Post/Author/DateTime	Post
D&D_Madness 5000 06-06-05, 12:17 PM	I thought people everywhere should share their idea of pathetic and useless spells in D&D Let the posting begin!
tarkin 06-06-05, 12:36 PM	Foresight. Worst. 9th Level Spell. Ever.
mbfu3k 06-06-05, 01:23 PM	Soul Bind. Why use this spell when you can use Trap the Soul as an 8th level spell with *no save* and the same component cost??? Wait, shouldn't Necromancy be better at trapping souls than Conjuration, not worse? :confused: Disguise Self With a duration of no greater than 3 hours even at 20th level, this spell is too short to be useful. While I suppose it could get you through a (single) guarded checkpoint or something, you stand a good chance of it running out in the middle of using it, making it useless for anything significant.
Thanatos02 06-06-05, 01:42 PM	I've used Disguise Self to great effect. Keep an eye on that timer, though, quite right. Daze Monster is pretty lame.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 06-06-05, 01:47 PM	Most cantrips/orisons but mainly Flare and inflict minor wounds. Shout is hardly amazing Lulaby is not exactly a-list either Augury and sleep, get pathetic about 1 level after you can get them.
Santrilla 06-06-05, 02:26 PM	Virtue. Seriously, what the mindflayer? One temporary hit point, woop de doo.
Lord shadow35 06-06-05, 03:35 PM	Blight Create undead Phantasmal killer Nightmare enthrall Horrid wilting Mind fog Meteor swarm Summon monsters mordinkeinens sword Legend lore Elemental swarm
funkypanda 06-06-05, 03:50 PM	sure im pretty new to the game but my friend who plays a wizard really wants the spell. i no you can get much better spells in epic but around 30d6ish(dont have ma phb on me) is kl, or atleast he finks so dnt burst his bubble by sayin its a bad spell
Santrilla 06-06-05, 04:01 PM	Actually, IME meteor storm can be really nasty...
RaspK FOG 06-06-05, 07:02 PM	What I cannot help but point out is that you included some of the most important (flavour- or powerwise) spells that exist in the game... :evillaugh
NeueRegel 06-06-05, 07:04 PM	I can't believe nobody's mentioned Arcane Mark yet. One of a handful of the "universal" school magics, and the single use in the entire game it has is for Secret Chest. When I first began learning 3.5 in earnest, I noted that right away, but still in the process of absorbing a few thousand new rules and nuances of the game, I dismissed it. Once. Twice. Ten times. Still, I kept thinking, "hmmm. haven't found it yet..." Never did. I kept thinking there was some big build up. Certainly, the game designers had some grand plan for this little spell. It's in the school with Wish, for pete's sake. It must be for using scrolls, or staffs, or uber-summonings, or something... Nope. Somebody add Arcane Mark to the "1001 Silly Feats" thread. Normal: Without this feat, an arcane caster may only sign his name. Oh... Um... Neue
Darkness is good 06-06-05, 07:11 PM	That spell that blocks scrying, what player char would prepare that spell? let me paint a picture a group a pc's is walking down a country road (not west virginia) the wizard stops,and says "hey guys, you think someones watching us? I better cast this spell, but we can't move from this area." The spell was made to stop players from throwing a monkey wrench into the dms plans, wich isn't needed, because the dm could just say "your spell fails" if they tried to scry on the ememy or whatever Thats my opinion anyway
sparkster4242 06-06-05, 07:25 PM	tarkin, im surprised at you! Foresight is everything a 9th-level spell should be, and more. Foresight compels the DM to warn you about bad stuff thats about to happen, and give you good advice on how to avoid it, _and_ give you enough time to use that advice! its duration is pretty nice, too. dont let the trivial bonuses distract you from the true power of the spell.
Mellowship Slinky 06-06-05, 07:28 PM	A group of PC's are rebels in their own land, forced into hiding for supporting the true king who has been deposed by his wizard brother. You'd better hope that you can prevent him from scrying on the king and assasinating him.
yonman 06-06-05, 07:33 PM	Lord Shadow could you explain to me why you think these spells suck (in bold): Blight Create undead Phantasmal killer Nightmare enthrall Horrid wilting Mind fog Meteor swarm Summon monsters mordinkeinens sword Legend lore Elemental swarm
Darkness is good 06-06-05, 07:36 PM	A group of PC's are rebels in their own land, forced into hiding for supporting the true king who has been deposed by his wizard brother. You'd better hope that you can prevent him from scrying on the king and assasinating him. .....touche
Decree Of Boredom 06-06-05, 08:47 PM	Two words: Hold Portal
Azar the Prince 06-06-05, 08:54 PM	I second Virtue
smrtgmp 06-06-05, 09:19 PM	Yeah, virtue is pretty bad. 1 temp hp? Oooh, I'm so excited. There arent many spells I concider useless, but that is certainly one of them.
Talchar 06-06-05, 09:49 PM	Find Traps.... through the 3.0 version of find traps stands out as one of the all time most useless spells, the 3.5 version is just lame. (That said, I have to admit that I have never heard of or seen any cleric actually cast this spell so I could be wrong.) M Swarm is lame because a second level spell resist elements neuters it. Maximized M-swam= (36 fire + 12 physical) x4 = 192 pts Spell resistance M-Swarm = (6 fire +12 physical) x4 = 72 pts.
Nanashi 06-06-05, 10:25 PM	Yeah, virtue is pretty bad. 1 temp hp? Oooh, I'm so excited. There arent many spells I concider useless, but that is certainly one of them. Nanashi is not so sure. It is worthless by the time you are 3rd level but at 1st level even 1 more hit point helps a wizard. It is like a Cure Minor Wounds you put on before there is an injury. It is not a good paladin spell though. Nanashi can think of one other use for the spell but it is not a very good one. You can cast this on a dying enemy to revive them for a minute. Since it is not a Cure, this only works if you bring them up to -1 hit points some other way. By doing this, you have a disabled enemy that will start dying within one minute or sooner if you cast Dispel Magic. There are easier ways to interrogate or torture someone than this but maybe it is not entirely useless.
smrtgmp 06-06-05, 10:29 PM	Nanashi is not so sure. It is worthless by the time you are 3rd level but at 1st level even 1 more hit point helps a wizard. I suppose it could be of some use to a 1st level wizard. Too bad they cant cast it.
Nanashi 06-06-05, 10:37 PM	Isn't that like saying Bull's Strength is a useless wizard spell and no good to a fighter?
Keenath 06-06-05, 10:45 PM	I'm surpised at the number of people who complain that 0-level spells are useless. Um, duh -- they're 0th level. You can do 1-3 damage, get a single HP (healed or temporary), get a very small bonus on your next save, or do a few other nifty but not very useful things. Regarding Arcane Mark: Actually, this is a nice power, just not useful a lot in adventures. You can make a mark that's impossible to forge, to prove a message is from YOU, for example... but the real use is the invisible mark. Only people detecting magic can see the mark (and many DMs will let you inscribe a mark with conditions that make it detectable, like moonlight or being wet). You can put it on a person, and nobody will notice that they've been marked unless they happen to be detecting magic. It's great for tracking people or objects when they're in a large group of similar people or objects, or just for marking things. Arcane Mark doesn't have many rules-benefits, but it does have some fun uses.
D&D_Madness 5000 06-06-05, 10:49 PM	All lvl 1 spells seem pretty pathetic to me, lvl 2+ is a different story...
Keenath 06-06-05, 11:00 PM	Let's see... Yes, Find Traps is pretty useless as it is, considering that Search is based on INT and isn't class for Clerics -- both of which mean you won't have a very good search check even with the spell. It should give a bonus equal to your caster level, at least. But it's still pretty useless. Meteor Swarm is definitely hindered by Resist Elements, but still an amazingly powerful spell. No, it's not good against fire-resistant critters. Normally you shouldn't use fire on fire creatures anyway -- and if a powerful wizard is too stupid to hit you with a dispel before he drops his biggest spell, he deserves to have a failed attack. I find that Daze Monster is the weakest spell I've seen. It's the same level and school as Tasha's Hideous Daughter... I mean Laughter... but only lasts one turn. THL has a save bonus for creatures of other types and won't work on animals, but Daze Monster has a strict HD limit -- they should have the same duration, if they were balanced. I've never liked spells that made me just trade my turn for his turn (MAYBE!), anyway. (That is, I have to spend my turn casting to make him immobile for that same turn, but he gets to save against the attempt!)
smrtgmp 06-06-05, 11:07 PM	Isn't that like saying Bull's Strength is a useless wizard spell and no good to a fighter?No, because Bull's Strength can be cast by nearly every caster in the game (including the partial casters like paladins and rangers). Furthermore, its actually a good spell. I can see a wizard preparing bulls strength. I cant see anyone preparing virtue. YMMV, or course. I'm surpised at the number of people who complain that 0-level spells are useless. Um, duh -- they're 0th level. Yes, but some 0 level spells, namely prestidigitation, are exceedingly useful. They may not be powerful, but I'll bet some cantrips are cast in every gaming session (detect magic comes to mind). All lvl 1 spells seem pretty pathetic to meOuch. Thats a bit hash. There are some excellent first level spells out there. Just to name a few off the wizard spell list: Endure Elements (never have to worry about environmental hazards) Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (stops the dominated fighter from turning you to goo) Grease (best. spell. ever.) Mage Armor (useful for quite some time) Obscuring Mist (got concealment?) Identify (how else will a low level party know what treasure they found?) Charm Person (so many uses its amazing) Floating Disk (every veteran gamer has some good floating disk memories) Magic Missile (works great with metamagic for a sorcerer) Color Spray (a 1st level spell that stuns? yes please!) Silent Image (amazingly versitile) Ray of Enfeeblement (used this just the other day to take the fight out of frost giant. they arent so scary with a 17 str) Enlarge/Reduce Person (enlarge gives you 10' reach, for gods sake!) Expeditios Retreat (every wizard should have a scroll or two of this at lower levels).
RaspK FOG 06-07-05, 04:14 AM	I can't believe nobody's mentioned Arcane Mark yet. One of a handful of the "universal" school magics, and the single use in the entire game it has is for Secret Chest. When I first began learning 3.5 in earnest, I noted that right away, but still in the process of absorbing a few thousand new rules and nuances of the game, I dismissed it. Once. Twice. Ten times. Still, I kept thinking, "hmmm. haven't found it yet..." Never did. I kept thinking there was some big build up. Certainly, the game designers had some grand plan for this little spell. It's in the school with Wish, for pete's sake. It must be for using scrolls, or staffs, or uber-summonings, or something... Nope. Somebody add Arcane Mark to the "1001 Silly Feats" thread. Normal: Without this feat, an arcane caster may only sign his name. Oh... Um... NeueI think you should reread Drawmij's Instant Summons...
The nameles one 06-07-05, 05:37 AM	If you have a smart DM Foresight is one of the best spell's. It's basically a direct line to the DM. Auto spot traps, avoid natural hazards, etc. Its true power is out off combat.
D&D_Madness 5000 06-07-05, 08:56 AM	I think you should reread Drawmij's Instant Summons... I've never heard of that, is it a spell or something? Thats a bit hash You either mean hash browns or harsh... Nope, I'll go with hash browns. Seriously, there is only 1 spell for hurting monsters on lvl 1, and that's magic missile. All lvl. 1 spells except magic missile are just exploration and adventuring spells. All stuff above 1 is mostly stuff for battle, so I can't wait until my wizard reaches lvl 3...
Quirriff 06-07-05, 10:04 AM	Most useful spell is Prestidigitation (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707) Although not in an encounter it an avoid one or help you with other things, it's also more useful generally, because nobody is going to need a Fireball cast everyday.
Lord shadow35 06-07-05, 10:46 AM	Phantasmal killer: two saves vs. death will and fort. it is turned by spell turning. There are ways to be immune ie mind blank undead, constuct, feytouched. just really not a good spell. Horrid wilting: it beats up on water creatures. it donenst deal crap vs fighter types. also turned by spell turning. fighters have fort saves this spell forces fort saves. meteor swarm: How do you read this spell and say that is doent suck? really now! it deals a whole mess of fire damage that people at minamum 17th level are ethier taking half, immune or the fighters hurt alittle bit. So if you immune to the fire you take a max of 48 damage. wow who cares. Resist elements, protection from elements, energy immunity. a 2lvl 3lvl 7lvl spells laugh at meteor swarm.
Lord shadow35 06-07-05, 11:01 AM	summon monsters don't do crap for damage and you burn a round in combat.also they can be dispelled. They are also a kind of utility spell. Elemental swarm takes 10mins to cast. when the spell is cast 2d4 large elementals come out. ten mins later 1d4 huge elementals come out. 10mins later 1 greater elemental comes out. They get max HD for hp. they can all be dispelled. All in all the spell takes 30 mins to get to the full effect. That it a long time. Y not just use planar ally or binding or gate. :rolleyes:
Lord shadow35 06-07-05, 11:07 AM	mordy's sword does crap for damage and has a material component. i can think of other 7th level spells to use. mordy's privite sanctum is not a bad spell it is utility spell so you don't prep it everyday. Arcane mark is ok leave it alone Prestidigtaion is good also. :D
Falrion 06-07-05, 11:45 AM	Seriously, there is only 1 spell for hurting monsters on lvl 1, and that's magic missile. All lvl. 1 spells except magic missile are just exploration and adventuring spells. All stuff above 1 is mostly stuff for battle, so I can't wait until my wizard reaches lvl 3... Si if a spell is not a damage dealer, it sucks?? :confused: Well, I think you are kinda confused, yourself. Not everything in D&D is about blasting suff and critters up. IT IS A ROLE-PLAYING GAME so There are spells around that help or enhance role-playing, and almost al utility spells have some sort of use (they would have not gotten them into the manual otherwise)... Some of those spells you say that suck, have been around since 1st edition... so they must be useful... ShadowLord says Horrid Wilting, and Meteor swarm suck because at those levels, fighters have really high saves or there is some way to circumvent the damage they deal... well, if there were no way to avoid the damage, people capable of unleashing those spells would rule the world... "Do as I say, or u are toast!" :eek: Besides, if you are poweful enough to cast any of those spells, you can definitively are smart enough to dispel the other guys defenses or use your spells correctly... Don´t go meteorswarming the Red Dragon... It is no healthy for you..
Keenath 06-07-05, 11:50 AM	No, because Bull's Strength can be cast by nearly every caster in the game (including the partial casters like paladins and rangers). Furthermore, its actually a good spell. I can see a wizard preparing bulls strength. I cant see anyone preparing virtue. YMMV, or course.I admit it's weak. Occasionally you'll see a cleric prep it because he doesn't need any other low-level spells, and low level wizards like it. You can always dump it for a Cure Minor anyway. Yes, but some 0 level spells, namely prestidigitation, are exceedingly useful. They may not be powerful, but I'll bet some cantrips are cast in every gaming session (detect magic comes to mind).Sure. There are two or three cantrips that are very useful for their level. That means those few are particularly powerful, not that all the others are useless. The fact that magic missile is a great 1st level spell does not cripple Erase or Reduce Person. In fact, it's a much smaller problem to have a powerful cantrip, since everyone gets tons of cantrips early on, anyway.
RedLightning006 06-07-05, 12:40 PM	I find 0 level spells usefull all the time at low levels, and fun to play with at higher levels. for example: in a 5th level game our party was on the loosing end of a battle, so I had my sorcerer cast ghost sound to make it sound like we had reenforcements coming from the hallway behind us. The monsters we were fighting retreated to gather their forces. This gave us time to down some potions and use some buff up spells. the claric and I both cast a summon monster when we heard them comming back, our fighter, barbarian, and monk had bulls strength cast on them, and our manyshotting ranger got a true strike for his first shot. The encounter ended in 4 rounds in our favor. At higher levels we always use 0 level spells for some odd uses. We had a bard that was getting eyed by a group of shady looking characters. He used a combination of mage hand, ghost sound, and open close to make a small box float over and warn them not to try anything... i forget what he said exactly but I remember we had to stop for a while cause the dm couldnt stop laughing. Also... mage hand is a good way to get free drinks in taverns. Magic missle is my favorate spell at higher levels, twin cast + maximize something like 50 damage i beleieve with no attack roll... thats pretty nice.
DeadEye19 06-07-05, 12:57 PM	Meteor swarm does not allow a save if you hit the guy with a touch attack- a pretty easy thing to accomplish, which also adds 2d6 of bludging damage per meteor. If your enemies are close to each other, you can target someone for a lot of damage, while the others will potentially take some heavy amounts of damage too. Now, if you have arcane sight you might check if your opponents have fire ressistance from spells (usually the only useful resistance humanoids can have), and using this information to determine which one to target. You may also want to dispel their magic, because it will make the swarm more effective, plus it might take off some other usefull spells they have. It's always useful to cast a dispel magic on your opponent regardless of the meteor swarm spell, so you don't "burn" a round.
NeueRegel 06-07-05, 05:32 PM	I think you should reread Drawmij's Instant Summons... You're absolutely right, guy; I just confused the two summon-thing-to-me spells; I stand corrected; D's Instant Sums is the only use for Arcane Mark. Neue
tiercel 06-07-05, 06:38 PM	Horrid wilting: it beats up on water creatures. it donenst deal crap vs fighter types. also turned by spell turning. fighters have fort saves this spell forces fort saves. I've always seen the added damage vs water/plant creatures as just a small bonus. The other benefits of horrid wilting are: nontyped damage (no energy resistance will protect you, very sweet) targetted (while this is a weakness vs spell turning, it also lets you get, effectively, an AoE spell without having to blast any allies in the AoE) Fort save (it's true that fighter-types have strong Fort saves, but OTOH your victims can't use Evasion to laugh in the face of your direct damage spell) So... against fighters, sure, they're taking half damage, but unless they have picked up Mettle from one of the few prestige classes that offers it, half of horrid wilting is probably at least as much damage as any other direct damage spell against which they fail the save, but have some form of energy resistance. Let's also note that direct damage is generally not the smartest way to attack fighter-types, with their buckets of hp, anyhow. If you are really worried about them, you should be throwing Will save spells. Against other magi-types, not to mention anyone packing Evasion (whether it be rogues, monks, multiclassed characters with a few levels of rogue or monk, or just someone with that pesky arguably-underpriced ring of evasion), or if you need to throw AoE damage into an ongoing combat and don't have an archmage's Mastery of Shaping, horrid wilting is a strong choice.
Azzedar 06-07-05, 08:54 PM	sure im pretty new to the game but my friend who plays a wizard really wants the spell. i no you can get much better spells in epic but around 30d6ish(dont have ma phb on me) is kl, or atleast he finks so dnt burst his bubble by sayin its a bad spell Mordenkainen's Magnificent Spell-checker, anyone?
NeueRegel 06-07-05, 09:39 PM	Mordenkainen's Magnificent Spell-checker, anyone? Kno dowt! Wat a iodit!
Vanigo 06-07-05, 09:56 PM	Open/Close is pretty marginal. Read magic... There's nothing it does that you can't do with a pretty easy Spellcraft check.
Jet Destro 06-08-05, 01:48 AM	Now i know im a forum noob but I have to come to the defence of virtue. 1 hp isnt alot at all... but its a lvl 0 spell. Unless you have some huge plans with those other lvl 0 spells you can cast (which you might, mind you) its not a bad idea just to slap it on. Also, i think were thinking like high lvl players too much. Yeah 1 hp is 1 hp.. but look in the books for peasents and villagers and stuff. Elf commoner- 1 hp Well you just doubled his hp. Now im sure an elf isnt the healthiest of sorts, but if you translate to real life, you just said you can basically take twice the damage or impact of a normal human being. Also, elemental swarm, in my opinion, exists as a cool spell the evil wizard will cast that your party has to stop/fight.
smrtgmp 06-08-05, 02:14 AM	Sure. There are two or three cantrips that are very useful for their level. That means those few are particularly powerful, not that all the others are useless. I never said most cantrips were worthless. In fact, I was defending them. The only one I really dont like is virtue. I'm not saying its entirely without use, but it also doesnt rank very high on my list of cantrips to prepare. You either mean hash browns or harshWell, there is another option, but yes, I ment harsh. Seriously, there is only 1 spell for hurting monsters on lvl 1, and that's magic missile. All lvl. 1 spells except magic missile are just exploration and adventuring spells. All stuff above 1 is mostly stuff for battle, so I can't wait until my wizard reaches lvl 3...I couldnt disagree more. First of all, magic missile is pretty worthless at 1st level when you only get a single missile. Sleep or color spray or ray of enfeeblement are far better in combat at low levels. MM really comes into its own when you can throw around 4 or 5 missiles per casting, but its fairly sub par prior to that. Furthermore, there are countless higher level spells that have a plethora of uses outside of battle, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that all spells above 1st level are intended for use in battle. There is a lot more to this game then fighting.
Rulebook 06-08-05, 03:43 AM	dude, how can you say Mind Fog is a useless spell? you must only play blaster type mages... at higher levels this spell is a godsend. drop a mind fog, then a Wierd... or a mass hold person or something. they're -not- going to make those saves. i like playing Illusionists and Enchanters... IMO they beat out most blasters.
Talchar 06-08-05, 04:01 AM	One way to make virtue a non-useless cantrip is to make it an arcane cantrip. I can cannot really think of why a cleric would take virtue over cure minor wounds, but I can easily see a sorcerer or wizard taking virtue as a means of a short term heal/stable effect. ( a great way to buy some time untill the cleric arrives or some other character with a decent heal check.)
Venom of the Yuan Ti 06-08-05, 11:11 AM	meteor swarm: How do you read this spell and say that is doent suck? really now! it deals a whole mess of fire damage that people at minamum 17th level are ethier taking half, immune or the fighters hurt alittle bit. So if you immune to the fire you take a max of 48 damage. wow who cares. Resist elements, protection from elements, energy immunity. a 2lvl 3lvl 7lvl spells laugh at meteor swarm. Oh come on!!! You hit a fighter with the metors (and with his touch AC, YOU WILL HIT HIM) 8d6 bludgeoning +24d6 fire? Adverig of 77 (max of 144) dam, plus the dam you are doign to everyone else?
Lilt 06-08-05, 11:16 AM	I don't really think that a spell can be labeled 'useless' if it can be made useful. Find Traps lets a cleric who's bothered to invest cross-class ranks search almost as well as a rogue. When transferred through a spell-storing item, any rogue would greatly appreciate that insight bonus on his search checks or the Wizard could suddenly become better at trapfinding than the rogue. IE: Find traps is a highly useful spell with almost unique power depending on who it's cast on. I do think that Virtue is fairly poor, however. It has too short a duration to be used 'just in case' and there are usually better options if an encounter is imminent. It takes a round of your time to cast, but very very few creatures will ever be dealing 1 or less average damage per round. I've always considered Aid to be pretty poor also. It's like a 2-level higher version of virtue made, but this time it gives *less* pre-emptive healing than the cure spell of the same level. OK: It adds a bless-like effect, but that's only on one person so it hardly removes the need for the cleric to cast bless or the bard to sing, and those effects don't overlap.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 06-08-05, 11:35 AM	Ouch. Thats a bit hash. I believe we're supposed to be discussing Dungeons and Dragons...not drugs. :P
Lilt 06-08-05, 11:47 AM	I believe we're supposed to be discussing Dungeons and Dragons...not drugs. :PAh... so that's what D&D stands for. My group have been getting it all wrong :D
Corrupt 06-08-05, 11:49 AM	Yeah, virtue is pretty bad. 1 temp hp? Oooh, I'm so excited. There arent many spells I concider useless, but that is certainly one of them. Ive seen that spell save a life-My second level sorcerer had it cast on him by a cleric for lack of anything else to do with it. He received a critical hit from a Greatsword that did 20 dmg. His hp went from 10(with virtue)to -10. Luckily he was cured by 3 Cure light Wounds rapidly. But ill admit normally it sucks
runepriest7 06-08-05, 12:07 PM	Blight Create undead Phantasmal killer Nightmare enthrall Horrid wilting Mind fog Meteor swarm Summon monsters mordinkeinens sword Legend lore Elemental swarm some of those spells kick but dont you ever say phantasmal killer sucks its pulled my but out of the fire many times i admit that some of those spells are bad but some are really worth it in the end like the summon spells can become really powerful. see ya
grindarsfolly 06-08-05, 01:18 PM	why is dimensional lock an 8th level cleric spell doesnt forbiddance a 6th level and blocks extraplanar travel into the area - permanently
DeadEye19 06-08-05, 02:01 PM	Dimensional lock? Ever fought a demon? Do you know how frustrating can it be when he does massive damage, and when the battle tips to your favor- it teleports away? Dimensional lock can hold it in place. Yes, it might kill you, but it's a final confrontation. The demon can't "hit&run".
Llathos 06-08-05, 02:06 PM	I think someone needs to be introduced to the bad boys of punctuation: http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-10-11&res=l
Lord shadow35 06-08-05, 02:20 PM	some of those spells kick but dont you ever say phantasmal killer sucks its pulled my but out of the fire many times i admit that some of those spells are bad but some are really worth it in the end like the summon spells can become really powerful. see ya what in gods green earth are you talking about? diminsion door is twice the spell. y would ou prep that you could prep fear, d door, improved in vis, y would you use phantasmal killer it sucks. 2 saves vs death. enervation is better than that and i dont like enervation. NEXT Rulebook dude, how can you say Mind Fog is a useless spell? you must only play blaster type mages... at higher levels this spell is a godsend. drop a mind fog, then a Wierd... or a mass hold person or something. they're -not- going to make those saves. i like playing Illusionists and Enchanters... IMO they beat out most blasters. by blaster mage you mean evocation no accually illusion is one of the best schools enchantment is probley the worst. Mind fog forces a will save to lower there will save. this spell is stupid. think about it. son i usually play conjurers and abjurers. Mind blank laughs and all enchantment spells it makes you immune to mind effecting. any spellcaster worth his salt preps mind blank esspially at the level where fools are throwing around weird horriple spell by the way.
smrtgmp 06-08-05, 04:45 PM	Ive seen that spell save a life-My second level sorcerer had it cast on him by a cleric for lack of anything else to do with it. He received a critical hit from a Greatsword that did 20 dmg. His hp went from 10(with virtue)to -10. Luckily he was cured by 3 Cure light Wounds rapidly. But ill admit normally it sucksI hate to tell you this, but it wasnt virtue that saved your life. It was a blown call by the DM. If you hit -10, you're dead. @Lord shadow35: Cast Phantasmal Killer at a rogue and see what happens. He'll probably say it sucks too, but thats only because he'll be dead. The spell has its uses. And how can you not like enervation? Its one of the best spells for its level by far. As far as enchantment being weak: PLEASE! Who cares if mindblank makes you immune to mind-affecting effects? You have to be at least 15th level before you gain access to it, which means there is a lot of game to be played where no one can cast it. Furthermore, the individuals with access to mindblank already have kickass will saves, so chances are you wouldnt cast enchantment spells at them to begin with. So dominate wont work too well on you. It will work just fine on your fighter buddy standing next to you, and a well played enchanter will make sure nobody knows he's in control until its too late. Enchantment is a save or die school, same as necromancy. The only difference is that you use it on tanks instead of spellcasters. To top it off there is this nifty little spell called (greater) dispel magic, which is generally one of the first things you throw at an enemy spellcaster. Mindblank is hardly a fail-safe protective measure.
smrtgmp 06-08-05, 04:48 PM	I believe we're supposed to be discussing Dungeons and Dragons...not drugs. :PThe two go hand in hand. ;) Gygax must have been on something when he cooked up this game.
tiercel 06-08-05, 06:56 PM	Dimensional lock? Ever fought a demon? Do you know how frustrating can it be when he does massive damage, and when the battle tips to your favor- it teleports away? Dimensional lock can hold it in place. Yes, it might kill you, but it's a final confrontation. The demon can't "hit&run". Well, as a defensive prep spell, yeah, but if you are out adventuring and fighting a demon, much of the time if you throw down a dimensional lock and said demon wants to be able to get away, it will only need to take a move action and then teleport away. You're probably better off in this case with good old (4th level) dimensional anchor, which is only a touch attack (well, OK, and an SR check, but the lock allows this too) and sticks around on the demon, rather than being fixed to an area. Don't get me wrong -- as a defensive prep, the lock is sweet, but as an out-and-adventuring spell, less good unless you are dungeon-crawling through reasonably small chambers where you have a chance to corner enemies / cut them off from physical exits.
Lord shadow35 06-08-05, 09:44 PM	smrtgmp do you really ever play dnd. or just talk about it. wake up enchantment is the weakest school. Oh so you don't think greater dispelling is subject to spell turning. Cause if he hurls that greater dispelling and ends up targeting himself and automatically dispelling all spells in effect on the idiot wizard. Oh can you name a school that is weaker? :D
D&D_Madness 5000 06-08-05, 09:57 PM	maybe, but I haven't went to any D&D matches yet either, and I still know the weakest spells. How? I read the PHB alot...
smrtgmp 06-08-05, 10:14 PM	smrtgmp do you really ever play dnd. or just talk about it. wake up enchantment is the weakest school. Oh so you don't think greater dispelling is subject to spell turning. Cause if he hurls that greater dispelling and ends up targeting himself and automatically dispelling all spells in effect on the idiot wizard. Oh can you name a school that is weaker? :D I've played it for close to 20 years, actually. If you dont believe me, thats fine. It doesnt matter to me if you ignore one of the most powerful schools around. Like I said. You have to choose your targets. I wouldnt cast enchantment spells at a wizard, as they have good will saves. That would be like trying to poison a dwarven fighter. I'll save a quickened enervation/energy drain followed by disintegrate for mages, as spell turning has no effect on rays and their fort saves are already in the toilet. As far as turning a dispel attempt goes, its not like you're going to have spell turning up at all times given its short duration. Furthermore, an area dispel will isnt subject to turning. As for a weaker school, how about evocation? It used to be one of my favorites, but its been kicked in the teeth as of late. The damage dealing potential of such spells has remained the same or gone down since 2nd edition, yet HP totals have skyrocketed. Thats not a good combination for evocation.
Nyat 06-08-05, 10:18 PM	I have to agree with smrtgmp on this one. How can you call the school that allows you to turn enemies into pawns the weakest one? I would much rather control my enemies every move than kill him and thus waste a useful resource. And you can get around spell turning with a fun little feat called Ocular Spell. Turns that Greater Dispel into a ray, or assuming the guy doesn't have a 9th level spell active you can use the area version which hits the highest level spell (most likely Mindblank). Or you can just do the smart thing that smrtgmp suggested, target the fighter standing next to the guy with mindblank. The ones that can cast mindblank are the ones most likely to save against it anyways. When determing the worth of a spell don't think about what it can do against the person most likely to ignore it. All reflex for half spells don't suck because you might go up against a rogue. All spells that allow SR don't suck because you might go up against a golem. All illusion spells don't suck because you might go up against something with True Seeing. And all mind-affecting effects don't suck because you might go up against constructs, undead, or high level mages.
Lord shadow35 06-09-05, 12:53 PM	fellows you are both crazy and foolish. first off if the fighter is anywhere near wizard the fighter would get a minimum of 2 saves before evere hitting the wizard. And i don't know how you play wizards but in combat the wizzes aren't seen. improved invis is a handy spell. but you say something silly like true seeing or see invisibility. i will have to laugh and tell you to read the players handbook because nondetection kinda stop's that 75% of the time. enchantment does suck read the spells you think are good and worth while. dominate person is horrible dominate monster is horrible. these are not good spells.back to the first little silly idea of dominating the fighter to hit the wizard of that plan work then you have fools as the players and a goof for a dm. First fighters like to cover there weakness which is will save. second lets say for the sake of conversation that the fighter fail the save. the wizard next to him makes the spell craft and knows that the fighter was dominated and either dispells the spell or casts defensively and gets out of the way. By the way spell turning is 10min/level that is a long time especially when extended which is one of the greatest feats of low level games. touch of idocy is funny though. i would normally be defending enchantment becasue i loved the idea of the 3.0 shadow adept. but they nerfed the shadow adept. Good gaming guy's
Talchar 06-09-05, 01:18 PM	Actually IMO Enchantment spells are not the weakest, but they are the scariest. Every PC's worst nightmare is being dominated, enslaved, controlled or what not. Enchantment spells have the greatest potential for blowing up a DM's plot lines and creating party in fighting. Thus many PC's play the game of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) with their DM. The unspoken agreement is the PC's do not make a pain of themselves by enslaving the NPC's they meet, and the DM agrees not to mind control the PC's. A simple test on spell effect: Ask the player, which saving throw would you be willing to fail: Domination or Disintegrate, Charm person or Fireball
smrtgmp 06-09-05, 05:31 PM	fellows you are both crazy and foolish.If you disagree thats fine, but can the insults. Given what you have to say on the matter, you clearly havent used enchantements or seen them used properly. You also seem to be very confused about how the spells work. I'd correct you, but frankly I dont care. BTW-Its OK to hit the enter and shift keys every once and a while. Go a head. Give it a try. You'll like it, I promise.
Lilt 06-09-05, 05:47 PM	Quite frankly the consensus is that the enchantment school is very effective. So-far we have 1 spell which is almost universally agreed to be the most useless. 3 cheers for Virtue, now we only need to decide on the next 100 most useless spells.
LordHell 06-09-05, 06:26 PM	I pretty much agree with everything smrtgrp has said - and I am an exclusive spellcaster player. Enchantment is exceedingly useful. Anyone who dismisses it is extremely foolish. Yes one spell can render it useless at higher levels, but to be honest, most games don't even get that high. At 1st level, magic missile is one of the more useless spells. Spells like grease, colourspray, are very effective. In general disabling spells are very effective through-out the entire game. Evocation/blasting spells are great early on, but tend to peter off at higher levels. I think virtue is one of the most useless spells.
smrtgmp 06-09-05, 06:58 PM	So-far we have 1 spell which is almost universally agreed to be the most useless. 3 cheers for Virtue, now we only need to decide on the next 100 most useless spells. lol. only problem is that its hard to find that many worthless spells. Maybe we should start making some, similar to the silly spell thread.
Nyat 06-09-05, 07:18 PM	BTW-Its OK to hit the enter and shift keys every once and a while. Go a head. Give it a try. You'll like it, I promise. LIES! Paragraphs are for the intelligible! :shifty: *mental note: Use paragraphs...*
Lord shadow35 06-09-05, 11:10 PM	you don't care because you don't know!good comeback smrtgmp!!
smrtgmp 06-09-05, 11:34 PM	you don't care because you don't know!good comeback smrtgmp!!Yeah, thats the ticket. <snip> Like I said, if you dont like the spells thats fine. Its no skin off my back. I'll keep using them to great effect, and you keep ignoring them. Sound like a plan?
Nyat 06-09-05, 11:35 PM	you don't care because you don't know!good comeback smrtgmp!! smrtgmp has already shown that he has knowledge of how spells work. P.S. When mocking someones comeback it is usually a good idea to come up with something snappy, something that sounds like it didn't come from an 8-year old. And I'd know what 8-year olds sound like, I have around 20 cousins about that age.
Lord shadow35 06-09-05, 11:55 PM	my friend smrtgmp i was wondering if you had read the spell description for dominate person? im not being a jerk. I apologize for acting childish earlier.(Bad Mood) I was just wondering?? I know your not dumb by your other posts, in the other rooms. smrtgmp sounds like a grown man, i don't think he needs a pet mind your business,please.
Nyat 06-10-05, 12:18 AM	I'm sorry, but I enjoy speaking my mind, and when I have an oppinion on a topic, such as this case of smrtgmp's abilities and that of the school of enchantment I like to express it. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this thread was for select individuals only /sarcasm. And I'd like to apologize for being insulting in my last post, but immaturity bothers me (I've made similiar comments to smrtgmp in the past on another thread). The patronizing manner with which you responded to me almost made me rethink the apology, but I'd rather not be immature myself.
smrtgmp 06-10-05, 12:26 AM	my friend smrtgmp i was wondering if you had read the spell description for dominate person? Yes, I've read the description. Many times. What exactly is it about the spell that leads you to believe its so useless? Just a shot in the dark, but I'm guessing its this bolded line: Dominate Person Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid Duration: One day/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind. If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically. Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description). Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action. By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on. Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it. If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination. Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.Is that correct? If so, then I'm going to guess that you've had some DMs who said something along the lines of "well, he would never do what you say, so he gets another save regardless of what you tell him to do." Thats a load of excrament, and is a horrible interpratation of the spell. The command itself has to be against the individuals nature, such as ordering a paladin to slaughter small children (or any innocent for that matter) or a crime lord to dedicate his life to cherity. It does not mean, "well, I dont like that he's ordering me around, so I get another save." Unless the command itself is against your nature, you're out of luck.
Lord shadow35 06-10-05, 12:29 AM	well smrtgmp is a grown man i figure he i.e. grown man speak for himself. if it is on the topic speak on the topic. The board is for every one. but you know who i was talking to it wasn't to you it was to him. Think about it. Nice sarcasm real mature buddy.
Lord shadow35 06-10-05, 12:33 AM	so my smart man. slaughtering you party member is something that is in your nature. think man think. and the other line is sense motive 15 not 25,15 to see that the person is being dominated. apparently your dm could not read. it would not fly in any games that i play!!
Nyat 06-10-05, 12:37 AM	If you don't want anyone else responding then take it to private messages, as long as its on an open thread its open to everyone including me. And I think its prefectly within my rights to come to the aid of another poster. If smrtgmp doesn't want me to defend him then he can say so and I'll stop. But when the attacker asks me to stop I see no reason to listen. Do you have any reason why I shouldn't respond to your posts on a public thread, other than you weren't talking to me? And I've never heard of sarcasm being immature. If you think it is then I'll stop using it for this argument. so my smart man. slaughtering you party member is something that is in your nature. think man think. and the other line is sense motive 15 not 25,15 to see that the person is being dominated. apparently your dm could not read. it would not fly in any games that i play!! If your playing a good PC and are fighting evil it shouldn't be much of a problem. Especially if they are the kind of evil that would backstab allies.
smrtgmp 06-10-05, 12:39 AM	Sigh. Can you say anything with out resorting to insults? I've adressed this before in depth. I dont feel like repeating it, so you can find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=435274). Furthermore, attacking your companions is not necessarily against somethings nature, especially when dealing with evil creatures. If used against your best friend, then yes, he would get another save. But guess what, if he failed the first one, he'll probably fail the second one too. And yeah, it gives a sense motive check to know he's dominated. I'm sure your wizard is an ace in that department, right? Cause we all know wizards have maxed out social skills. You're problem is that you are thinking of everything in terms of spellcasters and interparty relations. Most creatures you encounter are not capable of casting spells, and as such are relatively helpless against enchantment spells in general. For example, the whole giant type is practically begging to be subjagated. And just because your fighter buddy will (attempt to) resist attacking you doesnt mean I cant dominate an assassin and send him after you, or something similar. There are other targets out there beside your bestest friend in the whole world. Honestly, if you cant find a use for mind control, then you arent trying very hard. In fact, your stubborness on this matter is so baffling I'm starting to think you're nothing but a troll. Hopefully I'm wrong. I suppose only time will tell.
Lord shadow35 06-10-05, 12:57 AM	i do like your explanation of how you see against your nature. it seems about what i would say. except for the fact of trying to turn party member against party member that is not going to happen becaue they all rely on each other. a troll huh ok. know that the wizard notices the spellcraft for the spell. rouges bards experts notice the sense motive at a meager 15 DC that's all im saying.
smrtgmp 06-10-05, 01:14 AM	And all I'm saying is that there are several tagets outside of your party, making the spells far from worthless. And again, if they failed the first save, they'll probably fail the second one as well, especially when dealing with a properly built enchanter. And I'm not saying you're a troll, just wondering. Its the recent join date and the string of inflamitory comments more than anything. No offense intended.
Lord shadow35 06-10-05, 01:26 AM	First off i am upset at the fact that people think enchantment is the greatest school. and it is so highly regarded as a really great school.( don't see how it is good) Second, i have played the game for a long time and i have always been a rule wh0re. i like that title and i don't. i just read that dominate and charms arent by the book the greatest. they have series of flaws. Thrid, i realize everything has flaws, but the rules of the spell say it it's self. Im usually immune to fire and at least protection from elements from acid. so if i was a troll im not easily killable. :P
smrtgmp 06-10-05, 04:28 AM	I never said it was the greatest school. I just said it was far from the worst. I do, however, think you are putting too much faith in the ability of tanks and the like the make the secondary save allowed when they are commanded to do something against their nature. As such, they will probably still do what you commanded. I dont know where you get the idea that they are somehow incapable of attacking an ally, even if it is against their nature. All they get is another save, and that aint much. I'll admit that the wording in the spell text is a bit awkward. Same goes for polymorph. That doesnt mean they arent good spells. If they all sucked so bad, they wouldnt still be around.
Talchar 06-10-05, 07:34 AM	I'll admit that the wording in the spell text is a bit awkward. Same goes for polymorph. That doesnt mean they arent good spells. If they all sucked so bad, they wouldnt still be around. Just a minor point of order, but is not this thread's purpose is to identify the spells that are still around yet suck? (not that I am voicing an opinion on any particular subject or spell, as I am still in morning over the loss of the great and powerfull push spell)
Lilt 06-10-05, 09:10 AM	OK. Let's throw some more on-topic material into the arena: Every spell can be used. The problem is that some of them sre only useful in highly contrived situations (ala the 10hp Sorc and Virtue). There are also a finite number of spells, so some spells people may consider to be occationally useful may be part of the 101 most useless list. It'd be best to satart-off with a list of 101 and swap some out for spells believed to be less useful 1 at a time. Detect Undead I've never seen anyone bother to memorise it. Aside from contrived situations where you have to figure-out who in a group of people is undead I really can't think of many uses for it. Normally Undead are easy to spot. It's the pale&skinny complexion, stale/rotten odour, and murmerings of 'Brains' that give it away usually. Vampires don't have these, but are you going to check everyone you meet with a casting of Detect Undead just in-case they're a vampire? Levitate This one might cause a stir, but consider that you can normally attain an actual flight speed, thus move yourself (and probably another), using Alter Self it seems much less useful. It has a secondary function of lifting heavy objects, however, and I could see this being useful sometimes. Is it really worth the memorisation in the morning? Holy Smite/Order's Wrath/Chaos Hammer/Unholy Blight There are almost always better options for 4th level spell slots. They don't do much damage and not all enemies are garuanteed to be evil. This is one of those "They're not *that* bad but they're worse than most" deals. Blight Lots of damage against a plant creature. A single plant creature, with a fort-save for half damage (the only good saves plants get are fort saves) and it's not even an awesome amount of damage for its spell level. I think we can possibly chalk this one up before Virtue as one of the worst spells ever. Move Earth Only useful in a highly contrived situations. This one's fairly negotiable, I just can't see anyone memorising it regularly. Circle of Death Kills creatures less powerful than you. Kills several 9HD creatures at best, but you need to be ECL 11 to get the spell (thus you'll be expecting to fight around 11HD opponents). It still has a fort save too, So Low-HD nameless mooks (generally fighters) still have a good chance of survival. It could be worse, but it gets less and less effective as you go up levels as 9HD opponents become a non-issue anyway.
mbfu3k 06-10-05, 10:28 AM	Detect Undead was actually used in our campaign as a means of tracking. Since the aura lingers, you can just follow it along without needing to make tracking checks. I don't recall if we used it at any point earlier in the campaign, but obviously our paladin/cleric had it memorized so she must've thought it useful; and it turned out to be in that situation. Also note that, since the spell penetrates some barriers, it could be used to find hiding undead. I'm on the fence on this one. It's definitely a spell you would rarely mem, if at all, but I can see its uses. I always have a Levitate memorized, or at the very least a scroll of it. You can lift an ungodly amount of weight with it and, with a little creativity, it can be used for all sorts of purposes. I'd definitely vote to leave this one off the list. Move Earth is quite useful in stronghold construction and mass combat where you have time to prep the battlefield to your liking... And not much else. I'm fine with throwing it on the list. Really, they should have left it as in previous editions in which the spell allowed you to dig quickly. Circle of Death wouldn't be too bad if it weren't for that material component. It'd still be weak, as you pointed out, but that 500gp material component just pushes it over the top. This one definitely belongs on the list. I can't really speak to the others you listed, Lilt, so I suppose that's an implicit vote for them to be on the list. :)
Cosmosis 06-10-05, 06:09 PM	Blight Lots of damage against a plant creature. A single plant creature, with a fort-save for half damage (the only good saves plants get are fort saves) and it's not even an awesome amount of damage for its spell level. I think we can possibly chalk this one up before Virtue as one of the worst spells ever. Agreed. Just use cone of cold and do the same amount of damage to multiple targets (plant or not) with the same-level spell. If we're allowed to include non-core spells here, I must mention the 9th-level sorcerer/wizard spell raise from the deep, from Dragon.
smrtgmp 06-10-05, 06:22 PM	I generally try and pick up boots of levitation as soon as possible for any caster I play. Unless you're in FR, alter self wont allow you to fly, as the only humanoid I know of with a fly speed is the avariel.
GDwarf 06-10-05, 06:40 PM	I myself see little use for levitation, sure you can lift things, but unless they are capable of moving themselves and are near a solid object that's all you can do to them. Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level) Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish. A creature must be willing to be levitated, and an object must be unattended or possessed by a willing creature. You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a move action. You cannot move the recipient horizontally, but the recipient could clamber along the face of a cliff, for example, or push against a ceiling to move laterally (generally at half its base land speed). A levitating creature that attacks with a melee or ranged weapon finds itself increasingly unstable; the first attack has a –1 penalty on attack rolls, the second –2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of –5. A full round spent stabilizing allows the creature to begin again at –1. Focus: Either a small leather loop or a piece of golden wire bent into a cup shape with a long shank on one end. (Emphasis mine), so unless a boulder or some such blocks your path it's fairly useless, although I suppose it could be used to scale a wall or some such. I'm fairly new to DnD so I'm sure there are uses out there for Levitate that I don't know about, but from my small experience it, although not being useless, is at about the same usefulness as Move Earth.
Guildmaster 06-10-05, 07:04 PM	i know a couple useless spells if you have a rogue in ur party *cough*knock*cough*
smrtgmp 06-10-05, 07:54 PM	I myself see little use for levitation, sure you can lift things, but unless they are capable of moving themselves and are near a solid object that's all you can do to them.There are times when all you need to do is move up. For a lowish level wizard, levitate is a great way to get above the battlefield, which puts you out of range of most melee components. Combined with wind wall, you will be very difficult to injure by mundane means. Its also quite handy to get around while adventuring. Being able to float up and down at will is pretty damn handy. I do think its better in an item than as spell to keep prepared, but its something I like to have on hand in one form or another, even if its just a scroll.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-10-05, 08:34 PM	I personally think most 2nd-level cleric spells suck in a relative sense.
Talchar 06-10-05, 09:35 PM	I would toss into the list: Find Traps - Useless and never used Power Word Kill, Foresight - High level and with little applicability & effect Legend Lore, Dream, Gentle Repose - Rarely used, and only applicable in limited cases. Ice Storm - Should be a powerfull 2nd level spell or a weak 3rd level. Useless at 4th level. Halt Undead-Why take this spell when you could take the 2nd level Command Undead
Bunny, Conqueror Supreme 06-10-05, 09:55 PM	I must say I frequently see use for Levitate, as I and my friends seem to have a "drop obscenely heavy object from insane heights on people" fetish *cough* rhinoceros *cough*.
RaspK FOG 06-11-05, 05:46 AM	First off i am upset at the fact that people think enchantment is the greatest school. and it is so highly regarded as a really great school.( don't see how it is good) Second, i have played the game for a long time and i have always been a rule wh0re. i like that title and i don't. i just read that dominate and charms arent by the book the greatest. they have series of flaws. Thrid, i realize everything has flaws, but the rules of the spell say it it's self. Im usually immune to fire and at least protection from elements from acid. so if i was a troll im not easily killable. :P I know why most people under 2e played Enchancters, and the rules still allow for reasons to do so! Read the following spells; while not the best, they certainly are good for a start: 0-level Daze 1st-level Charm Person Hypnotism Sleep 2nd-level Daze Monster Entice Gift (Draconomicon) Mesmerising Glare (Draconomicon) Tasha's Hideous (once Uncontrollable) Laughter Touch of Idiocy 3rd-level Deep Slumber Heroism Hold Person Miser's Envy (Draconomicon) Rage Suggestion Suppress Breath Weapon (Draconomicon) 4th-level Charm Monster Confusion Crushing Despair Lesser Geas 5th-level Dominate Person Feeblemind Hold Monster Mind Fog Symbol of Sleep 6th-level Geas Greater Heroism Mass Suggestion Symbol of Persuasion 7th-level Hiss of Sleep (Draconomicon) Insanity Mass Hold Person Power Word Blind Symbol of Stunning 8th-level Antipathy Binding Demand Maddening Whispers (Draconomicon) Mass Charm Monster Otto's Irresistible Dance Power Word Stun symbol of Insanity Sympathy 9th-level Dominate Monster Mass Hold Monster Monstrous Thrall (Draconomicon) Power Word Kill The fact is that some Enchantment spells work indirectly, while others boost your party, and most direct ones are powerful; thus, most are more than useful! Furthermore, the only classes who have Sense Motive as a class skill are Bards, Monks, Paladins, and Rogues; mysteriously enough, those with the skill points to spend on it usually (but not always) lack a high Wisdom score, unlike those who fall short on skill points... :plotting:
Lilt 06-11-05, 07:53 AM	OK, the levitate idea was just a shot in the dark. Find Traps - Useless and never used Power Word Kill, Foresight - High level and with little applicability & effect Legend Lore, Dream, Gentle Repose - Rarely used, and only applicable in limited cases. Ice Storm - Should be a powerfull 2nd level spell or a weak 3rd level. Useless at 4th level. Halt Undead-Why take this spell when you could take the 2nd level Command UndeadI still disagree with Find Traps being on the list. If you have no Rogue or Dwarf in your party then you need some way to find traps when dungeon-delving, it can be used to enhance a rogue's existing capabilities through a spell-storing item or casting of Imbue with Spell-Like Ability, plus the cleric can use it to 'aid another' if there already is a rogue in the party. I once had a character cast Persistant Find Traps on himself so he could help the rogue all-day in a trap-heavy dungeon. Power Word Kill: Probably a no-save instant-kill on a 17th level wizard with a +6 con mod or less. I don't quite agree that it's useless, if it was a lower level (8th for example) then you'd be able to no-save-kill even d8HD classes like clerics after only minimal initial damage. That-said, it does get useless quickly so maybe it does deserve to be on the list? Forsesight: I have to admit, it's probably not worth a 9th level spell-slot, but then-again I'm often thankful if 9th level spells aren't costly XP or GP wise. Legend Lore: This is the most commonly used spell by my cohort in one of the games I'm playing. It's perhaps not useful in some circumstanes, but we have always found it to be invaluable. Dream: Never used it, I think it only exists as a plot device. Most messages can be reduced to a sending which also offers 2-way communication and inter-planar communication. Good call. Gentle Repose: Do people never get deaths at fairly low levels? (before they get teleport) Ever need to prove that you killed the dragon, but have a 1-week trip back to town with what would otherwise be a terrible stench? You know how beached whale corpses can explode from gaseous build-ups? Think about what dragon corpses might do. Ever kill something big but want it preserved for food when you don't have enough purify food/drink castings? What about preserving a dragon corpse as you take it back to a leatherworker? Just some ideas. Ice storm: I once saw that spell cast against cold-vulnerable creatures, and it still did practically nothing. Good call. Halt Undead: Also a good call.
Talchar 06-11-05, 10:18 AM	I still disagree with Find Traps being on the list. If you have no Rogue or Dwarf in your party then you need some way to find traps when dungeon-delving, it can be used to enhance a rogue's existing capabilities through a spell-storing item or casting of Imbue with Spell-Like Ability, plus the cleric can use it to 'aid another' if there already is a rogue in the party. I once had a character cast Persistant Find Traps on himself so he could help the rogue all-day in a trap-heavy dungeon. Who am I to blow against the wind. Personally, a wand of Unseen Servant and 100 gp worth of farm animals can defeat most any trap. For the real hard ones, Animate Object can save the day. That said, Find Traps in the hands of most clerics is useless. The aid other is a benefit that I had not seriously thought of, but Guidance would give the thief a +1 and only take up a zero level slot. A party with out a rogue, useing the cleric to find the traps deserves the death that awaits it.
CaoSlayer 06-11-05, 12:18 PM	A group of PC's are rebels in their own land, forced into hiding for supporting the true king who has been deposed by his wizard brother. You'd better hope that you can prevent him from scrying on the king and assasinating him. And also if the DM have a lich BBEG, he will surely protect the philactery. any "find the item" quest actually
Rakasha#5 06-13-05, 01:11 AM	Okay halt undead sucks, open.close is horrible Blight is insanely bad I think pw kill is pretty good As for hold portal read this I believe it sums up http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=178 Finnaly I have found cure minor wounds as insanely useful because it heal caltrop wounds, woundding weapons and stabalizes people. It is pretty useful. Also I the bull streghth and its ilk are awful pretty much just because of their duration 1/round per level it suck Now really finnally erase is one of the most useless spell of which I have never seen a use for it.
smrtgmp 06-13-05, 04:04 AM	Also I the bull streghth and its ilk are awful pretty much just because of their duration 1/round per level it suck. Bull’s Strength Transmutation Level: Clr 2, Drd 2, Pal 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Strength 2 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw:Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject becomes stronger. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier. Arcane Material Component: A few hairs, or a pinch of dung, from a bull.Note the bolded text.
CaoSlayer 06-13-05, 09:15 AM	and still he is right that sucks a little because the little duration... there is almost no reason to use bull str. vs a stat item (only one: no money). but the truly sucking ones are the mass version... level 6 it is too high for those spells, specially in the bard list when a bard get them it is level 16 and everyone it is able to have a good set of stat items.
Lilt 06-13-05, 10:08 AM	and still he is right that sucks a little because the little duration... there is almost no reason to use bull str. vs a stat item (only one: no money). but the truly sucking ones are the mass version... level 6 it is too high for those spells, specially in the bard list when a bard get them it is level 16 and everyone it is able to have a good set of stat items. Lol... In that case there's "almost no reason" that someone would have a +4 Str item vs. an epic item which grants +10 to all stats. Now in the case of Bull's strength I'd have to disagree as 1 minute per level may last several combats if timed well. Out of the selection of attribute boosters, I would say the least effective is Fox's Cunning. It won't affect the number of spells the character gets per day or the number of skill points they have. Now the Mass versions of those spells are probably creeping into the realms of uselessness. They aren't going to have a saving throw so there's no real gain from them just being a higher level. Very few characters by 11th level won't have +4 items, or at-least +2 items, in relevant stats for themselves so much of the benefit would be lost. The most useful Mass Attribute Boost spells are probably ones that boost stats that everybody needs but aren't really critical, like Mass Bear's Endurance. The least useful one is probably Fox's Cunning again as any Wizard worth their salt will have a +4 Int item by then. Trapmonkey Rogues (probably the biggest users of int-linked skills) will have a +2 item or so by then too. Other characters could scarecly notice the difference as the bonus doesn't stay long enough for crafting.
DisposableHero_ 06-13-05, 10:16 AM	well, I think on the list of worst ability enhancers bull's strength deserves an honorable mention at least, simply because strength enhancements are the most common in the game, and enhancement bonuses the most common among them. Just in the PHB bull's strength must compete with divine power, iron body, and tenser's transformation as far as enhancement bonuses go. While thats not terrible by comparison since Bull's Strength is the lowest level of those, when you add a decent amount of non-core material there just exist too many ways to provide enhancement bonuses to strength for bull's strength to be of a lot of use after a few levels.
Lilt 06-13-05, 11:43 AM	Hmm, you bring-up a good point that there are several ways to achieve strength boosts. With that in-mind it may go lower than Fox's Cunning, but there are other factors there too. Divine Power, Tenser's Transformation, and Iron Body are all personal-range spells though (so-too is Fist of Stone, the only other Strength-enhancer I can think of). Without a Ring of Spell Storing, only 3 classes have access to spells that grant enhancement bonuses to strength other than Bull's Strength (and 2 of them classically use strength the least). Oh, and thanks for bringing-up Tenser's Transformation :D Tenser's Transformation is a spell that I've seen wizards get killed using. It has a costly material component (300gp, not much but not something you'd use every day). The main problem is that it makes them unable to cast spells. A Wizard with a +4 enhancement bonus to physical attributes in no way a fighter (who probably had physical attributes 4 higher anyway) and if they think it makes them one then they deserve to die. Their versatility reduces drastically for 1 round per caster level which, to some extent, puts the whole party at risk as they can't deal massive damage, teleport out, counterspell, dispell, or do anyting they might otherwise be expected to do. Their equipment requirements also change dramatically as they now need a powerful weapon and armor to stand-against opponents like the fighter. Tenser's Transformation is even less effective for gish types as they'll probably already have the attribute boosts, BAB, a sufficiently good fortitude save from high-fort levels, and have martial weapon proficiencies anyway.
CaoSlayer 06-13-05, 12:32 PM	you have made a point TT it is useless all by it self, it is a spell that requires preparation and other spells. for gish it is a good spell at some levels because bab grants extra attacks, only haste grant attacks. the best use of TT it is when you combo it with contigence or chain contigence so you can do things like shapechange-polymorph into something big and nasty like a hidra of twelve heads, haste for getting an extra attack, use stoneskin or iron body for protection and proceed to squash the enemies. also TT it is used as a last resort spell, when it is needed an extra punch or you are fighting against something with insane saves or SR like a gollem, it is better to be a crappy fighter than an useless caster.
Lilt 06-13-05, 02:15 PM	you have made a point TT it is useless all by it self, it is a spell that requires preparation and other spells. for gish it is a good spell at some levels because bab grants extra attacks, only haste grant attacks.It gives the Gish about +2 to +4 to Attack, +4 to AC (assuming he'll either have a dex item or be maxxed for his armor), +5 on fort saves, and possibly one extra attack. I admit that it sounds better than haste, but there's still the annoying fact that it stops you from casting spells. If things go wrong then you have to survive for 1 round/CL. Haven't you ever had stuff go wrong? Even the fighter can use an item of dimension door or flight to get out of there, or use a potion to heal himself, or do something to stop themselves from dieing. the best use of TT it is when you combo it with contigence or chain contigence so you can do things like shapechange-polymorph into something big and nasty like a hidra of twelve heads, haste for getting an extra attack, use stoneskin or iron body for protection and proceed to squash the enemies.Firstly, that's an extremely elaborate setup. I'd question wether or not it could be done cheaper, more easily, and more effectively using a casting of Divine Power from a spell-storing item. Secondly, you still can't teleport out or drink potions or dispel the enemy of his buffs or anything like what I've previously mentioned. also TT it is used as a last resort spell, when it is needed an extra punch or you are fighting against something with insane saves or SR like a gollem, it is better to be a crappy fighter than an useless caster.Something's wrong if the caster is useless anyway. If up against a golem you use your spells that offer no spell resistance (Melf's Acid Arrow, Orb of Electricity, Summon Monster) and use the spells it is vulnerable to from scrolls (Orb of Electricity, Lightning Bolt, ETC). Gah. I suppose you're right that it's not useless, but it's definately 'bad' in my books.
snowlynx 06-13-05, 02:46 PM	Useless spells.... I'm not fond of darkness. I can't find a use for it. I might as well use obscuring mist, or something. On other people's suggestions- Open/Close: good for opening trapped doors, I think. Ice Storm: This spell is somewhat pitiful, but I won't complain about it too much; it should be a 3rd level spell perhaps. I've used it exstensively in a game where I was playing a warmage (and it is a 3rd level spell for them) because it was one of the few 'cold' spells on the list I could cast. Dimensional Anchor: This spell is priceless for outsiders who don't want to be kicked off the material plane by some meddling cleric. Virtue: I've never used it, nor it's companion, resistance. It doesn't seem to be worth wasting a turn for. Tenser's Transformation: Use with shapechange or polymorph self to be a scary combat beast; but please, cast the shapechange beforehand. A group I play in includes a 20th level transmuter character with an obsession with combining the two. It seems to make the Cavalier in the group sort of useless.
DisposableHero_ 06-13-05, 02:57 PM	I disagree with TT for gish, I don't think thats good for a gish at all. If a gish is going to use one of those spells (and they likely aren't as they are usually designed to lose as little base attack as possible) the charisma base gish at least (and in my book thats most of them because its easier to find charisma synergy, and gish don't need a wide selection spells known, just the solid combat enhancers) can toss a couple cross class ranks in use magic device, and pick up a cheap +5 to use magic device item and a wand of divine power, netting them the base attack, and removing the need for a belt of giant strength. Second, polymorph base gish don't need TT, they'll either use natural attacks, or enormous strength to make up for a slightly lower base attack bonus. Extra attacks are nice, but when you draconic polymorph into a firbolg giant, its not about having full base attack, its about having a 44 base strength
Rakasha#5 06-13-05, 05:16 PM	Note the bolded text. Oh sorry I was told otherwise, well then it is just a little underpowered and not useless.
LordHell 06-13-05, 07:28 PM	At low levels, Bulls Strength is great for our cleric. She has 16 strength to begin with, after casting bulls strength, she has 20 strength and can almost outtank the tank. At higher levels, yes its pretty ineffective, but it's a fricken 2nd level spell for crying out loud. Lets not forget its application for crafting items too.
smrtgmp 06-13-05, 08:31 PM	At higher levels, yes its pretty ineffective, but it's a fricken 2nd level spell for crying out loud. My thoughts exactly. A +4 to str at 3rd level is pretty handy.
OctoberRaven 06-14-05, 04:05 AM	I'm looking for a spell that either has no use whatsoever. Haven't found any. Not one. These, while seeming useless at first, have a use. Clone- The relatively small cost as opposed to other resurrection spells GREATLY offsets the months of the new body growing. GP doesn't grow on trees. Inflict Minor Wounds: serves as a good suprise finishing blow to a monster with a bad will save and since it's a 0-level spell it wouldn't hurt keeping one of these handy in a later game. Sure, it only does 1 HP damage, but when it's the only thing you got left that can work something is always better than nothing. Open/Close- Say you got a Symbol of Death in your hideout activated by looking at it that you are attuned to, that you have a window that's shuttered on the outside but has double doors on the inside (you made this window for the SoD to work in this scenario without killing passersby). Someone breaks in, and tries to attack you, when you're close enough to the doors, but can't get to them, and you keep your brass key focus on your neck just in case. You grasp the key, say the words and make the motions. You get the doors to open, the squeaking of the hinges makes your enemy turn around...and they are dead, just like that. Not only is that useful, that's a darn cool trap when you picture it in your head. Tenser's Floating Disk- Got a gnome/halfling friend or some treasure you need to carry, but nobody can handle the load? No problem. Virtue- You're a paladin, your ally is wounded, this could save your friends life. That one extra round to make a Heal check could save him. Something to consider next time your preparing your spells. Nothing is useless. If it was, it wouldn't be there.
smrtgmp 06-14-05, 04:40 AM	Virtue- You're a paladin, your ally is wounded, this could save your friends life. That one extra round to make a Heal check could save him.Or you could just use cure light wounds, given that they're both 1st level paladin spells. Something to consider next time you're preparing your spells.
Talchar 06-14-05, 04:49 AM	All spells have some use, though some spells have fewer then others. Perhapse the most limited/ useless spells is soul bind. In virtually all cases, this spell would never be used.
CaoSlayer 06-14-05, 05:06 AM	jeje, the most important thing about clone it is that is an ateist raise dead spell, so a cleric inst needed or having to visit a temple... you can have a hard time trying to bluff a priest of Ilmater to raise the corpse of a famous evil necromancer :P. Also, having the clone away of the battle allows the player to survive a TPK or if the cleric it is slayed.
CaoSlayer 06-14-05, 09:23 AM	It gives the Gish about +2 to +4 to Attack, +4 to AC (assuming he'll either have a dex item or be maxxed for his armor), +5 on fort saves, and possibly one extra attack. I admit that it sounds better than haste, but there's still the annoying fact that it stops you from casting spells. If things go wrong then you have to survive for 1 round/CL. Haven't you ever had stuff go wrong? Even the fighter can use an item of dimension door or flight to get out of there, or use a potion to heal himself, or do something to stop themselves from dieing. Firstly, that's an extremely elaborate setup. I'd question wether or not it could be done cheaper, more easily, and more effectively using a casting of Divine Power from a spell-storing item. Secondly, you still can't teleport out or drink potions or dispel the enemy of his buffs or anything like what I've previously mentioned. Something's wrong if the caster is useless anyway. If up against a golem you use your spells that offer no spell resistance (Melf's Acid Arrow, Orb of Electricity, Summon Monster) and use the spells it is vulnerable to from scrolls (Orb of Electricity, Lightning Bolt, ETC). Gah. I suppose you're right that it's not useless, but it's definately 'bad' in my books. form the spell description SRD: You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list. So a TT mage can still use items, this is not rage, it is just a fast class-swap from pure mage to pure fighter (without feats, that it is the reason of why you need buffers for trying to match one). it is only weak if you use it without a backup, because it turns you into a fighter without feats, so you need things like a polymorph or a black edge of disastre for matching a real one.
Thanatos02 06-14-05, 10:27 AM	A lot of this thread is a couple of people saying, "I've found this spell to be poor." and people replying how they've put it to good use. You know what they say about one mans trash.... It's actually really educational, I think it has something to do with the fact that very few of these spells are totally useless but many of them really are very conditional. Hmm. Conditional. I believe that would make Divination the most powerful school. While not of a huge amount of use in actual combat, prepairing them on a day you know you'll just be hanging out. (Again, using one or two Divinations beforehand.) Anyhow, most of these spells have uses. If you find them useless, there's a chance that the right conditions just haven't come up. Probably has something to do with your game and not the spell. I'm considering making a "101 Useful Spells".
OctoberRaven 06-14-05, 02:40 PM	All spells have some use, though some spells have fewer then others. Perhapse the most limited/ useless spells is soul bind. In virtually all cases, this spell would never be used. - Evil Cleric PC needs to offer a soul to a demigod by placing the gem in one of said demigod's temple - BBEG's lackey (or BBEG himself) keeps being ressurected - and of course, a sadistic band of warriors would love to keep momentos... Or you could just use cure light wounds, given that they're both 1st level paladin spells. Something to consider next time you're preparing your spells. Touche. How about going into battle with an extra HP? Remember at 1st level every HP counts.
Talchar 06-15-05, 01:00 AM	- Evil Cleric PC needs to offer a soul to a demigod by placing the gem in one of said demigod's temple - BBEG's lackey (or BBEG himself) keeps being ressurected - and of course, a sadistic band of warriors would love to keep momentos... Exactly, my point. Yes you can think of a use, but the use is really a plot device and not a spell that a character would ever memorize except in a condition where a specific creature is to be killed, and there is a significant reason or need to insure that the creature stays dead. That said, the rules aready provide a way to keep a creature dead. The wish spell, has the ability to keep a dead creature dead, as exampled in the tarrasque description. Thus, even as limited as this spell is, another spell can duplicate its function. So you are faced with the question, pay the gold piece cost of Soul Bind ( which I would argue you would need to use some high level divination spells to insure that the gem is of sufficent quality or oay the wish exp cost.
mbfu3k 06-15-05, 01:30 AM	Thus, even as limited as this spell is, another spell can duplicate its function. Not to mention, as I pointed out earlier, that could just use Trap the Soul to keep them "dead" (or as good as) without the need to bother actually killing them first or allowing them a save or SR. All for the same GP cost but with a lower level spell. Bah.