Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oorlof 08-22-05, 05:13 AM	Was talking about (ab)using DM-power with my group when we came across the infamous Wish. The way we first thought it worked: caster makes a Wish, being painstakingly careful to exclude every possibility of being screwed over. Then, DM screws him anyway :D So here, let's state a Wish, then follow it up with a creative way to fulfill the Wish and make the caster's life a living hell at the same time! 1) *whilst touching body of the Tarrasque, which was just brought down to -10*: "I Wish the Tarrasque I'm now touching to die and remain dead for ever." Actually, DM decides, the Tarrasque can't die, although it can be kept incapacitated. A thousand hungry ghosts errupt from the ground and attack it, doing enough damage to prevent the beasts fast heal/regeneration from healing it. Sadly, they also attack the nearby PCs, who could conceivably heal the Tarrasque and thus prevent the Wish from being fulfilled. Everyone coming near the Tarrasque (say, within 1 mile) is immediately attacked by all kinds of nasties.
tarkin 08-22-05, 12:27 PM	Note, these are the nasty version of wish malfunctions, I usually do not use them unless a player is really being obstinate and trying to abuse the wish. 2: Standard answer to "I wish I had X ability". Permanelty change them into a creature that has X ability, losing levels so as to maintain their ECL. 3: I wish X was dead. X becomes a Lich. 4: I wish X was destroyed. A Mountain falls on him. How close are you to him? Whoops big mistake... 5: I wish X was in Y plane. Boom, he is. And so are you. 6: I wish I had a magic Item X. Boom it is in your hand. 6 seconds later. POOF, a wizard appears with a very angry face and demands it back.
Algorithm_X 08-22-05, 12:56 PM	7. "I wish I was rich." Character turns into a very delicious chocolate custard. the character is now rich. 8. "I wish women found me irrisistable" Character turns into a bag of really nice jewlery with an attraction spell on them. Now women will find him irrististable. 9. "I wish I was king". Character dies and is sealed in vault of a long dead king, all historical records change to referance the character rather than the old king. The character was king (at least historically he was, though it isn't accurate)
Darken 08-22-05, 01:05 PM	Please note that Wish is a powerful spell with a large cost, it's not suppose to be a cue for DM to say "w00t, juu suxors, I twist Wish and paws joo" then twist the Wish into some bizzare and completely unrelated result. Granted, this can happen with you get a Wish from an evil Djinn or similiar creatures, but most certainly not one from your own spellcasting or items. Wish fulfillment should be direct and simple, as per ELH. If something is too powerful for even Wish, then the Wish will either be partially fulfilled, or fail completely. There should not be some elaborated schemes to screw the players over for using it. Say, a random PC wishes for "I Wish to be the strongest person ever!" The DM should not create some wierd, stupid outcome that is totally ABOVE the power of a level 9 spell, like killing everyone else in the world, or give every other single living creature a permanent strength penalty so that the PC is the strongest relatively, or one of the PC's limb grow to super human size and crush him to death with the weight, or whatever blizzare things one can think of. NO. I repeat, NO. Instead, the DM should simply try to fulfill as much of the Wish as possible; the closest thing the Wish can offer is +1 to +5 inherent strength bonus, and assuming there is no Wishes cast prior to this one, the PC would simply gain a +1 inherent bonus to Wish, and be informed either OOC or IC via some channels, that this is the best Wish can offer him at this point.
Algorithm_X 08-22-05, 01:21 PM	It is true if the used as a non-cursed item or as a spell that as long as you stay within the power limits you shouldn't be at risk. However, not all sources of wishes are benign, woe to those who want wishes from a source who deliberately twists the words. A wish being granted by a being deliberately trying to screw you because it is cruel and evilly sadistic (Pit Fiends, Efreeti, ect...), is BAD, don't take the wish! Say, "Gee, thanks and all but I'll have to pass, unlimited power isn't my thing." This thread is about that kind of Wish. However I agree that the wish shouldn't perform effects above a 9th level spell. In the example listed by Darken granting a +1 to STR would not grant the wish, but he is right that killing everyone in the world IS over a 9th level spell, but there is a way within the power limits to grant the wish exactly as worded: 9. "I wish to be the strongest person ever" Character is Planeshifted to prime material plane with no inhabitants, (it is uninhabited possibly because it has no air) The character is now the strongest person to ever be on that world. (as long as he survives without air) It is my opinion if you ask for something beyond the normal scope of a wish then the exact wording should be used to find so way to grant it is a twisted and awful manner within its power level. Note most the time simply the repositioning of the PC is the simplest way to grant the wish in a horrible manner. If it is a spell caster actually casting wish, they KNOW the limits, if they want to push the limits greedily I have no sympathy for the character.
Darken 08-22-05, 02:31 PM	If it is a spell caster actually casting wish, they KNOW the limits, if they want to push the limits greedily I have no sympathy for the character.If my DM ever go down this route and pull this, sorry for the lack of better words, crap, I can similiar argue that "Well, my caster is casting the spell, not me. I don't know how to word it, I am just a Int 11 Humanl; Hell, I don't even speak Common, I only speak English. My caster is a Int 41 Wis 38 Epic Wizard, I'll let him figure out the wording to do what I want him to do." And, I will do this for all life decisions, puzzles, and mysteries. If the DM forces me to come up with my own decisions and solutions, I will accuse him that by denying me the knowledge of my character and force me, who has no real knowledge in the fantacy word, to come up with the answer, he is making me do the reverse of metagaming. Seriously, if something is beyond the power of even the most powerful level 9 spell, it is well within the DM's power to say "Nope, you fail." It's another thing that I am arguing against, which is twisting Wish for some elaborated scheme for no apparent reason than to screw the players. If I play in a game where Wishes are constantly messed up like this even if you cast it yourself or use it from a (non-cursed) ring or similiar items, I'll start to Wish for others. Maybe next time I encounter the BBEG, I'll rob my ring and say "I wish THAT GUY is the most powerful person in existence, and gains lots of experience, and have all the magic items in the world."
Keenath 08-22-05, 02:52 PM	I tend to look at it this way. If you wish for something that's outside the limits of the spell, it should give you the closest it can do. For example, if you wish for a powerful item, that is outside the wish's power. But it IS a stated power to teleport you without error anywhere in the planes. So it pops you directly to the place where the requested item is, and it's up to you to actually GET it. Fine. Not a problem. It's partial fulfilment, possibly upsetting to the character, but the wish didn't intentionally screw him -- it just did what it could. If you wish to be the strongest in the world, I'd do either partial fulfilment (+1 to STR) or something more unique -- "You now have the granted power of the Strength domain. Once per day, you can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. You gain an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to your character level. Activating the power is a free action, and the effect lasts 1 round." That sort of thing is often more fun than just screwing the players -- he didn't get EXACTLY what he wanted, but it's close, and it gives him a fun, unique ability.
Raven Dark 08-22-05, 04:05 PM	___#10___ Player: I wish to be a god! DM: You become the target of a Microcosm effect and are drawn into a fantasy world where you have unlimited power, just as you wished. Your body in the real world falls prone, helpless and drooling. :D MICROCOSM, the ultimate answer to ANY obscene Wish spell. :D Microcosm Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 9 Display: Material Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target or Area: One creature; or one or more creatures within a 15-ft.-radius sphere Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 17 This power enables you to warp the consciousness and senses of one or more creatures, sending the victim into a catatonic state. When microcosm is manifested, you can target either a single creature within range or a group of creatures all located within the power’s area. Single Target: If microcosm targets a single creature, that creature’s senses are pinched off from the real world if it currently has 100 or fewer hit points. The subject’s senses are all completely fabricated from within its own mind, though it may not realize this. In reality, the subject sprawls limply, drooling and mewling, and eventually dies of thirst and starvation without care. The subject lives within its own made-up world until the time of its actual death. Area Effect: If microcosm is manifested on an area, it sends all affected creatures into a shared catatonia (the world is a construct, but within the world, the victims can interact with each other). It affects only creatures that currently have 30 or fewer hit points, and only up to a total of 300 hit points of such creatures. The power affects creatures with the lowest hit point totals first. (Creatures with negative hit points count as having 0 hit points.) Manifesting microcosm a second time on an affected creature turns its sensory pathways outward once more. Otherwise, only very potent powers (such as psychic chirurgery or reality revision) or similar effects (such as miracle or wish) can undo the mental crosswiring that this power brings about. Augment: For every additional power point you spend, the number of individual and group hit points the power can affect increases by 10.
Ulairecantea 09-13-06, 04:57 PM	My personal favorite: Player: I wish X couldn't kill me. Player instantly falls dead. Well, X can't kill him if he's already dead, right?
Magetastic 09-19-06, 03:50 PM	i wish i was stronger than anyone i know. Forgets everyone stronger than him.;)
Thiez 09-19-06, 04:10 PM	"Player: I wish to be a god! DM: You become the target of a Microcosm effect and are drawn into a fantasy world where you have unlimited power, just as you wished. Your body in the real world falls prone, helpless and drooling." Eerh, the player said he wanted to be a god, not think he is one. One can argue that in his fantasy world, he IS god, but then you gave him something he didn't ask for (a fantasy world), and that isn't what wish does (it gives what you want, or partial, or nothing. it shouldn't think of things for itself and grant those things). TS: I don't think creating a thousand ghosts is within the power of a 9th level spell.
Andorxor 09-20-06, 01:48 AM	TS: I don't think creating a thousand ghosts is within the power of a 9th level spell. But attracting them is: Symphaty
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-20-06, 02:08 AM	Microcosm is a rip-off of Red Dwarf's "better than life" computer game - yes?
Arkan_Shadesfire 09-20-06, 08:48 AM	Or the conclusion to the Moriarty story arc in Star Trek: TNG, or any of a billion other cheap storytelling cop-outs throughout history. Honestly the "it's just a dream/hallucination/computer simulation/ilusion/ect" is the most overused trick in the book. :D As for the whole wish thing, as the SRD says: You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) The way I see it is that a Wish is the proverbial "dark and powerful magic never meant for mortals hands, that carries with it terrible risks and consequences for the one who dares to wield it's power" The wizard is only going to use it as a last resort, due to the risks involved, and they'll half expect the world to blow up when they do. In fact, there's alot to be said for ruling that a wish is actually a direct pipeline the the uber-diety of the campaign (the DM) and thus actually does have way more power than a 9th level spell should. Look at it this way: It's like putting the power of a god in a player character's hands. Up to 9th level spell effects, you can reasonably assume a wizard know how to handle such power, if he's careful enough with it--but being careless or trying for anything beyond that produces unstable and dangerous results, because a mortal being simply isn't capable of properly controling the power involved. Otherwise wishes become pretty boring. After all, if it's just a 9th level spell that can do anything that isn't too powerful for a 9th level spell, then why not make a version of wish at each level and do away with spell research and acquisition all together? DM: Okay Jim, as a first level wizard, you get to pick 3 first level spells... Jim: Nah, I only need one--Severely Limited Wish. Anyway, back on topic: "I wish for the power to kill a god." Character swells up and explodes with arcane power, totally destroying themselves and leaving a Sphere of Annhiallation in their place. Too bad they weren't grappling a god when they made the wish, or it might have worked. Another fun way to deal with wishes is to give the character exactly what they asked for. "I wish X was dead." History changes so that that being is dead, and now there's somebody else doing the same thing. For exaple: "Fred" the BBEG (or god, or whatever) is about to kill you. You wish Fred was dead. History changes so that Fred is dead, but now Bob the BBEG (or diety or whatever) is about to kill you instead, and you just used up your turn to cast that spell. :devil: Other fun examples: "I wish I was a god." Your character becomes one of the pre-existing gods of the campaign, or better yet, becomes a new god nobody worships or even knows about. Congratulations, you're a god--now roll up a new character.
Thiez 09-20-06, 08:58 AM	Rewriting history is hardly within the power of a 9th level spell. Even epic spells allow extremely limited messing with the time stream. Why would you retire your character if he is a god?
RobbyPants 09-20-06, 10:42 AM	11. "Genie! Make me a ham sandwich!" :nonono: Sorry. I couldn't reseist.
Arkan_Shadesfire 09-20-06, 11:07 AM	Rewriting history is hardly within the power of a 9th level spell. Even epic spells allow extremely limited messing with the time stream. Why would you retire your character if he is a god? As I said, I'd rule that wish isn't actually limited to the power of a 9th level spell--it's just can't be controlled at that level. So a wish for somehthing beyond a 9th level spells power (like godhood) results in a twisted backfire as powerful as the effect you were reaching for. As for why you would retire the character: A) Unless you're the only player, you'd mess up the party's challenge level somehting fierce. B) There isn't a whole lot of material on "Dieties as Player Characters" in D&D. C) Dieties tend to have a lot of job-related responsibilities, and really aren't suited for adventuring. This would particularly be the case if you went with the first option and made the character actually become one of the existing dieties. As for how that could happen, picture the end of Akira: Where Tetsuo gets sucked into the black hole caused by all that psychic power being in one place, absorbs it all, and then bursts out the other end of the black hole at the begining of time--discovering that he is (and actually always was) god. I really don't think a D&D campaign is prepared for "Pelor as a Player Character", even at epic levels.
Thiez 09-20-06, 11:09 AM	The genie tricks you and turns himself into a ham sandwich instead! Haha! Evil DM screws you! :P
Adrez Nesnsid 11-11-06, 10:36 PM	The genie tricks you and turns himself into a ham sandwich instead! Haha! Evil DM screws you! :P What?
Voldar_Mecorthio 11-11-06, 11:56 PM	One DM I played with would screw up every single wish, no matter what. I asked for a simple +1 to my INT and I got it... and all other stats dropped to 3. I wished for the replication of Greater Teleport to get me and the party out of a certain death situation... and we teleported into an underground lake of lava (I specifically said the town nearby). I wished for the rogue's dagger to gain the Shadowstrike ability... and the blade disintigrated. No matter what, every single wish I made was screwed up in a non-secutar way. When I DM, wishes usually have some odd effect, but it's never harmful. A player once wished for regeneration like a troll so I gave him green skin to go with it.
Lokiyn 11-12-06, 12:51 AM	As for how that could happen, picture the end of Akira: Where Tetsuo gets sucked into the black hole caused by all that psychic power being in one place, absorbs it all, and then bursts out the other end of the black hole at the begining of time--discovering that he is (and actually always was) god. I really don't think a D&D campaign is prepared for "Pelor as a Player Character", even at epic levels. uhh, just to point out that isn't what happened to tetsuo, its a whole lot more complicated. Anyway. Its always a dick move by power tripping dm's to pervert wishes most of the time. These are the kinds of dm's that suck you into spelljammers with lasers, or attack you with the lady of pain or asmodeus. Lets look at it this way, If the caster is casting the wish then the caster is manipulating the power so that its twisted but favorable (it is phenomenal power through the casters will). If its from a neutral item, then it's a litteral translation of the wish but usually non lethal just highly annoying. If its another being thats angry, then you need to give a litteral but evil interpretation. This is where you can be malicious. but again ONLY if they go outside the bounds or if there isn't an in bound way to answer the litteral request.
Rohano 11-12-06, 01:23 AM	We were rich, we owned our own town and we were the dominant mine in all Faerun. Our metals caused a civil war somehow (our DM was a pothead we later discovered) and so we set out and we came to a castle under attack by giants. A djinn appears. It pulls me into a bubble of force and says I have to make 3 wishes and if I don't then I'm going to sit in the bubble and rot for eternity. I knew immediately that the DM wanted to kill us all and this was his way of doing so. Outside the bubble, the townsfolk told the party that the castle used to be huge and strong. Mistake #1: I wish for some item, I got a cheap replica. Mistake #2: I wish for the castle to be the way it used to be. The DM takes his books and a can of coke and sits by himself for a while as he tries to decide what to do (he told us straight out he was trying to screw me over). We're transported like a millenia into the past. The castle is huge and powerful but giants attack and wipe everything out. The group is ANGRY at me. I was frustrated as hell at this point and just as the party was about to take out a bunch of the giants I sat up and said, Mistake #3: I wish to have never made that second wish. We're back in our own time and the djinn vanishes but I don't get a refund. Oh well. Since then I've learned to be very very very precise with wishes. Now I DM a lot more than I play so when wishes and miracles come into play I always take them literally. However - if a player wishes for his god to come aid him in a big war with an army of divine minions, it doesn't actually force the god and an army to come. It just sort of signals the god "hey, this guy's expending like his entire life's savings to call you for help." And the god sends an avatar and a small army to help his level 20 priest (it was an epic campaign anyway). In the same war some demons came out of some gates and one of the leading demons had a big fiery staff which he was using to blast angels and so on. Our powergamer wished for the staff. He got it but what he didn't know was that the staff curses anyone who picks it up who isn't a demon (which I had statted on the staff beforehand, I didn't just make it up). That campaign was real messed up but it was real fun. :P But the players learned their lesson. If any of them started saying ANYTHING about casting a wish, all of them would threaten his life. "If you wish us all into the Abyss, I'm going to eat your brain and Fido here is going to gnaw your limbs off before I do." Whenever they agreed to use a wish or miracle, it became a group project. All of them would pour over a piece of paper but they'd always forget one detail (they'd leave some bad grammar or something) and I'd laughingly tell them they wished for rabbits to slaughter a nearby village instead of nightmare mounts intended to help them clear out a nearby dungeon.