Post/Author/DateTime	Post
akridian 02-28-05, 09:36 AM	i'm going to be starting a 1st level sorcerer and am wondering what spells i should pick and why. i only get a couple spells to know so i want to make the best of them. i've considered color spray since it is a great low level spell, but once i get into the higher levels it pretty much becomes useless. the same with charm person. i know i will eventually take magic missile. what mage doesn't :) i'm also thinking maybe identify but am really not sure. any thoughts and why? *edit* i will be becoming a dragon desciple. i'm kinda thinking along the lines of a battle mage so shield and mage armor come to mind.
Submatrix 02-28-05, 09:53 AM	I wouldn't bother with identify, it's not a spell you need "on demand," just carry around a scroll or two of it if you ever think you're going to need to identify something in the field. As for color spray, just remember that (as long as you're playing 3.5) sorcerers have the ability to "swap" out spells starting at 4th level. You can only swap 1 spell that is 2 spell levels lower than what you can cast once every 2 levels. So at 4th level you can swap a 0 for a 0, at 6th level you can swap a 0 for a 0 OR a 1st for a 1st, at 8th level you can swap a 0 for a 0, a 1st for a 1st, OR a 2nd for a 2nd, etc. So at least when color spray does become useless you can swap it for something more practical. From my experiences with sorcerers its always best to take an offensive spell as your first spell, a utility/defenisive spell for your second spell, and then another offensive for your 3rd, after that its pretty much up to the player to "flesh out" their spell list. Magic missile is usually always a must for sorcerers. It's a guareteed hit and since sorcerers can cast so many spells a day, it's best to pick spells that can be used over and over and still be useful. Another favorite of our group is ray of enfeeblement. A ranged touch attack that does 1d6+1 strength damage at first level with no option for a saving throw is pretty strong. A sorcerer who tosses out a couple of those can pretty much cripple most low level monsters. And if you have a DM who likes to sick his monsters on spell casters, shield and mage armor are always great choices also.
Vatras 02-28-05, 10:00 AM	You are allowed to switch out spells at higher levels (PHB 54), starting at 4th. So you can take spells, which become useless later on, as you need not retain them. Good spells to take at 1st level are Sleep, Charm Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person and Truestrike. Our Sorcerer (25th) has in his 1st level slots Comprehend Languages, Identify, Magic Missile, True Strike and one I dont remember, as he is never using it. There are also the splatbooks to consider for spells, if your DM allows for that. In the Complete Arcane are e.g. Fist of Stone and Lesser Orb of Acid, which are good at low levels (the fist grants you a single attack at +3 for 1d6+1 for 10 rounds; or more depending on your basic STR score; at 1st or 2nd level its acceptable to wade into melee).
akridian 02-28-05, 10:13 AM	As for color spray, just remember that (as long as you're playing 3.5) sorcerers have the ability to "swap" out spells starting at 4th level. You can only swap 1 spell that is 2 spell levels lower than what you can cast once every 2 levels. So at 4th level you can swap a 0 for a 0, at 6th level you can swap a 0 for a 0 OR a 1st for a 1st, at 8th level you can swap a 0 for a 0, a 1st for a 1st, OR a 2nd for a 2nd, etc. So at least when color spray does become useless you can swap it for something more practical. we are playing 3.5 but unfortunetly i still only have a 3.0 players handbook so i didn't know you could "swap" out spells. that's great news. thanks for the input :)
Santrilla 02-28-05, 12:50 PM	Sleep and Grease are greatly under-rated spells, IMO. Sleep lets you make swift work of that band of goblins- simply cast, then coup de grace until your arm hurts. Sadly, sleep is limited by hit dice. Color Spray is a tasty alternative, although it does have a smaller area and lesser effects. Grease only sends your enemies prone, but is much less limited. Magic Missile is always, always a must. You'd be a fool not to take it. If you're planning on being a 'combat sorcerer' - spending at least _some_ time in the fray - then the touch spells are the way to go; shocking grasp, chill touch, etc. Add a shot of true strike and you're laughing. And don't neglect mage armor or shield to help you to stay alive. At level 2, it's worth considering the oft-ignored transmutation school- animate rope, expeditious retreat, feather fall and enlarge person will make you a lot of friends and get you out of a lot of sticky situations.
Calabacin 02-28-05, 01:20 PM	It really depends on what your campaign is like and what classes the rest of the players are. in my campaign I would definitively get Sleep and Ray of enfeeblement. Sleep will save us from a lot of trouble (and can be swapped afterwards) and ray of enfeeblement will lessen damage to our group, that way I can help my adventure mates in combat. About the next spell, maybe magic missile or maybe charm person, again depending on the campaign. In the future, do get charm monster, it's a spell any proper sorcerer should have. I would absolutely NOT get identify. Use scrolls instead, or have someone identify for you. Your spell selection is small, try to get spells you can use all the time in any ocassion. In the long term, any spell that you will use not so often, or that could be just as useful being in a wand or scroll, shouldn't be chosen. Best regards Calabacin (ñ)
PJSlavner 02-28-05, 01:28 PM	Grease can be used to not only send your enemies prone, although making them prone does give your allies more chances at attacks of opportunity. My wizard has messed up opposing strong combatants by disarming them with grease, and also made opposing spellcasters drop wands. For my wizard it is the best first level spell, and the one my DM grumbles at the most. Of course, my wizard is a conjurer with evocation school banned, so I cannot speak for magic missile. I believe, however, that magic missile is a poor choice at first level when you only have one missile. I would wait until you have more missiles to choose magic missile. One thing to consider about sleep is that it takes a full round to cast in 3.5, so make sure the enemy cannot close to strike or get ranged attacks off against you. Color spray does not get useless at higher levels. It does not have the absolute hit die limitation that sleep has, so it still stuns any creatures that fail the save for one round, which causes them to drop whatever they are holding. My wizard is still using it effectively at level 8. I agree that Ray of Enfeeblement is a good choice. Mage armor is a good choice, especially if you have a monk or other unarmored character in the party.
Santrilla 02-28-05, 01:36 PM	Grease can be used to not only send your enemies prone, although making them prone does give your allies more chances at attacks of opportunity. My wizard has messed up opposing strong combatants by disarming them with grease, and also made opposing spellcasters drop wands. For my wizard it is the best first level spell, and the one my DM grumbles at the most. Heh, sorry. I'd totally forgotten grease's other uses. These days I play more Neverwinter Nights than D&D, and the two are similar yet different in so many ways. Of course, my wizard is a conjurer with evocation school banned, so I cannot speak for magic missile. I believe, however, that magic missile is a poor choice at first level when you only have one missile. I would wait until you have more missiles to choose magic missile. Good point, but it's still a valuable spell in that it never misses (except against those with a magical Shield.) Tiny, low-HP, high-AC enemies will hate you for this spell, even with only one missile. Mage armor is a good choice, especially if you have a monk or other unarmored character in the party. And if not, go for shield instead. It's far superior in defensive capabilites but is self-targetted.
ehrin 02-28-05, 08:24 PM	Lots of good advice already... Magic Missile is a must Ray of enfeeblement is a nice one already mentioned. Chill touch, etc. are nice (use the touch attacks to your advantage). One so far overlooked, and VERY dependent on your play style, is Silent Image... It can be extremely good, or extremely poor...
bloodmoon138 02-28-05, 08:48 PM	orb of lesser acid does 1d8/every 2 lvls up... and because it is acid and the DM guide says that magic acid spells count as 1 extra round of dmg.... it does 1d8 then next round... (becuase of acid) deals an additional 1d6... almost as good as a greatsword... even better with higher lvls... the only downside is it is 3.5 and it is in the COMPLETE ARCANE not in the phb... so check with ur DM for stuff to get the spell... buy it then copy page then returen book to store... works out great...! but make sure u have ur DM's approvale... also if u get the orb of lesser fire it does 1d8/2 lvls up plus becuase of fire they have a chance of catching on fire... 2 wonderful spells... also i am a warforged lvl 1 sorcer so i got repair minor dmg... (also in complete arcan) and it heals constructs. also can get 20 con give +5 hp and then giving u 9 also if u get the feat toughness u can get +3 hp giving u 12 hp for a lvl 1 sorcerr- warforged are on p190 of MM 3 (also works with the 3.0 setting u mentioned before...) u also get composite plating wchich give +2 armour and u cannot wear armour because of race(warforged) and becuase of class(sorcerr)- only downside is taht u get 5% arcane spell failure chance so u only fail if u roll a 1...(with a d20) but that happens even less(for me) than when u roll a 20- (with a d20) makes a great charicter... another downside is -2 cha------- major downside... but u can put a 18 on that wchich gives u 16 cha... wchich is better than most of the premade charicters that WIZARDS OF THE COAST make for u anyway... immidiate power... great charicter. also u get +2 str so u can atk people so that when ur out of spells u can still be useful to ur party... makes a wonderful charicter -- --bloodmoon138
Talchar 02-28-05, 08:49 PM	Hypnotism, IMO one of the best 1st level spells around. Sure in combat, it well...sucks, but it can be used in combat. Out of combat, it's the greatest spell since... Slice Bread 2.0. You get to shift an NPC attitude by 2 levels, inpart a suggestion, and the NPC does not even remember you casting the spell. Plus it one of the few spells that impart a spell DC penalty on the target. Not all spells have to be combat related. Hypnotism & a Sorcerers CHA, just seem to fit.
bloodmoon138 02-28-05, 08:52 PM	orb of lesser acid does 1d8/every 2 lvls up... and because it is acid and the DM guide says that magic acid spells count as 1 extra round of dmg.... it does 1d8 then next round... (becuase of acid) deals an additional 1d6... almost as good as a greatsword... even better with higher lvls... the only downside is it is 3.5 and it is in the COMPLETE ARCANE not in the phb... so check with ur DM for stuff to get the spell... buy it then copy page then returen book to store... works out great...! but make sure u have ur DM's approvale... also if u get the orb of lesser fire it does 1d8/2 lvls up plus becuase of fire they have a chance of catching on fire... 2 wonderful spells... also i am a warforged lvl 1 sorcer so i got repair minor dmg... (also in complete arcan) and it heals constructs. also can get 20 con give +5 hp and then giving u 9 also if u get the feat toughness u can get +3 hp giving u 12 hp for a lvl 1 sorcerr- warforged are on p190 of MM 3 (also works with the 3.0 setting u mentioned before...) u also get composite plating wchich give +2 armour and u cannot wear armour because of race(warforged) and becuase of class(sorcerr)- only downside is taht u get 5% arcane spell failure chance so u only fail if u roll a 1...(with a d20) but that happens even less(for me) than when u roll a 20- (with a d20) makes a great charicter... another downside is -2 cha------- major downside... but u can put a 18 on that wchich gives u 16 cha... wchich is better than most of the premade charicters that WIZARDS OF THE COAST make for u anyway... immidiate power... great charicter. also u get +2 str so u can atk people so that when ur out of spells u can still be useful to ur party... makes a wonderful charicter -- --bloodmoon138
Talchar 02-28-05, 09:16 PM	orb of lesser acid does 1d8/every 2 lvls up... and because it is acid and the DM guide says that magic acid spells count as 1 extra round of dmg.... it does 1d8 then next round... (becuase of acid) deals an additional 1d6... almost as good as a greatsword... even better with higher lvls... the only downside is it is 3.5 and it is in the COMPLETE ARCANE not in the phb... so check with ur DM for stuff to get the spell... buy it then copy page then returen book to store... works out great...! but make sure u have ur DM's approvale... also if u get the orb of lesser fire it does 1d8/2 lvls up plus becuase of fire they have a chance of catching on fire... 2 wonderful spells... also i am a warforged lvl 1 sorcer so i got repair minor dmg... (also in complete arcan) and it heals constructs. also can get 20 con give +5 hp and then giving u 9 also if u get the feat toughness u can get +3 hp giving u 12 hp for a lvl 1 sorcerr- warforged are on p190 of MM 3 (also works with the 3.0 setting u mentioned before...) u also get composite plating wchich give +2 armour and u cannot wear armour because of race(warforged) and becuase of class(sorcerr)- only downside is taht u get 5% arcane spell failure chance so u only fail if u roll a 1...(with a d20) but that happens even less(for me) than when u roll a 20- (with a d20) makes a great charicter... another downside is -2 cha------- major downside... but u can put a 18 on that wchich gives u 16 cha... wchich is better than most of the premade charicters that WIZARDS OF THE COAST make for u anyway... immidiate power... great charicter. also u get +2 str so u can atk people so that when ur out of spells u can still be useful to ur party... makes a wonderful charicter -- --bloodmoon138 ???? Acid doing an extra 1d6 dmg? where? With respect to fire effect, only non-instant fire spells catch a target on fire. DMG pg 302
Nom 02-28-05, 10:03 PM	Take a step back: what sort of sorcerer are you? An evoker? A buffer? A diplomat? Each will imply different spell choices. Mechanically, you need to remember that you will only get 5 spells of each level (at most), and that you can only change 8 of them (if you even make 18th level). You don't want to budget too strongly on swapping spells. My principles of sorcerer spell selection: * Metamagic is your friend. Why pick 3 versions of a spell at different levels when you can pick one and metamagic it? More useful for evokers than for others, although Heighten works nicely on save-or-else spells (charm person, hold person, ...). * Pick spells for longevity and utility. Buff spells typically have durations based on caster level and no need for DCs. mage armour, enlarge person, and the level 2 ability boosters remain useful even as you increase in level. Certain characters will gain permanent ability boosters or the like, but you can always boost other characters if the need arises. * Avoid spells that are only cast 1/day or less frequently. identify is a nice spell, but you can buy it from a 3rd party for a mere 10gp (plus material cost), and rarely need it in a hurry. Pick spells that you expect to use lots. At first level, I generally avoid direct damage spells (such as magic missile). The amount of damage dealt is negligible compared to what a decent archer can deliver; just use a crossbow (or true strike). If you must take direct combat spells, take those that can swing a battle (such as sleep or ray of enfeeblement).
Ace-High 02-28-05, 10:25 PM	Well, I know I swapped out a spell or two, but as of now my 15th level sorc has: Mage Armor, Mount, Feather Fall, Shield, and Magic Missile. I definately recommend Magic Missile and Shield. You can't argue with a +4 shield bonus and it still comes in handy. She also single-handedly took out a Gelatinous Cube with Magic Missiles at 3rd level. Every single one of those spells has saved her life at least once, except Mount. Our party has a horse-obsessed fighter, and our horses kept dying. Well, better them than us, eh? :)
Greyman 02-28-05, 11:13 PM	And if not, go for shield instead. It's far superior in defensive capabilites but is self-targetted.Mage armor, though, has a far longer duration, one whole hour at level 1 as opposed to shield's 1 minute. That can be an important consideration at lower levels. Consider, though, using padded or leather armour, to gain a permanant +1 or +2 armour bonus, though this is at the cost of a 5% or 10% arcane spell failure chance (or even masterwork studded leather, if you can afford it, for +3 AC and 15% asf). Then select shield for the times when you really need a little extra stackable protection. Note that these armours have an armour check penalty of 0, so nonproficiency actually imposes no penalty at all. You just have to decide if the chance of ruining spells with somatic components is worth the armour bonus.
tafkamhokie 03-01-05, 09:50 PM	Every low-level sorcerer I have ever run has followed the following template: L1: Mage Armor, Color Spray L3: Magic Missile I choose mage armor over shield because they both provide +4 to AC, but Mage Armor lasts for multiple encounters, leaving all your other spell slots available for Color Spray spells. Also, Shield does not scale well at higher levels. A Shield spell that lasts 10 minutes is still probably only good for one (maybe two) encounters. A Mage Armor that lasts for 10 hours is good for an entire adventure. Heck, it only takes two of them to protect you for most of the day (even while sleeping). I choose Color Spray over Sleep because you cannot swap out a 1st level spell until 6th level, and Sleep stops being useful around 3rd level. Again, Color Spray is more scaleable...even at 20th level, you can still stun someone for 1 round, which is a HUGE advantage at any level. If not Color Spray, Grease would be my 2nd choice. I like the will save for Color Spray (low level opponents tend to have poor will saves) better than the Reflex save for Grease. Magic Missile is clearly a must-have, but I always wait until 3rd level to get it. At 1st level, you get a d4+1 damage. On average, you will not really be doing much more damage with a Magic Missile at 1st level than you could do with a light crossbow...and a crossbow does not cost one of your spell slots. At 3rd level, however, you are now doing 4-10 damage with a Magic Missile. That is pretty darned respectable, and much better than you will ever do with a light crossbow.
Nephlite 03-01-05, 10:09 PM	i'm going to be starting a 1st level sorcerer and am wondering what spells i should pick and why. i only get a couple spells to know so i want to make the best of them. i've considered color spray since it is a great low level spell, but once i get into the higher levels it pretty much becomes useless. the same with charm person. i know i will eventually take magic missile. what mage doesn't :) i'm also thinking maybe identify but am really not sure. any thoughts and why? *edit* i will be becoming a dragon desciple. i'm kinda thinking along the lines of a battle mage so shield and mage armor come to mind. In the Book of Exalted Deeds there are spells you could get: (note you don't have to be exalted to use them) Level 1 Lantern light: ranged touch attack that deals 1d6(Duration, 1 round/lv). You fire up to 1 ray per 2 caster levels, but no more than 1/round. Ray attack. In ordwr to cast must not have had sex in 24 hours lol Eyes of Aviral: +8 spot for subject level 2 Yoke of mercy: target deals only nonlethal damage (will negate) Energize Potion: turns a potion into a geneade that deals energy damage Others but you can't use level 3 spells till level 6.(so no need to tell) Just look at book :) Get a wand of Identify (wands are spell list require items do you automatically can cast since Identify is on your spell-list) MM is decent, but at level 4 get Melf's Acid arrow for when you face SR creatures. Melf's Acid arrow has no SR resistance, so it hurts them anyway.
The Mailman 03-01-05, 11:02 PM	One more plug for Silent Image. Its all-around versatility is hard to beat at low levels (unless your DM goes out of his/her way to restrict your use of it). A search of this board should come up with at least a couple threads on potential uses for even a lvl1 illusion.
hughman 03-03-05, 01:20 AM	You are allowed to switch out spells at higher levels (PHB 54), starting at 4th. So you can take spells, which become useless later on, as you need not retain them. OK, not seeing this anywhere else and it applies here. so no harm in asking, I guess. When you take a PrC (Daggerspell Mage for instance) and it says you only gain the arcane spell levels does that mean you don't get the Spell swap out option? Playing a Rogue/Sorc/Daggerspell Mage and after hitting about 5 Sorc want to jsut do Rogue/Daggerspell. Thanks Hughman
Talchar 03-03-05, 03:16 AM	OK, not seeing this anywhere else and it applies here. so no harm in asking, I guess. When you take a PrC (Daggerspell Mage for instance) and it says you only gain the arcane spell levels does that mean you don't get the Spell swap out option? Playing a Rogue/Sorc/Daggerspell Mage and after hitting about 5 Sorc want to jsut do Rogue/Daggerspell. Thanks Hughman My vote, yup you do not get the spell swap. The spell swap is a character class ability. When you go up in Daggerspell, you spell casting ability & spell knowlege goes up by one effective level, but you do not gain any other sorcerer ability. (so you familar does not gain abilities either)
Greyman 03-03-05, 03:45 AM	My vote would be to allow the swapout by considering it to be part and parcel of an increase in spellcasting level rather than a completely seperate class feature.