| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Edward06-16-04, 12:56 AM | 2 items 1 command word Somebody asked me the other day wether you can use the same command word for multiple items and activate them all with a single standard action. You normally wouldn’t want this as you cant activate one and not the others but a quarterstaff +1flaming, +1 frost activating both at once would almost always be advantages. The question is, is it allowed and should it be allowed? Edward |
| strenoth06-16-04, 01:16 AM | no and no. the word alone does not activate the item, it's the word as part of a mental action focused on the item. that's why you don't runt he risk of activating magicla items by simply talkign about magical stuff aroudn them. |
| BlackSmith06-16-04, 03:07 AM | yes and yes. from mFAQ There’s nothing illogical about a flaming, frost, shock weapon (at least not within any framework that allows weapons to generate energy in the first place), and there’s no rule against such weapons (think of the weapon as having fiery, frosty, shocking flames). The character creating such a weapon decides how it can be activated. Most such weapons probably are made so that the wielders can activate all three powers simultaneously, or activate them one at a time, as desired. if i decide every item i posses will activate when i say "bags" then they all activate. word is not infused with only enough power to activate one item, no all items using the same "power up" word would start kicking in. and there is no mental things here. you ARE in risk to activate magical items by acident. from SRD Command Word : If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. problem is if you use the same command word for every item, how to activate only specific item without them all going on. and it is highly unlikely that found items are same worded as your old items. |
| Moonstonedragon06-16-04, 03:27 AM | I'd say no though, or everyone will be taping a bunch of wands together with one command word. Player: "BOOM, ok my 50 wands of lightning bolt go off at once, thats 50 saves dc 16" DM: ............................. |
| Edward06-16-04, 03:47 AM | Wands are spell trigger not command word. In a pinch you could activate only one of your items with the same command word by failing to poses the others at the time. Put them on the ground. Doesn’t work with my 2 headed weapon but I don’t need it to. Having the items in an extra dimensional space would probably prevent them from “hearing” the command word. I would however be a bit weary of testing such an assumption. (you need a command word activated item that wont damage the inside of your hewards if it dose activate). Edward Edit. Just realised the test has been done numerus times before buy those withe more guts than knowledge. Knowledge arcana 25-30 should answer the question. |
| BlackSmith06-16-04, 05:44 AM | picking up a items midle of comabt is not wise. if all the elemental abilities goes on with the same word, you can't restrict what elemental damage it does. crappy situtaion against golems if the lightning damage hastens it or fire heals it. |
| tarkin06-16-04, 10:50 AM | No and no. Blacksmith is entirely wrong. He is confusing multiple effects from a single item with multiple items. You can make all the powers on a single magical item use the same command word/standard action to activate. But you can not connect multiple items with the same command word and have them activate. And he is also wrong about mental activation. It does not take a standard Action to say a command word. Speaking is a Free Action. It takes a Standard Action to activate it mentally. He underlined the WRONG parts of his quotes. The Standard Action part is the important thing. Yes it does not take any special KNOWLEDGE, but it does take mental EFFORT. You can activate by accident only but that effort to leaves you mentally exhausted. It is like walking and suddenly walking up a hilll. You find yourself tired, perhaps before you even realize that you have climbed the hill. Saying a command word does NOTHING unless you exert the mental effort. |
| Seeker9506-16-04, 11:21 AM | The only way I would permit it is if the items were made together, with the intent that they are used together. This goes more to the flavor of an item, than to game mechanics. I would allow simultaneous activation of: Both ends of a quarterstaff A matching pair of sai's A set of called armor and shield I would not allow simultaneous activation of: Any two incongruous magic items Two separate function rings Essentially, the matching activation would have to fit in both flavor and function. All of this is a house rule, intended for game flavor. My initial answer to any such request is still going to be "no" until the requesting player explains why it is a good game-flavor idea. |
| klyre06-16-04, 11:25 AM | Originally posted by tarkin Saying a command word does NOTHING unless you exert the mental effort. Got a page number for where it says this? |
| BlackSmith06-16-04, 11:54 AM | Originally posted by tarkin And he is also wrong about mental activation. total rip from SRD Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word. The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue. The spells identify and analyze dweomer both reveal command words. underlines are mine. point the line where im wroong, do that or keep your ideas your own. i quote once more my favorite line Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. and yes you can activate all your magic items at once that are activated by the same command. or how does the item know just that one is wanted to activate? from your tone? it is not intelligent and it has no mental connection with the user so how the hell it knows when to activate? you focus on it? please. how it know YOU are thinking it? there was no mental connection, one way or other. no, if i say "baagerulle" everything keyed to that word goes off. like i quoted sages words earlier. next you are going to say that every use activated item needs separate round to be "used" to get them activated.:smirk: |
| Syneosis06-16-04, 12:22 PM | Originally posted by Edward ... The question is, is it allowed and should it be allowed? Don't see why not. PHB3.5 p.142: "Spell Trigger, Command Word, or Use-Activated Items: Activating any of these kinds of items does not require concentration.." DMG3.5 p.213: "Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.." ; "A command word is the key to the item's lock, as it were. It can be a real word such as 'Vibrant', 'Square', or 'Horse', but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation." Unless, there is some errata..? |
| Dunbar06-16-04, 12:58 PM | There is a bit of a contradiction in the rules, however, provided by this line: Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. So on the one hand, merely speaking the command word while in possession of an item will activate it. On the other hand, activating a command word item takes a standard action. So say I'm holding two different magical items, one activated by the word ham, the other by the word cheese. Now I tell my friend "I'd love a ham and cheese sandwich," what happens? I cannot activate both items in one round. So do I get as far as "I'd love a ham" then stop for a moment, stupified, as the magical item activates, then several seconds later finish with "and cheese....sandwich" again having to pause for a moment as the magic courses through me or something? I think this is the best rationalization. However, it still leaves the question of what happens if they both use the same command word. Can I activate them both with one standard action? If so, that seems too powerful. However, if they do not activate all at once what happens? Since it takes a standard action to activate them, yet speaking the word activates them whether I want them to or not, do they wait in queue? So I say the command word, then one item activates, then the next round my standard action is used up as the other item activates? If so, what happens if I drop the item before it activates? All in all, the description seems contradictory. On the one hand, all you have to do is say the word and the item activates. On the other hand, it takes a standard action, which implies some kind of effort on the part of the speaker (though not too much as it doesn't provoke an AoO). As an aside, tarkin, I love how you tell Blacksmith that he is utterly wrong for ignoring one part of the rules he quotes, then you go on to tell us all how it works by looking solely at another part of the rules and ignoring what he has underlined. Thanks for letting us all know what part of the rules to obey, and what part to ignore...must have missed the part of the DMG that points that out. ;) |
| Faragdar the Wise06-16-04, 01:22 PM | Even if you don't agree with tarkin's reasoning, you folks on the other side of the argument are stretching the statement about accidental activation way too far. You can't get around the fact that a command word activated magic item requires a standard action to activate. You can't activate two command word activated magic items with a single standard action--it takes two standard actions. Not only is that technically according to the rules, it would be abusive to allow a character (PC or NPC) to activate a whole suite of items with a single action. The FAQ item about multiple effects on a single item is not applicable to this argument because it is about a single item. Don't bother trying to rationalize it. That's just the way magic works in the game. That's the way it should work to keep things fair. You can't benefit from two magic potions in the same round by trying to chug them simultaneously, either. (That one I've actually had players try.) |
| Keebler06-16-04, 06:19 PM | I really hate the wording on this rule. They completly contradict themselves by saying that you need to only speak the word for your item to activate, then they say that you need a special action to activate your item. I would rule that you may activate an item as a free action, but only 1 item per round. I would also rule that you may activate a weapon's special abilities in any combination by one word. |
| bitnine06-16-04, 06:53 PM | So... Since speaking is a free action that can be done even when its not your turn, would y'all allow people to activate magic items likewise out-of-sequence by stating the word? Or, as a more general case of something mentioned above, how about it someone has already taken their standard action for the round who speaks a command word, do they get to activate their magic items as a free action? |
| Seeker9506-16-04, 07:11 PM | Originally posted by bitnine would y'all allow people to activate magic items likewise out-of-sequence by stating the word?The ones advocating a system of abuse and munchkinizing would say "yes". Those who recognize the risk of abuse by permitting what seems "logical" and "harmless" would say "no". With the exception of the conditions I stated above (regarding items psecifically made to allow simultaneous activation) my answer is "no". |
| Edward06-16-04, 07:12 PM | I see what you mean. About the ability to activate a sweat of magic items at the same time. If somebody did make a ring of enlarge self 2/day command word activated “dog” bracers of tensers transformation 2/day command word activated “dog”, a ring of mage armour 2/day command word activated “dog”, a perephet of false life 2/day command word activated “dog” and a cloak of blur 2/day command word activated “dog”. As I can see no reason he would be unable to make. What happens when he says the word dog? Allowing that much buff to go up that fast is I assume exactly what you wanted to stop. Would you disallow the creating of the items? If so on what prevents the character from doing it. I do play characters that would make 5 minor items with the same command word just to see what would happen if he tried it. (curious both in character and out). Then there is the problem of the multi purpose ring of mage armour, shield, enlarge person and expeditious retreat. Command word activated with only one command word. The line abut the weapon with multiple elements would seem to imply that you could but it is still a very nasty item for a mere 11000gp usable as often as you speak the command word (or 5/day depending on the gm. If the GM allows it. I wouldn’t). Edward |
| BW022206-16-04, 10:09 PM | Folks, Speaking is not necessarily a free action. You have about six seconds in a round and the DM can limit how much information someone can speak. A command word is a standard action. No one says the command word is one sylable. It can be a phrase or a "Supercalifragisticexpealadotious". It must also be spoken clearly, thus eliminating a quick-speaking. As to having multiple power keyed to the same command word, you really have to ask if that means that you can activate multiple effects at the same time and if so, how much more powerful (and costly) that makes the item. The only normal way of activating multiple spells effects in a round is quicken spell and this limits it two a maximum of two spells per round. I'd allow it, but one effect needs to be priced at four levels higher and it needs to be priced accordingly. Quicken spell would also need to be a prerequisite for construction. Thanks, Brett |
| [GSV] Kirstar06-17-04, 03:57 AM | use comon sence guys. ok so the strapping of 50 wand together wouldnt work. but what about 50 rods? we say that 1 item may be activated for free for every action. so move and attack and activate 2 items. want to activate another use an action. as to the question about a sword with fire cold & electricity effects...... if i was making the item I would allow the user to turn the effecfts on or off 1 by 1 or all at once. There are only 7 combinations so 7 command words. also to those who are talking about multiple items being activated by the same command word. are you saying that if an enemy knew your command words they could activate your items remotely using your valuable charges etc |
| BlackSmith06-17-04, 07:23 AM | Originally posted by Edward I see what you mean. About the ability to activate a sweat of magic items at the same time. If somebody did make a ring of enlarge self 2/day command word activated “dog” bracers of tensers transformation 2/day command word activated “dog”, a ring of mage armour 2/day command word activated “dog”, a perephet of false life 2/day command word activated “dog” and a cloak of blur 2/day command word activated “dog”. As I can see no reason he would be unable to make. What happens when he says the word dog? all the items goes on. to bad if just wanted to tell his friend "look that dog is eating a guard!" also you people don't see the downside of having all going on with one word (Guanamolemolemolemoleqiantmolemolimolim oli). the above character would be waisiting lots of item uses per day against a bunch of ogres. wihout them he might not make it, but with then it is a overkill. a choker abushing him later the same day makes him a acward sitution. should he use his only left "superboost" to get over that sitution he can't realy on it when the dragon swoops on him. remember now. all the items that are keyed to the same word goes off. you can't keep them back or take only part forward. sure it is nice to have mage armor, mirror image, blur and invisibility go on the same word but little that helps against true seeing. if you can find a line that says othervise (each one needs separate action) please post the page or SRDs files name to back it up, because i would realy to like see them. othervise we have been playing this game for years wroong. Also i woul REALY to like to see the wording that clears up then the paradox that comes when only one item should go one but how the item knows to go on. As pointed out Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. |
| Seeker9506-17-04, 09:54 AM | Originally posted by BlackSmith if you can find a line that says othervise (each one needs separate action) please post the page or SRDs files name to back it up, because i would realy to like see them.From the 3.5 DMG page 213: Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description says otherwise. -emphasis addedSingular. Sure, you can argue it is just semantics, but isn't that what this conversation has become? |
| Dunbar06-17-04, 03:15 PM | I think the designers had 2 ideas in mind. On the one hand, they wanted command-word activated items to activate whenever the word is said. That leads to entertaining situations like magical items going off in the middle of conversation. Especially fun with a character who doesn't know what the command word is, or even that the item in his possession is magical. On the other hand, activating multiple items with a single command word instantly is too powerful. Thus the standard action requried to activate a single item. But the question still remains then: what happens when a character with 2 items keyed to the same command word speaks that word? Well, we know for a fact that at least one of them will activate. It's spelled out in black and white that just by speaking the word the possessor activates the item. We also know that activation of a single item takes a standard action. Therefore, they cannot both be activated the round the character speaks. We are left with 2 possibilities: 1. Only one of the items randomly activates. If the DM is nice, he may allow the PC to choose which item provided he was at least thinking about the one he wanted to activate (i.e. didn't just accidentally say the command word). However, randomly determining which one activates seems most in line with the RAW. 2. Both items activate in sequence. He spoke the command word, so the items must activate according to the rules. However, it takes a standard action to activate each one, so the activate in successive rounds. Which activates in what round should be determined randomly. This, of course, robs the PC of his standard action each round until all the items have gone off. Both possibilities seem to fit within the RAW, as there is no hard and fast rule governing this scenario. |
| meabolex06-17-04, 03:37 PM | Or there's another possiblity. If you speak the command word without the intent of activating the item, the item activates instantly. If you speak the command word with the intent of activating the item, the item won't activate unless you spend a standard action to do so. You could argue that magic is a barely controllable and fairly unpredictable force. While the command word items do respond correctly (as a standard action) to a properly spoken and thoughtout command word, sometimes a passing word in conversation accidentally activates the item. Note this use is only accidental uses -- and only the wielder of the command word item can ever accidentally activate an item. |
| Krelios06-17-04, 03:38 PM | If somebody did make a ring of enlarge self 2/day command word activated “dog” bracers of tensers transformation 2/day command word activated “dog”, a ring of mage armour 2/day command word activated “dog”, a perephet of false life 2/day command word activated “dog” and a cloak of blur 2/day command word activated “dog”. As I can see no reason he would be unable to make. What happens when he says the word dog? Allowing that much buff to go up that fast is I assume exactly what you wanted to stop. This is exactly the problem that contradictory rules have provided for us. Obviously, a DM isn't going to want a player to have a whole series of buffs that would normally take several rounds to cast to go off all at once, and the only way that could normally be achieved is by creating a single item that provides all of those effects at once (which would be damn-near epic). Unfortunately, the rules say...Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed. A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word. The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue. The spells identify and analyze dweomer both reveal command words. This says that it takes a standard action to say the command word in combat but it takes no action to say it out of combat. That's not really a problem as "combat-time" and "real-time" often don't match. The problem is there's nothing in here explicitly saying that you can't say a command word as a single standard action and have all of your items trigger from that one utterance. However, the intention of the rules, and the precedent of every other magic item type is for a character to have to use a standard action to activate a single magic item. As Seeker pointed out, this description is singular, not plural, so one could envision touching your bracers and speaking the command word, or tapping the circlet on your head and speaking the command word--really any action that specifies which item you're triggering at the time. Even if all your items are triggered on the word "dog," you'd still have to touch your bracers and say "dog" one round, then grasp your cloak and say "dog" the next round. Again, there's a problem. What if you're bound or held? You can't touch the item, but according to the rules you should be able to activate it since it doesn't require motion. I think that for the sake of practicality, the character should think of which item s/he wants to activate and say the command word--once per standard action. |
| Edward06-17-04, 09:56 PM | Dunbar Point 2 creates an interesting attack option. Give your opponent a number of magic items (command word activated, cantrip, obscenely reduced spell functionality, unslotted 1000gp each) the easiest way to do this would be to hit them with an arrow trailing a string of individually enchanted beads. If not already fighting a slight of hand use would be better. Then you trick them into saying the command word. They are prevented from casting spells attacking you or moving more than their movement every round for 1 round per item on your string. No save no SR This is indeed a dirty trick but like I said. People in the world will try to have multiple items activating at the same time if the failure means you cant properly act for some time they will make use of the fact. Wizards are smart and not all are without a mind to use dirty tricks. Meabolex. I don’t like it at all. It lacks consistency. That said the only other option I can see is nobody dose it and nobody thinks of it in the game world because it would stuff up the game. I like that idea less. Edward |
| Senko06-18-04, 12:26 AM | I have to say that as much as I dislike the potential abuses from what I saw of the rules I can't actually see a way to prevent characters from taking a dozen minor items that all trigger on the same command word. Of course they would all trigger on that word whether you wanted to or not and a GM who felt they were abusing it could insert an intelligent opponent who hires a whole bunch of minions to run up to the PC's and say the word one after another so all the uses were exhausted before the enemies main assault. |
| Seeker9506-18-04, 08:31 AM | Originally posted by Senko I have to say that as much as I dislike the potential abuses from what I saw of the rules I can't actually see a way to prevent characters from taking a dozen minor items that all trigger on the same command word. You can't? How about: 1. DM says no. 2. Only one standard action at a time. 3. Use the mental command reference, ingnore the no thought required reference. 4. Require "multiple item with same command word" to be crafted simultaneously. There are lots of ways you can "prevent characters from taking a dozen minor items that all trigger on the same command word." Pick the one that works for you and run with it. |
| meabolex06-18-04, 12:55 PM | Originally posted by Edward Meabolex. I don’t like it at all. It lacks consistency. That said the only other option I can see is nobody dose it and nobody thinks of it in the game world because it would stuff up the game. I like that idea less. Stuff up the game? Lacks consistency? Could you back up these assertions with an example? Can you also show how my system would be abusive or destructive to the game? Or perhaps it ties up all these silly loopholes which you want to exploit? If you read the text listed, my example most clearly represents what I believe the game designers intended. This gives the DM to judge if the command word item is activated without a standard action. It gives very clear interpretations if the user is trying to "cheat the system" by avoiding the standard action activation. It also gives the DM the opportunity to "surprise" the PCs when the command word is spoken inadvertently, giving some memorable moments (: |
| BlackSmith06-18-04, 04:53 PM | havent you EVER thinked why command word eats whole action? it is a free action to say sentece or two. why would command word take more time? it is a magical thing? ok why can't you then use the rest 5.5 secs to something else? like pointed the item activates instantly so where the rest of the time goes? you are magicaly prevented to do anything? and why? havent you EVER thinked why command worded item is *1.8 while activated item is *2k? your using a ACTION get the thing working. in combat one round is HUGE time specialy at the first round and stil you get only 200 discount! and even worse if you have more of those items you have to use best part of the combat to activate them. sounds me that the pricing has gone to hell if you get only 200gp discount for beeing out of the combat while only 200gp more expenice item is up-and-runing at the first moment you need it. sounds realy wierd and badly priced to me. lets uss all just think a sec what no one is right or wroong. we are inventing a cheaper method to activate items than the *2000 gps use activation. if you can ativate all your goodie-goodie things in one round with one word, how close would you price it to those Use Activated items? how does 200 discount sound? quite good eh? You are indeed waisting precious time to get those things on before you can go in to the fury. also if the items that use different command word you are loosing more time. -200 sounds good. now think your idea that you CAN'T activate them all at the same time. would that result only for 200 discount if there is only that much more expencive item that can do the same trick without ever using a action to activate it and not matering are you able to speak? just think. |
| Edward06-18-04, 05:12 PM | Meabolex only the “it lacks consistency” comment referred to your suggestion. The it stuffs up the hame comment refer to having it activate all at once. I am shore we all agree that the simultaneous activation of multiple items will have a negative impact on game balance. The lack of consistency is when I speak the word accidentally thinking of no specific item they all go off. When in combat I shout the command word as a battle cry, expecting all my items to activate (I would include glowy fields so it looks really intimidating in the item functions) ether nothing happens, a random item activates (if I wasn’t thinking of a specific one), or only the one I am thinking of activates. Why dose it work differently in and out of combat. Why do my 30 rods of fireball go of only in a situation where that is not my desire? (why did I not take the wizards advice and use a command word other than fire)? It solves the balance problems but creates in character consistency issues. Which are worse than out of character ones. Seeker95. I believe that Senko has a problem with a DM saying your character cant try it. As do I. If I am mistaken I apologise to Senko but my comments remain my opinion. Lets say I am a wizard. I have craft wonderus item. I craft a per of bracers that will cast enlarge person on me 2 per day based on a command word witch I dutifully record with the item as “crahwne”. After gaining a level I decide I want a cloak of blur. I want them to activate in rapid succession so I create it with the command word “crahwne”. The GM says no. why cant my character think of it. You need to create them at the same time to have the same command word. What prevents this? And it means that a group can’t have a common battle cry to activate there flaming weapons (just a point nut much of an argument). I defiantly agree allowing them to activate without the standard actions will be unbalancing but I am looking for a way to prevent it that preserves internal consistency of the world and the idea that the GM may not define a characters thoughts beyond the use of magic by NPCs and appropriates of skills (you don’t think of that tactic is railroading of the worst kind). I will prevent it from working in my games by GM feat if necessary but I want a better way. Also. Several people have proposed that NPCs may speak a command word to rob you of charges. I have commented that by devesting yourself of an item you could speak its command word freely. Nobody has clamed ether to be wrong yet but they pere to be mutually exclusive. It is clear that if I poses an item and speak its command word it activates regardless of intent. What if it is on the floor in front of me (slotted item, unslotted item)? What if another possesses the item? If you can activate an item you do not poses what is the range of this effect? Edward |
| Senko06-18-04, 05:36 PM | Nope you had it right there are gameplay reasons to prevent someone having multiple items activate on the same word but nothing in the rules that can be used to prove it can't be done. At least not against a determined player who's also a good negotiater and I don't really want to just say no without something to back me up. |
| Edward06-18-04, 05:39 PM | BlackSmith. You slipped in while I was typing. A use activated item that is not always on still takes an action to activate there are relatively few of these. Mostly things like the necklace of fireballs. Making it always on means you need to apply a cost multiplier based on the spell duration. Most of the spells we are considering are using a duration of rounds or minutes so an always on item would cost 4 or 3 times as much. Also many (shield and mage armour) can not be made as an always on item using spell formula because they reproduce abilities with there own price tables. Edward |
| K.O.E.G06-18-04, 06:06 PM | how about this: it takes a standard action to activate, causing it to activate wouldn't require a standard action. For example Fighter steve says the command word for his flaming longsword to activate as a free action. Fighter steve hits an orc. at the end of his turn, fighter steve's longsword becomes flaming. If, for example, fighter steve had a flaming shocking longsword, with abilities keyed to "Ham"(Flaming) and "Sandwich"(Shocking) Fighter Steve says "Ham Sandwhich"" as a free action. At the end of his turn, it would gain the flaming property. At the end of his next turn, it would gain the shocking property |
| Edward06-18-04, 09:04 PM | K.O.E.G. I like that one. Mechanically you aren’t using standard actions any more but that isn’t a problem. You can speak a command word as a free action (subject to speaking limits) and all items using that command word will activate one at the end of your turn (if you spoke out of turn at the end of your next turn) and one at the end of each subsequent turn until all are activated. If you speak multiple command words items activate in the order you give the command words (you cant stop them). All that remains to be decided is what order items on the same command word activate. I see 3 possibilities, as decided by the speaker, random, in order of power level (caster level or price as indicator) Any other suggestions are very welcome. Edward |
| K.O.E.G06-18-04, 09:29 PM | I used by order of saying, like my example with ham sandwich. You could say Sandwich ham and get it shocking, then flaming. I would also houserule that no two items would have the same command word, but thats just me. Certainly, it _Would_ take a standard action to activate something with a command word like, "By the thousand gods of valhalla, I shall use my mighty axe to bestow a flaming judgement upon the infernal pits of the thousand hells! Evil, Beware my blade!" Or at least a concentration check to say it while taking an action |
| Edward06-18-04, 11:54 PM | What prevents 2 items from having the same command word? The inter plainer burrocracy would be astounding to behold. And item activation battle cries are far more intimidating when they are all the same word It is far more logical to have a way to determine what goes first. Edward |
| Aetherine06-19-04, 04:17 AM | And yet once more the Wizards.com Message Boards take an extremely situational arguement and tout it about as if it were the only arguement to be had. So, we'll take Figher Joe, a 20th level Figher. He's got two Unslotted Headbands. Each one has a command word that makes it go off. They're both Searing Light. Then, we'll take Figher Bob, also a 20th level Fighter. He found one Unslotted Headband of Searing Light in a dungeon. Lets say it costs 100,000 gold to make (making up figures, don't feel like finding it). We'll assume he got it back around 14th or 15th level. Fighter Bob wanted another one that activates with the same word. So he goes, saves some gold, and sells his share of the oncomming loot until he's finally got the 100,000 to get someone to make it. Now, the figures would vary greatly, but he had to sell at least a few items for half of their cost to make (and thustly worth to a player based on item distribution in the DMG). Or he could have saved all the gold he got adventuring, and used that to pay for the item. It's the process of getting the gold to MAKE the item, and then finding someone to actually MAKE the item that balances the idea of Two Items At Once. I, as we speak, am modifying my copy of the SRD to state that it takes a Standard Action to speak the command word linked to an item. If the player is going to go through the trouble of setting it up, why deny it? It's like a player getting Dodge and Mobility, and then saying "Oh, by the by, I banned Spring Attack. It's too cheap" when they level to get the feat. |
| axel_62106-19-04, 10:19 AM | One thing to consider in all of this is that many command-word activated items are balanced by the fact that it takes up a standard action to turn them on. Elemental weapon enhancements are the most obvious in this regard. Part of what makes a Flaming enhancement equal to a +1 enhancement is that standard action. This means you are free to have a Flaming, Shocking, Frost, Acidic sword, but you're going to have to wait till round #5 before you can start wacking stuff with your uber sword. Anything that reduces that balancing factor will automatically make such enhancements more powerful. |
| Edward06-19-04, 03:42 PM | axel_621. I believe it was already mentioned that a single item with multiple abilities can have them all activated on a single command word and multi element weapons was the example given. I believe it was referencing a book but I don’t recall witch one. Also I believe (as do those I play with but I am more than wiling to find a counter) that a flaming sword can be sheathed on and it will do no damage. In fact it will never do any damage unless an attack action is made. Thus people rarely turn them off. Aetherine. Your argument may work for an item that is expensive for your level but what about the 6 1stlevel buff spells. If unslotted each item is only worth 2000gp if activatable an unlimited number of times per day (or 5/day). By level 10 this is fairly cheep and the items are still very useful. Edward |
| simen_8806-19-04, 08:20 PM | Hmm. 50 rods of scorching ray, activated at the word "gatlin gun":D |
| Aetherine06-20-04, 03:38 AM | Originally posted by Edward [*snip*] Aetherine. Your argument may work for an item that is expensive for your level but what about the 6 1stlevel buff spells. If unslotted each item is only worth 2000gp if activatable an unlimited number of times per day (or 5/day). By level 10 this is fairly cheep and the items are still very useful. Edward [/B] I would say that, if my players were to go for it and strive for it (and there was a Wizard whom could make the items in question for them), they could have it. But I'm one of these DMs that uses everything the PCs do against them somehow - this Wizard might learn from their good idea, share it with others, and eventually the BBEG is going to speak "Enup Chuk!" and gain the effects of a dozen Buff Spells. |
| BenTGaidin06-22-04, 03:40 AM | Hmm... I had a thought related to this. Assuming that you can't activate multiple items with the same command word all at once (I like the idea of them activating in successive rounds, randomly) would you allow a special magic item that would allow the user to do this? Say, for example, a ring that the wearer can touch to two different magic items and say their command words (and not have them active) and then when he says the ring's command word, both items go off. Would that be something you'd allow? And if so, what would be the cost to make it, and the spells required? I've not looked through my books to try and figure that out yet. I was thinking that using the ring to "store" the command words would use a charge out of the items (and keep it used, if a day passes and it'd normally recharge) for balance reasons, so that effectively it just delays the activation of the pair of items until you say so. |
| Senko06-22-04, 03:46 AM | Hmmmm I like the idea and would be interested in seeing what people more experienced with creating their own spells/items come up with for it. |
| Elrana06-22-04, 12:25 PM | I think that it should be pretty clear that only the wielder/wearer etc. of a magic item can activate it. It should also be pretty clear that certain items require thought in order to activate them correctly, for example boots of teleportation. The way around this as far as I can see is to establish that only worn/wielded items can be activated. Thus having a sword on your belt and saying 'hogwash' won't suddenly cause it to burst into flame, but having it in your hand and saying it will. Further having that sword in your hand and a shield on your shield arm that both answer to 'hogwash' will both activate in a single round. It may seem munchkinny but there would seem to be no ruling against it. I might (as a DM) insist that if a mage wishes to make items that respond to the same command word simultaneously then he must make them simultaneously, with shared materials that cost X amount more, the simultaneous property is a +1 equivalent and the creation costs, both in terms of GP and XP rise equivalently. Possibly these increased enhancement values could be cumulative, +1 for the first item, +2 for the second and so on. Therefore the more items in a set that could be utilised simultaneously the less powerful they can be. If you reach ten items then they can only be a +1 equivalent each but will each cost as if they were +10 items. Further I would definitely rule that no two items would ever be found entirely by chance that shared a command word, thus making certain that they would have to either create them or pay to have them created themselves. I see no problem with them using their hard earned finances as they see fit. I may also rule that the items only work at full power when all are used in conjunction with one another, i.e. if they are linked they are linked in all ways. I think that adds a little flavour to the idea of conjoined items. I actually quite like the idea of it, and of what can follow on from it once it is allowed. I may introduce it to my game. I am sure that the group would go on a quest to try to bring together the various pieces of a set that when used in conjunction increase each other's magical enhancement. For example: Heironeous' Blessing This collection of magical items was presented to Lord Hestrel, a paladin who performed so many great and noble acts in the name of his lord Heironeous that Heironeous himself saw fit to reward him. Thus he gave him these three items which were rumoured to make Lord Hestrel invulnerable. Following Hestrel's death of old age his three son's argued over who should be left the collection and eventually they decided to split the collection between them. The three items have been disassociated from one another for so long that they have been considered no more than a legend now for many centuries. The Blessed Defender, a +1 large mithril shield The Blessed Protector, +1 mithril full plate armour The Blessed Shelter, a +1 cloak of resistance These three items exhibit no unusual properties except when used in conjunction by a LG character. When any two are used in conjunction by anyone of LG alignment they will act as if their magical enhancement was +2. If all three items are used in conjunction by a LG character then they will immediately display the symbol of Heironeous upon the face of the shield, the breastplate of the armour and the back of the cloak, the enhancement will rise to +3 and the character will be granted the evasion and mettle special abilities. Any NG or CG character using the items will only gain the +1 enhancement benefit and any non-good character will gain no benefits beyond those of a masterwork shield, masterwork armour and a non-magical cloak. A major portion of a campaign could be searching for these three items so that they may be brought together and used in the battle against the BBEG by one of the party members. I seem to have gone a little off topic. Oh, well. Nevermind! :) |
| Graven06-22-04, 01:07 PM | My understanding of the rules and looking at all the arguments presented I would rule that its a free action to say the command word, yet it takes a standard action for the item to become "fully charged" I would allow linking of the same command word for something like the example in the book, two enhancements on the same item, saying the word causing both to become active after a single standard action. However, in regards to multiple items you could not have the same command word because this would be too powerful. |
| Krelios06-22-04, 01:13 PM | Okay, since my arguments showing why you can't use the same action to activate all your items has been ignored, I'll quote myself again... ...it takes a standard action to say the command word in combat but it takes no action to say it out of combat. That's not really a problem as "combat-time" and "real-time" often don't match. The problem is there's nothing in here explicitly saying that you can't say a command word as a single standard action and have all of your items trigger from that one utterance. However, the intention of the rules, and the precedent of every other magic item type is for a character to have to use a standard action to activate a single magic item. As Seeker pointed out, this description is singular, not plural, so one could envision touching your bracers and speaking the command word, or tapping the circlet on your head and speaking the command word--really any action that specifies which item you're triggering at the time. Even if all your items are triggered on the word "dog," you'd still have to touch your bracers and say "dog" one round, then grasp your cloak and say "dog" the next round. Again, there's a problem. What if you're bound or held? You can't touch the item, but according to the rules you should be able to activate it since it doesn't require motion. I think that for the sake of practicality, the character should think of which item s/he wants to activate and say the command word--once per standard action.It's conveniently phrased that you can accidentally say the command words out of combat, but in combat, it takes a standard action for each item you want to activate. There's no way around that--for the sake of balance, it should remain so. |
| Seeker9506-22-04, 02:08 PM | Originally posted by Krelios Okay, since my arguments showing why you can't use the same action to activate all your items has been ignored, I'll quote myself again...They've been ignored because the conversation turned away from the text and into the realms of "what if" and "why not". So quoting yourself quoting the text is going to leave you as ignored now as it did then. The "what if" conversation has turned to how to allow for multiple item activation without breaking game balance. Elrana repeated the suggestion that I offered earlier, regarding allowing items specially crafted together for such a purpose. I limited it to specific "linked" items that would "fit" with a single activation, like a pair of weapons, or an armor and shield, or even a pair of rings. So, while the portion you have quoted says what it says, consider adding comment as to how the suggested "paired activation" would not be balanced, how it might be abused, and how we might prevent abuse short of disallowing it. |
| Senko06-22-04, 06:18 PM | You know I'm suddenly reminded of the item sets in diablo 2 those things were hellishly difficult and time consuming to find (if you were playing it legit and alone) but well worth it when you did. |
| Elrana06-22-04, 07:54 PM | Originally posted by Senko You know I'm suddenly reminded of the item sets in diablo 2 those things were hellishly difficult and time consuming to find (if you were playing it legit and alone) but well worth it when you did. To a certain extent I borrowed (alright, stole) some inspiration from that. I'm glad you noticed! If something is hellishly difficult and time consuming to find, especially when the BBEG is also sending his minions after the same thing in order to thwart your attempts to bring it together then it deserves to be well worth it when you finally manage to get it on. This is not, as far as I am concerned, unbalancing, it is just reward for heroic successes. Firstly finding the original legend out and taking the time to look into whether or not it may be true. Secondly taking the time to hunt down your first clue and get on the road. Thirdly beating your opponent across continents and icey wastes to the item, fighting your way through the traps and creatures that have been left protecting the item, getting past the BBEG's minions who were waiting outside the dungeon entrance to take it from you when you emerge tired and unprepared for battle and then doing it all over again to find the second piece! Good work fellah! Have a groovy piece of kit! :D :) |
| Lion2106-22-04, 08:22 PM | Graven has had the same thought as I ... Great minds really do think alike. There are two methods of looking at this issue. 1) All command words take a standard action to activate. E.g. Incantare-hectarosnamkortorona! 2) The word (which can be anything. NOTE: this is my preferred method and the one I believe the devs had in mind when they came up with the command-word activated mechanism) is spoken....and the item(s) in question take the remainder of the round to "charge up" E.g. : Combat- The Fighter draws his blade and whispers in feral tongue...his longblade slowly begins to glow brighter and brighter untill it appears as if freshly drawn from the forge! Non-Combat- Fighter 1: "So, Bob, did you hear about the time I once went toe to toe with thatVizzerdrix ? Fighter 2: "Aww...not that story agai-....*sniff* *sniff* "..Hey..do you ...smell something...erm...burning?" Fighter 1: *looking down* "....Uh oh....." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now you might be wondering :well, wait a sec, why can't my character simply say the command word then on someone else's turn? The answer: Too f*&^%^g bad. Its game balance. And no, its not realistic. Oh well. Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons.... |
| Krelios06-23-04, 10:41 AM | So, while the portion you have quoted says what it says, consider adding comment as to how the suggested "paired activation" would not be balanced, how it might be abused, and how we might prevent abuse short of disallowing it.I apologize for trying to stay on the topic of the thread. Looking back to the original poster, he said:2 items 1 command word Somebody asked me the other day wether you can use the same command word for multiple items and activate them all with a single standard action. You normally wouldn’t want this as you cant activate one and not the others but a quarterstaff +1flaming, +1 frost activating both at once would almost always be advantages. The question is, is it allowed and should it be allowed? EdwardMy answer was what the rules stated in response to his question--people ignored what the rules said and were attempting to make up rules of their own. I was simply pointing this out. It shouldn't be an issue of "how can we break the rules and get away with it," it should be disallowed, since that's what the rules say. |
| Seeker9506-23-04, 11:54 AM | Originally posted by Krelios My answer was what the rules stated in response to his question--people ignored what the rules said and were attempting to make up rules of their own.He asked two questions: Is it allowed? Should it be allowed? You answered the first. Everyone acknowledged that. Then began addressing the second questions. Since the answer to the second question is entirely subjective, it is understandable that there will be different answers provided. You remained stuck to the first question. The rest of us acknowledged it and moved on to the fun part. There have been many different answers, including many different forms of how it should be allowed, if it is to be allowed at all. |
| Pentar06-23-04, 12:07 PM | I recently acquired 8 wands of magic missile (level 9). If I duct-tape them all together and assuming they all had the same command word... Ouch. Personally, I think it's broken to allow someone to activate multiple items with a single action. The way I see it, a sword with flaming/ice/law/shocking is still -a single item- with multiple effects. It's OK to activate a single item in a round, even if can do multiple things upon activation. However, if say a person dual-wielding two swords of Flaming/Ice/Law/Shocking, they would have to spend separate rounds activating each individual weapon, even if they shared the same command word. I think that's pretty balanced - since.. well, we're talking about some pretty uber exploits. :P Consider, in many regards, someone could outfit themselves as if they had a Chain Contingency effect on them, without ever having to cast the spell... That's just broken. :P |
| Seeker9506-23-04, 02:10 PM | Originally posted by Pentar Personally, I think it's broken to allow someone to activate multiple items with a single action.Broken inherently, or broken in most cases? There is no doubt that there is potential abuse in allowing it, but there is also a decent amount of flavor-specific, role-play and story enhancing circumstances in which to allow it. What about: Two flaming short swords crafted at the same time for the same purpose (or any two weapons used together)? A ring of invisibility and a ring of silence, crafted together? Two matching linked helms of telepathy? A brooch of protection from evil and matching bracelet of protection from chaos? A match set animated sword and shield? Granted, even in listing a few I might consider, I can also envision saying no to any given suggestion, depending on the game *and the player*. So the question remains: Should (or could) a single command word activate mroe than one item? If no, that's fine. But if yes, under what conditions would you allow it? |
| Pentar06-23-04, 02:38 PM | Originally posted by Seeker95 Broken inherently, or broken in most cases? In my opinion, broken inherently. By virtue of being able to activate separate items with a single command is just not right. :) What about: Two flaming short swords crafted at the same time for the same purpose (or any two weapons used together)? A ring of invisibility and a ring of silence, crafted together? Two matching linked helms of telepathy? A brooch of protection from evil and matching bracelet of protection from chaos? A match set animated sword and shield? These are interesting ideas, and I could see how making them operate as a single use-activation would be interesting... but that's the thing, I see that as broken because you're gaining the benefit of two effects from two different items, at one activation. Take your rings for example. I would suggest that the ring could be made into a single item, rather than two items. If they are two items, then they need to be activated as separate items (afterall, there are instances where you may want to be invisible, but not silenced, or vice versa - so having them react to the same command need not always be advantageous). If the ring is one item, then at least it can be destroyed, removed, deactivated and/or otherwise disposed of as a single item. A person who wants to gain the benefits of both effects with a single command should have to only activate one item to do so, but then they risk losing both effects if that item is destroyed or otherwise rendered inoperable. It's sort of the trade-off balance. Tipping it would lead to a whole mess of problems - probably a lot of things we haven't even considered yet. Should (or could) a single command word activate mroe than one item? If no, that's fine. But if yes, under what conditions would you allow it? I would say no at the former just so I'd never have to consider the latter. :) Call it lazy, but opening the doors to something like this can only cause problems. The way I see it, the game was designed in a certain manner for a certain reason. It is taken for granted that if you use a magical item, you can only use one during a round and that's that. The suggestion that one-command word operating two magical items is the same as someone saying, "I'm a master at chugging beer, so I should be able to drink multiple potions in a single round". The book says one action to drink one potion, thus, that's what I stick by. |
| Seeker9506-23-04, 02:50 PM | Originally posted by Pentar I would say no at the former just so I'd never have to consider the latter. Call it lazy, but opening the doors to something like this can only cause problems.I understand that stance completely. My blanket rules are more restrictive (with the blanket no being default in most cases). |
| Edward06-23-04, 09:24 PM | To those that dislke the sets of linked items “because you're gaining the benefit of two effects from two different items, at one activation.” To quote Pentar. What if you consider the 2 items as a single item withe two parts (bracers boots and gloves all come in sets)? It has the disadvantage that it takes up 2 slots and the advantage that if you loose one you still get a partial effect. Also for the purpose of activation would you consider a double weapon +1 flming/+1frost to be a single item (activatable with 1 standard action) or 2 items that happen to be connected (2 standard actions to activate)? Also nobody has yet stated what would prevent you from crafting 2 items with the same command word if it cannot be done. Or provided a description of what happens when you speak a command word that is linked to 2 items when it takes 2 actions to activate them both. Edward |
| Senko06-23-04, 11:52 PM | Hmmmm maybe a feat craft set items? It allows you to link various items together but in order to get the full benefit you need all the items? E.g. you could make a +5 exploding longsword but if you combined it with a +3 shield and a +3 set of plate you would only have full power when they're all together take away the suit of armour and all of them decrease by 2 so the armour and shield are now +1 while the sword is say a +4 flaming longsword. Take away the shield and it drops so now the shield and armour are merely masterwork and the sword is a +2 flaming longsword? |
| Elrana06-24-04, 03:33 AM | Originally posted by Senko Hmmmm maybe a feat craft set items? It allows you to link various items together but in order to get the full benefit you need all the items? E.g. you could make a +5 exploding longsword but if you combined it with a +3 shield and a +3 set of plate you would only have full power when they're all together take away the suit of armour and all of them decrease by 2 so the armour and shield are now +1 while the sword is say a +4 flaming longsword. Take away the shield and it drops so now the shield and armour are merely masterwork and the sword is a +2 flaming longsword? Genius! Now why didn't I think of that! ;) :) |
| BlackSmith06-24-04, 05:41 AM | Originally posted by Seeker95 You remained stuck to the first question. The rest of us acknowledged it and moved on to the fun part. or you did. by the rules you can craft all your things to work with the same command word and they all go off by that same instant, using one charge. _Your_ home rulings were that you must make the items same time to make them go of with the same word. rules say nothing about this. if you say the word, any item that works with that word, starts kicking in. if you point to the "one item at time" thing i think you got it wroong. by the rules saying a word is a non-action but to activate a item is a standard action. it takes one standard action to get all the goods working. like eating. you start eating and you stop it but you are scramming small pieces of food in your mouth. if you put only one, you eat. if you put hundreds, you are still eating. the "activating a item is as standard action" refers to the time it takes item to load up or get in magicaly tuned or what ever PER item. the user has to wait for "standard actions" time to benefit from the item. if you are trying say that the wording means saying "bob" takes 6sec, i suggest you should think again. the item takes 6secs to build up and you have to wait that time until you can benefit from it. if there is 100 items loading up in that same 6sec time you still have to wait that 6sec to benefit them all. consider also this if you think your right and im wrong, what would happen if a person says a command word that activates an item and the same time draws a magical sword? the sword is Use Activated so what does the "one item at time" rule do to the command word item then? your house rule hits the wall in that point too. Edit: m->n |
| Senko06-24-04, 08:21 AM | You did I merely added the need to take a feat. |
| Seeker9506-24-04, 10:36 AM | Originally posted by BlackSmith by the rules .... if you point to .... you start eating .... saying "bob" takes 6sec .... What in the nine hells are you talking about? |
| Elrana06-24-04, 04:17 PM | Originally posted by Senko You did I merely added the need to take a feat. I know, I was only being facetious, forget it. I like the idea of the feat though, I would make the prerequisites pretty high so that it is always going to be a feat available only to high powered mages, hence the items are high powered too. That would cover a lot of ground and take care of a lot of issues I think. :) |
| Pentar06-24-04, 04:44 PM | Originally posted by Edward To those that dislke the sets of linked items “because you're gaining the benefit of two effects from two different items, at one activation.” To quote Pentar. What if you consider the 2 items as a single item withe two parts (bracers boots and gloves all come in sets)? It has the disadvantage that it takes up 2 slots and the advantage that if you loose one you still get a partial effect. What's the difference between that and two separate items with the same command word? It's the exact same thing, except you worded it differently. :) If you actually mean the "consider the 2 items as a single item", then destroying/disabling one, would render the other inoperative. That would be the true disadvantage, otherwise, it is exactly the same thing. Also for the purpose of activation would you consider a double weapon +1 flming/+1frost to be a single item (activatable with 1 standard action) or 2 items that happen to be connected (2 standard actions to activate)? I consider that a single item, activated by a single command. Also nobody has yet stated what would prevent you from crafting 2 items with the same command word if it cannot be done. Or provided a description of what happens when you speak a command word that is linked to 2 items when it takes 2 actions to activate them both. I think the point is that you're not just saying the word to activate the item, but rather, you're using a certain amount of will too. For example, wands require that you are able to cast the spell the wand provides in order to use it, otherwise you have to use a kill, Use Magical Devices in order to even activate the darn thing. This speaks to me that it isn't just saying one word and the effect takes place. You have to will and concentrate it into effect, which is why it is a standard action - and also why it draws AoO. |