Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tyrian. 11-07-04, 10:23 PM	POLYMORPH ANY OBJECT :confused: So...in Dragon 324 (Oct 2004), on page 65, in the article so entitled "Get More Bang For Your Bones," it says a few things on templates. Primarily, the act of using polymorph any object to add templates to a creature's corpse before animating it into a "half-fiend half-dragon ankheg zombie." Such templates do not add HD, so they are still well within the range of the necromancer's command. Cool. But... Adding templates to critters with polymorph any object...how far can you go? Template after template after template after template until your weasel skeleton can hit/kill/slaughternate a titan? Can you apply the evolved undead template (Libris Mortis)to an undead several times, for kicks and giggles? Can you *gasp* reach in the world of Epic and add the paragon template to a squirrel? While I doubt it all, I don't quite doubt it enough. With the important stuff over with, I would like to bring to light my plan, implemented by my CE female human bard6 "Mox Glory"-- Cha 18 + Magical Aptitude (General) + Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) (General) + 9 ranks of Use Magic Device = Use Magic Device + 18 13.000 gp = scroll (divine) (825 gp) Animate Dead (l3, cl5) Desecrate (l2, cl3) scroll (arcane) (9000 gp) 3 Polymorph Any Object (l8, cl15) scroll (divine) (2375 gp) Awaken (l5, cl9) random lizard (Int 1) + Awaken (Use Magic Device DC 15) = random lizard with 3d6 Int (average Int 10) smart lizard + boot = dead, but once smart, lizard dead, but once smart, lizard + Polymorph Any Object (Use Magic Device DC 18) = (same kingdom: animal + same class: reptile + equal or lesser Int) = 12-headed hydra corpse with permanent duration 12-headed hydra corpse + liberal use of Polymorph Any Object (still DC 18) = 12-headed hydra corpse with paragon half-dragon half-fiend templates Animate Dead (Use Magic Device DC 13) + 12-headed hydra corpse with paragon half-dragon half-fiend templates + Desecrate (Use Magic Device DC 12) = a really nice mount 800 gp left over = more stuff, like an exotic saddle and saddle-bags Indeed, the whole Awaken stage could easily be avoided by substituting a hapless kobold for the lizard (or any other reptile with Int 2 or greater). Please inform me of some aggregious error I have made.
ronyon 11-07-04, 11:17 PM	Hey, as necromancer(philosopher cleric of necromancy) I allso sought to abuse- I mean use the polymorp any object spell. After all, an undead familier p rmanantly polymorphed into a Dracolich could come in handy. But according to the Rules Of The Game Articals, one can never polymorph into something with a template. This sucks as more and more undead are templates. It also says you cant polymorph into incorporeal creatures, and the combination of these two features, plus the Hd restrictions makes for mighty slim pickings. If the artical says you can use templates, look out. Either it or the Sage is wrong, possibly both. :confused:
Iku Rex 11-08-04, 01:34 PM	But according to the Rules Of The Game Articals, one can never polymorph into something with a template. ...with the polymorph spell, that is. It works on any creature or object, and it can turn the subject into any other creature or object (but not an incorporeal or gaseous creature or object).-- Rules of the Game on polymorph any object (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a) Templates, epic creatures - knock yourself out. (If you go with just the PH, then no, you can't give something/someone a template with polymorph any object.)
ronyon 11-08-04, 10:53 PM	I misrembered the artical, and made a booboo. Yeah, Polymorph Any Object breaks the chain when it comes to this line of spells. I had thought that P.A.O. was broken down in terms of line item variations from the base line spell, much like he(The Sage) did with Baleful Polymorph. Instead he painted it in broad strokes, and it seems he may have expanded the power of the spell. So, given this outrageous ruling, apparently backed up by this Dragon artical, what is the limit? Oh yeah, thats the origenal posters question... Any help? I've already struck out, any other takers?
Seeker95 11-09-04, 10:03 AM	So, given this outrageous ruling, apparently backed up by this Dragon artical, what is the limit? Oh yeah, thats the origenal posters question... Any help? I've already struck out, any other takers?It's not an outrageous ruling. It's a freakin' eighth level spell, for Pelor's sake! By the time you can cast this (15th levle minimum), you should be able to do some pretty fancy things. A Fortitude save negates it. Assuming your DM sends appropriate encounters, Fort saves tend to be easy. If you are using it on yourself or an ally, have fun. But be careful.
jokotoko 11-09-04, 10:53 AM	It's not an outrageous ruling. It's a freakin' eighth level spell, for Pelor's sake! By the time you can cast this (15th levle minimum), you should be able to do some pretty fancy things. A Fortitude save negates it. Assuming your DM sends appropriate encounters, Fort saves tend to be easy. If you are using it on yourself or an ally, have fun. But be careful. The example of the original post was a 6th level bard. I think it is way overpowered!
Seeker95 11-09-04, 11:12 AM	Flaw: A template cannot be added to a corpse. It is added to a creatures. :D
El_Machinae 11-09-04, 11:38 AM	So then, what do you get when you kill a half-dragon? I'd think a half-dragon corpse.
ronyon 11-09-04, 01:21 PM	So then, what do you get when you kill a half-dragon? I'd think a half-dragon corpse. Good point, also wouldnt an undead X with whatever Templates still be an undead X, that is to say, an undead is still a creature, can have templates. You wouldnt even need to be very careful to avoid loosing permant status. From the SRD:Italics are mine Changed Subject Is: Increase to Duration Factor1 Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5 (half dragon,spellstiched, whatever, still undead,many people call them "minerals" ;) ) Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2 (well, maybe half dragon is out, but probably not, besides there is still somany others...) Same size +2 (this ones a gimmie,most templates dont boost HD or Size, do they?) Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2(Dog skeleton is to AssKicking dog skeleton? Maybe too much.) Same or lower Intelligence +2 (mineral warrior anyone?) 1 Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table. Duration Factor Duration Example 0 20 minutes Pebble to human 2 1 hour Marionette to human 4 3 hours Human to marionette 5 12 hours Lizard to manticore 6 2 days Sheep to wool coat 7 1 week Shrew to manticore 9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew (I think we can get this easily, even if smarter heads then mine cant finess the "Related" part) None of this really changes your point Seeker. It still is a high level spell, and it still isnt a would beater. For one thing that Bard is gonna be sad if he finds pet powered down by a Dispel. Now perhaps spellcasters of his CR shouldnt be able to pull that off, but let me tell you, after the first time my forces meet this monster, I am sending the survivors back loaded for bear. The bard spent a lot of dough on this thing(more than appropriate for caracter level?I dont know). I can do the same on a scroll of dispel, of undeath to death, maximized reach heal, or whatever, or even just arm a hundred commeners with holy water. Any of those might work. Lastly, dont make the mistake of runing into a real necromancer, who will galdly drop a second level command(control?)undead, or as many turn atempt as is nessisary to strip this pretty toy from your over reaching grasp. Agin appropriate CR opponents might not be able to do this. In our campains, we dont lean too heavy on CR, but regardless, any party who is commanding such a beast actually has a higher CR anyway. Many of the above challenges can be resolved with proper buffing, or relatively cheap equipment. In fact, if you P.A.O. an undead familier into this death on wheels thing, I dont think it can be commanded if it stays withen a certain distance of you(must check that).Constructs( and construct familiers) offer simular promise.Hell, I guess any familier would be a good choice.Remember the step below permanant is one week-not good enogh for a scroll, plenty good enogh if its on your castibles list. So, can anybody offer up their ultimate grocery list P.A.O.? Me I want to use a half every kind of outsider/elemental on a small dog skelton.Oh yeah, and spellstiched...and blahblah and blahblahblahblah.... ;)
Seeker95 11-09-04, 02:18 PM	I'm pretty sure this is a house rule only in that it clarifies an ambiguity: Beware... duration is based on original form, no matter how many times you change, the original form of the creature is what you use when calculating the "duration modifier".
ronyon 11-09-04, 02:46 PM	I was planing on make all the changes at once any way. The shift from dog skelton to mineral warrior/spellstiched dog skeleton is as easy per the spell as dog skeleton to other dog skeleton.No point in layering, you dont have to.The sum of all the changes, weather all at once or in increments doesnt actually matter, I never plan on make too many.Even if I add a new template by another application of P.A.O.,as long as it is withen X steps of normal, it doesnt matter. I dont have many books but there must be a large # of templates that do not alter kingdom, class or size. Warbeast comes to mind.The other thing is Class. In 3.5 the class of a corpes matters, cause you get the weapon proficiencies and some other things when you animate them. So changing an Ape skeleton into an Awakened Ape skeleton with 5 levels of fighter, could be worthwhile, even if it used up HD.