Post/Author/DateTime	Post
greenlocus 04-04-04, 03:16 AM	So, hypothetical situation: Your a 10th level sorcerer that ran into a deck of many cards - pulled a beneficial card (+6 diplomacy and ownership of a keep) and sold your keep for $200,000 gp. (actually, does anybody know how much a keep goes for these days?) Now, you have 200,000 gold - what is the coolest way to spend this newly acquired loot (magical items I am assuming)? What tasty magic items would you deck your spellcaster out with? What is the most beneficial - best combinations, etc. I look forward to hearing what you guys come up with! Spend Wisely and not all in one place...
Boondoggle 04-04-04, 04:46 AM	Well, ignoring the fact that you've now broken the campaign by having waaaaay too much money for your character level, I'd find a 19th level sorcerer and pay her to cast wish 5 times in a row for cha and twice more for con. That would cost you 186,970gp ([19*90gp+5000*5gp]*7) and leave you with 13,030gp.
Lina_Inverse 04-04-04, 05:21 AM	id keep the keep ^_^ok seriously,take the keep.YOU design it.get the strong hold builders guide and build whatever you want,you can easily have a 10million gp keep,espilly since huts go for something like 2kgold o_O
bolobaby 04-04-04, 05:22 AM	Belt of Magnificence (BROKEN) from the Miniatures Handbook. 200,000gp gives you +6 to all stats. Yowch.
fruits and vegetables 04-04-04, 05:23 AM	Had this happen to me. That is just the randomness of the deck. It is an artifact afterall. There is the chance it may do it. It does not necessarily break the game. It does alter it. I beleave it says you get a castle in the card description. I beleave it is priced somewhere around 500,000GP. Now....you want to sell it. I do not think you would find a buyer very quickly considering it's value, perhaps not at all. Also, loot is sold at half price.:D So yeah, i would not give you a buyer.....at least not for another 7 or 8 levels. Even then i would treat it like the lottery where you cash out at about 40% total value.
bolobaby 04-04-04, 05:28 AM	I agree with Fruits and Vegetables, though... Who has 200,000gp kicking around to buy your keep? Not many, so a deal like that would take months - even years - to set up. Then, while you owned it, the DM could make you man the thing or have it get overrun by monsters. Man-at-arms don't come cheap in large numbers for long periods of time. Then there is the management of the thing! Most likely this keep is in some kingdom, so you become a vassal of the king (unless you want him to take your keep away). As vassal, you are required to collect taxes for the king. Better hire some administrators and tax collectors. What if you tax too much? Do your subjects revolt? Oh the juicy irony... Your DM gave you the easy way out, that's for sure.
Seeker95 04-04-04, 09:11 AM	If I were a wealthy NPC in the world, and I discovered that a brand new, no-name, no-title know-nothing had suddenly become the title holder of a keep, and was looking to sell it... I would arrange for the quiet demise of said title-holder, take possession of the keep, and forge the papers that prove I bought it fair and square. If I were your DM, this is also what I would do if you tried to sell it instead of make a role-playing effort to use the keep. And if I were inclined to let you actually sell the keep for the cash, I would also quickly drain your cash coffers to bring your wealth (money and possessions) in line with the wealth-by-character level guidelines.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-04-04, 09:23 AM	Seeker So why actually bother giving the character the Keep in the first place, then? The Deck of Many Things is a powerful magic item, with insanely powerful dangers built right in, and getting something good should be a reward for taking risks. If you're going to turn a reward into a penalty, why bother? Let the guy sell the keep if he wants to, but make him loose plenty of profit on the sale for rushing it. What you're advocating is about the same as having a random vampire level drain a character who got the xp bonus card and run off for no reason just because it's upsetting you that one character is a level above the rest.
bolobaby 04-04-04, 09:36 AM	Kyuketsukiouji, You make a good point, but it isn't entirely accurate. The "Throne" card's description is: "The character becomes a true leader in the people's eyes. The castle gained appears in any open area he wishes (but the decision where to place it must be made within the hour)." It does *not* say: "You gain an item worth 500,000gp that you can immediately turn around and sell for 200,000gp." If you try and sell your castle, it defeats the purpose of what was given to you on the card. It's *almost* like wishing for more wishes. I'm not saying you *shouldn't* be able to sell the castle, I'm simply saying that transferring your new fiefdom to a new owner should have realistic timelines, implications, and problems. A buyer isn't going to just walk right up with 200,000gp in cash and say "I'll take it!" Look at it this way - if the person has 200,000gp already, they probably already HAVE a castle of their own! So the DM *did* give them the easy way out - no two ways about it. This newly annoited "leader of the people" just up and abandoned his people without a second thought. For that, he should now be an anathema to them.
Hot Rod 04-04-04, 09:50 AM	From the greenlocus's post, I'm guessing the DM wants him to take the 200K rather than dealing with the keep. Buying Wish spells is probably the best way to go. (5gp/xp + cost of a 9th level spell) or buy scrolls of it if you can't find a caster that can cast 5 at once. A task that is difficult at best, 25K xp (5 wishes) is more than enough to go from level 19 to 20. Your DM might be grateful for not outfitting the entire party in awesome magic items (or just yourself) and arrange for it to happen.
greenlocus 04-04-04, 01:51 PM	Yea - some of you guys are right on track; the Dm doesn't really want me to keep the keep (haha - keep the keep); he thinks it would complicate the game, etc. (i.e., take it in a direction that he has not planned for). And also, it is a good point to notice all the really bad stuff that can happen when drawing from the deck - it is not justifiable to negate any advantages the character gains from drawing from the deck since it is balanced out by all of the badness that could occur while drawing. I took great risk in gaining this new found wealth - there is no reason that acts of God (e.g., the DM) should dwindle the wealth away from me.
greenlocus 04-04-04, 01:54 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle Well, ignoring the fact that you've now broken the campaign by having waaaaay too much money for your character level, I'd find a 19th level sorcerer and pay her to cast wish 5 times in a row for cha and twice more for con. That would cost you 186,970gp ([19*90gp+5000*5gp]*7) and leave you with 13,030gp. The DM accidentally took my PHB home with him last night; so, can you tell me what wish can do in regard to incresing ability scores and raising character level?
greenlocus 04-04-04, 02:05 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle Well, ignoring the fact that you've now broken the campaign by having waaaaay too much money for your character level, I'd find a 19th level sorcerer and pay her to cast wish 5 times in a row for cha and twice more for con. That would cost you 186,970gp ([19*90gp+5000*5gp]*7) and leave you with 13,030gp. Also, where can I reference the rules for determining how much spellcasters charge for casting spells. You seem to be following some formula above but it would be helpful to know where that formula is found.
Boondoggle 04-04-04, 03:07 PM	All of what you're looking for is in the SRD. Since you probably don't know what that is, click the 'd20' link on the D&D main page (lower left hand corner) and look for the SRD links. Oh, and IMO, 10th level PCs shouldn't be playing around with artifacts, especially not this one. To each his own, though. Edit: The formula, though, is 10gp * spell level * caster level + 5gp * xp cost. 19th level sorcerers are the lowest level characters who will be able to cast 5 wishes in one day.
greenlocus 04-04-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle All of what you're looking for is in the SRD. Since you probably don't know what that is, click the 'd20' link on the D&D main page (lower left hand corner) and look for the SRD links. Oh, and IMO, 10th level PCs shouldn't be playing around with artifacts, especially not this one. To each his own, though. Edit: The formula, though, is 10gp * spell level * caster level + 5gp * xp cost. 19th level sorcerers are the lowest level characters who will be able to cast 5 wishes in one day. Wow - this SRD is pretty cool but also pretty expanisve - can you give me some direction as to where to look for the above formula.
greenlocus 04-04-04, 03:23 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle All of what you're looking for is in the SRD. Since you probably don't know what that is, click the 'd20' link on the D&D main page (lower left hand corner) and look for the SRD links. Oh, and IMO, 10th level PCs shouldn't be playing around with artifacts, especially not this one. To each his own, though. Edit: The formula, though, is 10gp * spell level * caster level + 5gp * xp cost. 19th level sorcerers are the lowest level characters who will be able to cast 5 wishes in one day. Also, if it makes a difference in validating the presence of the deck, my character was level 12 at the time and not level 10 - It seems that 12th level is reasonable for such activities.
greenlocus 04-04-04, 03:36 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle All of what you're looking for is in the SRD. Since you probably don't know what that is, click the 'd20' link on the D&D main page (lower left hand corner) and look for the SRD links. Oh, and IMO, 10th level PCs shouldn't be playing around with artifacts, especially not this one. To each his own, though. Edit: The formula, though, is 10gp * spell level * caster level + 5gp * xp cost. 19th level sorcerers are the lowest level characters who will be able to cast 5 wishes in one day. Would it not make sense to spread it out over multiple days in order to not require the use of a 19th lvl wizard? A 17th lvl wizard could cast wish right?
Sisyfos 04-04-04, 03:41 PM	I'd wipe my *** with the green bills. Maybe sell them to someone as mattress fillings to get some currency notes backed by gold deposits somewhere. :angel:
CrimsonRyoko 04-04-04, 07:50 PM	Well in 3.0 the DoMT was a magic item not an artifact, and some Dm's still play by those rules. It would help to know what books your DM allows. Some fun things to get are as follows: 2x Bracelet of Secrets: Adds +1 to Arcane Save DC Cloak of Resistance +5 Staff of Power
KerlanRayne 04-05-04, 01:28 AM	Originally posted by greenlocus Wow - this SRD is pretty cool but also pretty expanisve - can you give me some direction as to where to look for the above formula. Try the HTML version of the SRD in my sig. It's under equipment, then goods and services. KerlanRayne
Boondoggle 04-05-04, 05:10 AM	Well in 3.0 the DoMT was a magic item not an artifact It's a minor artifact in my 3E DMG, but I guess not yours? Would it not make sense to spread it out over multiple days in order to not require the use of a 19th lvl wizard? A 17th lvl wizard could cast wish right? Read wish carefully. To get a +5 enhancement bonus to a stat, you need to cast (or have cast) 5 wishes in succession. This requires 5 9th level spell slots.
Xeviat-DM 04-05-04, 05:59 AM	How much do tomes cost?
Vorpal Warhammer 04-05-04, 10:23 AM	I believe the keep granted by the Deck of Many Things is outlined in the Stronghold Builder's Guide as the "Cheap Keep". If I remember correctly, it's worth 75,000gp, which means you could only sell it for 37,500gp. That's still a lot of money all at once for a 10th level character, but it's much more manageable than 200,000gp.
Bedevere 04-05-04, 01:54 PM	A 19th level sorcerer could NOT cast wish 5 times in a day. While he has enough spell slots, and may well know wish, where is he going to get the 25000 xp from? If he had this much XP spare, he would be level 20, at which point he doesnt actually have that much xp spare any more anyway. Scrolls would be needed, plain and simple. There is no reason that a combination of scrolls and spells could not be used though.
Lycanthrope King 04-05-04, 03:38 PM	Get a Boccobs Blessed Book
Boondoggle 04-05-04, 08:11 PM	A 19th level sorcerer could NOT cast wish 5 times in a day. While he has enough spell slots, and may well know wish, where is he going to get the 25000 xp from? If he had this much XP spare, he would be level 20, at which point he doesnt actually have that much xp spare any more anyway. He doesn't have to level up. I was just using a 19th level sorcerer in order to get the lowest price possible. I already think the whole idea is a big mistake by the DM.
Bedevere 04-06-04, 03:30 AM	And I repeat, since you seem to have missed my point. A 19th level sorcerer could not cast wish 5 times in a day, because he lacks enough xp spare to cast all of them. Each casting requires the caster to give up 5000 xp. He cannot have that much xp spare without being at least 25th level, and about to level again. To get 5 wishes cast on you, you need either multiple casters (Incredibly unlikely that two 17th+ caster level guys are in the same area.) several scrolls, or just a tome of whichever stat you want boosted. The tomes are likely the easiest way to go about it. Scrolls should be harder to find anyway. Wizards tend to put them in their spellbooks first chance they get.
Boondoggle 04-06-04, 06:23 AM	you are using the mount for cover, then an attack roll that missed you by 1-4 points would strike the mount. XP needed for character level 19: 171k XP needed for character level 20: 190k Xp needed for a 19th level sorcerer to cast 5 wishes: 196k Where is the problem here?
pyk 04-06-04, 06:29 AM	A 19th level sorcerer could not cast wish 5 times in a day, because he lacks enough xp spare to cast all of them. Sorry, but no where in any of my books does it say that if you have the requisite amount of XP you are required to level up. Therefore, if a 19th level Sorc wishes to use the XP to make money, s/he is quite welcome to do this. Besides, the mechanic of requiring XP for items and/or spells is strictly for PCs, and not intended for NPCs. Otherwise, a DM would have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much bookkeepping in trying to maintain how much XP ALL of his NPCs actually had.
Bedevere 04-06-04, 06:29 AM	Originally posted by Boondoggle XP needed for character level 19: 171k XP needed for character level 20: 190k Xp needed for a 19th level sorcerer to cast 5 wishes: 196k Where is the problem here? If you have 196K xp, then you are a 20th level sorcerer. You cannot drop levels from spellcasting related xp loss. Hence, a 19th level sorcerer cannot have enough xp to cast the spell 5 times, neither can a 20th, assuming epic level progression. Since you also cannot put off leveling (you either have the xp, and the levels that go with it, or you do not...) this means that even if your sorcerer could use your method, which they cant, they would start at 20th, not 19th. As I said earlier, you'd need to be 26th level character about to reach 27th to cast 5 wish spells consecutively. It is simply not possible for anyone of lower level to cast wish that many times, due to the xp drain involved.
pyk 04-06-04, 06:32 AM	Since you also cannot put off leveling (you either have the xp, and the levels that go with it, or you do not...) this means that even if your sorcerer could use your method, which they cant, they would start at 20th, not 19th. Yes, you can absolutely put off leveling if you wish. There is no rule specifying that a character must level if he has the XP to do so.
Bedevere 04-06-04, 06:38 AM	Originally posted by pyk Sorry, but no where in any of my books does it say that if you have the requisite amount of XP you are required to level up. Therefore, if a 19th level Sorc wishes to use the XP to make money, s/he is quite welcome to do this. Besides, the mechanic of requiring XP for items and/or spells is strictly for PCs, and not intended for NPCs. Otherwise, a DM would have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much bookkeepping in trying to maintain how much XP ALL of his NPCs actually had. Firstly, leveling up is a game mechanic to represent skills learned over time, not something that can be 'put off' in order to allow more powerful items to be made, more spells to be cast, etc. Second, and I quote PHB p.58: "When your characters xp total reaches at least the minimum xp neded for a new character level (see table 3-2) he or she 'goes up a level'. " Note the wording. It does not say you can choose to go up a level, it says you do go up a level. XP is an abstract concept of life force, experience, and so on. The amount you have determines your level, not your desire to spend a non existent resource. As for xp being for PC's only, I disagree. It is an effective limit against a single NPC mage being a magic item factory. Otherwise, players could provide a cohort (or other friendly NPC) wizard with enough money to make a load of magic items for them, pay him a load for himself, and still end up with really cheap magic items. Nowhere else in the entire game does it differentiate between PC's and NPC's for a game mechanic, so why should it do so here?
Bedevere 04-06-04, 06:42 AM	Originally posted by pyk Yes, you can absolutely put off leveling if you wish. There is no rule specifying that a character must level if he has the XP to do so. See my previous post for part of my answer to this, but I'll add the following. Nowhere in my rule books does it say that my character cannot level instantly just by saying the magic word flibble, so logically I must be able to do so. If you require rulebooks that specify everything you can't do, then you are going to need a crane to move just the PHB, let alone the DMG. Common sense alone should make it clear that a rulebook exists to say what is possible, not what isnt.
pyk 04-06-04, 08:04 AM	Otherwise, players could provide a cohort (or other friendly NPC) wizard with enough money to make a load of magic items for them, pay him a load for himself, and still end up with really cheap magic items. Nowhere else in the entire game does it differentiate between PC's and NPC's for a game mechanic, so why should it do so here? Cohort is a PC mechanic, as in being part of a PCs abilities (Leadership feat) and has the XP requirement. Note: No such XP requirement is built into the FOLLOWERS of the PC. Indicates the XP mechanic does not exist for followers. By extrapolation, this means the normal townsfolk you meet on the street also do not have the XP mechanic, either. Although, if you, as DM, wish to go to the lengths required to follow the XP for all the NPCs you have in a normal game world, go right ahead. Again, way too much trouble for 99.9999% of DMs around. Nowhere in my rule books does it say that my character cannot level instantly just by saying the magic word flibble, so logically I must be able to do so. Uh, yes, because the rulebooks do say exactly what is required to level up, and that word is not included. Common sense alone should make it clear that a rulebook exists to say what is possible, not what isnt. And here, common sense says that if you have enough XP to go up a level, yet you make an item, cast a spell, you don't get to go up that level. Yes, the XP mechanic is abstract, yet it is also a resource to be tapped into by the PCs, otherwise the XP costs to spells and/or items would be non-existant, or you would be allowed, by the rules, to be reduced by level because you've taken away your life-force. Also, common sense would also say one does not get to choose what class they may change into, nor the skills/feats they may aquire nor ability progression at the time they have gained said XP. This would all be determined by the actual usage through at least the level beforehand. Except, this is not the way the game runs. Again, by extrapolation, it is not an extreme to believe that the XP can be used for items or spells instead of levelling, as the mechanic allows for this to occur, by using that XP between levels. Otherwise, you would have to use XP solely for levelling the character.
Vorpal Warhammer 04-06-04, 08:58 AM	This argument is silly. The rules say you can use experience that would cause you to level to instead cast a spell with an XP component. Magic Overview, SRD:XP Cost (XP): Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.Now be nice to each other :P
pyk 04-06-04, 11:40 AM	This argument is silly. The rules say you can use experience that would cause you to level to instead cast a spell with an XP component. Thank you. I knew it was there, just had trouble locating it.
Bedevere 04-06-04, 11:59 AM	At the exact moment you level, this is true. However, you are not going to convince me that you will meet a 19th level sorcerer exactly as he gains 6000 plus xp in one act, and convince him to cast wish 5 times on you. Once you get the xp, you either use them, or level with them. No holding off your decision. Nothing in my books says you can put off leveling even a second, let alone the months that would actually be involved in gaining such xp realistically. Anyway. As for XP relating to NPC's, I am not saying I keep an exact total for each and every peasant the players meet. I am however, saying that they are limited by the same processes as the players are. NPC's do not level vastly faster than the players without a very good reason. Wizards do not churn out magic items without some explanation of where they are getting all the XP needed from, and the BBEG 19th level sorcerer does not cast wish 5 times in a row without at least two scrolls. By following such guidelines, I keep the games I run fair.
Vorpal Warhammer 04-06-04, 12:14 PM	You've already said you won't be convinced, and that's fine. It's your game to rule however you would like. You can treat experience like a coin that every monster carries with them. The second you hold a certain number of coins on your person, you can be bathed in a nimbus of light and then suddenly have abilities you previously lacked. Some DMs, on the other hand, use the optional rules in the DMG stating you must undergo training once you receive enough experience in order to advance to the next level. Most people do something inbetween. The rules DO support the ability to forego levelling and use that experience to cast spells. The rules don't say the spell must be cast in the round immediately after you gain that experience, and I don't think it's game breaking to allow the character to save xp. If you don't then it becomes impossible to create a Tome of Understanding +5 until you're 26th level, which is just silly. Like I mentioned earlier, this should be a moot point, since the keep you get from the deck isn't worth 200,000g (it's worth 70,000. I checked last night). It's a lot harder to abuse 35,000g than it is to abuse 200,000g.
Dargeth 04-06-04, 01:08 PM	I've look into the reply posted here, and personnally I have given that card to one of my player who was about 10th level. What I did, was to ask him before hand what he would do if he got a small keep (which if I remember correctly os around 50 000 gp). Since he was ready to own a keep, I give him the card that will give him one. I would not have give him that card if I wasn't sure he would keep it. And the price of the keep is shouldn't be that expensive. We built the keep according to the Stronghold builder, and I've allow him to spend more the the actual 50 000 gp allowance.
TheGogmagog 04-06-04, 02:02 PM	To the original question, I would use money to buy 5 wishes (cast /scroll 144,125gp / tomb 137,500gp) in whatever way your DM will allow to boost your charisma. Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000gp). Bag of holding IV (10,000). Stone horse, destrier (14,8000). My decisions would vary depending on the campaign and character, but assuming a min/max caster in general camaign, that's what I'd go for.
greenlocus 04-08-04, 03:45 PM	Originally posted by Hot Rod From the greenlocus's post, I'm guessing the DM wants him to take the 200K rather than dealing with the keep. Buying Wish spells is probably the best way to go. (5gp/xp + cost of a 9th level spell) or buy scrolls of it if you can't find a caster that can cast 5 at once. A task that is difficult at best, 25K xp (5 wishes) is more than enough to go from level 19 to 20. Your DM might be grateful for not outfitting the entire party in awesome magic items (or just yourself) and arrange for it to happen. where can i find this formula for spell cost in the core books? like what page and what book thanks
Beamup 04-08-04, 04:09 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer The rules DO support the ability to forego levelling and use that experience to cast spells. The rules don't say the spell must be cast in the round immediately after you gain that experience, and I don't think it's game breaking to allow the character to save xp. If you don't then it becomes impossible to create a Tome of Understanding +5 until you're 26th level, which is just silly. Unfortunately, he's approximately right. I quote to you page 88 of the PHB: A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level. So it's pretty clear that you can't just stock it up - you have to "immediately" put the XP into an item if you don't want to level up. However, I don't know of any rule saying you have to expend the XP to create an item all at once. AFAICT, it'd be perfectly legit to hit 171k XP, then immediately put 18k of that towards a Tome +5, providing the other 7,500 to complete it later. greenlocus: PHB pages 129 and 132.
Dargeth 04-08-04, 04:20 PM	I've been playing the 3rd édition since it came out, and what we do for the required needed xp to create item is quite simple. we say what xp we put into increasing our level & what we put aside to create an item. The xp that are put aside, cannot be use to level up. I don't remember where it is and in which book to find that. But doing it that way, you can create an item as soon as you have all the pre-requisite for it. It just that you do not gain level as fast as the other player.
Dargeth 04-08-04, 04:23 PM	Originally posted by greenlocus where can i find this formula for spell cost in the core books? like what page and what book thanks at the end of the 3rd edition dongeon master guide, you have all the info needed to cost an item, and you can find in the section for hiring help in the same book. it around the middle of the book.
pyk 04-08-04, 05:14 PM	A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level. Here's the problem with this. It flies in the face of the variant rules which allow for training and mentors. How does one do this in the middle of a dungeon where training is not available, if you must immediately level up when you recieve experience? Doesn't matter, anyway.
Beamup 04-08-04, 05:22 PM	Originally posted by pyk Here's the problem with this. It flies in the face of the variant rules which allow for training and mentors. How does one do this in the middle of a dungeon where training is not available, if you must immediately level up when you recieve experience? Doesn't matter, anyway. I could say one of two things: - Variant rules often require other changes. - You simply have to make the decision as soon as you get the XP. Either of which is more than adequate to show there is no contradiction.
Seeker95 04-08-04, 08:22 PM	Originally posted by greenlocus where can i find this formula for spell cost in the core books? like what page and what book Spell Pricing is found in the Equipment section of the 3.5 Player's Handbook, page 129. Table 7-8: GOODS and SERVICES Spellcasting and Services It is repeated and expanded upon in the 3.5 DMG page 107. NPC SPELLCASTING