Post/Author/DateTime	Post
siegfried1 02-25-06, 02:08 AM	Hi, I have a question about balancing the game. As far as I see it pretty much each and every spell in the PHB that is viable for direct attacks on opponents (e.g. fireball) has spellresistance: yes apllying to it, meaning it doesn't work well against opponents with SR. This seems to be pretty much consistent with all descriptions. But when I do introduce spells from the complete arcane book, the picture changes drastically. Spell like arc of lightning does circumvent SR, only allowing a Save. The "worst" imbalancing spells for me are the "orb of ..." spells, which don't allow a save for the primary damage effect and don't worry about SR neither. This is even made more difficult by the "lesser" types being first level spells. I currently have a 10th level wizard in the party. If I give him access to "lesser orb of acid" (1st level spell) he can expend first level slots to kick ass with 5D8 damage spells which opponents can not save against or use SR against. He just has to hit with a ranged touch attack. I do think think this seriously imbalances the game and I guess I will house-rule that SR does apply, but I wanted to check if there is an error in the book or what others feel about this.
spectralphoenix 02-25-06, 02:21 AM	Compare it to Magic Missile. Magic Missile always hits for an average of 17.5 damage, while the orb deals 22.5 damage on average. Cover or firing into melee makes a big difference on those ranged attack rolls, so be sure to track any penalties the wizard has. Furthermore, energy resistance applies, which can take a big chunk out of your attack. Force damage isn't subject to resistance, and as an added benefit can target incorporeal or ethereal foes. So the short answer is, it depends on the opponent. If you fight a lot of monsters with low touch AC, high SR, and no energy resistance, the orb spells are probably your best option. Against other foes, the missiles are better. Lastly, keep in mind that at 10th level a fighter or rogue can probably dish out close to 22 damage per round as well, and he isn't using any spell slots at all. Edit: Reread the spell description. I think the 3.0 version had multiple orbs, however.
Mystyc 02-25-06, 02:21 AM	This thread shows up every week or so. Yes, orbs are strong spells. No, they don't really make a ton of sense (a nonmagical orb of force?). No, they are not particularly broken. That ranged attack roll is fairly important, as a wizard has poor BAB and probably hasn't taken Precise Shot. Creatures with good Reflex Saves probably also have halfway-decent Touch ACs, so the same subset of opponents are even likely to not get hurt compared to other DD spells. (And there's always a 5% miss chance anyway.) Edit: SP, you only need one attack roll for the whole spell. Otherwise, it would be bonkers with sneak attack dice. :(
runestar 02-25-06, 02:23 AM	Maybe creating monsters with some sort of elemental resistance? Not as viable for archmages with mastery of elements, but still viable at lower lvs. Or looks for ways to improve their touch ac, or give concealment etc...
spectralphoenix 02-25-06, 02:40 AM	Well, just paging through my MM, 1) Dread Wraith:CR 11, touch AC 25, incorporeal 2) Half Fiends: CR +2 resistant to acid, fire, cold, lightning 10 3)Young Adult Black Dragon: CR 9, immune to acid Delving a bit outside core... 4) Pun-Pun: CR 12, immune to everything
cwslyclgh 02-25-06, 02:19 PM	the orbs, both lesser and normal are not mechanicaly broken... although in many cases they do not make much sense (although I must say that the one you are specifically complaining about, lesser acid orb does make sense inn the context of the rules).
chitzk0i 02-25-06, 06:26 PM	Compare it to Magic Missile. Magic Missile always hits for an average of 17.5 damage, while the orb deals 22.5 damage on average. What caster level? With both at CL 10, you'd get that damage. But that's at tenth level. You'd be on the verge of having sixth level spells. Also, the lesser orbs are first level spells. Somebody with Improved Counterspell can counter it with a second-level spell.
spectralphoenix 02-25-06, 08:48 PM	The OP said the wizard was 10th level, so that's what I used. Regardless, the orb will do one more point of damage per die than the missile (on average.)
Merlion 02-25-06, 09:36 PM	It cant really be worse than having a 5th level "divine" spell that deals 15d6 to multiple oponents with half the damage unresistable. The spells are fine, as far as balance. The only problem I have with the Orbs (except for Acid Orb), and with Arc of Lightning and that fire one, are that they are labeled Conjurations and SR: No, and yet are energy spells which is inconsistant with how D&D handles such things, and begins to completely devalue the school of Evocation. They need to either fold Evocation into Conjuration (which I would have no problem with) or if they wish to keep Evocation, make and keep it distinct. But as far as basic balance, the Orbs are fine. If anything, we need more good damage spells, seeing as how direct damage generally sucks especially at high level.