Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valoy_Muniz 04-13-07, 02:34 PM	Whay is it that Wotc seems to think the 0 level spells are stronger the first level ones? If you have any bounes from stat (almost have to if a caster) you can cast more 1st level spell in a day then you can 0 why? What we have been doing is adding your stat modifer directly to the 0's you can cast. This is giving about a extra 3-6 0 level spells but I have not had anyone saying that it is over powered. What do you all do about it?
CantripN 04-13-07, 02:50 PM	No harm in adding more cantrips, but many find that infinite cantrips at 5th level or so is far from overpowered... I do.
tarkin 04-13-07, 02:59 PM	1. What makes you think that allowing bonus 1st levels but not bonus 0 makes 0 more powerfull? That is not logical. 2. The reason WoTC did not make bonus 0 level spells has to do with the fact that certain classes (Paladin, Rangers, etc.) do not get 0 level spells, and with the formula they used to determine when you get bonus spells. It is esoteric and complicated, and it does not sound like you care about it. 3. It is not a lot of power to let people get 1 bonus cantrip for every 1 first level spell. This is what a Loose Gamer would do. 4. Inifinate Cantrips is overpowered at any level. The most obvious over-powered thing is the healing one, which most people will admit is far more powerfull than the current rules. A Power Gamer may deal with this by excluding the known issue, Loose Gamers just say no to the idea.
CantripN 04-13-07, 03:12 PM	4. Inifinate Cantrips is overpowered at any level. The most obvious over-powered thing is the healing one, which most people will admit is far more powerfull than the current rules. A Power Gamer may deal with this by excluding the known issue, Loose Gamers just say no to the idea. Bit of trivia: Cantrips are 0th level Arcane Spells. Orisons are 0th level Divine Spells. There is no known abuse for unlimited Cantrips. EDIT: Cute, NobodyRemembersThis...
NobodyRemembersThis 04-13-07, 03:23 PM	Bit of trivia: Cantrips are 0th level Aracne Spells. Orisons are 0th level Divine Spells. There is no known abuse for unlimited Cantrips.Are they all spider lovers? :P
Thiez 04-13-07, 05:50 PM	4. Inifinate Cantrips is overpowered at any level. The most obvious over-powered thing is the healing one, which most people will admit is far more powerfull than the current rules. A Power Gamer may deal with this by excluding the known issue, Loose Gamers just say no to the idea. Lol. Yes, obviously an item that'd have cure minor wounds at will would be epic/artifact. Or would it? Dun-dun-DUN!
IceFractal 04-14-07, 12:05 AM	Not quite artifact, but expensive - ~34,000 gp, based on the Ring of Rapid Healing (Epic).
runestar 04-14-07, 12:16 AM	Why even bother? If you typically stop using cantrips at lv3+, does it matter if you get one more or one less?:confused:
Vegepygmy 04-14-07, 01:21 AM	Do people actually stop using detect magic at level 3+? That hasn't been my experience, but maybe I'm in the minority. Frankly, it bugs the **** retentive part of me to see "0-level (4/day), 1st-level (6/day)" on my character sheet. No one should have fewer 0-level spells per day than they have 1st-level. It just doesn't look right.
jokey665 04-14-07, 01:40 AM	Quit whining and play a Psion. No x/day to worry about.
runestar 04-14-07, 02:10 AM	Do people actually stop using detect magic at level 3+? That hasn't been my experience, but maybe I'm in the minority. Mostly during downtime for me. Other people might have different experiences though.:P
penchant 04-14-07, 03:57 AM	People stop using detect magic as soon as they get access to arcane sight. Detect magic is only for down time and when it doesn't really matter. Of course, I've been on the infinite cantrips bandwagon for a while. BTW, a fast healing 1 item that is 34000gp is still much more useful than an unlimited spell completion 1hp item (or ability). For more details find my (or other's) posts on the subject. As to the premise of the OP, WotC tends to limit things that it views as more powerful. So the association that it limited 0 level spells more than 1st level spells is being made with that tendancy and is, in turn, logical satire.
navar100 04-14-07, 04:21 AM	My warlock uses Detect Magic all the time. :P
Perun 04-14-07, 04:56 AM	If you really wanted, you could add bonus 0-level spells equal to (bonus 1st-level spells)+1, starting at relevant ability score 10-11. This might be nice for low-magic campaigns. The thing that bugs me about 0-level spells is that they don't scale with levels (apart from duration, for some spells). A ray of frost always deals 1d3 cold damage, regardless of whether you're 1st or 20th level. Simple scaling, like 1d3/2 levels would be nice, and far from abusable. Another option would be to allow for spontaneous casting of 0-level spells from, say, 5th-level. That way, you'e still limted by the total number of 0-leve spells per day, but don't have to worry about not having read magic (for example) prepared. Someone mentioned 0-level spells at will and cure minor wounds issue. Simply change cure minor wounds to something like: Cure Minor Wounds Conjuration (Healing) Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1, Rgr 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 swift action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You immediately stabilise a dying creature. Additionally, the spell prevents any further hit point loss from a ongoing spell or effect (such as the decompoisiton spell (see page 61 of the Spell Compendium)). This version does not heal hp damage, but stabilises a dying creature (this is the most common use for cure minor wounds in campaigns I've played in), and is usable as a swift action. If I were introducing spontaneous unlimited 0-level casting IMC, I'd probably base it on Spellcraft checks. Something like DC 10, +2 for every additional 0-level spell cast (or attempted) in a day. Mind you, this was just me thinking out loud, and these are just ideas off the top of my head. None have been given serious consideration. Yet ;) Regards.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-14-07, 07:21 AM	SKR has also pointed out that it was partly to keep the table tidy. Plus, consider that the bonus spell progression would kick in at Ability 10 for a bonus cantrip... but that's the minimum ability you need to cast them. In essence, it was easier to just give everyone one more cantrip to start rather than mess around with bonus ones. And strictly speaking, you do get bonus ones - you can use those bonus higher level slots to prepare cantrips if you really want more of them.
Thiez 04-14-07, 07:23 AM	I don't think I've ever seen anybody use Cure Minor Wounds once the wands of CLW become available :P
SpoonyBard 04-14-07, 12:04 PM	I don't think I've ever seen anybody use Cure Minor Wounds once the wands of CLW become available :P I have. The healer in my party has so many feats and abilities that apply to healing spells she casts that her Cure Minor heals more than the wand of cure light usually does. I think she's getting a flat 8 HP a pop now...
BW0222 04-14-07, 12:22 PM	Folks, It does not bother me that at some point casters gain most 1st-level spells than 0-lvl spells. First, it makes sense that at some point folks give up studying what are (for the most case) nothing more than 'training' aids. i.e. why study more about cure minor wounds when you have mass cure light? Why worry about getting an acid splash in memory when you are studying ice storm. Second, higher levels spells are exponentially more powerful, to the point where more 0-level spells are almost completely useless. It takes nine cure minor wounds to equal the average casting of a cure light wounds spell, by the time your numbers of 1st-level spells might out pace your 0-levels -- your 0-level spells would rarely affect the life-and-death things which folks are facing on a daily basis. Third, they are not needed. One does not need to stablize 10 people that often. One does not need to detect magic more than a few times per day? Forth, if it was needed, magic typically allows simple ways around it. Scrolls or a wand of detect magic are so cheap that in the rare cases where you might need more than a few castings per day, you can easily have access to it. If you know you need to detect magic across a small forest, you would typically go for higher levels spells such as arcane sight, locate object, divinations, commune, find the path, etc. Continual flame is cheaper than light spells, a cloak of resistance is more practical than casting resistance every minute, etc. Fifth, if for some unusual reason you must use 0-level spells for some specific purpose, you can always fill higher level spots with them. If you need ten detect magics tomorrow... then just fill up your 1st and 2nd-level spell slots up also. In case of sorcerors and bards. Sixth, in the case of spontaneous casters, casters always have more 0-level spells available. A sorceror can always cast more acid splashes than fireballs -- since she could use all her 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-level slots to cast acid splash if she wished. Clerics can always cast more cure minors than cure lights. Seventh, folks rarely run completely out of spells at higher levels. From my experience, other than detect magic, I almost never use 0-level spells at all past maybe 5th. If there are two casters in the party, it is almost unknown to actually go through your 0-level spells. Thus, it isn't really an issue. IMO, 0-level spells are like training aids. Once you know the basics, you go on to pratical things. You stop wasting time on such things because they are of limited use. Saying that 0-level spells are stronger than 1st-level spells because casters may carry more 1st-level spells around with them, is like saying that nursery rhymes are stronger than Shakespeare because high school kids memorize more Shakespeare passages than nursery rhymes.
Shatteredtower 04-14-07, 12:57 PM	Prestidigitation is always of practical use. And any skilled practitioner of any art never stops working on fundamentals. To that end, I'm perfectly happy to grant any spellcaster a number of bonus cantrips (or orisons) equal to the modifier for the ability score they use to determine spellcasting, but not exceeding their casting level. Thus, a 1st level wizard with 18 Int can cast only one bonus cantrip, but four by the time he reaches 4th level.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-14-07, 01:24 PM	I think it would actually work better if casters could cast 3 cantrips+1/level each day (max of 23). That makes more sense to me. And give Wizards the following 9th level ability: Spontaneous Cantrips - at level 9, the Wizard has such control over the basics of his art that he no longer needs to prepare his 0th tier (cantrip) spells. He may select any cantrip he knows to cast without preperation, up to his normal spell limit. Clerics and Druids would get Spontaneous Orisons. How's it look as an idea?
Shatteredtower 04-14-07, 03:14 PM	Seems like a simple, viable alternative to me.
Perun 04-14-07, 04:13 PM	I think it would actually work better if casters could cast 3 cantrips+1/level each day (max of 23). That makes more sense to me. And give Wizards the following 9th level ability: Spontaneous Cantrips - at level 9, the Wizard has such control over the basics of his art that he no longer needs to prepare his 0th tier (cantrip) spells. He may select any cantrip he knows to cast without preperation, up to his normal spell limit. Clerics and Druids would get Spontaneous Orisons. How's it look as an idea? Nice! :) The similar mechanic was used by the 3.0 psionics for talents (0-level powers).
Etharion 04-15-07, 07:02 PM	You can think whatever you want of this.. but in my game (me DM) when a wizard reaches level 20. he can cast his 0. lvl. spells at will, as a spell like ability.. To explain this, i think that when a wizard goes epic, remembering cantrips is as easy as remembering a bunch of some basic dates for some historian.. And my players have never abused this.. either they dont need the 0.lvl. spells much, or they arent clever enough to think of a way how to abuse this! :D So there..comment if you want..