Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jamesks 07-23-07, 05:59 PM	I was wondering if a prestige class that grants a spells per day of "+1 level of existing class" can allow you to raise your spellcasting ability in another prestige class that grants it's own indepentant spell casting ability. The reason I ask is that one of my players is playing a Paladin 7/Divine Crusader 4/ Fist of Raziel 2, and wants to advance the Divine Crusader spellcasting ability instead of the Paladin. Is this a rules legal choice? It seems rather abusive of the ability, since one could take a single level of a class like Divine Crusader and then any other class that gives spell advancement of the proper type.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-23-07, 06:03 PM	Well, Divine Crusader doesn't actually grant spells. It just "stacks" with levels of paladin (or whichever divine spellcasting class you pick) to determine you spells per day for that class. If you had a prestige class that has its own spell progression, like assassin, or...holy liberator (I think that's the one), then you could choose that class to add the "+1" to. (Edit: I'm not actually familiar with divine crusaders, as I'm away from my books right now. I'm assuming they have a "+1 to existing class" feature rather than an actual spell progression)
Hsien 07-23-07, 06:30 PM	I'm not that familiar with the Divine Crusader either so I'll be more general. Basically, if the PrC has it's own spells...ie. it's own spell list and it's own spells per level progression chart, Assassin as Jagry pointed out, then yes you could add the +1 to that PrC. Example of what doesn't work... If however, the PrC does not provide it's own spell list/progression then no. This prevents things such as taking a level in Mystic Theurge to increase a divine caster level and an Ultimate Magus casting level, UM which in turn gives a bonus to spontaneous and an arcane caster level....for a net bonus of + 1 Divine +1 Arcane +1 Spontaneous ~ I say thee NAY!!!!
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-23-07, 06:37 PM	This prevents things such as taking a level in Mystic Theurge to increase a divine caster level and an Ultimate Magus casting level, UM which in turn gives a bonus to spontaneous and an arcane caster level....for a net bonus of + 1 Divine +1 Arcane +1 Spontaneous ~ I say thee NAY!!!! Yup. That's exactly why it doesn't work.
risner 07-24-07, 12:16 AM	Is this a rules legal choice? It seems rather abusive of the ability It is legal and not abusive. Spell casting classes (those that have spells per day) count for any effect that modifies them regardless if the spells per day came from a base class or PrC. So all spell caster advancing classes (which are not spell casting classes) can advance any class a level that grants spells per day. Therefore, since I know that DC grants spells, it is perfectly valid for any class that advances spellcasting. Yup. That's exactly why it doesn't work. You are confused.
groveborn 07-24-07, 04:23 AM	It is legal and not abusive. Spell casting classes (those that have spells per day) count for any effect that modifies them regardless if the spells per day came from a base class or PrC. So all spell caster advancing classes (which are not spell casting classes) can advance any class a level that grants spells per day. Therefore, since I know that DC grants spells, it is perfectly valid for any class that advances spellcasting. You are confused. Just keep in mind it only advances the caster level (and thus spell stuff) not the other stuff, like "+1 to existing spell level" or summon familiar, or whatnot.
Jackmojo 07-24-07, 01:00 PM	Just keep in mind it only advances the caster level (and thus spell stuff) not the other stuff, like "+1 to existing spell level" or summon familiar, or whatnot. The spellcasting entry for every PrC which advances casting by one level is supposed to have a line like this: If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day. So a Spellthief/Assassin/Eldritch Knight would have to choose to advance Spellthief or Assassin spell casting, with his Eldritch Knight Levels. Jack
risner 07-24-07, 03:09 PM	Just keep in mind it only advances the caster level (and thus spell stuff) not the other stuff, like "+1 to existing spell level" or summon familiar, or whatnot. What do you mean by "+1 to existing spell level"? Because the +1 spell casting PrC do all this: 1) +1 caster level 2) advance spell progression (5th level Wizard with +2 spell casting PrC advancements would have 4th level spells from his 7th level Wizard casting level.) 3) Any bonus spell casting features like Wizard 2 bonus spells and Sorcerer additional spells known.
Hsien 07-24-07, 03:44 PM	I think he is referring to what Jaygr and I agreed upon. That a PrC + 1 to existing level cannot be applied to another PrC that does not have it's own spells per day progression chart. There is a thread in the Prestige Class forum, regarding someone wanting to have a Mytic Thuerge's + 1 level apply to a Divine class and a +1 level of Ultimate Magus class, so they could then get the +1 level to arcane and + 1 level spontaneous. That would not be a valid/legal application of game mechanics, imo. If a class/PrC has it's own spells per day progression, then it would be legal.
risner 07-24-07, 07:41 PM	That a PrC + 1 to existing level cannot be applied to another PrC that does not have it's own spells per day progression chart. Yeah, that is entirely not possible. You are right, but I don't think that is what the OP was wanting to do (since he said Divine Crusader and a DC has a spells per day progression.)
Pentagram 07-25-07, 03:04 PM	3) Any bonus spell casting features like Wizard 2 bonus spells and Sorcerer additional spells known. We have never allowed characters to gain the wizard bonus spells when advancing in wizard caster levels (unless they actually take levels in wizard, of course), or rather, no one has actually thought that they would get those bonus spells (it has never been an issue). They could most certainly be thought as spells known, though, granted by the class and in that way no different from spells known by, say, a sorcerer. Interesting, I think I will take them henceforth...
Istaran 07-25-07, 04:53 PM	We have never allowed characters to gain the wizard bonus spells when advancing in wizard caster levels (unless they actually take levels in wizard, of course), or rather, no one has actually thought that they would get those bonus spells (it has never been an issue). They could most certainly be thought as spells known, though, granted by the class and in that way no different from spells known by, say, a sorcerer. Interesting, I think I will take them henceforth... How would that not be an issue? Are your campaigns so treasure heavy that the wizards think nothing of buying scrolls and/or hunting down and gaining access to spellbooks from which to copy spells into their spellbooks at the cost of hundreds of gp before their new-found spell levels become functional? Or do your wizards just not take prestige classes? (if not, is it perhaps because of the loss of their new spells?) Or do you not just have wizards where you play?