Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 11-24-07, 10:25 AM	I got a favour. I pretty much had to do nothing to get it, just "play the module". No heroic character death, no sacrifice, no anything- we got full gold and XP, the game was fun and challenging but not stupidly overpowered. Your average LG module. 7.9/10 The favour reads (paraphrased): "For any four modules set in <very common location>, you may borrow any one magic item from the DMG. It must not be a consumable and must be returned after the game is complete." There is nothing else relevant to what you may pick in the favour. ... what? WHAT? Any one see any problem with this? Anyone? Moaning Diamond? Sure, that's a magic item and it's in the DMG! Eye and Hand of Vecna? Go for it! Sword of Khass? Sure, he'll lend that to you! +5 Holy Vorpal Flaming Frost Shock Bane(everything) greatsword? All in the DMG; sure thing! Free +6 stat boost? Why not! Guys, I know the campaign is ending, but please. Let it not die in a glut of stupid favours. Favours which allow your character to be cool and not die in the second-last fight of the last module, YAY! Favours which give you things like one bonus feat (so you can 'round out' your character some more, etc), YAY! Stupid access which makes GMs go "I'm sorry, you have a MAJOR ARTIFACT? For FREE? I'm going to HAVE to check that favour...", which means they eat that module... boo.
MwaO 11-24-07, 11:28 AM	"For any four modules set in <very common location>, you may borrow any one magic item from the DMG. It must not be a consumable and must be returned after the game is complete." I think it is a pretty obvious ruling that an artifact is not a magic item, at least not in the D&D sense. Disjunction affects permanent magic items, but artifacts are called out as being separate, etc...and in the context of LG, I'm pretty sure they mean listed magic items. You could get a Vorpal Weapon, because Vorpal is a listed property, but that doesn't mean you can get a Holy Vorpal weapon or an Adamantine Vorpal weapon. I'd rule that you get the minimum value logical weapon. You could have a +1 Vorpal Greatsword as an example. Still though, that is silly powerful. Any of the various 100K elemental summoning items, a greater metamagic rod of quicken, rings of elemental command, etc...
Mattastrophic 11-24-07, 11:51 AM	Guys, I know the campaign is ending, but please. Let it not die in a glut of stupid favours. You should have said that before Britt started the Belt of Battle Generation, which, at least IMO, is stronger than just about everything nonconsumable in the DMG, save maybe the Cube of Force. The end is happening, and the Circle is already granting us huge boons in the form of access we've never seen before. By your logic, it's already "dying in a glut of stupid [access and] favors." Though hmm... it would be nice to fire off two Greater Maximized spells in a round... upon thinking about it, I'm glad the Circle is letting us have some fun. It also gets my hopes up about the difficulty of the final modules. (PLEASE offer APL 16!!!) And by the way... I'm going to HAVE to check that favour...", which means they eat that module... boo. Too late. Good job on spoiling an upcoming favor for everyone. My guess is that the final year will have exactly four modules take place in said "very common location." (hmm, I wonder which one...) -Matt
Arvagor 11-25-07, 05:45 PM	... what? WHAT? Any one see any problem with this? Anyone? Moaning Diamond? Sure, that's a magic item and it's in the DMG! Eye and Hand of Vecna? Go for it! Sword of Khass? Sure, he'll lend that to you!Any DM worth a lick will not allow these for 2 reasons: 1) Highly doubtful the people in question have been sequestering them all these years, and/or recently found them and would be sending them out on loan, and 2) I'll be a d**k and say they're not magic items -- they're artifacts. DMG has six sections in the relevant chapter: Handling Magic Items Magic Item Descriptions Intelligent Items Cursed Items Artifacts Creating Magic Items First and last are irrelevant for the favor; the second one is the only one that lists "magic items" ... :tongue: +5 Holy Vorpal Flaming Frost Shock Bane(everything) greatsword? All in the DMG; sure thing! Free +6 stat boost? Why not!+6 stat boost? Not going to break a mod, given that bull's strength, cat's grace, etc. which all grant a +4, can be available to players in an APL 2 mod. Combine the first (for example) with an enlarge person, and you've got your +6 ... As far as that +5 Holy Vorpal Flaming Frost Shock Bane(everything) greatsword goes, can you tell me what page # that's on? It seems to be missing from my DMG... My guess is that the final year will have exactly four modules take place in said "very common location." (hmm, I wonder which one...)Just FYI, that doesn't exclude the favor from being used in any appropriate year 6 and year 7 mods that a particular player hasn't played yet.. Here's an idea for everyone -- why not practice a little self restraint? Use an item that's appropriate for your PC, without some tortured logic to justify it...
_metz_ 11-25-07, 08:49 PM	I agree, its a silly favour. It should have SOME qualification. That favour is technically illegal by mod writing standards and the LGCS as they are supposed to have removed the 'any item' favour access. Why aren't you taking it up with Triad or circle? I think it should be errated. If its Ratikan, take it up with Wes, if its Perrenland, Patrick, and so on. I would definitely limit it to named items from the DMG as well. If its not in a table or description you cannot have it. So no +5 Holy Vorpal Flaming Frost Shock Bane(everything) greatsword Not that such a weapon is legal in any case, as they are capped at +10, and also at +5 for actual generic enhancement. I personally like the (expired mod) favour that lets you be celestial for an entire module. Guess whose saving that for the last mod ever?
copperwyrmling 11-25-07, 09:23 PM	I generally agree, Puggle - that favor sounds pretty crazy - but... Favours which give you things like one bonus feat (so you can 'round out' your character some more, etc), YAY! Hmmm... I don't think I'd actually like to see this. The bonus feats granted by special locations in CM (I think) are treated just like unslotted magic items: they're supposed to be given out in lieu of a major gold reward (which in LG, means it would be far easier to simply give access to unslotted items that grant the bonus feat). Giving them for free would, in general, be really unbalancing. Guys, I know the campaign is ending, but please. Let it not die in a glut of stupid favours. I'm cool with powerful effects and buffs that occur within the module, so everyone gets them (it's fun to fight encounters you wouldn't normally be able to handle, because an NPC supercharges you before the fight - I've done this twice and both times it was great). I'd be fine with powerful ongoing favors, if everyone on the table got the benefit (I've seen a few of these - "everyone on this PC's table gets X bonuses"). Everyone getting to play with cool toys is fun. Being one of the cheerleaders to the Guy With The Item is, for many people, not fun. Being on a table that gets TPK'ed because nobody was borrowing an item worth 10x the table's net worth - when the authors were assuming someone would - is pretty much never fun.
Surgebuster 11-25-07, 09:38 PM	Why aren't you taking it up with Triad or circle? I think it should be errated. If its Ratikan, take it up with Wes, if its Perrenland, Scott, and so on. Just as an aside, the best person to register an issue with something like this is your local POC for regional mods or metaregional rep for well, metaregional mods. Wes and Scott (?) are not triad members, so your best bet is to contact Bruce Paris (Perrenland) or James Dempsey (Ratik) to seek clarification. :) Joe
Mattastrophic 11-25-07, 09:56 PM	Just FYI, that doesn't exclude the favor from being used in any appropriate year 6 and year 7 mods that a particular player hasn't played yet.. So what? Anyone who wastes the favor on Y6s and Y7 modules will just find themselves lacking in Year 8... man, I hope this favor means the final Cores will step up and be awesome. I'm not seeing another (logical) explanation. -Matt
Mattastrophic 11-25-07, 09:57 PM	doublepost
_metz_ 11-25-07, 10:14 PM	Just as an aside, the best person to register an issue with something like this is your local POC for regional mods or metaregional rep for well, metaregional mods. Wes and Scott (?) are not triad members, so your best bet is to contact Bruce Paris (Perrenland) or James Dempsey (Ratik) to seek clarification. :) Joe I got Scott and Patrick ocnfused, happens all the time, but yeah Bruce is the better one to talk to. (I usually see Scott and patrick at the same time lol) I always get Ratik triad confused of the top of my head. Thanks for clearing that up. I always assumed Wes was Triad based on his activity levels... Other than that I only knew James and Mark.
Lomiat 11-26-07, 12:02 AM	Given that I've seen Time Stop favors, gain access to any 1 item from the DMG for less than 20,000 gp favors, recall access to any 1 item you've previously seen favors, gain X template for Y many mods favors, gain use of a good feat for Z many mods favors, free Resurrection favors, Freedom of Movement favors, reroll favors, and favors that give +2 inherent bonuses to an attribute (never got that one, though) -- I can't say that the item favor is entirely out of line with the top favors in LG. Nonetheless, the item may not affect much if: a) the PCs are already able to do what the item helps them do (albeit a touch better, now), b) if the PC with the favor simply chooses poorly, or c) if the DM rules against some items (or, as an example, lets the PC choose the 3 Wishes Luck Blade but then .... interprets each of the PC's Wishes in an ... eccentric ... manner).
Arvagor 11-26-07, 02:03 AM	[...] c) if the DM rules against some items (or, as an example, lets the PC choose the 3 Wishes Luck Blade but then .... interprets each of the PC's Wishes in an ... eccentric ... manner).Not an issue... read Puggle's original post, and you'll see why...
MwaO 11-26-07, 08:09 AM	Not an issue... read Puggle's original post, and you'll see why... Yeah, the real problem items ought to be things like Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals. Even in the most generous weighting of it, it is still a 6th level spell at will. That's hard to deal with at APL 10-
copperwyrmling 11-26-07, 10:31 PM	Given that I've seen Time Stop favors, gain access to any 1 item from the DMG for less than 20,000 gp favors, recall access to any 1 item you've previously seen favors, gain X template for Y many mods favors, gain use of a good feat for Z many mods favors, free Resurrection favors, Freedom of Movement favors, reroll favors, and favors that give +2 inherent bonuses to an attribute (never got that one, though) -- I can't say that the item favor is entirely out of line with the top favors in LG. Going through these... the time stop favor was a one-shot thing, as was the freedom of movement favor I saw. Very nice, but because they're single-use, people tend to save them for really dire emergencies. Ditto for the reroll favors - well, except for the Folly Favor. That one was rather overpowered. Favors that grant access are somewhat balanced by the fact that you still have to pay for the item. Favors that just give you an item for free are out there, but imx they're very rare. I saw a "gain X template for ONE mod" favor. You acquired it through a random roll that had (from memory) at least a 10% chance of permakilling your PC (I can't remember if more than one number on the d10 gave the worst outcome). I've seen a single "+1 inherent bonus to a random stat" favor. I've never seen +2's. Even the +1 favor was pretty unbalancing for the 1/6 people who got exactly the stat-boost they wanted (I was one of the lucky ones: my sorc's effectively had a +1 charisma tome since L3). I've never seen favors that grant the use of feats (unless you count favors that give a +2 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy, or something like that... I guess they do imitate the effect of feats). I guess what I'm saying is that this favor may be comparable to one or two of the most powerful favors I've ever seen in Cores, but that doesn't mean it's balanced.
Madfox11 11-27-07, 03:30 AM	Well, the LGCS does (or did in a previous version) forbid evil items, cursed items and artifacts. Regardless of what the AR states, you still would/should not be allowed to get those. As for that particular favor can you send me a private message with the details (adventure name, exact text) so that I can have a chat with the people responsible. Regardless of what people think, we do not give out blanket access officially and I did make sure an AR was errated a couple of weeks ago since it did break a few of the basic rules. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA LG Circle member The Splintered Suns
JJeff 11-27-07, 04:31 AM	Well, I'm sure that there's always the ETV.. I've seen a favour that gives you free clerical spells for an entire year... So that kinda is quite powerful
Hariman 11-28-07, 01:25 AM	Well, I'm sure that there's always the ETV.. I've seen a favour that gives you free clerical spells for an entire year... So that kinda is quite powerful I saw a favor that granted a character free spells as spell like abilities, but that "favor" gave the DM the option of having the character make a will save or end up running in fear for 10 rounds. (At least 10 rounds, I forget the exact number.) I have a favor on one of my characters that lets me buy an item for 20% off of it's normal value. (Hello early cloak of charisma +4 for my sorcerer.) I don't think that one shot freedom of movement or timestop favors are broken. You EARNED the time stop favor in Time's Tide if you got it.
TimRat 11-28-07, 09:14 AM	send me the adventure name of the favor as well thanks
Puggle Halfwine 11-28-07, 12:58 PM	Heya TimRat, sorry about the delay. The favour/module name should be in your inbox. I'd like to stress that, for everyone reading this thread, that I meant to say that 'common place' was a place "I commonly played in"; it could be regional, metaregional or even core. I didn't mean to imply strictly that it was any particular place.
Vamroc 11-28-07, 02:12 PM	I saw a favor that granted a character free spells as spell like abilities, but that "favor" gave the DM the option of having the character make a will save or end up running in fear for 10 rounds. (At least 10 rounds, I forget the exact number.) I have a favor on one of my characters that lets me buy an item for 20% off of it's normal value. (Hello early cloak of charisma +4 for my sorcerer.) I don't think that one shot freedom of movement or timestop favors are broken. You EARNED the time stop favor in Time's Tide if you got it. Ever play the retired Sympathy for the Batzuu if you join the Prince of Blades sect (Kelanan Worshipers) you gain a magic tatto. This tatto gives you the destruction domain's Smite power at minus 3 to damage FOR AS LONG AS THIS GOD IS WORSHIPED. My Wizard/Spellsword is tenth right now so I get +4 to attack and +7 to damage and the damage increases by +1 with each level. To make it even better I took the Extra Smitting feat so I can do it 3 time a day. A Wizard who can Smite it's just so wrong yet it feels so good :king:
Hariman 11-28-07, 08:45 PM	Ever play the retired Sympathy for the Baatezu if you join the Prince of Blades sect (Kelanan Worshipers) you gain a magic tatto. This tatto gives you the destruction domain's Smite power at minus 3 to damage FOR AS LONG AS THIS GOD IS WORSHIPED. My Wizard/Spellsword is tenth right now so I get +4 to attack and +7 to damage and the damage increases by +1 with each level. To make it even better I took the Extra Smiting feat so I can do it 3 time a day. A Wizard who can Smite it's just so wrong yet it feels so good :king: Heard of it, but came too late to LG to play it. Don't you have to wield only swords and never use other weapons as a worshiper of Kelanen? It actually sounds like it would be fun, if you're into a gish type. (Which you are) Or if you can apply the smite to a whirling blade spell.
_metz_ 11-28-07, 10:16 PM	Ever play the retired Sympathy for the Batzuu if you join the Prince of Blades sect (Kelanan Worshipers) you gain a magic tatto. This tatto gives you the destruction domain's Smite power at minus 3 to damage FOR AS LONG AS THIS GOD IS WORSHIPED. My Wizard/Spellsword is tenth right now so I get +4 to attack and +7 to damage and the damage increases by +1 with each level. To make it even better I took the Extra Smitting feat so I can do it 3 time a day. A Wizard who can Smite it's just so wrong yet it feels so good :king: All Roads Leads to Rauxes was a great game, I enjoyed it. It was a reasonably epicish game too, dangerous, and full of funky stuff. That mod also gave you a one off template for a mod if you did things right. Wanna be a half dragon or half celestial for LGs final mod? well I know a bunch of people who will be... (And hopefully it won't be dissapointing like The Bright sands arc ending mind you!)
draxynnic 11-28-07, 11:57 PM	I'm going to remember the 'no artifacts' rule. Not that the item in question really mattered... but it's nice to know there was at least some limit. (Given the nature of the favour, it was silly including artifacts anyway). Personally, I think it should have some sort of gold value limit - either flat, set by the APL at which the module was played, or set by current character level.
Madfox11 11-29-07, 04:47 AM	Ever play the retired Sympathy for the Batzuu if you join the Prince of Blades sect (Kelanan Worshipers) you gain a magic tatto. This tatto gives you the destruction domain's Smite power at minus 3 to damage FOR AS LONG AS THIS GOD IS WORSHIPED. My Wizard/Spellsword is tenth right now so I get +4 to attack and +7 to damage and the damage increases by +1 with each level. To make it even better I took the Extra Smitting feat so I can do it 3 time a day. A Wizard who can Smite it's just so wrong yet it feels so good :king: AND as long as you live by the tenents of his faith... meaning that among other things you can use no other weapons than spell, blades and crossbows (it is the crossbow part that seems to hurt most who have this feat). Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk circle member The Splintered Suns
TimRat 11-29-07, 09:01 AM	Ok what happened here is that the wrong AR was sent to HQ and thus this AR will be errata'd asap. Sorry about this but it was a case of multiple ARs being redone and the wrong one being sent in.
solbergb 11-29-07, 12:57 PM	That's a relief :) Human error is so much more comforting than that the favor was intended the way the OP said it was written.
Vamroc 11-30-07, 09:24 PM	AND as long as you live by the tenents of his faith... meaning that among other things you can use no other weapons than spell, blades and crossbows (it is the crossbow part that seems to hurt most who have this feat). Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk circle member The Splintered Suns The one question I did have was if "blades" included axes scythes ect... It's not important as my primary weapon is a adamantine great sword and I haven't use the axe since I got the tatto.
Puggle Halfwine 12-02-07, 04:20 AM	Ok what happened here is that the wrong AR was sent to HQ and thus this AR will be errata'd asap. Sorry about this but it was a case of multiple ARs being redone and the wrong one being sent in. Ok, thank you very much for following this up for me, TimRat. Cheers, Dave.
MwaO 12-02-07, 10:02 AM	The one question I did have was if "blades" included axes scythes ect... It's not important as my primary weapon is a adamantine great sword and I haven't use the axe since I got the tatto. No, blades only include swords and daggers.
Hariman 12-02-07, 11:36 PM	No, blades only include swords and daggers. That means you've got Slashing and Piercing covered. DR/Bludgeoning is now your worst enemy.
Vamroc 12-03-07, 01:27 AM	That means you've got Slashing and Piercing covered. DR/Bludgeoning is now your worst enemy. That's what spells like Evard's Black Tentacles and Vampiric Touch are for. :evillaugh
Madfox11 12-03-07, 03:44 AM	MwaO is correct. Swords and daggers are the only bladed weapons.
draxynnic 12-03-07, 07:46 AM	Technically, the sharp bit of pretty much any slashing weapon is a blade, whether it's axelike, swordlike, scythelike, or anythingelselike. For Kelanen, however, only the swordlike blades count.
solbergb 12-03-07, 12:56 PM	That means you've got Slashing and Piercing covered. DR/Bludgeoning is now your worst enemy. Really only a problem with liches. Carry some holy water, or help grapple it or something. Skeletons don't have enough DR to matter. Xorns don't either. Not much else has DR/bludgeon.
KarmaInferno 12-03-07, 01:57 PM	DR Bludgeoning? What's the problem? You pick up the nearest building and hit the beastie with it. :) -karma
Mattastrophic 12-03-07, 03:43 PM	DR/bludgeoning has a funny way of only mattering at APL 2, I've noticed. It's stuff like DR/good and silver that you should work on being able to overcome. -Matt
solbergb 12-03-07, 06:49 PM	DR/bludgeoning has a funny way of only mattering at APL 2, I've noticed. -Matt Yeah. Luckily clubs are free, and for skellies clerics of kelanen can still cast magic stone (for use by another), or channel positive energy into them or turn them.
TimRat 12-05-07, 09:07 AM	ok the new AR is in the ordering database so anyone who orders the adventure will get the updated AR. i am going to post the new AR errata here and in my next article along with an update on the core series arc.
rockondon 12-05-07, 01:21 PM	my cleric got access to it and she's powerful enough imho, I was planning on using the favor for more exotic things that I would never really purchase and bring flavor to the game. Perhaps an apparatus of kwalish or those ivory goats figurines of wondrous power.
Hariman 12-05-07, 08:19 PM	DR/bludgeoning has a funny way of only mattering at APL 2, I've noticed. It's stuff like DR/good and silver that you should work on being able to overcome. -Matt Four Words: Oil of Bless Weapon. It might only last 10 rounds, but if you need it past 10 rounds, you're probably hosed anyway.
Mattastrophic 12-05-07, 08:23 PM	Oil of Bless Weapon. Takes too long to apply for my tastes, especially when swiftly-activating Sacred Scabbards exist now. And even then, it's a hassle, because I'd rather be activating my Belt of Battle. -Matt
magebeast 12-05-07, 08:23 PM	=an apparatus of kwalish best idea ever
JamesMaissen 12-05-07, 11:10 PM	Four Words: Oil of Bless Weapon. It might only last 10 rounds, but if you need it past 10 rounds, you're probably hosed anyway. Unless you are getting a Pious Templar to brew the potion, an oil of bless weapon lasts 20 rounds. For a paladin to cast it means that they are 4th level and hence 2nd caster level... you'll note that the oil costs 100gp as well. -James
solbergb 12-06-07, 10:11 AM	Takes too long to apply for my tastes, especially when swiftly-activating Sacred Scabbards exist now. And even then, it's a hassle, because I'd rather be activating my Belt of Battle. -Matt You can't afford those at APL2 and you probably don't have access to them on most of your characters either. I've never seen access to either. YMMV by region but for the low level chars, a plain silver weapon, cold iron weapon, backup weapons to cover 3 damage types, oil of magic weapon (or shillelagh) and oil of bless weapon is how you deal with most DR
CdrcJsn 12-06-07, 03:39 PM	You can't afford those at APL2 and you probably don't have access to them on most of your characters either. I've never seen access to either. YMMV by region ... Yeah. I don't think I've seen them in Pale either. The scenario triad dude needs to get his act together and start releasing these goodies. It'll help balance the killer mods he likes to hit players with ;) As for powerful favors, I think the one that turns you into a half celestial/werebear/whatever is pretty powerful, though it only lasts a single mod. My mystic theurge is glad to have it for the last part of RHoD right now though. Flying mounts at APL4 or less is something I've seen and consider pretty unbalancing (Dire Chickens don't count). Cedric
Mattastrophic 12-06-07, 04:10 PM	You can't afford those at APL2 and you probably don't have access to them on most of your characters either. You also normally don't have to deal with DR/good and silver at APL 2, either. There's also Quickened Align Weapon, btw. My favorite is Undead Bane Weapon, though. -Matt
solbergb 12-06-07, 06:26 PM	My very first LG mod had DR good or silver in it. imps, lemures, manes make pretty good intro mod bad guys. As might a wererat. or a Fey, most of those are low CR. I had one LG character that had encountered a vampire spawn and two full vampires by level 4 (all in core mods). His first magic weapon was silvered. DR is something that happens right out of the gate. Because of this you can be sure that weapon merchants and potion merchants will explain to neophyte adventurers why they need a hammer to go with their sword, and the shillelagh oil and magic weapon oil vendors will argue fiercely about the merits of their product, and the bless weapon oil guy and holy water merchants will stand next to the cold iron and silver weapon merchants and poo-poo their offerings "how can you know which is best? with my product you don't have to!"
Mattastrophic 12-06-07, 07:38 PM	My very first LG mod had DR good or silver in it. Exactly, and I've been referring to "DR/good AND silver," like on a Horned Devil: It's stuff like DR/good and silver that you should work on being able to overcome. -Matt
_m_ 12-07-07, 12:32 AM	um... i got to be a shadowcaster... :D does that count?
_metz_ 12-07-07, 06:40 AM	um... i got to be a shadowcaster... :D does that count? Silly m. Though I agree that is the cheesiest thing I have seen access for given. I know, I have audited Alvin more than anyone else...
JohnduBois 12-07-07, 07:19 AM	The scenario triad dude needs to get his act together and start releasing these goodies. Keep in mind, too, that many "scenario triad dudes" are limited by what their Circle member thinks is appropriate. I've submitted ARs with certain access, had it denied, and then seen the same item on an AR in a different metaregion (or Core) the next week. You'll see different stuff in different places. It's just a reflection of how the different Circle members think. It's pretty widely known among players in the Iuz metaregion that you can get heavily rewarded for doing some REALLY morally ambiguous things... but don't expect to see access to Sudden Metamagic feats.
magebeast 12-07-07, 10:59 AM	It's just a reflection of how the different Circle members think. It's pretty widely known among players in the Iuz metaregion that you can get heavily rewarded for doing some REALLY morally ambiguous things... but don't expect to see access to Sudden Metamagic feats. Not since year 4, at least.
Hariman 12-10-07, 11:57 AM	Unless you are getting a Pious Templar to brew the potion, an oil of bless weapon lasts 20 rounds. For a paladin to cast it means that they are 4th level and hence 2nd caster level... you'll note that the oil costs 100gp as well. -James Ooh, that's better than an oil of magic weapon. For double the cost.
solbergb 12-10-07, 04:24 PM	That's why most folks get both. Oil of Magic weapon or shillelagh for defeating DR/magic and getting a damage boost. Oil of bless weapon to defeat DR/Evil with no damage boost except the auto crit confirm thing. (and as a backup if you used the oil of magic weapon earlier and run into DR/magic again)
draxynnic 12-10-07, 10:59 PM	Until, of course, you get to the point where you don't need either... :evillaugh
Nutation 12-11-07, 02:57 AM	Unless you are getting a Pious Templar to brew the potion, an oil of bless weapon lasts 20 rounds. For a paladin to cast it means that they are 4th level and hence 2nd caster level... you'll note that the oil costs 100gp as well. And, for some reason, the scroll costs 100 gp as well, so - 40 rounds. Something for the Glory domain cleric to have on hand.
Hariman 12-11-07, 08:37 PM	And, for some reason, the scroll costs 100 gp as well, so - 40 rounds. Something for the Glory domain cleric to have on hand. Or anybody with 4 levels of Paladin.
JamesMaissen 12-11-07, 10:15 PM	Or anybody with 4 levels of Paladin. As long as they can make an easy caster level check of course. -James
Maesto 12-12-07, 01:16 PM	I've never understood why the oil of bless weapon was 100 gp, because you can craft items at below your maximum caster level. You need CL 3 to even take brew potion, from memory. Prime example is scribing scrolls - the 15th level wizard doesn't need to always craft the scrolls at maximum caster level; he can put CL 1 on a first level scroll. Should be the same for any paladin with brew potion; he should be able to brew a potion at CL 1, which is all that bless weapon needs. Besides, think of all the business that he'd get, undercutting the competition by 50%!
MwaO 12-12-07, 01:22 PM	I've never understood why the oil of bless weapon was 100 gp, because you can craft items at below your maximum caster level. You need CL 3 to even take brew potion, from memory. You have to cast spells at their minimum caster level. Mialee can't cast Fireball at less than 5th level in the example in PHB on page 171. Paladins can't cast 1st level spells until 4th, so their minimum caster level for 1st level spells is 2.
kenobi65 12-12-07, 02:24 PM	Paladins can't cast 1st level spells until 4th, so their minimum caster level for 1st level spells is 2. Bingo. The minimum caster level for a 1st level Paladin spell isn't 1st level, it's 2nd, as MwaO has described.
bitznarf 12-12-07, 03:13 PM	So are you saying that a sorcerer could not create a CL5 scroll of fireball? I'm just curious here as this is the first time I've looked at the subject.
kenobi65 12-12-07, 03:48 PM	So are you saying that a sorcerer could not create a CL5 scroll of fireball? I'm just curious here as this is the first time I've looked at the subject. I believe that that's correct, as well.
MwaO 12-12-07, 03:50 PM	So are you saying that a sorcerer could not create a CL5 scroll of fireball? I'm just curious here as this is the first time I've looked at the subject. Yes. Page 215 of DMG.
bitznarf 12-12-07, 05:15 PM	How does this impact classes like Unseen Seer? Could a Wiz2/Rogue3/UnS 3 make a CL4 fireball scroll?
RtrnofdMax 12-12-07, 06:13 PM	How does this impact classes like Unseen Seer? Could a Wiz2/Rogue3/UnS 3 make a CL4 fireball scroll? No, because you have to be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells to cast a fireball, and for wizard type character, that requires at least CL5. Sorceror, Warmage: CL6
magebeast 12-12-07, 07:12 PM	No, because you have to be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells to cast a fireball, and for wizard type character, that requires at least CL5. Sorceror, Warmage: CL6 You should examine this a little more carefully. The character described above can cast third level spells but has a caster level of four (barring feats) for all non-divination spells.
RedKnightofKet 12-12-07, 07:39 PM	You should examine this a little more carefully. The character described above can cast third level spells but has a caster level of four (barring feats) for all non-divination spells. How so? Unseen Seer adds caster level for each level, and it doesn't say anything about other spellcasting restrictions...
_metz_ 12-12-07, 07:55 PM	How so? Unseen Seer adds caster level for each level, and it doesn't say anything about other spellcasting restrictions... Please reread the class. It does in fact, reduce caster levels for non divination spells.
Hariman 12-12-07, 10:36 PM	As long as they can make an easy caster level check of course. -James That caster level check is for spells that are above the spell level that you can normally cast. So that would only apply to a 4th level paladin trying to cast a Second level paladin spell from a scroll, not to a paladin using a 1st level scroll that has a caster level of 4.
RtrnofdMax 12-13-07, 12:08 PM	You should examine this a little more carefully. The character described above can cast third level spells but has a caster level of four (barring feats) for all non-divination spells. First off, I appreciate the respectful way in which you disagreed with me. Now for a rebuttal: The PHB (p. 171) states, "If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)." This states that you must have CL5 to cast a fireball. Since this character does not have CL5 for non-div spells, I would say that he can't cast a fireball except from a scroll. Now this answer disturbs me because it would prevent a character from casting some of his spells due to too low of a CL, but would not allow him to cast higher level spells due to high CL. Am I wrong in my assumption? As far as I know, the level (1-9) of spells you can cast is determined by your levels in a spellcasting class, not your caster level. So if that character takes 3 more levels for UnS and becomes a Rogue3/Wiz2/UnS6, he has 8 levels in a spellcasting class, CL6 for non-div and CL10 for div. Does this mean he can cast 5th level div spells and can only cast 3rd level non-div spells, or does this mean he can cast 4th level div spells as a 10th level character would and can only cast 3rd level non-div spells?
magebeast 12-13-07, 12:44 PM	The only thing that I can suggest in reply is that while the iconic character described in the PHB is indeed a Wizard, that description isn't entirely accurate for a Wiz2/Rog3/Unseen Seer 3. It's a Wizard with some unseen seer levels, which may change things.
bitznarf 12-13-07, 12:55 PM	Now this answer disturbs me because it would prevent a character from casting some of his spells due to too low of a CL, but would not allow him to cast higher level spells due to high CL. Am I wrong in my assumption? I would go with the idea that just as the minimum caster level changes for a sorcerer or bard, so too does it change for an Unseen Seer. Now how about some of the more mutted Sublime Chord builds out there... There are ways to get into the class and have a caster level of *2* (or perhaps even 1 via virtuoso) for sublime chord spells. That's right, level 4 spells cast at CL 1...
copperwyrmling 12-13-07, 03:17 PM	First off, I appreciate the respectful way in which you disagreed with me. Now for a rebuttal: The PHB (p. 171) states, "If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)." This states that you must have CL5 to cast a fireball. Since this character does not have CL5 for non-div spells, I would say that he can't cast a fireball except from a scroll. Well, technically what it says is that the wizard can't voluntarily reduce her CL for Fireball below 5. If a L5 wizard gets energy drained by a vampire, gaining two negative levels (but she has enough Int bonus / specialization to have three L3 spell slots), then she can still cast Fireball, it'll just be a CL 3 Fireball (doing 3d6 damage, and it will only be at +3 to beat SR). I would go with the idea that just as the minimum caster level changes for a sorcerer or bard, so too does it change for an Unseen Seer. This also seems (to me) like a reasonable way to look at it for prestige classes that reduce your caster level.
JamesMaissen 12-14-07, 08:17 AM	That caster level check is for spells that are above the spell level that you can normally cast. So that would only apply to a 4th level paladin trying to cast a Second level paladin spell from a scroll, not to a paladin using a 1st level scroll that has a caster level of 4. Incorrect. From the SRD: "If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. " -James
Hariman 12-15-07, 10:08 PM	Incorrect. From the SRD: "If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. " -James Ouch. At least a 5th level sorcerer can cast a scroll of fireball without a problem. He just can't cast it himself yet.
solbergb 12-17-07, 01:51 PM	Ouch. At least a 5th level sorcerer can cast a scroll of fireball without a problem. He just can't cast it himself yet. Yeah. I took shameless advantage of that with my sorc at level 3, 5 and 7 to get a few spells available that I might need in emergency.
MwaO 12-17-07, 05:43 PM	Yeah. I took shameless advantage of that with my sorc at level 3, 5 and 7 to get a few spells available that I might need in emergency. My Bard did as well - Haste is caster level 5...
RanielK 12-20-07, 09:59 PM	I personally like the (expired mod) favour that lets you be celestial for an entire module. Guess whose saving that for the last mod ever? I had that and had the same plan. Heh look! I'll retire by rocking the last Special or BI I play. I'll use the Int boost to make my spells more wicked (not to mention more bonus spells), my dex to make all those rays I specialize in easier to hit with and oooooh look WINGS! Then along came Hanging glacier and the Paly trap. My wild mage (the one with the favor) fell into it because he made the spellcraft roll to figure out what the big spell did and went "hey look you can be guardian and live forever!" *scratches head* "Meh! why not!" And thus was born my aasimar.