Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-02-06, 03:25 PM	Before we get started, I know about the epic spellcrafting rules. I've decided that Epic spellcasting is too loose to actually use (and besides, if 0-9 works so well, why stop there?) 10th level spells would be available at 21st Level (22nd for Sorcerers), and to keep the Epic game balanced, you need four more levels to get 11th level magic spells. That said, I was wondering what would be appropriate 10th level spells, or if someone has other fun spells for still higher levels, that would be cool as well.
tarkin 10-02-06, 04:16 PM	The simplest set of things would be: 1) Increased damage caps and other caps, as per the standard rules (2 levels up = +5 to damage cap) 2) Fill in the appropriate spells that have clear progressions (i.e. shadow series stuff - make a 10th level version of Shadow Evocation, and globe of invunerability could also be boosted up.) 3) Take lower level spells and add in boosters such as "Mass" when appropriate. That should do a lot of the basics for you.
wackywizjr 10-02-06, 04:25 PM	I agree as to the need for higher level spells. The epic spells are such a leap in power of 9th level spells. Look at the spell Hellball it does 40d6 of damage. To work on the above suggestion though you would also have to develope higher level spells for the other spell casting classes as well.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-02-06, 04:37 PM	Ones I was thinking of: Tarrasque Slayer: This spell turns the Tarrasques regeneration into just fast healing, meaning that Epic heroes facing the Tarraque no longer need to burn XP to kill it. Fantastic Freeze: This spell of utter cold hits an area, making it so cold as to deal 10d6 cold damage every round for its duration. Ice immediately forms on the ground, and if there is water vapor in the air, it immediately begins to snow. This spell is powerful enough to resist hundreds of points of fire damage before being dispelled with a heat effect. It would be possible to cross lava without heat damage with this spell. Summon Monster X: The Summon Monster X list is going to be 2 CRs higher than the summon monster IX spell (If it takes four levels to get new spells, this is balanced) Ruin: This precrafted Epic spell has one very serious advantage over most other kinds of spells--it lacks a damage type, and so is difficult to resist. Ruin does 2d6 damage per level, capped at 35th level. Planewalk: You gain the ability to Plane Shift, as a standard action, at will for several minutes. Gilette's Divination Denial: At epic levels, detection spells and abilities are incredibly powerful, espically if wish is included in the package. GDD automatically thwarts all spells below 8th level, and an opposed caster level check is required for 8th and above. Even Wish can get thwarted with GDD. Awesome Dispel: Like lesser dispels, Awesome Dispel is very good at countering magical abilities, but unlike the troubling spell MkDj, it's not a gear killer. It can go up to +40 dispel check, +! per caster level. Limited Immortality: You can not die during a short period. Save or Die effects, if they don't deal damage, are automatically resisted. If they deal damage, you can still take that damage. If your hit points are at a point where you would die of damage, you can fight on until you are at -100% of Max HP (where your body is physically unable to fight). You die if the spell runs out. Any others?
Thiez 10-02-06, 05:00 PM	Something wrong with limited immortality: if your normal hp < 10, it actually makes damage more dangerous :D Also, I think it's too weak compared to some of the delay death cheese one can use.
Stormonu 10-02-06, 05:32 PM	Tarrasque Slaying A bit too specialized. Perhaps it turns all creature's regeneration ability to Fast Healing, though even that seems like a lower level spell overall. Other ideas: Pocket Dimension Opens a tear in reality that leads to a demi-plane. The size of the demiplane is about 100 feet + 50 feet per 2 levels. The creator specifies the planar traits of the pocket dimension. Utterdeath Kills victim of up to 10 hp/level (max 200 hp). Victim cannot even be brought back to life by spells such as Wish or Miracle. Army of Death Allows you to raise and control 4 HD/level of skeletons, zombies, shadows or ghouls Divine Aid Summon an aspect of the god you worship for a short period of time to assist you. Gates of Hell Open a portal to hell and summon devils to aid you as if you were a Pit Fiend. Maw of the Abyss Open a portal to the Abyss and summon devils to aid you as you were a Balor Gates of Heaven Open a portal to Celestia and summon angels/archons as if a Solar Might of the Fiend Become a Balor or Pit Fiend for a short period of time Might of Heaven Become a Solar for a short period of time Death Image Phantom image of foe appears and attacks its copy; if the original is slain, image disappears Protection From Mortal Magic Immunity to 1st - 9th level spells for short time Shadow of the Heart Remove your heart and store it elsewhere; while heart is displaced, you can't die Summon Elemental Monolith Summon an elemental monolith to fight for you One thing to to consider: If you go back to the spell seeds of Epic spells, the basic difference between spells is 2 points of spellcraft. If you can break spells down into spellcraft points, you might be able to better devise 10th+ spells.
WinDReiN 10-02-06, 06:11 PM	10th level spells would be available at 21st Level (22nd for Sorcerers), and to keep the Epic game balanced, you need four more levels to get 11th level magic spells. l. You're bringing the Netherese Arcanist PrC back from the dead in some ways. Although they could cast 11'th lvl spells at 31'st and 12'th lvl at 41'st character lvl. They died because they had too much power. Take it under consideration.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-02-06, 06:19 PM	Well, the idea is that 10th level magic spells are better than 9th level spells by ONLY SO MUCH. We are talking about the same power gap as between 4th and 5th level spells as the gap between 9th and 10th--a respectable but not dominating increase in power, and at twice the level costs. Epic Magic is extremely unhinged, RAW can't be much better than the Netherese Archivist (Gain Temp HP with a spell and then backlash yourself silly see just how much further an epic build can work.) Nothing truly insane should be allowed, even at 10th level. Insane spells belong at insane power levels.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-02-06, 06:49 PM	Okay, a few More: Bestow Vicious Curse: This spell would be able to do truly vicious things to a character (His ability scores become 1, or if doesn't EXACTLY hit the enemy's AC, he misses. If he doesn't exactly hit the required saving throw, he doesn't save). Vicious Curse is the "Mega-Curse" aspect of the Wish Spell seperated from its XP cost, but at the price of another spell level higher. Remove Vicious Curse: Should be easy to figure out. In addition, RVC automatically takes out a Geas or any lesser magic. True Dominate: A 'Clone' of the very dangerous psionic power, where someone spends minutes under someone elses control. I think that True Dominate is probably 10th level, Thrall is probably 12th Level (Remember that Asmodeus has an ability to that effect) Temporal Stability: A spell that automatically negates all acceleration effects (Haste, Slow), and gets a saving throw to stop 9th level abilities (Temporal Stasis and Time Stop) and more. Temporal Stability also creates opportunities to defeat time travel or other effects. Modimorph: More precise than Polymorph, Modimorph allows you take a single ability from a creature with lower HD than yourself (which is entitled to a saving throw) You retain all your own abilities during the effect of this spell. Coerced Resurrection: This spell is of sufficent power to forcably raise someone from the dead. They are entitled at a saving throw (one appropriate to their living form, not their petitioner form) to resist. Greater Heal: This Spell removes all negative levels, removes all diseases with a DC less than 40, negates all ability drain. In general, Greater Heal automatically beats a 7th or lower magic spell, and the character gets another saving throw against abilities that power level. All senses, limbs, and other anotomy is regenerated with this spell. Greater Heal restores 4d6 HP/level. It is capped at 40th level--160d6. It also does the same damage against undead (but they get a save for half) Greater Harm: You know what this does, just take a negative sign for the one above it. This spell does not cause level loss, but 3k GP in jewels are used up in the casting of this spell.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-02-06, 06:57 PM	Something wrong with limited immortality: if your normal hp < 10, it actually makes damage more dangerous :D Also, I think it's too weak compared to some of the delay death cheese one can use. I Meant -10 (I do houserule the dying threshold, it should be equal to the number of HD). Being able to fight on to -100% HP is very, very powerful. It's an awesome buff, but probably not terribly broken, as it can get dispelled, or Pelor forbid, you could bash someone below -100%.
WinDReiN 10-02-06, 07:31 PM	Well, the idea is that 10th level magic spells are better than 9th level spells by ONLY SO MUCH. We are talking about the same power gap as between 4th and 5th level spells as the gap between 9th and 10th--a respectable but not dominating increase in power, and at twice the level costs. Epic Magic is extremely unhinged, RAW can't be much better than the Netherese Archivist (Gain Temp HP with a spell and then backlash yourself silly see just how much further an epic build can work.) Nothing truly insane should be allowed, even at 10th level. Insane spells belong at insane power levels. If you're talking about the same power gap as between 4th and 5th level spells, then you're simply changing the limit for spell lvls from 0-9 to 0-10 or 11... which would mean that those spells are not epic, since you gain them by advancing in your spellcasting class. There is supposed to be a limit, and it exists, 0-9. Otherwise you're badly overpowering the spellcaster who can cast such spells. Epic spells do not have a limit in power, the only restricton is the Spellcraft DC. That's why they are hard to get, and very expensive.
Ogreman 10-02-06, 07:53 PM	You can also metamagic your lower-level spells. Who doesn't want a quickened Tenser's Transformation? Sweet.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-03-06, 02:09 AM	If you're talking about the same power gap as between 4th and 5th level spells, then you're simply changing the limit for spell lvls from 0-9 to 0-10 or 11... which would mean that those spells are not epic, since you gain them by advancing in your spellcasting class. There is supposed to be a limit, and it exists, 0-9. Otherwise you're badly overpowering the spellcaster who can cast such spells. How so? They get the new spells at new levels only after four levels, not at two. I'm well aware that spellcasters exceed the power of other types at this point, and without some kind of modification, yes they would dominate. And getting 10th and 11th levels spells is supposed to be an appropriate reward for getting that far in a spellcasting class. They are supposed to be cool. What I don't understand, I guess, is this odd notion of 'limit'. Shouldn't epic games be structured? Instead, they seem like dumping feats and allowing options for magic spells instead of actually continuing anything more than patterns. Isn't restricting what spells someone can cast a 'limit?', and how does raising the 'limit' overpower a class. I think that the spellcasters a getting a bit of a rough deal here (though reasonably balanced). Can you please explain how this is not the case? Epic spells do not have a limit in power, the only restricton is the Spellcraft DC. That's why they are hard to get, and very expensive. This DC is actually not a very good check. Giving yourself a bunch of temporary HP, and then taking a backlash effect can allow you power that you should never have. I'd argue that this unlimited power is what's unbalanced. I think the stuff posted in this thread is cool, but not broken. And I'd like 10th level spells. more of them, not to be broken either. And yes, instant Tensers is fun, but if you get to epic levels, you deserve it.
Johnny_Angel 10-03-06, 05:18 PM	I can agree with both points of view to some extent. On one hand I agree with the idea of having 10th level and higher spells because that makes it a little more structured and easier to keep track of; however, the unstructured nature of epic magic is exactly what I like about it. Flavorwise, it seems to make more sense that an epic mage -someone who is supposed to be the epitome of magical study- has the ability to craft their own spells. I like the idea that I can (when playing an epic caster) create spells which better suit my character's concept and personality. I do admit that the epic rules are a little fuzzy, so maybe that's what needs to be looked at more. At any rate, the topic for the thread is ideas for higher than 9th level spells, so I am going to list a few of the ideas I have. Most of these can be create using epic rules too; either way, these are my ideas: Greater Timestop same as Time Stop except you can attack and target individuals. Haste/Slow I haven't come up with a good name for this one yet, but basically it's a simultaneous casting of Haste and Slow. You get haste and your opponent gets the effects of the spell slow. Super Slow Similar to slow: the target of this spell may take one action every 1d4 rounds. Curse of Demogorgon Target grows a second head which looks identical to it's normal head; the second head has the opposite alignment of the subject's normal alignment. Each round there is a 50% chance for each head to control the body. Aura Shift You can cause the target to emit an aura of your choice (evil, good, chaotic, good.) I know that there are spells similar to this already, but this one would be intended to be used on other creatures, but you could still use it on yourself if you wanted to. It could be useful though. If you were fighting a celestial while in the upper planes, you could cast this spell and have them emit an evil aura which would cause other celestials to attack it for being evil.
angryman 10-03-06, 10:35 PM	Sorcerer/Wizard- Lightning Pulse 10th level Evocation (Electrical) Medium range Strikes the target for 1d6 electrical damage per level (maximum 25d6) for 1d3 rounds. Each round he must save or be stunned that round, including the first. Cleric- Reave Soul 10th level Necromancy Touch Target must save or die. If he fails, his soul is destroyed and requires a wish and true resurrection to be raised. If he has a Death Ward or similar protection below 8th level, this spell attempts to dispel it (as per greater dispel magic) before taking effect.
WinDReiN 10-05-06, 05:11 AM	How so? I'm well aware that spellcasters exceed the power of other types at this point, and without some kind of modification, yes they would dominate. True. You would have to boost all the other classes as well if you want them to be balanced. In DMG on page 36 there is a table which show the max dmg for acrane and divine spells. Up-gradeing this table seems overpowering to me. 10th lvl spells would be gained by advancing in a spellcasting class. Epic spells are expensive and require time to be made. Wealth and time are the limit. I think the stuff posted in this thread is cool, but not broken. And I'd like 10th level spells. more of them, not to be broken either. I like the idea, and I'd like a new ELH too, with new spells :). You can include these spells in your campaign, hope it doesn't make it unbalanced. I follow the RAW, and don't think that I would.
Esponer 10-05-06, 05:30 AM	I absolutely agree with the original poster's idea. Spellcasters should continue to gain spell levels as normal, rather than the awful epic spell system. What I would suggest, however, is that all 10th or higher level spells must be obtained either by researching them or discovering them on some quest. With the exception of perhaps sorcerers, you shouldn't just be able to level up and pick up a 10th+ level spell. Some spell concepts are overpowered at any level, like a time stop that lets you harm others as well. The key to understand here is that if you're a DM allowing your wizards and such to have 10th level spells and research (design) his own for approval, you also need to give fighter players the ability to research (design) their own high level fighter feats which, equally, scale.
Thane26425 10-05-06, 02:09 PM	Level 10 spells are already limited as written. First you have to reach level 21, then you have to pay the huge GP and XP costs, not to mention to time involved and needing to have a very high spellcrafting skill. That XP penalty alone is enough to set a caster well behind the rest of his party if he researches more than one or two, depending on which ones he researches. Level 10 spells are a major investment for a character and I think it was written that way on purpose so as to prevent a PC from having a lot of them like they could with ordinary spells.
wonlee76 10-05-06, 02:20 PM	Technically, there are level "10" spells via the epic feat, Increase Spell Capacity I think (which gives you 0 10th level spells but with a high enough casting stat, you may get 1 or 2 slots). You could keep taking Increase Spell Capacity to get zero 11th, 12th, etc. spell slots. I believe it was intended for metamagic versions of lower level spells. A way to get a maximized/empowered Polar Ray and stuff like that. 2nd edition had 10th level spells in different supplements if I recall correctly so you could get some inspiration from those books. Dragon Kings (Dark Sun setting) Elves of Evermeet (FR Setting) There may be a few other 2nd edition books with "10th" level spells in them but those two are the ones that come to mind.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-06-06, 02:43 AM	Level 10 spells are already limited as written. First you have to reach level 21, then you have to pay the huge GP and XP costs, not to mention to time involved and needing to have a very high spellcrafting skill. That XP penalty alone is enough to set a caster well behind the rest of his party if he researches more than one or two, depending on which ones he researches. Level 10 spells are a major investment for a character and I think it was written that way on purpose so as to prevent a PC from having a lot of them like they could with ordinary spells. This is true that 10th level metamagic abilities are available, using intensified, megapowered, or whatever modifications to regular spells, and part of the deal would be Metamagic + 9th level spells (and 10th and more, as you go beyond them). As written in RAW, EPIC spell slots are a whole different matter entirely, a function of your ranks in spellcraft (1 EPIC/10 Ranks), a system which leads to very little and very powerful (I'd say Brokenly powerful). The 10th level spell slots (and the 11th and ones above them) would replace the large numbers of Feats the Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Cleric gets. Psions would work the same way, but as they are more secondary to the game, they would be less important. Other classes with spellcasting ability (but lacking full progression and full lists), would require extended lists for higher spells. As for great quests: The Epic Level Handbook discusses the possibility of writting these spells on a gold tablet--which turns into stone when the magic is created. Such Gold Tablets could share epic spells, and 10th level spells. 10th level spells would be incredibly precious--using them as rewards would be appropriate, or as very serious purchases. Without the spells, you've still got metamagic, so the slots aren't useless.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-06-06, 03:22 AM	Continuing the fun: Extreme Growth: This spell allows one willing recipent to grow massively in size: one size category per five caster levels. The Growth can continue past Colossal; the damage dealt continues to increase one step, Reach increases 25% for each step. The Recipient can reach truly absurd sizes with this spell; but the spell is capped at 30th level, six size increases is the maximum. Mindtap: Mindtap allows the caster to course the thoughts of a target, who needs to make a saving throw to even notice the intusion. Mindtap doesn't last very long as a spell, but it allows a very strong familiarity bonus to all social skills, as well as insight bonuses to AC and attack against the tapped target. Mindtap can be used to cause mental damage (Ie, Amnesia, Insanity, Stupor), but it can't be concealed if this is done--this would be similar to the Mindrape spell in the BoVD. Temporal Inquiry: One of the best learning spells available, Temporal Inquiry gives the caster full knowledge of an item or locations history (Much of this is uselss knowledge, but the answers are there) It also gives a few likely occurances that will happen in the future. Lesser Damage Shield: This spell grants damage reduction 10/- until it blocks five times the casters level (Capped at 32nd level). Damage Reduction overlaps, not stacks, so this spell can not create massive damage reduction effects. Awesome Planar Binding: This spell allows you to call a single creature or combination of creatures up to 32 HD. Each creature gets a save against the effect, and must be persuaded to help you. Awesome Planar Ally: As Lesser Planar Ally, except you may call a creature up to 32 HD (Or combination of Creatures). These creatures agree to do a task for you and request a favor from you in return. Gravity Manipulation: (Drd 11, Sor/Wiz 10). Gravity Manipulation allows you to modify the force of Gravity in a given area; its duration depends on your caster level. Gravity Manipulation can function as a reverse gravity effect, but it can also nullify gravity, add light, very light (falling damage 1 per level), heavy gravity, and superheavy gravity (falling damage upped to 2d6 per 10 feet, triple all weights) Gravity Manipulation can change the force of gravity once per round, however, using gravity to rip someone with G-forces in this way is not very effective (2 times falling damage roll, Fort half). Its much more effective to use the spell to slam people into things. Dragon Ally: You call a dragon to assist you--it has the same number of HD as your caster level (Capped at 32nd Level) Lets see more of these. 8)
wackywizjr 10-06-06, 09:36 AM	Massive Missile Evocation[Force] Components: V,S Level: Sor/Wiz 10 Casting Time: 1 Standard Action Range: Long 400ft + 40ft/Level Target: Up to 3 targets no 2 of which can be more than 250' apart Duration: Instantanious SavingThrow: None SpellResistance: Yes Description: A missle of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target dealing 10d6 points of force damage. The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of acreature can't be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell. For every five caster levels beyond 20th you gain an additional missile - two missiles at 25 level, and the maximum of three missiles at 30th Level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles , you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or damage.
Thiez 10-06-06, 10:01 AM	wackywizjr, long range is 400 ft. + 40 ft./level :)
angryman 10-06-06, 10:11 AM	Cosmic Banishment 11th level Conjuration Range: short Duration: 1 round per level You utter a word of power and a tear appears in the multiverse, 10' wide and 10' long, through which you can see stars and the void of space. For each round of concentration, it increases by 10'. Anything within 20' of this tear must make a Reflex save or be sucked into the vacuum of space. People sucked into vacuum can't breathe. (as per drowning rules) The only way to return is teleportation or similar magic. If the victim doesn't need to breathe, he is stuck in space.
Veomyr 10-06-06, 10:36 AM	If you want ideas for 10th level spells, take a look at Arcana Evolved. You can do things like create a floating castle with that kind of power.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-06-06, 04:58 PM	Rules Question: How would 10th level magic work with anti-magic fields and Mordenkainen's disjunction? Also, what would outer space deal in terms of damage? I was thinking that decompression would actually not be that serious in terms of cold damage (not much to convect heat to), and the lack of pressure damage, I believe, takes 30 seconds to kill someone. Sending people into a vacuum is good, the fort save makes sense (your eyes and brain pops), but how do they get out?
angryman 10-07-06, 05:27 AM	Rules Question: How would 10th level magic work with anti-magic fields and Mordenkainen's disjunction? Also, what would outer space deal in terms of damage? I was thinking that decompression would actually not be that serious in terms of cold damage (not much to convect heat to), and the lack of pressure damage, I believe, takes 30 seconds to kill someone. Sending people into a vacuum is good, the fort save makes sense (your eyes and brain pops), but how do they get out? As I said, the only way to return from the void is via teleportation or similar magic. Yeah, the cold damage is extreme. http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html Follow this link, after reading it, I've modified the spell. (read above)
molten_dragon 10-07-06, 07:37 AM	Summon Elemental Monolith: Summon an elemental monolith to fight for you This is already a 9th level spell.
VrecknidjX 10-07-06, 09:21 AM	Greater Wish 11th level. I figure if Limited is 7th, and regular Wish is 9th, then a bigger and better one would be at 11th. It will work like the other spells--give you an ability to cast other spells, etc., and should be able to do even more amazing stuff than a Wish. Dave
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-07-06, 12:50 PM	Greater Wish 11th level. I figure if Limited is 7th, and regular Wish is 9th, then a bigger and better one would be at 11th. It will work like the other spells--give you an ability to cast other spells, etc., and should be able to do even more amazing stuff than a Wish. Dave Makes Sense: Okay, Greater Wish: 11th Level. Lets keep the XP cost reasonable--10,000 is quite much for a 25th level character. It figures that: Greater Wish can emulate 10th level spells, 9th level spells of other spell lists, and 8th level spells from forbidden schools. Greater Wish would probably allow you to gain a free feat, and increase your stats up to +10, two points at a time. Greater Wish should also be able to truly wreck the previous Wish spells. The limits for Greater Wish would be far abound, but some guidelines would be these: Could four to six Wishes accomplish this? If they could, Greater Wish can do it in one. If the effect would be roughly 12th level, Greater Wish could probably do it with regularity (Just as Wish gets the Vicious Curse and Remove Vicious Curse options of a level above it, so would Greater Wish get that sort of out leveled power.) Greater Wish would be able to own a CR 20--including the Tarrasque--with one casting. Using against someone at the minimum caster level (25th Level), it would be decisive but not final, and against a 30th level target, it would only a minor effect. How's that for guidelines?
FeanorCursed 10-07-06, 02:12 PM	Karsus Avatar - 13th You become a god. :D
CantripN 10-07-06, 07:59 PM	Karsus Avatar - 13th You become a god. :D First of all, I believe it was a 12th level spell originally... Second, no. Maybe divine Rank 0. To get Divine Rank 1, I'd allow 15th, at least, if you want to bypass the Overgod(s). Under no circumctance do you get all of Mystra's power, is that clear? One Fall of Netheril is quite enought, thank you! I also remember seeing an Epic spell on these boards used by an Epic Chameleon to become a deity. He was ~40th level.
wackywizjr 10-08-06, 02:41 PM	wackywizjr, long range is 400 ft. + 40 ft./level :) Noted. Thanx
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-08-06, 05:45 PM	First of all, I believe it was a 12th level spell originally... Second, no. Maybe divine Rank 0. To get Divine Rank 1, I'd allow 15th, at least, if you want to bypass the Overgod(s). Under no circumctance do you get all of Mystra's power, is that clear? One Fall of Netheril is quite enought, thank you! I also remember seeing an Epic spell on these boards used by an Epic Chameleon to become a deity. He was ~40th level. The only reason Netheril fell and Karsus did not become a god was that Karsus did not know how to control his new powers i.e. he could not handle the strain the phaerimm put on the weave with their magic. If he had picked any other god he would have been fine.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-08-06, 05:53 PM	Karsus Avatar - 13th You become a god. :D Getting DR 0 temporarily: Immune to polymorphing, energy drain, ability drain, mind altering effects, gains DR 35/+4 (This goes to 35/Epic? Darned if I know, I use 3.0 DR) Would have Fire Resistance 20, Spell Resistance 32, no need to eat, sleep or breathe Getting DR 1 temporarily: As the above (although the numbered values are one higher), and: Is immune to autofailure on a 1, electrical, cold and acid damage, Gets to use a domain Ability once, 1 mile vision, remote sensing (two of them), a portfolio (with all consequneces attached therein), 2 automatic actions per round, divine aura 10 feet, remote communication, teleport without error at will, plus 100 pounds, and one salient divine ability. This clearly is a great deal of stuff. To cast a 12th level Spell, you'd need to be 29th level. I suppose that DR 0 might be fair, but at epic level, the "break through immunities" feat might make this much less of a "I win" spell--the immunities treated as resistance 100, or something? Not that it matters too much, anyone with any ability is going to try to dispell that spell. To be fair, the spell would probably be 1/round per 5 caster levels. DR 1: I doubt that's fair with magic spells. It would be at least 15th level (Caster Level Minimum 41st)
Oakspar77777 10-08-06, 08:16 PM	First, if you are going to take this model, you need to drop the epic feats by 1LV between each. Second, you need to drop "Epic Spells." One or the other, not both. Of course, if this is something that appeals to you, it is likely due to previous dissatisfaction with the current system. Third, you need to make sure the spells are BALANCED by the SPLV, NOT the caster's level. The 4LV slowdown to new spells is to balance the drop in BAB progression (and the shift from BAB to Epic Bonus). This means no "my 12th level spell is balance because my caster is 29th level." You 12th level spell will be balanced when it is only slightly better than a LV11, which is slightly better than a LV10, which is slightly better than a LV9. Fourth, you need to balance your spells from SPLV 7 up. This is because LV 9 spells (and some LV 8) are artificially powerful from a normal progression, because they are seen as the end of a progression, not as cogs in a larger machine. You might also want to re-evaluate some normal spells in light of an extended progression (reducing their power to fit). So, what should it do? First, you should continue to spell/day progressions for lower spells at every other level. Thus, while a Cleric gets a new SPLV at LV21, 25, 29, etc, and a new spell of his lowest SPLV that is not yet at 5 spells, at every "inbetween" (LV23, 27, 31, etc), the Cleric should get the second spell of the highest level as well as the third of the SPLV right below that. Second, spells known. No spells known should be granted non-spontaneous casters. Wizards should still get their 2 Spells per level, but they should be 9th or lower (allowing them to thicken their spellbooks without becoming broken). Clerics and Druids should recieve no new spells known. All of these casters should be able to research new spells as needed (limiting the power swing by treasure, and much more importantly by time). Spontaneous casters should get 1 new spell with each new spell level. Of course, he can always use feats to gain new spells of anything less than his highest SPLV. NOTE: this means that all this new power in spell power is limited in flexability (encouraging metamagic options on previously balanced spells, rather than having tons of new spells to try to balance). Third, remember that even level spells tend to be buff, utility, and the like while odd level spells tend to be your blasting and movement.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-09-06, 01:43 AM	Okay, the four level gap is covered; great minds think alike:cool: The hardest things to properly balance are the 'first' spells of an ability. Teleport, for example. is much more than any logisitical spell below it (same applies to plane shift, fireball, and fly) Its much easier to come up with "Big Fireball", "Accurate Teleport" and Summon Monster X then "Limited Immortality", and "Limited wish" Personally, the spells I'd remove would be: Wish Series Mordy's Disjunction Miracle Time Stop (or reduce the power of it) Meteor Shower. The Wish series--Wish either becomes highly bounded (a well established upper limit is built), or its removed. As it stands, with a 5k XP cost, Wish is the spell no one will ever cast, even against the Tarrasque. Miracle is similar reasoning, and Mordenkainen's Disjunction is just the mass nuke spell. But I settle for the idea of trying to turn down the power of these spells; MkDj will not autowin against epics, and Wish/Miracle is not the final answer to most fights. I'm aiming for "Epic spells should be cool, but not completely dominating at their level" I don't deny that its a tall order, but I think this thread has produced some fantastic results so far, and I'd really like to keep it alive.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-09-06, 02:15 AM	Spell List so Far: 10th Level Magic Spells: Fantastic Freeze: Area of Cold does intense cold damage over time Troll Slayer: A creatures regeneration is reduced to fast healing. Summon Monster X: The next step past IX Summon Nature's Ally X: The next ally past IX, probably involves legendary animals. Ruin: Deals non-aligned damage. Gilette's Divination Denial: Stops most divinations. Planeswalk: You can travel between planes at will. Awesome Dispel: Like Dispel Magic, except it can go up to +40 Limited Immortality: You are immune to all death effects, and fight until -100% Max Hp. Pocket Dimension: You create a small pocket of reality. Utterdeath: Victim of Utterdeath can't be raised by non-epic spells, including Wish. Gates of Heaven/Hell/Abyss: get the summoning ability of a Solar/Pit Fiend/Balor. Death Image: Creates an duplicate, like mirror of opposition. Shadow of Heart: You stash your heart with a shadow duplicate, you can't die without your heart. Protection from Mortal Magic: You temporarily become immune to 1-9th spells. Bestow Vicious Curse: The equivilant of using Wish to curse someone, W/o XP cost. Remove Vicious Curse: Removes BVC, and can remove lesser curses as well. True Dominate: As the Psionic 8th level power. Temporal Stability: Immediate resist Temporal manipulation. Modimorph: You get an ability from a creature, for a period of days. Coerced Ressurection: You can raise someone against their will. Greater Heal: Recovers 4d6 HP/Caster Level. Greater Harm: As greater heal, with a negative sign. Improved Time Stop: Can target opponents with spells. Temporal Advantage*: a Field accelerates allies and slows enemies. Extreme Slow*: An enemy can only make a partial action every other turn. Curse of Demigorgon: Victim gains another head, and has a 50% chance of taking over. Aura Shift: You perfectly conceal your aligned aura with one of your choice. Lightning Pulse: Victim is hit repeatedly with electricity; must make multiple saves or be stunned. Reave Soul: Death effect attempts to break through prevention. Extreme Growth: Target grows several size categories. Mind Tap: can quietly gain knowledge without the victims knowledge. Temporal Inquiry: You gain full knowledge of an item's past, and likely future. Lesser Damage Shield: Gain damage reduction 10/-, can resist 5 times caster level. Awesome Planar Binding: Bind 32 HD of summonings to your will. Awesome Planar Ally: Summons 32 HD of summonlings to help you. Gravity Manipulation: Very versatile gravity control. Dragon Ally: Summon a dragon to help you. Massive Missile: Calls forth massive force energy to enemies. 11th Level Magic Spells: Cosmic Banishment: Send your opponent to the cold space beyond the multiverse. Greater Wish: Still more powerful Version of Wish. 12th Level Magic Spells Thrall: As the 9th level Psionic Power. Karsus' Avatar: Get Divine Rank Zero. As we go along, I guess I can update this page. *Spells marked with an Asterik aren't referred to by this name; indeed, the poster asked for one. This is just my attempt to name them
CantripN 10-09-06, 03:23 AM	Getting DR 0 temporarily: Immune to polymorphing, energy drain, ability drain, mind altering effects, gains DR 35/+4 (This goes to 35/Epic? Darned if I know, I use 3.0 DR) Would have Fire Resistance 20, Spell Resistance 32, no need to eat, sleep or breathe Actually, DR 0 (Medium size, Biped) will grant: 60" base speed, Deflection Bonus to AC equal to CHA bonus, Immunities: (Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Mind-Affecting Effects), DR 10/Epic, Fire Resistance 5, Spell Resistance 32, Immortality. If it's Duration 24 hours, then it's fine as a 12th level spell... That way a spellcaster can stay immortal while losing a spell slot a day. I think it's okay for Clerics to have at 10th level, and Druids at 11th...
wackywizjr 10-09-06, 10:08 AM	An expanded version of the spell damage cap tables. Spell-------Arcane Max Damage-----------Divine Max Damage Level------Single--------Multiple-----------Single------Multiple -----------Target-------Target------------Target-----Target 1st---------5------------------------------1----------- 2nd--------10-----------5-----------------5----------1 3rd---------10----------10----------------10---------5 4th---------15----------10----------------10---------10 5th---------15----------15----------------15---------10 6th---------20----------15----------------15---------15 7th---------20----------20----------------20---------15 8th---------25----------20----------------20---------20 9th---------25----------25----------------25---------20 10th-------30-----------25----------------25---------25 11th-------30-----------30----------------30---------25 12th-------35-----------30----------------30---------30 13th-------35-----------35----------------35---------30 14th-------40-----------35----------------35---------35 15th-------40-----------40----------------40---------35 16th-------45-----------40----------------40---------40 17th-------45-----------45----------------45---------40 18th-------50-----------45----------------45---------45 19th-------50-----------50----------------50---------45 20th-------55-----------50----------------50---------50 By the way this makes the epic spell Hellball a 15th level spell without the backlash damage...
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-09-06, 10:51 AM	Actually, DR 0 (Medium size, Biped) will grant: 60" base speed, Deflection Bonus to AC equal to CHA bonus, Immunities: (Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Mind-Affecting Effects), DR 10/Epic, Fire Resistance 5, Spell Resistance 32, Immortality. If it's Duration 24 hours, then it's fine as a 12th level spell... That way a spellcaster can stay immortal while losing a spell slot a day. I think it's okay for Clerics to have at 10th level, and Druids at 11th... Only way this is fair below 12th level is to have a general rule saying that epic spells are powerful enough to beat through immunities with a considerable penalty. You've got a speed doubling, AC buff (which can increase with the CHA stat), four outright immunities (very powerful benefit), resistance to fire, Spell Resistance 32. That's a lot. In particular, the four immunities make this too good below 12th level. Just my two coppers.
Mysticaloctopus 10-09-06, 03:17 PM	We don't really need to have extra spell levels above 9th, as any Epic spell has the long time and DC to create, meaning you can't have many epic spells, and then to cast there is the problem of meeting the DC, and then Backlash. Yes, vengeful gaze of god does 305d6 damage, but to create a spell with 200d6 backlash you must be level 100 yourself! Epic spells aren't meant to be "classified" as normal spells; they're epic, incredibly powerful, beyond the ken of normal humans!
wackywizjr 10-09-06, 10:50 PM	Then you can use the Epic spells I personally think that if a spell caster has to take backlash damage to use an Epic Spell then a fighter should take backlash damage every time he hits with an Epic Sword. So far the Epic book looks like it penalize spell casters for progressing while other classes are left alone. Spell casters have to take feats to get more spells. Fighters don't have to take feats to fight better. Spell Casters get backlashes and other bad effects from casting epic spells. Fighters don't get backlash damage from wielding epic swords. Spell Casters have caps on damage from their spells. Fighters don't have damage caps any epic sword they can afford can be made to deliver as much damage as possible. The Epic Level Handbook is not well conceived or thought out, a spell casters progression should have slowed not crashed down around their ears. Look at what the caster now gets instead of extra spells or more powerful spells. He learns to fight like a fighter except he doesn't get any more weapon or armor choices or a faster hit point progression and the fighter will always be better at fighting than he is he will never catch up. If you take it to the extreme it becomes ridicules. At 200th level the fighter could have 2000 hp (max rolls only) the mage has 800 with max rolls. The baddest spell in the book does 305d6 (max damage is 1830 no death for the fighter here unless he fails his massive damage save) but the caster takes 200d6 of backlash (1200 points max damage, Caster may well get killed by his own spell while his target survives).
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-10-06, 01:08 PM	Then you can use the Epic spells I personally think that if a spell caster has to take backlash damage to use an Epic Spell then a fighter should take backlash damage every time he hits with an Epic Sword. So far the Epic book looks like it penalize spell casters for progressing while other classes are left alone. Spell casters have to take feats to get more spells. Fighters don't have to take feats to fight better. Spell Casters get backlashes and other bad effects from casting epic spells. Fighters don't get backlash damage from wielding epic swords. Spell Casters have caps on damage from their spells. Fighters don't have damage caps any epic sword they can afford can be made to deliver as much damage as possible. The Epic Level Handbook is not well conceived or thought out, a spell casters progression should have slowed not crashed down around their ears. Look at what the caster now gets instead of extra spells or more powerful spells. He learns to fight like a fighter except he doesn't get any more weapon or armor choices or a faster hit point progression and the fighter will always be better at fighting than he is he will never catch up. If you take it to the extreme it becomes ridicules. At 200th level the fighter could have 2000 hp (max rolls only) the mage has 800 with max rolls. The baddest spell in the book does 305d6 (max damage is 1830 no death for the fighter here unless he fails his massive damage save) but the caster takes 200d6 of backlash (1200 points max damage, Caster may well get killed by his own spell while his target survives). Epic spellcasting done by RAW is unhinged; CREATING new spells becomes XP intensive. A fighter most certainly doesn't blow XP getting new gear or increasing his power; at this point, mage classes ALWAYS do. The logical counter is that Epic level mages are much more capable than their melee based counterparts; so my proposal is a compromise--get rid of huge amounts of XP burn, AND unlimited power with Epic Spells. I believe that slowing down the rate of getting higher level spell slots makes this balance work. Wackywiz' example is a bit off; I find it very likely that a lv 200 is probably going to have around 50 to 70 Con (Their Con bonus HP will greatly exceed their base HP, even if they get max rolls) We'll call it 50 just for example: Wiz with 2.5 Average, and +20 Con Modifier will have 500 + 4,000 HP =4,500 HP Fighter with 5.5 Average, and + 20 Con modifer will have 1,050 + 4,000 HP = 5,050 HP. At this point, its the idea of backlash damage that's lunatic. Suppose that the Wizard has decided to take 400d6 in backlash damage, to raise the saving throw of a save or die spell by 200. Or decide that you'd like to drain 50 levels from an opponent (which would be decisive, a 150 can't take a 200). Not cool. Dealing actual damage becomes a loser strategy at this point; better to deal 30d6 Con Drain. While I believe that reaching 200 is insane (I apologize in advance to all Dragonball Z fans out there), even 200s should have limits as to what they can and can not do--the infamous DC 500 check to redeem Asmodeus by talking to him looms large. The Epic system is designed to be unlimited; therefore, it's an openly built exploit. So fix it!