Zuoken Cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Zuoken Cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adolfo_Mondschein
02-15-07, 12:17 AM I have a cleric who worships Zuoken. He takes the War domain... what does he get? Did I miss something? Does he gain improved unarmed strike, Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, or is he just out of luck?

I have to ask because Unarmed Strike is not a martial weapon... in fact it technically isn't exotic either...
Jay_Ibero_911
02-15-07, 12:30 AM I have a cleric who worships Zuoken. He takes the War domain... what does he get? Did I miss something? Does he gain improved unarmed strike, Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, or is he just out of luck?

I have to ask because Unarmed Strike is not a martial weapon... in fact it technically isn't exotic either...

Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon. A Cleric of Zuoken with the War Domain would recieve weapon focus (Unarmed Strike). Clerics are already proficient with all simple weapons, so that's all they get.
Adolfo_Mondschein
02-15-07, 12:53 AM Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon. A Cleric of Zuoken with the War Domain would recieve weapon focus (Unarmed Strike). Clerics are already proficient with all simple weapons, so that's all they get.

If unarmed strike is actually a simple weapon, then why does it provoke an AOO when I use it? If i'm really proficient with it I wouldn't. So basically, I provoke an AOO with a weapon I'm "especially good with"? That makes no sense...
Lupo
02-15-07, 01:12 AM If unarmed strike is actually a simple weapon, then why does it provoke an AOO when I use it? If i'm really proficient with it I wouldn't. So basically, I provoke an AOO with a weapon I'm "especially good with"? That makes no sense...

your cleric seems to be out of luck, without the proper feat "improved unarmed attack" you only get a +1 to hit while unarmed, nothing more.

you might get a DM to let you use this in conjunction with the double FAQ rulings on "spiked gauntlets" but as the FAQ is contradicting itself on this topic and the liberal interpretation would make it possible to use two different boni - "weapon focus [spiked gauntlet]" and "weapon focus [unarmed strike]" - with basically the same weapon, so expect table variations.

ciao

martin m.
Adolfo_Mondschein
02-15-07, 01:24 AM *sigh* I wish it wasn't so complicated.... I mean I would only deal 1d3 + str... It's not like I'm a fighter pumping out 2d8+ 1 1/2 str or a monk flurrying with 1d6+str and 1d6+str...
Jay_Ibero_911
02-15-07, 01:25 AM *sigh* I wish it wasn't so complicated.... I mean I would only deal 1d3 + str... It's not like I'm a fighter pumping out 2d8+ 1 1/2 str or a monk flurrying with 1d6+str and 1d6+str...

The real question is why did you choose the war domain if you either didn't have monk levels or aren't planning on taking any?
ranagrande
02-15-07, 01:28 AM *sigh* I wish it wasn't so complicated.... I mean I would only deal 1d3 + str... It's not like I'm a fighter pumping out 2d8+ 1 1/2 str or a monk flurrying with 1d6+str and 1d6+str...

Yeah, unless you plan on being some kind of Cleric/Monk multiclass it is slightly suboptimal. I wouldn't worry much though. War is a good domain, even if you don't get anything from the granted power.
Adolfo_Mondschein
02-15-07, 01:41 AM I was entertaining the thought of taking monk at a higher level. I just wanted to know if I could actually get some use out of the weapon focus... I guess if theirs no way around it I'll take a level of monk later... but for now I'm playing mostly a healer and backup melee role. Having weapon focus would have just made up for my low base attack bonus. At my level hitting is what's important. I'd much rather hit with a weak weapon than miss with strong one.
Adolfo_Mondschein
02-15-07, 01:45 AM your cleric seems to be out of luck, without the proper feat "improved unarmed attack" you only get a +1 to hit while unarmed, nothing more.

you might get a DM to let you use this in conjunction with the double FAQ rulings on "spiked gauntlets" but as the FAQ is contradicting itself on this topic and the liberal interpretation would make it possible to use two different boni - "weapon focus [spiked gauntlet]" and "weapon focus [unarmed strike]" - with basically the same weapon, so expect table variations.

ciao

martin m.

Do you have a link? I'd appreciate it.
Lupo
02-15-07, 03:42 AM Do you have a link? I'd appreciate it.

it is on page 14 of the current FAQ:

"A"

Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of
blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the
gauntlets with her unarmed strikes?
Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a
separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s
Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows.
A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she
just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry
(she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead).
If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet
attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk).
Many magic items called gauntlets aren’t necessarily using
the same terminology. Gauntlets of ogre power, for example,
aren’t always metal gloves. It’s conceivable that a monk might
be wearing magic gauntlets that grant a special benefit on her
unarmed strikes without those gauntlets also serving as
weapons in their own right. In this case, the monk is making
unarmed strike attacks, not gauntlet attacks.

AND

"B"

Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an
unarmed strike?
A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed
strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a
gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the
damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows.

so A is saying a gauntlet CAN'T be used in a flurry AND is NOT an unarmed attack, while B is saying it is an unarmed attack AND CAN´be used in a flurry.

as you are considered "armed" with a gauntlet and don't provoke AoO because you are "armed" you might be able to get the use of your weapon focus with it, but expect massive table variations and me as a DM wouldn't give you this.

ciao

martin m.
King Kashue
02-15-07, 04:00 AM as you are considered "armed" with a gauntlet and don't provoke AoO because you are "armed" you might be able to get the use of your weapon focus with it, but expect massive table variations and me as a DM wouldn't give you this.

You are not considered armed with normal gauntlets.

PHB p. 117-118 "This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

Contrast with the spiked gauntlet description

PHB p. 118 "An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack".
UMiskatonic
02-15-07, 10:17 AM It's not complicated. You get +1 to hit with unarmed attacks. All other rules about unarmed attacks remain the same.
LachlarlanIII
02-15-07, 10:59 AM You can't receive Martial Weapon Prof. (Unarmed Strike) because Unarmed Strike is a Simple Weapon.

You would gain Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) though. You are still proficient with Unarmed Strike, though not as proficient as someone with Improved Unarmed Strike would be.
Archwolf
02-15-07, 01:14 PM As far as I'm concerned, Zuocken was designed for Sacred Fists. Monk 2/cleric 4/Sacred Fist 9. BAB +13, 12 caster levels, flaming fists, and you take strength and either war or celerity domains.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-15-07, 01:16 PM As far as I'm concerned, Zuocken was designed for Sacred Fists. Monk 2/cleric 4/Sacred Fist 9. BAB +13, 12 caster levels, flaming fists, and you take strength and either war or celerity domains.

Why strength domain? The domain power sucks for anything but full cleric. Now War AND Celerity makes a good combo.
Lupo
02-15-07, 01:49 PM You are not considered armed with normal gauntlets.

PHB p. 117-118 "This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

Contrast with the spiked gauntlet description

PHB p. 118 "An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack".

uhps, yes it is "spiked gauntlets" i am referring to, but the FAQ refers to them simply as "gauntlets" as well ;)

ciao

martin m.

ps: anyway, i wouldn't build any character around it, as some day the wonderful company of WotC will clear this mess in their FAQ and you never know what THEY will make up as a new ruling.
King Kashue
02-15-07, 03:18 PM uhps, yes it is "spiked gauntlets" i am referring to, but the FAQ refers to them simply as "gauntlets" as well ;)

No it doesn't. :D

The FAQ is referring to the weapon "gauntlet" in the passages you cited. If it was referring to spiked gauntlets, it would say "spiked gauntlets", as it does elsewhere in its text.
Archwolf
02-15-07, 03:29 PM Why strength domain? The domain power sucks for anything but full cleric. Now War AND Celerity makes a good combo.

Strength comes with feat of strength which, iirc, means once per day +1 strength per level, which means +13 strength by the end. , plus you get enlarge and bull's strength as domain spells, which is pretty great for punching or grappling. That said you make a fair point, any two of those three domains would do the job.
King Kashue
02-15-07, 04:12 PM Strength comes with feat of strength which, iirc, means once per day +1 strength per level, which means +13 strength by the end.

It's per cleric level (not caster level), you only get the bonus for your actual Cleric levels.

The Sacred Fist levels boost your caster level and spellcasting, not your cleric level for purposes of the domain ability (that's what the phrase "He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained" means :D)
clik_ml
02-15-07, 05:12 PM My grappling cleric is going to have the strength domain not for the crappy domain power, but for Enlarge Person.

Now that polymorph is gone, grappler clerics are pretty bad-ass.

Good 2nd domains are Competition (Llerg or Kord), War or Celerity (Zuoken).

I would steer clear of Sacred Fist, since they are intended to not perform, especially if you ever want to contribute against oozes, incorporeals, or anything needing ranged weapons. You'll feel like a rogue, without the pile of d6's. The no-weapon restriction is too much. Any damage gained by having monk damage is lost by not having weapon enhancements. The +1 BAB is less important since you have Divine Power in your bag of tricks anyway.

A grappling cleric will be on the look out for a monk's belt to get themselves some monk damage on their own anyway. Then you get to have plenty of table variation discussions on the interaction between monk damage and gauntlet use.
King Kashue
02-15-07, 06:18 PM A grappling cleric will be on the look out for a monk's belt to get themselves some monk damage on their own anyway.

Not if the grappling cleric is decent at Math :D

With the monk's belt, the cleric, instead of doing 1d3 of damage (avg 2pts) does a 1d8 (avg. 4.5), a gain of an average of 2.5pts of damage.

However, if that same cleric were wearing a Belt of giant strength (only a bit more in cost, and now Open access). The cleric gains 2 damage (only .5 less than with the monk's belt), but also gains +2 to hit, and +2 to their grapple check, which is WAY more valuable than any damage increase (especially one so miniscule as .5 of a point)...
ShinAkuma2
02-15-07, 07:50 PM And if you upgrade to +6, then there's no contest, especially in LG where you don't get Wisdom to AC from the belt.
clik_ml
02-16-07, 12:49 AM Divine Power grants +6 enhancement bonus to strength.
King Kashue
02-16-07, 12:54 AM Divine Power grants +6 enhancement bonus to strength.

And it lasts one round per level, and there are better Buffs to use (Righteous Might is way better)

A character that self buffs really can't spend more than one round buffing before they need to get into things. Any more than that and they're not carrying their weight. Too often people don't take that into account for their builds. They have like three or four round/level buffs they're planning for, except they'll never get all those off.
Munkwunk
02-16-07, 12:56 AM Strength comes with feat of strength which, iirc, means once per day +1 strength per level, which means +13 strength by the end. , plus you get enlarge and bull's strength as domain spells, which is pretty great for punching or grappling.
It has been pointed out that you only get +1 per cleric level (which means the Strength domain doesn't do much for you if you only have 4 cleric levels) but there is a second problem with the Strength domain that hasn't been pointed out: it's an enhancement bonus.

Since it is an enhancement bonus, you will need no fewer than 8 cleric levels to get any benefit from the Strength domain by caster level 7 (when Divine Power comes in to play). Divine Power grants a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, so you need at least a +8 from Feat of Strength (+7 if you have an odd Strength score) in order to get any benefit over DP. Even then, it's only once/day and only a +1 overall bonus.

Strength is okay at first level, since Enlarge Person is nice, but that later gets replaced by Righteous MIght. Bull's Strength is easily outperformed by Divine Power too, so even your second level domain spell becomes obsolete.

As a Sacred Fist of Zuoken, I would definitely pick War and Celerity for domains. Celerity is especially nice since it grants spells you can't otherwise cast as a cleric; namely Blur and Haste (though Haste is sort of moot when you can cast Righteous Wrath).

Back to the main topic: it's unfortunate that there is no house ruling stating that deities with Favored Weapon: Unarmed Strike also grant Improved Unarmed Strike via the War domain. You're stuck with plain-old unarmed strike, even though you do get Weapon Focus with it. It's only one feat to pick up Imp. Unarmed if you wish, and it certainly fits the flavor for Zuoken, but it's not something you will get for free.
Adolfo_Mondschein
02-16-07, 01:49 AM I like some of the suggestions... I'm kind of bummed that other clerics with the war domain essentially gain two feats(martial weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus) and I only get weapon focus. I suppose I could just take a couple levels in monk and go for sacred fist, sure I would ONLY be able to use an unarmed strike but at least I would have some spells to back them up. With my party of power players I'll probably end up healing most of the time anyways. Thanks for your help though.

heh, technically, the FAQ saying monks can use gauntlets came after the other, so it would have had to have been printed as the most "recent" ruling. Therefore, you would have to assume it was correct, going off their wording anyway... although I don't see any real problems with this... well I don't anyway... any thoughts?

My next question is, if you went by the FAQ that a gauntlet can be used by a monk as an unarmed attack, could I use one as a Sacred Fist without affecting my Code of Conduct? I'm thinking no because of the Code of Conduct warning and I'd say that would go against the "spirit of the rules". I do like the idea of a monk using gauntlets, it would certainly make it easier for them to enhance their strikes and such. You wouldn't even have to think of them as your typical big ol' hourglass gauntlets, they could be the equivilent of brass knuckles or such.

Also, I remembered once reading something official stating that if you have a feat and a class grants you that feat and they don't stack, you could change the first feat to something more appropriate. Could I then go ahead and take Improved Unarmed Strike now and if I took a level of monk later change it to Augmented Healing or something? That would be nice...
Lupo
02-16-07, 03:20 AM I like some of the suggestions... I'm kind of bummed that other clerics with the war domain essentially gain two feats(martial weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus) and I only get weapon focus. I suppose I could just take a couple levels in monk and go for sacred fist, sure I would ONLY be able to use an unarmed strike but at least I would have some spells to back them up. With my party of power players I'll probably end up healing most of the time anyways. Thanks for your help though.

heh, technically, the FAQ saying monks can use gauntlets came after the other, so it would have had to have been printed as the most "recent" ruling. Therefore, you would have to assume it was correct, going off their wording anyway... although I don't see any real problems with this... well I don't anyway... any thoughts?

My next question is, if you went by the FAQ that a gauntlet can be used by a monk as an unarmed attack, could I use one as a Sacred Fist without affecting my Code of Conduct? I'm thinking no because of the Code of Conduct warning and I'd say that would go against the "spirit of the rules". I do like the idea of a monk using gauntlets, it would certainly make it easier for them to enhance their strikes and such. You wouldn't even have to think of them as your typical big ol' hourglass gauntlets, they could be the equivilent of brass knuckles or such.

Also, I remembered once reading something official stating that if you have a feat and a class grants you that feat and they don't stack, you could change the first feat to something more appropriate. Could I then go ahead and take Improved Unarmed Strike now and if I took a level of monk later change it to Augmented Healing or something? That would be nice...

the problem is that the FAQ says both, first that monks CANNOT use gauntlets to attack with flurry and then in the next paragraph that they CAN use gauntlets to attack with flurry.

the second would be nice for getting some sets of magic +1 gauntlets of several specific materials and being able to further enchant them :)

anyway an sacred fist is dead out "NO WEAPONS" just is absolute, gauntlets are a specific weapon listet in the PHB so a no no for sacred fists :(

ciao

martin m.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-15-07, 12:17 AM	I have a cleric who worships Zuoken. He takes the War domain... what does he get? Did I miss something? Does he gain improved unarmed strike, Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, or is he just out of luck? I have to ask because Unarmed Strike is not a martial weapon... in fact it technically isn't exotic either...
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 12:30 AM	I have a cleric who worships Zuoken. He takes the War domain... what does he get? Did I miss something? Does he gain improved unarmed strike, Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, or is he just out of luck? I have to ask because Unarmed Strike is not a martial weapon... in fact it technically isn't exotic either... Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon. A Cleric of Zuoken with the War Domain would recieve weapon focus (Unarmed Strike). Clerics are already proficient with all simple weapons, so that's all they get.
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-15-07, 12:53 AM	Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon. A Cleric of Zuoken with the War Domain would recieve weapon focus (Unarmed Strike). Clerics are already proficient with all simple weapons, so that's all they get. If unarmed strike is actually a simple weapon, then why does it provoke an AOO when I use it? If i'm really proficient with it I wouldn't. So basically, I provoke an AOO with a weapon I'm "especially good with"? That makes no sense...
Lupo 02-15-07, 01:12 AM	If unarmed strike is actually a simple weapon, then why does it provoke an AOO when I use it? If i'm really proficient with it I wouldn't. So basically, I provoke an AOO with a weapon I'm "especially good with"? That makes no sense... your cleric seems to be out of luck, without the proper feat "improved unarmed attack" you only get a +1 to hit while unarmed, nothing more. you might get a DM to let you use this in conjunction with the double FAQ rulings on "spiked gauntlets" but as the FAQ is contradicting itself on this topic and the liberal interpretation would make it possible to use two different boni - "weapon focus [spiked gauntlet]" and "weapon focus [unarmed strike]" - with basically the same weapon, so expect table variations. ciao martin m.
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-15-07, 01:24 AM	sigh I wish it wasn't so complicated.... I mean I would only deal 1d3 + str... It's not like I'm a fighter pumping out 2d8+ 1 1/2 str or a monk flurrying with 1d6+str and 1d6+str...
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 01:25 AM	sigh I wish it wasn't so complicated.... I mean I would only deal 1d3 + str... It's not like I'm a fighter pumping out 2d8+ 1 1/2 str or a monk flurrying with 1d6+str and 1d6+str... The real question is why did you choose the war domain if you either didn't have monk levels or aren't planning on taking any?
ranagrande 02-15-07, 01:28 AM	sigh I wish it wasn't so complicated.... I mean I would only deal 1d3 + str... It's not like I'm a fighter pumping out 2d8+ 1 1/2 str or a monk flurrying with 1d6+str and 1d6+str... Yeah, unless you plan on being some kind of Cleric/Monk multiclass it is slightly suboptimal. I wouldn't worry much though. War is a good domain, even if you don't get anything from the granted power.
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-15-07, 01:41 AM	I was entertaining the thought of taking monk at a higher level. I just wanted to know if I could actually get some use out of the weapon focus... I guess if theirs no way around it I'll take a level of monk later... but for now I'm playing mostly a healer and backup melee role. Having weapon focus would have just made up for my low base attack bonus. At my level hitting is what's important. I'd much rather hit with a weak weapon than miss with strong one.
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-15-07, 01:45 AM	your cleric seems to be out of luck, without the proper feat "improved unarmed attack" you only get a +1 to hit while unarmed, nothing more. you might get a DM to let you use this in conjunction with the double FAQ rulings on "spiked gauntlets" but as the FAQ is contradicting itself on this topic and the liberal interpretation would make it possible to use two different boni - "weapon focus [spiked gauntlet]" and "weapon focus [unarmed strike]" - with basically the same weapon, so expect table variations. ciao martin m. Do you have a link? I'd appreciate it.
Lupo 02-15-07, 03:42 AM	Do you have a link? I'd appreciate it. it is on page 14 of the current FAQ: "A" Can a monk wear a gauntlet and still use her flurry of blows? Does she gain any other special abilities of the gauntlets with her unarmed strikes? Technically, a gauntlet isn’t an unarmed strike (it has a separate line on Table 7–5: Weapons in the Player’s Handbook), and thus can’t be used as part of a flurry of blows. A monk could wear gauntlets and still use flurry of blows, she just couldn’t attack with the gauntlets as part of the flurry (she’d be using her feet, elbows, knees, and so forth instead). If that’s too much hairsplitting for you, treat a gauntlet attack as effectively identical to an unarmed strike, except that it always deals lethal damage (even when worn by a monk). Many magic items called gauntlets aren’t necessarily using the same terminology. Gauntlets of ogre power, for example, aren’t always metal gloves. It’s conceivable that a monk might be wearing magic gauntlets that grant a special benefit on her unarmed strikes without those gauntlets also serving as weapons in their own right. In this case, the monk is making unarmed strike attacks, not gauntlet attacks. AND "B" Can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an unarmed strike? A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a flurry of blows. so A is saying a gauntlet CAN'T be used in a flurry AND is NOT an unarmed attack, while B is saying it is an unarmed attack AND CAN´be used in a flurry. as you are considered "armed" with a gauntlet and don't provoke AoO because you are "armed" you might be able to get the use of your weapon focus with it, but expect massive table variations and me as a DM wouldn't give you this. ciao martin m.
King Kashue 02-15-07, 04:00 AM	as you are considered "armed" with a gauntlet and don't provoke AoO because you are "armed" you might be able to get the use of your weapon focus with it, but expect massive table variations and me as a DM wouldn't give you this. You are not considered armed with normal gauntlets. PHB p. 117-118 "This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." Contrast with the spiked gauntlet description PHB p. 118 "An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack".
UMiskatonic 02-15-07, 10:17 AM	It's not complicated. You get +1 to hit with unarmed attacks. All other rules about unarmed attacks remain the same.
LachlarlanIII 02-15-07, 10:59 AM	You can't receive Martial Weapon Prof. (Unarmed Strike) because Unarmed Strike is a Simple Weapon. You would gain Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) though. You are still proficient with Unarmed Strike, though not as proficient as someone with Improved Unarmed Strike would be.
Archwolf 02-15-07, 01:14 PM	As far as I'm concerned, Zuocken was designed for Sacred Fists. Monk 2/cleric 4/Sacred Fist 9. BAB +13, 12 caster levels, flaming fists, and you take strength and either war or celerity domains.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 01:16 PM	As far as I'm concerned, Zuocken was designed for Sacred Fists. Monk 2/cleric 4/Sacred Fist 9. BAB +13, 12 caster levels, flaming fists, and you take strength and either war or celerity domains. Why strength domain? The domain power sucks for anything but full cleric. Now War AND Celerity makes a good combo.
Lupo 02-15-07, 01:49 PM	You are not considered armed with normal gauntlets. PHB p. 117-118 "This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." Contrast with the spiked gauntlet description PHB p. 118 "An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack". uhps, yes it is "spiked gauntlets" i am referring to, but the FAQ refers to them simply as "gauntlets" as well ;) ciao martin m. ps: anyway, i wouldn't build any character around it, as some day the wonderful company of WotC will clear this mess in their FAQ and you never know what THEY will make up as a new ruling.
King Kashue 02-15-07, 03:18 PM	uhps, yes it is "spiked gauntlets" i am referring to, but the FAQ refers to them simply as "gauntlets" as well ;) No it doesn't. :D The FAQ is referring to the weapon "gauntlet" in the passages you cited. If it was referring to spiked gauntlets, it would say "spiked gauntlets", as it does elsewhere in its text.
Archwolf 02-15-07, 03:29 PM	Why strength domain? The domain power sucks for anything but full cleric. Now War AND Celerity makes a good combo. Strength comes with feat of strength which, iirc, means once per day +1 strength per level, which means +13 strength by the end. , plus you get enlarge and bull's strength as domain spells, which is pretty great for punching or grappling. That said you make a fair point, any two of those three domains would do the job.
King Kashue 02-15-07, 04:12 PM	Strength comes with feat of strength which, iirc, means once per day +1 strength per level, which means +13 strength by the end. It's per cleric level (not caster level), you only get the bonus for your actual Cleric levels. The Sacred Fist levels boost your caster level and spellcasting, not your cleric level for purposes of the domain ability (that's what the phrase "He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained" means :D)
clik_ml 02-15-07, 05:12 PM	My grappling cleric is going to have the strength domain not for the crappy domain power, but for Enlarge Person. Now that polymorph is gone, grappler clerics are pretty bad-ass. Good 2nd domains are Competition (Llerg or Kord), War or Celerity (Zuoken). I would steer clear of Sacred Fist, since they are intended to not perform, especially if you ever want to contribute against oozes, incorporeals, or anything needing ranged weapons. You'll feel like a rogue, without the pile of d6's. The no-weapon restriction is too much. Any damage gained by having monk damage is lost by not having weapon enhancements. The +1 BAB is less important since you have Divine Power in your bag of tricks anyway. A grappling cleric will be on the look out for a monk's belt to get themselves some monk damage on their own anyway. Then you get to have plenty of table variation discussions on the interaction between monk damage and gauntlet use.
King Kashue 02-15-07, 06:18 PM	A grappling cleric will be on the look out for a monk's belt to get themselves some monk damage on their own anyway. Not if the grappling cleric is decent at Math :D With the monk's belt, the cleric, instead of doing 1d3 of damage (avg 2pts) does a 1d8 (avg. 4.5), a gain of an average of 2.5pts of damage. However, if that same cleric were wearing a Belt of giant strength (only a bit more in cost, and now Open access). The cleric gains 2 damage (only .5 less than with the monk's belt), but also gains +2 to hit, and +2 to their grapple check, which is WAY more valuable than any damage increase (especially one so miniscule as .5 of a point)...
ShinAkuma2 02-15-07, 07:50 PM	And if you upgrade to +6, then there's no contest, especially in LG where you don't get Wisdom to AC from the belt.
clik_ml 02-16-07, 12:49 AM	Divine Power grants +6 enhancement bonus to strength.
King Kashue 02-16-07, 12:54 AM	Divine Power grants +6 enhancement bonus to strength. And it lasts one round per level, and there are better Buffs to use (Righteous Might is way better) A character that self buffs really can't spend more than one round buffing before they need to get into things. Any more than that and they're not carrying their weight. Too often people don't take that into account for their builds. They have like three or four round/level buffs they're planning for, except they'll never get all those off.
Munkwunk 02-16-07, 12:56 AM	Strength comes with feat of strength which, iirc, means once per day +1 strength per level, which means +13 strength by the end. , plus you get enlarge and bull's strength as domain spells, which is pretty great for punching or grappling. It has been pointed out that you only get +1 per cleric level (which means the Strength domain doesn't do much for you if you only have 4 cleric levels) but there is a second problem with the Strength domain that hasn't been pointed out: it's an enhancement bonus. Since it is an enhancement bonus, you will need no fewer than 8 cleric levels to get any benefit from the Strength domain by caster level 7 (when Divine Power comes in to play). Divine Power grants a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, so you need at least a +8 from Feat of Strength (+7 if you have an odd Strength score) in order to get any benefit over DP. Even then, it's only once/day and only a +1 overall bonus. Strength is okay at first level, since Enlarge Person is nice, but that later gets replaced by Righteous MIght. Bull's Strength is easily outperformed by Divine Power too, so even your second level domain spell becomes obsolete. As a Sacred Fist of Zuoken, I would definitely pick War and Celerity for domains. Celerity is especially nice since it grants spells you can't otherwise cast as a cleric; namely Blur and Haste (though Haste is sort of moot when you can cast Righteous Wrath). Back to the main topic: it's unfortunate that there is no house ruling stating that deities with Favored Weapon: Unarmed Strike also grant Improved Unarmed Strike via the War domain. You're stuck with plain-old unarmed strike, even though you do get Weapon Focus with it. It's only one feat to pick up Imp. Unarmed if you wish, and it certainly fits the flavor for Zuoken, but it's not something you will get for free.
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-16-07, 01:49 AM	I like some of the suggestions... I'm kind of bummed that other clerics with the war domain essentially gain two feats(martial weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus) and I only get weapon focus. I suppose I could just take a couple levels in monk and go for sacred fist, sure I would ONLY be able to use an unarmed strike but at least I would have some spells to back them up. With my party of power players I'll probably end up healing most of the time anyways. Thanks for your help though. heh, technically, the FAQ saying monks can use gauntlets came after the other, so it would have had to have been printed as the most "recent" ruling. Therefore, you would have to assume it was correct, going off their wording anyway... although I don't see any real problems with this... well I don't anyway... any thoughts? My next question is, if you went by the FAQ that a gauntlet can be used by a monk as an unarmed attack, could I use one as a Sacred Fist without affecting my Code of Conduct? I'm thinking no because of the Code of Conduct warning and I'd say that would go against the "spirit of the rules". I do like the idea of a monk using gauntlets, it would certainly make it easier for them to enhance their strikes and such. You wouldn't even have to think of them as your typical big ol' hourglass gauntlets, they could be the equivilent of brass knuckles or such. Also, I remembered once reading something official stating that if you have a feat and a class grants you that feat and they don't stack, you could change the first feat to something more appropriate. Could I then go ahead and take Improved Unarmed Strike now and if I took a level of monk later change it to Augmented Healing or something? That would be nice...
Lupo 02-16-07, 03:20 AM	I like some of the suggestions... I'm kind of bummed that other clerics with the war domain essentially gain two feats(martial weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus) and I only get weapon focus. I suppose I could just take a couple levels in monk and go for sacred fist, sure I would ONLY be able to use an unarmed strike but at least I would have some spells to back them up. With my party of power players I'll probably end up healing most of the time anyways. Thanks for your help though. heh, technically, the FAQ saying monks can use gauntlets came after the other, so it would have had to have been printed as the most "recent" ruling. Therefore, you would have to assume it was correct, going off their wording anyway... although I don't see any real problems with this... well I don't anyway... any thoughts? My next question is, if you went by the FAQ that a gauntlet can be used by a monk as an unarmed attack, could I use one as a Sacred Fist without affecting my Code of Conduct? I'm thinking no because of the Code of Conduct warning and I'd say that would go against the "spirit of the rules". I do like the idea of a monk using gauntlets, it would certainly make it easier for them to enhance their strikes and such. You wouldn't even have to think of them as your typical big ol' hourglass gauntlets, they could be the equivilent of brass knuckles or such. Also, I remembered once reading something official stating that if you have a feat and a class grants you that feat and they don't stack, you could change the first feat to something more appropriate. Could I then go ahead and take Improved Unarmed Strike now and if I took a level of monk later change it to Augmented Healing or something? That would be nice... the problem is that the FAQ says both, first that monks CANNOT use gauntlets to attack with flurry and then in the next paragraph that they CAN use gauntlets to attack with flurry. the second would be nice for getting some sets of magic +1 gauntlets of several specific materials and being able to further enchant them :) anyway an sacred fist is dead out "NO WEAPONS" just is absolute, gauntlets are a specific weapon listet in the PHB so a no no for sacred fists :( ciao martin m.