if they just wanted to. Sometimes it is even helpful. Like spending a couple skill points to learn Ignan, then summoning 4-5 small fire elementals in a dark dungeon and telling them to go flank the bad guys. Vola! Instant flankers and light to boot. Seriously, though. I have become increasingly aware of the game time I consume when running summoned creatures. I don’t like it and am sure others get tired of it too. To ease this a bit I have done a couple things that help and offer them as suggestions. 1) I printed out a critter card for each critter I might summon (which is all the critters in the SNA table). The stats are different than the MM because I have Augmented Summoning so I figured that in on the cards. Animal Growth is added in [green] and all the things that spell effects are calculated (that was one heck of a job but much easier at home than while under pressure at a table). The two real challenges for me were the special attacks like rend, etc because not all special attacks are affected the same way by an increase in strength (I leaned heavily on WotC customer service here) and those creatures that have weapon finesse for a feat. 2) I made die sets and noted on the corner of the card which set to use for that critter. Then I prepackaged these sets with the minis that they work for. I started out to have a set for each critter but that was way to many dice. 3) I highlighted special attacks and feats and printed their mechanics out on the card back (sorry, I don’t remember what ‘ink’ does or how it works). Now, in that space of time between when I say “And xxxx starts casting a spell” and the next round, my mini(s) is out, dice are arranged and the card has been read again. Not a total solution but a step in the right direction. yea, i was thinking about a summoning cleric with "divine metamagic [rapid spell]" that would be a hell of a cool combo, combined with animal domain . . . . may be still an option when "divine metamagic" is still around after the next LGCS ;) human: 1: spell focus (conjuration), augmented summoning 3: rapid spell 6: divine metamagic [rapid] 9: cwi 12: leadership for a cohort (bard or druid) solid build, no problems, DMs gone hate him :P ciao martin m.
trollbill 01-12-07, 04:55 PM	yea, i was thinking about a summoning cleric with "divine metamagic [rapid spell]" that would be a hell of a cool combo, combined with animal domain . . . . may be still an option when "divine metamagic" is still around after the next LGCS ;) human: 1: spell focus (conjuration), augmented summoning 3: rapid spell 6: divine metamagic [rapid] 9: cwi 12: leadership for a cohort (bard or druid) solid build, no problems, DMs gone hate him :P ciao martin m. Go with a Cleric of Ulaa and get the Summoning and Good domains. You can summon Celestial Creatures with a +3 to your caster level.
welbybumpus 01-12-07, 06:13 PM	+3 caster level for summons is hardly worth it. It only adds to the duration, and summoned creatures end up hanging around after the battle 90% of the time anyway. You could argue that it makes the summoned creatures harder to dispel, but I've only rarely seen a summoned creature dispelled. Ron
Mortepierre 01-12-07, 06:41 PM	I'm glad that some of you, including trollbill, remembered that Druids are only one of the 6 classes that can summon (though I have yet to meet a Sorcerer that has selected Summon Monster as a spell). It seems that Druids always get pointed at when the battlefield gets cluttered with critters. Taint fair. Sure, they do it more often because they don’t have neat fireballs, can’t sing, are lousy with a bow and get tired of getting hit when trying to run around and heal people so they need to have something to do when they get bored. We have two summoners in my party. My Conjurer and a druidess. Both of us have Augmented Summoning and both of us are 6th level. Even so, I often despair at how easy the druidess has it compared to me. Not only can she switch any spell for SNA, but her "pets" are - on the whole - bigger and better than mine (even though most of mine enjoy the Celestial/Fiendish template). Right now, SM3 gets me 1 celestial hippogriff, 1 fiendish ape, 1 fiendish dire bat, or 1 fiendish huge monstrous centipede. Granted, some of those pack a serious punch and have DR on top of that. Still, the druidess' SNA3 yields her a dire wolf (with 57 hit pts!) or 1d3 hippogriff in comparison. Clearly, she has the upper hand. Of course, once I'll start accessing Archons next level, things are going to swing my way but, for now, I would say druids own the summoning field from lvl 1 to 6.
Mystical_Tutor 01-12-07, 08:12 PM	...Still, the druidess' SNA3 yields her a dire wolf (with 57 hit pts!).... ...for now, I would say druids own the summoning field from lvl 1 to 6. Ah my faithful companion for so many years, the dire Wolf. I only partially understand what you are saying because, sad to say, I just never seem to end up in groups that summon creatures other than the druid fare so there is quite a void in my knowledge. I would like to say, however, that the one clear advantage I see for the druid is the spontaneous summoning. It has rescued my poor spell choices more than once. But beyond that I think the real key if finding the creature that fits the situation. It is not always the biggest or baddest that the party needs most. Your creatures fill some very special needs that the druid's never will. Cold/fire resistance and SR can count for a lot. My suggestion for you is to study what you have available so you will be able to provide just the one the party most needs.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-12-07, 09:27 PM	Ah my faithful companion for so many years, the dire Wolf. I only partially understand what you are saying because, sad to say, I just never seem to end up in groups that summon creatures other than the druid fare so there is quite a void in my knowledge. I would like to say, however, that the one clear advantage I see for the druid is the spontaneous summoning. It has rescued my poor spell choices more than once. But beyond that I think the real key if finding the creature that fits the situation. It is not always the biggest or baddest that the party needs most. Your creatures fill some very special needs that the druid's never will. Cold/fire resistance and SR can count for a lot. My suggestion for you is to study what you have available so you will be able to provide just the one the party most needs. Unicorn summon is fairly versatile, get some healing, mobile magic circle, and a decent creature on top of it all...
Mystical_Tutor 01-13-07, 12:40 AM	Unicorn summon is fairly versatile, get some healing, mobile magic circle, and a decent creature on top of it all... If my DM lets me grow up to where I can summon that one. In the meantime I must be content with all the devilment pixies can cause (and that can be QUITE a bit).
Morgen 01-13-07, 04:11 AM	I have no problem with summoners depending on just what they're doing. We've had out butts saved a nubmer of times thanks to a conviently summoned animal or celestial. However there have also been times where druids were summoning elementals which couldn't break the DR of the monster we were fighting and the summoner kept on summoning more! Seems like just because a wizard or druid takes augemented summoning there has to be more junk in my way! I remember when the character rewrite came along, we ended up with like 4 new Alienists in the Shield Lands. :D
Nerax 01-13-07, 11:13 AM	yea, i was thinking about a summoning cleric with "divine metamagic [rapid spell]" that would be a hell of a cool combo, combined with animal domain . . . . may be still an option when "divine metamagic" is still around after the next LGCS ;) human: 1: spell focus (conjuration), augmented summoning 3: rapid spell 6: divine metamagic [rapid] 9: cwi 12: leadership for a cohort (bard or druid) solid build, no problems, DMs gone hate him :P ciao martin m. Don't forget to take 4 ranks in Know(Nature) and pick up the Spontaneous Summoner feat! Start rapid spelling those SNA spells! :D
Jay_Ibero_911 01-13-07, 04:43 PM	Don't forget to take 4 ranks in Know(Nature) and pick up the Spontaneous Summoner feat! Start rapid spelling those SNA spells! :D Wouldn't rapid spell, much like quicken spell, be useless for any spontaneous casting? Because Rapid Spell would reduce the casting time to a standard action, but then applying it to a spontaneously casted spell would bump it up to 1 full round action....Well at least you would be able to get the creature to appear on your turn...
Nerax 01-13-07, 08:45 PM	Wouldn't rapid spell, much like quicken spell, be useless for any spontaneous casting? Because Rapid Spell would reduce the casting time to a standard action, but then applying it to a spontaneously casted spell would bump it up to 1 full round action....Well at least you would be able to get the creature to appear on your turn... I had to double check but in the PHB Cleric and Druid entries there is nothing that says Spontaneous casting takes longer than a standard action. If there is something I am missing please point it out to me. Also I think that if you were able to spontaneously convert SNA spells then you should be able to prepare them normally on your spell list. This way it would be a standard action to cast with A DMM Rapid Spell.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-13-07, 09:13 PM	I had to double check but in the PHB Cleric and Druid entries there is nothing that says Spontaneous casting takes longer than a standard action. If there is something I am missing please point it out to me. Also I think that if you were able to spontaneously convert SNA spells then you should be able to prepare them normally on your spell list. This way it would be a standard action to cast with A DMM Rapid Spell. Spontaneous casting on it's own does not take any longer, but applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneosly cast spell increases it's casting time to at least 1 full round action.