Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banndon 05-21-06, 12:08 PM	When you polymorph something (let's say a giant crocodile animal compagnion) into an hydra you don't get the extra attacks of the multiple heads. You only get the number of attacks you already had in your original form. If you've got extra limbs you can't use them...as stated in alterself) All you get in the polymorphed shape are the extra special attacks.... But when a Behir rakes (special attack)....doesn't it uses some or all off it's other limbs? When you gain a fly speed in griffon form, don't you use your extra limbs: wings? It's a contraction that must have a ruling somehow. You can or cannot uses extra limbs when polymorphed. It's one or the other. You can make something work in one form and don't in an another without sacrifying another chunk of verisimilitude.
Arvagor 05-21-06, 04:38 PM	Not a contradiction, because the spell(s) specifically state what is and isn't permitted. For the record, alter self doesn't say you can't use extra limbs at all, it says, "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. As far as your griffon flight example, alter self specifically permits that as well, as it is a mundane form of movement for that creature. Yes, if you used polymorph instead, to take the form of a behir, you would gain the Constrict, Improved Grab, Rake, and Swallow Whole special attacks because the are (Ex) and not (Su). So why do you get these when they obviously use extra limbs (esp. Rake)? Because the polymorph spell says you do -- it's magic, try not to think too hard about it...
Banndon 05-23-06, 01:53 PM	My problem is that if I polymorph one of my compagnions rhino animal compagnion into a 12 headed hydra he will make a single attack with a single head. (I know it's cheese but some of those mods out there deserve cheese.) If you can use extra limbs for movement or special attacks (like rake) why can't you use them to attack?
Arvagor 05-23-06, 02:07 PM	If you can use extra limbs for movement or special attacks (like rake) why can't you use them to attack?Because alter self (and by extension, polymorph) say you can't -- it's just that simple... BTW, it strikes me that polymorphing a rhino into a hydra is a waste of a spell... Presuming your talking about an rhino animal companion for a Drd15, then at most, the rhino becomes a 12-headed hydra with a single bite attack at +17 melee (2d8+6) or 8-24 points damage; your 12 HD rhino's normal attack is Gore +17 melee (2d6+13) or 15-25 -- same to hit, but better damage in the long run, so why change it into the hydra? Just for 5' extra reach?
ShinAkuma2 05-23-06, 02:42 PM	The spell gives enough control that you can move, but not enough for you to control all those new limbs to make a coordinated effort for attacking. Simple enough?
Arvagor 05-23-06, 02:55 PM	Actually, no offense Shin, but that's a terrible way to rationalize it... Flight is a highly coordinated activity for a creature, even if instinctual in some sense. Swapping at a creature with two claws would require far less coordination, IMO, than what would be required for a creature to be able to fly with wings it never had before... Better to leave it at "It's magic" or "The spell says you can't"; it may not be the most satisfying explanation, but trying to rationalize it only makes things worse...
Banndon 05-23-06, 05:27 PM	Because alter self (and by extension, polymorph) say you can't -- it's just that simple... BTW, it strikes me that polymorphing a rhino into a hydra is a waste of a spell... Presuming your talking about an rhino animal companion for a Drd15, then at most, the rhino becomes a 12-headed hydra with a single bite attack at +17 melee (2d8+6) or 8-24 points damage; your 12 HD rhino's normal attack is Gore +17 melee (2d6+13) or 15-25 -- same to hit, but better damage in the long run, so why change it into the hydra? Just for 5' extra reach? A rhino animal compagnion is available to druids of level 8 and up. It is by far the best animal compagnion. The powerful charge ability, power attack feat and the buff spells make it a charging nightmare...specially if you're an arcane hierophant... The current rhino I can cast it on is a celestial rhino animal compagnion+familiar of a 12th level arcane hierophant Why change it into an Hydra? If you COULD attack with all heads...that's 12 AOOs and 12 attacks per round... with buff spells from the druid and wizard spell list...*rip-rip-rip* Now the problem I've got with polymorph is that you can use your extra limbs for everything from movement to complex maneuvers such as rake, pounce, rending, etc... but not for a simple standard attack. You polymorph into a giant octopus...you can move and crawl with all 8 tentacules but you can slam with only 1 or 2!!! Basically, polymorph is only useful to gain movement types (that can be gained more efficiently with other spells), special attacks (that you can use with limbs you are not aware of ?!?) or a powerful humanoid form... this is a very cool spell nerfed to be a very boring one. It's one big non-sense for the sake of game balance (it sticks out like a sore thumb)...but I can think of a dozen of other ways to limit polymorph without sacrifying verisimilitude. Size increase limit is a good start in LG. What about keeping your Constitution score? Or will saves to resist becoming mentally the beast you changed into...
Maesto 05-28-06, 10:41 PM	Can somebody explain this "you only get one attack" thing to me? I read that you get all of the natural attacks, which for a giant octopus should be a lot of tentacles! Alternatively, if I alter self myself into a trog, do I not get two claw attacks and a bite attack? Jolyon
Banndon 05-29-06, 09:37 PM	Can somebody explain this "you only get one attack" thing to me? I read that you get all of the natural attacks, which for a giant octopus should be a lot of tentacles! Alternatively, if I alter self myself into a trog, do I not get two claw attacks and a bite attack? Jolyon True, but if you read carefully alter self, you'll understand the problem. It states that you cannot use any additional limbs. So if you normaly have 2 arms and 2 legs, when you polymorph (it as alter self) into a Girallon the extra pair of arms can't be used. They just hang there.
boolean 05-31-06, 04:15 AM	The rules are a little unclear whether that restriction applies to all attacks, or only to manufactured weapons. The common interpretation I've seen is that natural weapons are O.K. (A druid wild shaped into a tiger gets the full claw/claw/bite for example, but a fighter polymorphed into a girallon can't use his four arms to wield four longswords.)
Maesto 05-31-06, 11:41 PM	So you're saying that a wizard polymorphed into a roper gets no strand attacks?
Banndon 06-01-06, 10:20 AM	The rules are a little unclear whether that restriction applies to all attacks, or only to manufactured weapons. The common interpretation I've seen is that natural weapons are O.K. (A druid wild shaped into a tiger gets the full claw/claw/bite for example, but a fighter polymorphed into a girallon can't use his four arms to wield four longswords.) Mmmh...I looked in the MM under "natural attacks" and it clearly states that natural attack is anythings that is part of the body of the creature. If you correlate this and the statement in alter self that says you gain ALL natural attacks then you can attack with all 4 arms of a Girallon (and other such broken combo, like hydras). But you can't have extra attacks due to high BAB or feats.