Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ketone 07-05-07, 10:14 PM	I have a simple question about spells with a casting time of "1 round" It says that when you cast them they come into effect at the beginning of your next turn. I was under the impression this meant that if you cast the spell after moving (using a standard action), this rule represents you finishing the spell for the next round. I want to know if it's possible to simply cast the spell in one round as a full round action. I really don't see why not. But if this is not the case, then what happens if you attempt to begin casting the spell as your standard action after moving (the way I described above). Thanks for any help.
Kouk 07-06-07, 02:38 AM	Casting time of one round means it takes a full round action to complete, and that you are casting even while it is not your "turn". You finally finish casting at the start of your next turn. The only way to speed it up is with abilities like Quicken Spell. You can begin casting a 'one round' spell as a Standard Action after you move, but then you must immediately use another Standard Action starting on your next turn in order to finish it. If you don't use the second Standard Action then you have abandoned casting the spell.
Ketone 07-06-07, 03:09 AM	*sigh* I guess that makes sense. Oh well.
Wrong 07-06-07, 06:14 AM	But there are different kind of full-round action, that's why they say "1 round" in the spells casting times. An exemple of different full round action, a spontaneous caster who casts a spell with metamagic makes it as a full-round action, but it's a full-round action that allows him to cast the spell on his turn as normal and allows a 5 ft. step. So it's more simple to say "1 round" for an action that ends at the start of your next turn.
Leilond 07-06-07, 06:54 AM	1 round is MORE than a full round action A full round actions start and end during your turn Casting a "1 round casting time spell" start at the beginnig of your turn (after a 5' foot step eventually) and end just before the beginning of your next turn Thus make you more easy to be interrupted, because every enemy, during his turn, can attack you, wound you and force a concentration check (DC 10 + spell level + damage) to make you lose your spell Instead, a sorcerer that cast a spell (magic missile for instance) with a metamagic feat applied (maximized for instance) need a full round action to cast (not 1 round casting time) that means the spell come into effect immediately at the end of his round and not at the beginning of his next one, that make him reall less interruptable
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 07:03 AM	You can begin casting a 'one round' spell as a Standard Action after you move, but then you must immediately use another Standard Action starting on your next turn in order to finish it. If you don't use the second Standard Action then you have abandoned casting the spell. I've never seen this interpretation before, though I "give you" that it makes a sort of logical "sense". Does anybody else concur with Kouk on this one? We have always played that a 1 round casting time is a "full attack round" option only, that cannot be mixed in any way with a standard action or move action aside from a 5' step. You must begin on your initiative turn (possibly after a 5'), and end just prior to your next turn. Neue
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 07:14 AM	Let me try to clarify with the pertinant SRD: FULL-ROUND ACTIONS A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. Cast a Spell A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell. You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you. This action is otherwise identical to the cast a spell action described under Standard Actions. (Bolding mine) Hope this clears it up. Neue
nepence 07-06-07, 07:16 AM	I *almost* agree with it. I can't remember where the rule was, probably in the player's handbook, but if you move and then start casting, the next turn you give up your move action, not your standard. Over the two turns, you still get a move action and a standard action on each. The full-round casting requires 1 move and 1 standard. Oh, and quicken spell does nothing to a full-round spell. Rapid spell knocks it down to a standard action. You can cast a quickened rapid spell as a swift action, assuming the original spell had casting time: 1 round.
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 07:29 AM	Let me make a comparison. Let's say we have an archer with +15/+10/+5, right? Now, he can do a move, say 30 ft, and then fire once at +15. Or, he can take a full attack, and sit still and fire three times. If you allow him to move, and then say, I'm starting my full attack now, I'll just fire some of the arrows in the first half of my next turn... See, it's all getting ridiculous, you're out of turn, people have moved, you don't know where anymore, it's a total clusterfluck... It's got to be taken for granted that the "1 round" casting time is exactly done as a "full round" action, or the whole system comes tumbling down. Neue
Merestil Haye 07-06-07, 08:49 AM	Yes you can start casting a spell in one round and finish it in the next. Look under the list of standard actions for Start Full-Round Action and Complete Full-Round Action. From the SRD :Start/Complete Full-Round Action The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.In order to split a full-round action over two rounds you need to take the Start Full-Round Action action for your last action in the first round and the Complete Full-Round Action action as your first action in the second round. Hope that helps.
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 09:34 AM	I am dumbfounded. Like none of us read english. We never read "that far" or something?... It's going to take me a minute to wrap my head around this. Picturing the squares where people have moved a half round later and all that... Give me a few. Wow. In my defense, I can't think of many "1 round" spells... I'll check back. Neue (Right there in black and white at the bottom, too. (Well, okay, blue and black)
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 09:46 AM	Now wait... If you start a full round action of loading a crossbow after firing, (no movement), and you use the standard action the next round to finish, you still have a loaded crossbow halfway and can still use a movement but not fire it? HUH???? What am I missing? Am I this dense? Neue
Wrong 07-06-07, 09:46 AM	Let me try to clarify with the pertinant SRD: FULL-ROUND ACTIONS A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. Cast a Spell A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell. You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you. This action is otherwise identical to the cast a spell action described under Standard Actions. (Bolding mine) Hope this clears it up. Neue I can quote another part of the SRD ;) SRD/Combat/Actions in combat: Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below). Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step. Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions, below, detail which actions allow this option.
Merestil Haye 07-06-07, 11:35 AM	Now wait... If you start a full round action of loading a crossbow after firing, (no movement), and you use the standard action the next round to finish, you still have a loaded crossbow halfway and can still use a movement but not fire it? HUH???? What am I missing?Nothing, as far as I can see. You've arranged it so that you have loaded your crossbow and moved, but you can't fire it because you are out of standard actions this round. I can think off the top of my head of nineteen spells with a casting time of 1 round in the SRD. I'm sure there are more. The advantage here is that you can move to a more favourable location for the casting of the spell (putting the subject in range with Enlarge Person, for example) without necessarily exposing yourself to more risk (since in either case the process of casting would extend into your turn).
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 11:44 AM	Yes Merestil, I understand the logistics, our druid had trouble getting off a call lightning once. I'm failing (miserably) to make this work in my head. I see the rules all clear as day, that we missed. When does the spell go off, if she moved her distance, and started casting a 1 round? It can't be her turn next round, she used half her round for movement, does it delay it? What am I missing? Halfway into past her initiative of that round??? I swear, I'm not this stupid as it sounds. Okay, she's still casting in the next round. New round for the other guy. New round for him. New attack of Opp? (I know it says different about a full round, but not a "start new round".) This is a mess. Full round: Right before her next init turn. Starting half into a round: Half past her next init turn? ?huh?
tarkin 07-06-07, 12:08 PM	You are talking about using the Standard Action "Start a full round action". In that case, then you move, then use a Standard Action to start a full round action "casting a spell". Then next round your turn comes around and you use ANOTHER standard actionto "Complete a full round action". So the spell completes being cast on your turn, instead of just before your turn. That leaves you another move action to do with as you like. Note, this is generally a poor trade. You are in effect taking a full round action and two move actions, when normallly you are allowed to do a full round action, one move action and a Standard action.
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 01:05 PM	You are talking about using the Standard Action "Start a full round action". In that case, then you move, then use a Standard Action to start a full round action "casting a spell". Then next round your turn comes around and you use ANOTHER standard actionto "Complete a full round action". So the spell completes being cast on your turn, instead of just before your turn. That leaves you another move action to do with as you like. Note, this is generally a poor trade. You are in effect taking a full round action and two move actions, when normallly you are allowed to do a full round action, one move action and a Standard action. I think that is the part that has been giving me trouble. And if I'm reading right, do I understand that people that have better initiative "this round" can't get AoO's on me? But I assume normal attacks if they are before mine? (And thanks as always, Tarkin)
tarkin 07-06-07, 01:51 PM	1. People can take AoO's regardless of there init. You take AoO's during OTHER people's turns, not your own. 2. People that went before you do not cause you to make a Concentration check with their normal attack, during this round. Any AoO's they take would require you to make a Concentration check. However next round when they attacked (which occures before your action) THEN you would have to make a Concentration check. People that after you get one this round, but not next round.
Ketone 07-06-07, 03:11 PM	I was just wondering because one of my favorite spells, antilife shell, is a casting time of 1-round. So if I'm to understand this, I can cast it taking a full round, but I still don't get the effect until after everyone moves and it's my turn again? On the other hand, I could move, and then start casting it, waiting for my turn again to take another standard action to finish it, then move again? Hmm. And the only way to speed this up is with rapid spell metamagic?
Kouk 07-06-07, 03:24 PM	You only provoke the one time, because you are just continuing the same action not starting another one. If at all possible you wouldn't want to split up the casting, because you have a slight loss in the number of Standard actions available, but either way you do it the enemies all have one turn in which to try and disrupt you while you stand there just casting. Sometimes you want to Move a bit before you start, to get in (or out) of range. I forgot that you can't Quicken a spell with a casting time longer than Standard so I can't really help with speeding it up.
Ketone 07-06-07, 03:34 PM	Can you take a 5-foot step before beginning a 1 round spell?
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 03:54 PM	Can you take a 5-foot step before beginning a 1 round spell? You could before, when you were declaring a full round action, of casting a one round spell. Now it seems, all bets are off, you can take a whole movement and then "start a full round action" that will go off on your turn (as opposed to right before your turn) next round. Before, you could not make a 5' and a move action in the same round with a movement move, and I assume that still applies while you are casting into the next round, but after that, "you act normally, I guess with a movement move. There is something lost on me here; "right before your next turn" and "on your next turn" seems to me that you are casting "faster" somehow. Yet it's right there in the rules. I don't understand yet what I'm missing despite repeated attempts by you good folk (even Tarken and waiting for MVincent) to enlighten me here. Neue
NeueRegel 07-06-07, 03:59 PM	Only one thing to do. I'm banning Call Lightning from my Campaign. Neue
BraulioB 07-06-07, 06:59 PM	This is the way I see it. Imagine initiative being 20 through 1 (counting down, of course). Let's say my initiative was 12. Round 1: a) Everyone before me (init 12) does their actions. b) At init 12, I begin casting my 1 round spell. c) everyone in range gets an AoO, I am still casting d) everyone with init 11 and down do their actions, I am still casting Round 2 a) Everyone before me (init 12) does their actions, I am still casting b) At init 13, my spell goes off c) I can do a 5' step (or can I do my usual actions???) Well, something like this, right? B
Amnarii 07-07-07, 08:16 AM	there are two scenarios to consider here, BaulioB... Scenario A: you are casting the spell as one full-round action. Let's use your init of 20 down to 1, and place you on 12. Round 1 20-13: enemies and allies go as normal 12: you can 5' step, and start casting the spell. You generate AoO's from any enemies who threaten you right now (unless you cast defensively). If they hit, you must make a concentrarion check to continue casting (AoO's technically take place before you actually start the casting). 11-01: enemies and allies go as normal Round 2 20-13: enemies and allies go as normal 12: Just before you act, but still on your initiative count, your spell goes off. You then get your full round of actions (1 standard+1 move, or 1 full-round) 11-01: enemies and allies go as normal Scenario B: you are casting the spell as 2 standard actions (still using 20-1, you on 12) Round 1 20-13: enemies and allies go as normal 12: you can 5' step and take a non-movement move-equivalent-action OR move your full speed as a move action, and THEN start casting the spell as a standard action. You generate AoO's from any enemies who threaten you right now (unless you cast defensively). If they hit, you must make a concentrarion check to continue casting (AoO's technically take place after you move and/or take the Move-Equivalent Action, but before you actually start the casting). 11-01: enemies and allies go as normal Round 2 20-13: enemies and allies go as normal 12: You use a standard action to complete the spell, and it then goes off (during your turn). After, you may take a move-equivalent action OR you may move your full speed as a move action. 11-01: enemies and allies go as normal Does that help? ((This is all as I understand it, I could be mis-interpreting something here...))
Kouk 07-07-07, 09:02 AM	It actually takes "longer" to break up the casting (it is actually 6 seconds either way, a point in your turn to the same point in your next turn is 6 seconds). If you start casting at the beginning of your turn, you are using up the equivalent of a Standard Action and a Move action (this is a full round action) then you wait until your next turn, and then the spell is done. If you break it up, you spend a Standard Action, then wait until your next turn, then use another Standard Action. Casting all at once: Standard + Move + Wait Breaking up the casting: Standard + Wait + Standard Either way, you have that Wait period where enemies can attempt to disrupt your casting, so you are not doing anything particularly great.
Merestil Haye 07-07-07, 09:14 AM	While I think you have got it sorted out, remember that if you take any damage during the casting of the spell, not just from AoOs, you are forced to make a Concentration check. Take the example of the character acting on 12. 20-13 Other combatants act. 12 You move to clear space and start casting a 1-round spell (let's use Call Lightning as the example).You don't need a Concentration check as you are not threatened. 11-8 Other combatants act. 7 Enemy wizard casts Magic Missile at you doing 14 damage. You pass the DC27 Concentration check. 6 - 5 More combatants. 4 The enemy Druid finishes casting his Summon Natures Ally spell and summons a Dire Lion. It charges you, Pouncing and delivering a full attack. Assuming you survive the damage inflicted, each injury requires a Concentration check DC 13+damage dealt. 3-1 More combatants. 20-13 More combatants. 12 You complete the full-round action, your spell takes effect and you may move. Watch out for the lion.
Nom 07-08-07, 11:08 PM	Only one thing to do. I'm banning Call Lightning from my Campaign.Call lightning split casting example. Turn 1: * move action: ? * standard action: being casting spell (provokes AoOs) Concentration must be maintained during other characters' turns. Turn 2: * standard action: finish casting spell, first lightning bolt triggers * move action: ? Turn 3: (next lightning bolt available) Notes: (1) You might also use a split full-round action when you are slowed or otherwise have only a single action available to you (eg surprise round). (2) Starting concentration (including spellcasting) provokes an AoO. Maintaining it does not. It's not that maintaining concentration is any less risky, but that if you are maintaining then opponents had adequate chance to strike you on their turns, before yours started.