Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 02:15 PM	I finally am getting up there with some of my PC's, and it's asside from the fun of playing at the higher power levels, it's also cool actually getting an AR with nothing crossed off (except for bad stuff like jail or whatever). So hard to get tables of certain APL's though....
Lomiat 02-21-07, 07:50 PM	I just like that when you play at the highest APL and defeat the BBEG, you know you fought the "real" one--not the watered-down version that shows up for the lower-level PCs to face. "What? Behind all these dastardly machinations that encompass the realms and that have haunted our every move for three whole months, we find only a 5th-level human bard (with the half-fiend template)?"
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 08:07 PM	I just like that when you play at the highest APL and defeat the BBEG, you know you fought the "real" one--not the watered-down version that shows up for the lower-level PCs to face. "What? Behind all these dastardly machinations that encompass the realms and that have haunted our every move for three whole months, we find only a 5th-level human bard (with the half-fiend template)?" THat's a funny way of looking at it too, lol....
bitznarf 02-21-07, 08:50 PM	I just like that when you play at the highest APL and defeat the BBEG, you know you fought the "real" one--not the watered-down version that shows up for the lower-level PCs to face. "What? Behind all these dastardly machinations that encompass the realms and that have haunted our every move for three whole months, we find only a 5th-level human bard (with the half-fiend template)?" You mean you can't rule the world with a 5th level bard? Diplomacy is your friend. :smirk:
ShinAkuma2 02-21-07, 09:28 PM	It reminds me of a module where an extremely powerful Drider-lich's ultimate creation is a "Proto-Mummy" (aka a mummy denied a few key abilities) at low APLs.
Japangirl 02-21-07, 11:48 PM	It's also cool when the hooks make sense for you, finally. And when you're strong enough that it makes sense that certain types would go to you for help. "Oh no I need your help, brave adventurers! We were attacked by a party of slavers and I only barely teleported away!" *Three level 4-5ish wizards in the party exchange glances* "Yeah, I think you need more help than we can give you. Come back in a year or two when we can actually cast teleport too, and we'll talk . . ."
solbergb 02-22-07, 01:33 PM	Yeah...when I ran that module I made sure it was clear that the high level wizard was hiring the party for its tracking abilities and that he was fighting about half the monsters in each encounter where he was present. (he'd lead with a wall of ice, and the party would hear booms and roars of various evocations and dying humanoid screams going off on the other side...) I like mods where the boss abandons his minions when the PC shows up at lower levels, but is the boss at higher levels. I also saw one done well recently (playtest mod, so not out yet) where at lower levels the boss was most of the fight, but at upper levels it was his bodyguards and the effects of the ritual he was doing that provided the threat. The boss did get more powerful as APL tiered, but not smoothly...at the lowest levels he was just barely powerful enough to do the plot, and at the higher levels he capped at a level which was moderately powerful for the region/population center he was in, but not "legendary". It's kind of annoying when you run into a CR17 classed human who nobody has ever heard of before the module and you'll never hear of again. One Y5 duchy mod I played did that well...there were four CR17ish bad guys. Three were each heads of a branch of the noble house in question. The fourth was a retired PC. That was cool. It made sense. One thing I often do is tier the NPC attitudes toward the PC's to their actual abilities. APL2 or intro mod. Low Charisma NPC: "Well, we went to the Pious Pilgrim to get some REAL adventurers but they're all busy with the Troll Winter thing. So we're hiring you guys instead, because even if you get slaughtered we'll at least learn something: High charimsa NPC: "We've been watching you and feel you have great potential. Think of this as your big break, your chance to make your name for yourself. Yes it might be a little dangerous, but how can you be famous if you never take risks." Lady Karistyne: "If I go after the artifact, everyone will notice. You all are unknown, and can sneak in there no problem and get it without drawing attention." APL14 Low cha NPC: "Please please PLEASE rescue my familiar from that burning building. I know you probably don't stir for less than the destruction of an entire city by now, but if you aren't too busy, could you help?" High cha NPC: "We sought you out because you're the best in the land. We know your reputation and feel you could deal with the problem briskly and effectively. No amount of money we could offer would be worth your attention so I won't insult you by offering. We do however have contacts with those who teach secret techniques and will craft unusual items for a fee, and from what I've heard, you-all tend to find cash in any enterprise you attempt anyway." Lady Karistyne: "Frankly, my team isn't powerful enough to go after the artifact. So we brought you guys in. We'll handle logistics and research."
Samwise 02-22-07, 10:50 PM	Heh. That reminds me of the APL 14 table of Crimson Thorns I ran. "We figure if Grennell knows we can hire you guys, he'll be too afraid to declare war on us."
King Kashue 02-23-07, 12:06 AM	It's kind of annoying when you run into a CR17 classed human who nobody has ever heard of before the module and you'll never hear of again. One Y5 duchy mod I played did that well...there were four CR17ish bad guys. Three were each heads of a branch of the noble house in question. The fourth was a retired PC. That was cool. It made sense. In a Y5 Nyrond Mod There was a lvl 20 Priest of Hextor, just chilling out in the sewers of Oldred... Nevermind that Grennell only has 19 levels of Cleric (though he was an assassin in 1st ed., so whatever on that account :D) Another cool way of scaling is what an author did on a current Nyrond mod (I won't say which, but I've mentioned it to him already) is to have the bad guy beat up to varying degrees when the PCs get to him. It's explained in the context of the mod, and it's a nifty way of having an internal logic without actually reducing the nominal level of the NPC...
solbergb 02-23-07, 12:50 AM	Another cool way of scaling is what an author did on a current Nyrond mod (I won't say which, but I've mentioned it to him already) is to have the bad guy beat up to varying degrees when the PCs get to him. It's explained in the context of the mod, and it's a nifty way of having an internal logic without actually reducing the nominal level of the NPC... You have to be very careful with that. I've seen it done with level drain too, but sometimes it scales badly. After all, Lord Robilar even down to single digit hitpoints can still TPK a party if he gets an action.
King Kashue 02-23-07, 12:54 AM	You have to be very careful with that. I've seen it done with level drain too, but sometimes it scales badly. After all, Lord Robilar even down to single digit hitpoints can still TPK a party if he gets an action. Yeah, this author was careful, especially in choosing debuffs and such to reduce not just hitpoints but fighting capacity. And it obviously works best with a smaller APL span.
chrisinpm 02-23-07, 01:01 PM	It reminds me of a module where an extremely powerful Drider-lich's ultimate creation is a "Proto-Mummy" (aka a mummy denied a few key abilities) at low APLs. Had you played at the playtest table where the normal mummy was used, you'd have understood why it got nerfed. :eek: Christian Alipounarian
bhale187 02-23-07, 04:03 PM	Had you played at the playtest table where the normal mummy was used, you'd have understood why it got nerfed. :eek: Christian Alipounarian It seems to me the better choice is to make such a mod high APL only, and keep the low APLs with monsters that fit the story AND the challenge rating.
Vamroc 02-26-07, 04:56 PM	Now under the new crafting guidelines any item you have access to with an enchantment allows you to craft another item with that enchantment. So it really pays off to play up on some mods and if you survive you have APL 10 access as a level 6 player which kicks arse. So what if you have half XP half GP you just got access to Star Metal and Bane: Outsier, Evil wepon enchantment. Why yes I would love a great sword that does an additional 3D6 versus evil outsiders. If you find the Mage Bane enchantment you can crank it you to 5D6 making for a total of 7D6. To have a weapon of that power at sixth or seventh level is huge.
solbergb 02-26-07, 05:21 PM	If you find the Mage Bane enchantment you can crank it you to 5D6 making for a total of 7D6. To have a weapon of that power at sixth or seventh level is huge. But you can't afford a weapon of that kind till level 10ish anyway. So what difference does it make? (whose characters always have WAY more access than they can spend money on)
Japangirl 02-26-07, 06:54 PM	(whose characters always have WAY more access than they can spend money on) I wanna play in YOUR region.
copper_wyrmling 02-26-07, 06:57 PM	I wanna play in YOUR region. Yeah :weep: Although at L15, my cleric now has far more access than she can spend money on - but every single item on her current shopping list has been gained since she reached L15 (and in fact, all those items come from a total of two high-APL-only ARs).
King Kashue 02-26-07, 07:30 PM	I wanna play in YOUR region. You know, people always complain about their access, but I play mods from three different metaregions and have seen decent access in all of them. I always wonder what mods the "I'm 700th level and I've never seen any adamantine access" people are playing...
Lomiat 02-26-07, 07:43 PM	Now that all the ability-booster items are Open, I wonder how much we'll hear about people who complain that they can't find any decent access. In the meantime, my wizard, unfortunately, has something like 100,000 gp of items available to him--and not nearly so much gp saved. My fighter wants only one item to which he hasn't gained access and intends to save about 27,000 gp for it in case it shows.
solbergb 02-26-07, 08:51 PM	Actually most of my access came from core modules. A lot is from favors. I've also played in several regions and metaregions (Tusmit, Ket, Duchy Urnst, Nyrond, Pale, Bandit Kingdoms, NMR, IUZ, VDF, Core, core specials, adapatables). I don't see much variation between the regions, except maybe the Duchy gives out a few more favors. Japangirl - of my very best access mods came from an IUZ metaregional and the Y5 BK mods gave out fairly decent stuff (including adamantine access that I was hoping for). Got those at the same con where I floated your rogue into full attack position a couple times with servant horde (a tactic that is harder to carry off than it sounds). But lets look what LGCS gives now. Every character needs the following: 1. At least two +6 stat boost items (36000gp each) 2. A +5 resistance item (25000gp) That right there is 100% of the cash you'll earn until level 10 (actually till about 10.5) In addition to these items, most chars will be buying some other stuff off the core list. Every char has different priorities, so I'll just pick one at random. Just taking an armor class tank for example, he'll want +5 heavy armor and a +5 ring. That's another 75k, plus a bit for the early enchantments on his shield (he'll hold out for animation, likely, so only +1) and on weapons (several, call it 97+75+8k to round it off to 180k) and now we're halfway to L13. Assuming by L13 that he's found an animated shield enhancement and Holy weapon enhancement, adamantine and boots of speed, that's another 36k or so. Toss in the haversack and consumables and now you're at 220k and well on the way to L14 wealth. You only get 440k or so of total wealth by L15 - but HALF of that is in the LAST TWO LEVELS. Futhermore only 1/4 of that total is earned by level 11. So you've had time to accumulate quite a bit of favors, core, regional and metaregional access. The above mentioned fighter can easily burn through that cash upgrading his animated shield, getting another ring, improving his weapons further and getting misc stuff that allows him to fly or whatever. Even in the absolute worst case a fighter can spend through his cash like this: amulet health+6 belt strength+6 gloves dex+6 vest resist+5 fullplate+5 (8 dex fighter..why not?) tower shield+5 ring protection+5 armor spikes+5 maxed strength comp bow+5 (lets say, +8 str) reach weapon+5 (cold iron) 1h melee weapon+5 (silvered) haversack potions csw, fly, bless weapon, prot evil, enlarge person That's a bit over 440000 Most characters would do far better than that on equipment.
copper_wyrmling 02-26-07, 09:51 PM	Are you sure of those numbers, Brad? If they're accurate, then either my PCs are spending a lot more on consumables than I thought they were, or they're a lot further behind the gold curve than I thought they were... The DMG gives expected wealth by level as 49k at L10, 88k at L12, 200k at L15. I know that crafters break those rules, but for a standard fighter... 440k at 15? Really? My cleric got to 15 in about 85 ARs, iirc. To earn 440k in that time, she'd have to average 5000gp / module. That seems waaaaaay off, even counting the occasional two-rounder.
King Kashue 02-26-07, 10:21 PM	My cleric got to 15 in about 85 ARs, iirc. Then you played up a lot... Playing max APL on every AR (with no mini-missions nor core specials), a Character makes 15 on AR 81... That same character will only have earned 308,140 gp (at the end of the career). So Sol's numbers are significantly off. Edit: Looking at the numbers if a character never plays up, it's 106 ARs, and 250K gold... And if they play up half (or 4 out of 7) of their APL-1 situations (which is roughly average) it's 101 ARs, and 271,600 gp.
copper_wyrmling 02-26-07, 10:34 PM	Then you played up a lot... Playing max APL on every AR (with no mini-missions nor core specials), a Character makes 15 on AR 81... That same character will only have earned 308,000 gp. So Sol's numbers are significantly off. I just checked, it was AR 86, although there was a conversion AR in there. I'm kinda surprised AR 81 is the earliest, since I've played interactives and special missions with that character and also played for half reward a few times (due to being out of tier) - I guess I have done three Core Specials and quite a lot of two-round mods with her, though. Those 86 ARs represented about 140-150 TUs of play (i.e. two years of running out of TUs, she reached 15 in November of her third year of play), with no crafting and no deaths, and fairly minor meta-org commitments compared to a lot of people. Constantly playing up has a much bigger effect on your gold total than it does on your XP total though, since at the higher APLs gold scales much faster with APL than XP does. I think the DMG wealth/level guidelines are actually fairly accurate for Living Greyhawk PCs who don't craft, don't die and mostly play at their APL.
bhale187 02-26-07, 10:44 PM	Those must not be taking into consideration interactives, specials, etc that give double gp and xp of a standard 1 round module AR reward.
Britt 02-26-07, 10:45 PM	Those must not be taking into consideration interactives, specials, etc that give at double gp and xp of a standard 1 round module AR reward. Only core specials do that. Interactives and special missions give 1/2 gp/xp.
bhale187 02-26-07, 10:48 PM	My bad, I thought interactives had the same rewards as specials. Anyway you could still get in several specials a year, especially if you traveled.
King Kashue 02-26-07, 10:58 PM	I think the DMG wealth/level guidelines are actually fairly accurate for Living Greyhawk PCs who don't craft, don't die and mostly play at their APL. For just leveling to 15th: Always playing up: 255,340 (AR 81) Average (APL-1 all the time): 224,540 (AR 88) Average play (APL-1 half the time): 212,240 (AR 92) Never playing up: 196,990 (AR 98) Always playing down: 160,190 (AR 108)
Japangirl 02-26-07, 11:55 PM	Actually most of my access came from core modules. A lot is from favors. I've also played in several regions and metaregions (Tusmit, Ket, Duchy Urnst, Nyrond, Pale, Bandit Kingdoms, NMR, IUZ, VDF, Core, core specials, adapatables). I don't see much variation between the regions, except maybe the Duchy gives out a few more favors. Japangirl - of my very best access mods came from an IUZ metaregional and the Y5 BK mods gave out fairly decent stuff (including adamantine access that I was hoping for). Got those at the same con where I floated your rogue into full attack position a couple times with servant horde (a tactic that is harder to carry off than it sounds). Hee that was a lot of fun! I appreciated it every time, getting a full attack is not a common occurrence. And partly it's been bad luck on my part, my wizard has lots of adamantine access while my rogue has only one (at +50% cost), but I know lots of high level people in the BK who lack access to things like adamantium.
Lupo 02-27-07, 03:27 AM	You know, people always complain about their access, but I play mods from three different metaregions and have seen decent access in all of them. I always wonder what mods the "I'm 700th level and I've never seen any adamantine access" people are playing... yes, some people haven't seen adamantine access EVER. level 13 level cleric: once a very specific three item access to adamantine, way to early, couldn't afford, adventure only, way before adventure plus three ARs. access to specific adamantine AMOR two times on the last couple of ARs that is it. level 10 druid: access to mundane adamantine hammer and nails ONCE, nothing else. none of the numerous lower level characters with ANY access to adamantine. the problem is to play a module with the right character at the right APL to get the goodies. on the other hand, my cleric has seen PoPs up to level four ;) and my druid up to level three ;). ciao martin m.
Cynric 02-27-07, 03:59 AM	yes, some people haven't seen adamantine access EVER. level 10 druid: access to mundane adamantine hammer and nails ONCE, nothing else. martin m. Try it the other way, my druid and cleric (not combat) have heaps of Adamantine, starmetal etc access. My fighter, not once. Frankly it annoys me when I play my cleric because there is no other healing around because you can guarantee that is when the access for my fighter is going to turn up. But that is what I get for being a team player I suppose.
solbergb 02-27-07, 09:41 AM	Are you sure of those numbers, Brad? If they're accurate, then either my PCs are spending a lot more on consumables than I thought they were, or they're a lot further behind the gold curve than I thought they were... The DMG gives expected wealth by level as 49k at L10, 88k at L12, 200k at L15. I know that crafters break those rules, but for a standard fighter... 440k at 15? Really? . Hm...my chart must have been off, or I miscounted. I was going off L16 wealth though, not L15 wealth (you do after all, get to buy stuff during level 15. I thought it was 88k at L11 though, so probably 440k is the L17 wealth. Whatever. Less cash just reinforces my point better. Right now, with nothing more than std access, you can easily spend all the cash you'll ever earn on stuff you can use, even if you get zero favors or useful longterm AR items or useful adventure access stuff when you have cash for it. And we al know, that by level 12, you'll have a metric ton of special access too. Furthermore once the year 6 and early Year 7 mods go away, we'll stop seeing AR's cluttered with stuff that we already have access to, just as when the Y3 and 4s went away we stopped seeing the less expensive potions, scrolls and +2 stat items on the AR's.