Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vorpal Warhammer 02-02-04, 11:13 AM	Both the Gnome and the Illusion domains from Forgotten Realms grant a cleric +1 caster level for illusion spells. So, a gnome cleric with these domains casts illusion spells as a 3rd level cleric (not that there are any 1st level cleric illusion spells, but that's beside the point). This seems to indicated that a gnome cleric with these domains can take Craft Wonderous Item at 1st level. The feat doesn't require "3 levels of a spellcasting class", it's just "caster level 3rd". If this is true, it means he can take Craft Arms & Armor at 3rd level, which leaves his higher level feats for bigger, better stuff. Thoughts?
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-02-04, 11:51 AM	That's pretty clever. But it wouldn't fly if a player brought it to me. The extra caster level only applies to Illusion spells. His base caster level is still too low for the feat. I don't think it would be broken to allow it, mind you, but it sets a bad precedent. Additionally, what if he wants to craft an item that uses a Transmutation spell as a prerequisite? Is his CL still 3rd? If not (and it isn't) then he can't make items until his CL in that school reaches third. If this is simply a tricky way to take a feat early so he can use his higher level feats for something else....no. Good try though. :D
Vorpal Warhammer 02-02-04, 12:46 PM	I understand where you're coming from, but consider the following scenario. A cleric3/wizard2 took Craft Wonderous Item as his 3rd level feat. Is he forbidden from creating a Hand of the Mage, since his wizard casting level is less than 3, or, does his cleric casting give him access to the feat, which can then be used however he sees fit?
Dheran 02-02-04, 01:03 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer Both the Gnome and the Illusion domains from Forgotten Realms grant a cleric +1 caster level for illusion spells. So, a gnome cleric with these domains casts illusion spells as a 3rd level cleric (not that there are any 1st level cleric illusion spells, but that's beside the point). This seems to indicated that a gnome cleric with these domains can take Craft Wonderous Item at 1st level. The feat doesn't require "3 levels of a spellcasting class", it's just "caster level 3rd". If there's an actual spell that this character can cast as "caster level 3rd", that's enough to satisfy the feat requirement. If there's only a theoretical spell that would do the trick -- sorry, no dice. If WotC leaves loopholes in the rules, it's legal to slip through them unless your DM throws a fit. Forgotten Realms is a deliberately magic-rich setting, so making it easier for a mage to function was a design goal, even if WotC didn't realize all the ramifications. I'd say the same thing if one of your "levels" was from an orange Ioun stone.
Seeker95 02-02-04, 01:07 PM	A rules lawyer might *try* to argue it that way (thereby warranting a quick slap upside the head with the softwest hardcover core rulebook within reach), but if a Feat or Prestige Class has a "caster level" requirement, it means being able to cast the spells that a caster of that level could cast. In this cast, it really does mean "third level caster".
Thelon Fairblade 02-02-04, 01:38 PM	See now, I would allow the example Gnome Cleric to take the feat. He could *only* create Illusion items, though, where his caster level qualifies for the basics of the feat. As his base caster level rises to 3, other options become available to him. However, I will admit this is bending the rules, and -- IMC at least -- would require a good story or explanation to alow it. The Cleric 3 / Wizard 2 can absolutely take the feat (Cleric 3 qualifies) and can make any items he can meet the prereqs for (hand of the mage requires CL2 and mage hand). This is clearly within the rules 100% as written with no grey area. You're a 5th level character making a cantrip item -- where's the problem? :-)
Seeker95 02-02-04, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade See now, I would allow the example Gnome Cleric to take the feat. If the Feat were Craft Wondrous Illusions perhaps. By allowing only "illusion wondrous items" you are following neither the feat rpe-req rules nor the crafting wondrous item rules. Once you qualify for a Feat, you can craft items at a lower caster level than your own. If you allow the 1st level cleric to qualify for the Craft Wondrous Items feat simply because he casts illusions at a caster level 3 (but cannot cast any 2nd level spells -- illusion or otherwise), then he can create any wondrous item for which the Caster Level is 1. I would not allow it.
Vorpal Warhammer 02-02-04, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 A rules lawyer might *try* to argue it that way (thereby warranting a quick slap upside the head with the softwest hardcover core rulebook within reach), but if a Feat or Prestige Class has a "caster level" requirement, it means being able to cast the spells that a caster of that level could cast. In this cast, it really does mean "third level caster". Keep in mind, I'm not actually trying to do this with my character. It's more of a hypothetical thing that occurred to me. A 3rd level sorceror can only cast 1st level spells, while a 3rd level wizard can cast 2nd level spells. The feat prereqs don't care about which spells you can cast, they only care about the caster level you have. The example cleric casts spells at 3rd level, regardless of his class level. Everyone has some good input. Thanks for not throwing out the M-word :)
Eagle Prince 02-02-04, 04:54 PM	I think it would be fair because each item has prerequisites you also must meet. If you meet the item's prerequisites also I'd say go for it.
Bopple 02-02-04, 06:29 PM	This is another good example that they should have distinguished 'base' caster level from caster level.