Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Novacat 01-12-06, 04:19 AM	I had an idea for my 18th level sorcerer (including Archmage levels), and am wondering if it's legal (as it seems too good to be true): Archmage's Spelll-like Ability as High Arcana, getting Disintegrate 2 feats: Empower Spell-like Ability and Maximize Spell-like Ability Calculating as follows: 216 (CL 18 times 2d6 maximized) 36 (CL 18 times 2d6) times 3.5 (average) times one-half (Empowered) = 63 So twice a day, I can inflict an average of 279 damage, assuming the target fails its fortitude save. Is this right, or am I missing some obscure rule that disallows it? It seems a bit on the zomgwtfuber side, but I'm not normally one who is known for making "effective" characters.
Seeker of Undeath 01-12-06, 04:25 AM	Let's see...2d6/CL. At CL 18? 18*2d6=36d6 36*3.5=126 126*1.5=189 That's Empowered only. Now... 36*6=216 216*1.5=324 And that'd be 45 [5d6 or 30 multiplied by 1.5] damage on a successful save. Best use Ability Focus or something. I'd feel really crappy if the target made its save...
Novacat 01-12-06, 04:30 AM	When applying both Maximized and Empowered, you take the maximized number (in this case, 216), and add 50% of the normal, rolled damage.
MasterOfPsychic 01-12-06, 04:39 AM	How does max/emp spell like abillity work? However, as a dm, I would tell you to sarefice a spellslot equal the the spell (including metamagic) you want to cast. That would require you to sacrefice a level 11 spellslot... I didn't konw that you had one... And it would be 0 damage on a sucessfull save, if the target got mettle... And that is not harder to get than a wish etc. or two hexblade levels...
was_fired 01-12-06, 05:26 AM	Maximize and Empower Spell-like allow you to perform the said feat three times per day on whatever spell-like ability that you select. The restriction is that you must have a CL X levels higher than the requirement for the spell. Since the feats do not mention increasing the level in respect to each other this is legal. This isn't very powerful though as the DC would still only be 16 + Ability Modifier, 18 + Ability Mod with ability focus. This requires you burn 3 feats to gain a 6th level save or die spell. Note: Spell Focus does not benefit spell-like abilities so in effect taking ability focus: Spell-like abilities is only marginally more effective than taking Spell Focus Transmution and simply casting the spell.
runestar 01-12-06, 06:58 AM	There is however, a spell-like ability focus in races of faerun. I am not sure if it has been errata'ed, since it gave +2 to a SLA's save back then. But still, its a very expensive combo, especially since you are burning your 15th and 18th lv slots to do it. Sorta like a 1-trick pony.... :(
DarknessEternal 01-12-06, 09:43 AM	No, the average damage is going to be 30+5d6/2, or 38 total average damage. Nothing will fail a save on anyting except a natural 1 by the time you can actually use this trick.
Al2902 01-12-06, 10:18 AM	Yep, sounds fine. I don't think it's too powerful - Finger of Death is a 7th level spell and will kill anything outright if it fails its Fortitude save, and without the need for a RTA. Given that you're 18th level, your capability for killing stuff isn't hugely impacted by the two super-disintegrates/day.
Archtyrant Terevoth 01-12-06, 12:53 PM	Basically disintegrate is a watered down save or die effect. Consider that anything failing a save versus finger of death takes potentially infinite damage. Compared to infinity, 279 just doesn't seem like a heck of a lot.
Zherog 01-12-06, 01:24 PM	I honestly don't think 279 damage at 18th level is game breaking.
Marcus Majarra 01-12-06, 01:25 PM	I had an idea for my 18th level sorcerer (including Archmage levels), and am wondering if it's legal (as it seems too good to be true): Archmage's Spelll-like Ability as High Arcana, getting Disintegrate 2 feats: Empower Spell-like Ability and Maximize Spell-like Ability Calculating as follows: 216 (CL 18 times 2d6 maximized) 36 (CL 18 times 2d6) times 3.5 (average) times one-half (Empowered) = 63 So twice a day, I can inflict an average of 279 damage, assuming the target fails its fortitude save. Is this right, or am I missing some obscure rule that disallows it? It seems a bit on the zomgwtfuber side, but I'm not normally one who is known for making "effective" characters. This seems legitimate to me. But it's not overpowered.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-12-06, 05:07 PM	Disintegrate caps at 25d6 damage, doesn't it?
tarkin 01-12-06, 05:18 PM	I agree, Save negates /save for partial effects frankly do not matter when you maximize/empower them. Maximize/Empower are really only usefull/powerfull/abusive for Save for 1/2 effects.
Igairsx 01-12-06, 08:10 PM	If damage per spell is what you are after go for greater harm maximized as a cleric. It is 1d12, so thats 240 at 20th level. And that only takes one metamagic feat. Twin spell it again or empower and you got more. Speaking of disintegrate...use split ray maximized. Some argue that only one ray is maximized but you can talk that over with your DM. I personally see both being maximized. Or, maximize a twinned split ray.
smrtgmp 01-12-06, 10:46 PM	Disintegrate caps at 25d6 damage, doesn't it?No. It caps at 40d6. If it was 25d6, it would cap almost immediately.
Marcus Majarra 01-12-06, 10:50 PM	If damage per spell is what you are after go for greater harm maximized as a cleric. It is 1d12, so thats 240 at 20th level. And that only takes one metamagic feat. Twin spell it again or empower and you got more. Speaking of disintegrate...use split ray maximized. Some argue that only one ray is maximized but you can talk that over with your DM. I personally see both being maximized. Or, maximize a twinned split ray. Split Ray is fully compatible with both Maximize and Twin. The only two metamagics that aren't fully compatible with one another are Maximize and Empower.
Vanigo 01-13-06, 02:02 AM	If damage per spell is what you are after go for greater harm maximized as a cleric. It is 1d12, so thats 240 at 20th level. And that only takes one metamagic feat. Twin spell it again or empower and you got more. Speaking of disintegrate...use split ray maximized. Some argue that only one ray is maximized but you can talk that over with your DM. I personally see both being maximized. Or, maximize a twinned split ray. Or you could go for a chained vengance halo, which is capable of doing as much as 15d6+(300d6)/2 damage at 20th level. Tack on a greater rod of maximization, and you can fry a great wyrm red dragon with a single spell.
Kessalin Talira 01-13-06, 02:30 AM	Grab Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species, and convert the Disintegrate SLA into a (Su) ability, thereby eliminating spell resistance. :devil:
runestar 01-13-06, 03:35 AM	Its not really the problem of sr I am worried about, but rather, the crap fortsave: partial effect. :( Also, if you are taking the meta-SLA feats at lv15 and 18, this means you have to pick disintergrate to be made into a SLA before then, at lv15 max. This means you can only choose to use it 2/day, rather than 4/day, since you have no 9th lv slots to sac. It would seem wasted then, since the meta-SLA feats grant uses of 3/day. If you pick the ability and feat at lv18, you can only have either maximise or empower SLA, but not both. :(
Jaaz 01-13-06, 04:12 AM	Reading the feats for Empower and Maximize Spell-Like ability (Monster Manual and Complete Arcane respectively) they do effectively save you spell levels when the feats are used on the ability from the way the formula works. However, the way it's worded might throw you for a loop. Effectively they function as 3/day (or less if the ability can only be used 1 or 2 times/day) metamagic feats on the spell, each of which increases the level by only 2. The formula in the feats for limits on casting with the feats (1/2 caster level -2) is the same as if they were sorcerers and applying a +2 metamagic to the spell. If you're caster level can't support the level of the spell generated, you can't apply the feat and it's cast normally. In fact, you may not be able to learn the feat at all, since they both require you to select the spell like ability to apply it to. (like weapon focus) Thus, Disinitegrate, being 6th level, would effectively be an 8th level spell with one of these feats applied, thus your caster level would need to be 16th (like the chart on page 304, Monster Manual), and to apply both would require a CL of 20 before you took the second feat (which would have to be done at level 21 since there's no sorc feat at level 20). ...Now, you could technically, as a sorc with Archmage levels, take your 18th level feat as Maximize spell-like ability, giving you (at that level) 2 shots/day of 6*36=216 damage (30 on a save) to one target at a time. If that's appealing to you, go for it. Depending on the level of your build, you may not have the maximize feat at the point you're planning on playing, but basically because you are restricted on what levels you can gain the spell-like ability versus the level where you can take the feat, you don't gain the ability to use a maximized disintigrate any earlier than you normally would get it. Alternately, if you saved getting the spell-like until character level 18, you could sack a 9th level slot, get the spell 4/day and then take maximize spell-like the same level for it so you get 3/day maxed. Plus the ability ALSO costs a 5th level slot. It's a good combo, but kinda pricey and very late-game. Just remember that RAW, you can only apply one of the two feats at a time unless you're in epic levels or somehow manage to fenaggle a general feat for your 20th level.
Marcus Majarra 01-13-06, 02:12 PM	Just remember that RAW, you can only apply one of the two feats at a time unless you're in epic levels or somehow manage to fenaggle a general feat for your 20th level. This is based on an assumption that metamagic spell-like ability feats work in the same fashion than metamagic spell feats in that using the metamagic spell would require as much effort as using a higher-level spell. This assumption, however, is unfounded. Spell-like abilities affected by metamagic are not treated as spell effects of higher level and certainly do not require more effort on the creature's part than what's provided by the metamagic spell-like ability feat. As such, the OP example is quite valid in pre-epic. There are other instances in which metamagic effects come without a higher spell-level cost. Such as when employing a metamagic rod. Metamagic rods explicitly state that they do not change a spell's level. An arcane caster with the ability to cast the Disintegrate could very well use a standard Metamagic Maximize Rod and a standard Metamagic Empower Rod to use both metamagic effects in conjunction with the same casting of Disintegrate (and just to prevent the irrelevant argument that the caster only has two arms, assume that he has enough arms to hold each rod and cast the spell; such as when receiving a Girallon's Blessing spell). The spell still requires a 6th-level slot and is treated as a 6th-level spell for all purposes.
Jaaz 01-13-06, 07:09 PM	The feats point IS founded. Empower Spell-Like Ability and Maximize Spell-Like Ability BOTH have the text in them stating the same forumla for selecting which Spell-Like to take the feat for. From the MM under Empower Spell-Like Ability: The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to half it's caster level (round down) -2. It then refers you to the chart on the following page. In Complete Arcane, page 81, the only text change is "-2" to "minus 2" under Maximize Spell-Like Ability. It also refers you to the chart in the Monster Manual. Since these use the same mechanic, working with effective spell levels on a bases of the creature's caster level, the two should stack just like metamagic feats for determining if the creature is powerful enough to offload BOTH feats on the given SPA. You could learn both (if you found a way) when you qualify for the feat at 16th level, but your caster level should be insufficient to offload both feats on it at one casting. Now even if you don't agree to the logical stacking of caster level calculations, you do have to wait until caster level 16 to be able to take the feat for the 6th level spell, disintegrate. That's in the chart. But since there's no feat at that level, level 18 is the first opportunity. To be able to take the second feat (which is general) your next opportunity to take it would be 21st level anyways, at which point the argument is moot cause you're already Epic. And on Metamagic rods: Yes, they don't alter the level. No, you can only use one at a time on any particular casting of a spell. It's a limitation in the item text. (DMG pg 236) But my arguement doesn't center around changing the spells level. Doing the math based on sorcerer caster level progression (can cast spells of 1/2 class level - rounded down, like the SPA feats), and the addition of -2 in the text means that you can only apply the feats to an SLA if you could normally cast that level of spell with the +2 level modifier. Examples: Sorc/Archmage. 12/4:CL 16, can only cast 8th level spells, takes SLA:Polar Ray (8th level) and sacks the 5th level slot and the 8th level slot. Continuing the levelup; 13/5:CL 18, can now cast 9th level spells, takes SLA:Disintegrate (6th level) and boosts it to 4/day by sacking one of the new 9th level slots and a 5th level slot. They choose their feat at this level. They want to maximize Polar Ray (for some bizarre reason) so they run the math to see if they can. half their CL (18/2=9) -2 (9-2=7). Since Polar Ray is 8th level, they can't take Maximize SLA for that SLA this level, but their new Disintegrate is 6th, so they take the feat for that instead. 16/5CL 21, can still only cast 9th level without a feat, but capable of 10th. They're finding Polar Ray more useful these days, so they run the math again for it. 21/2=10.5, rounded=10, 10-2=8. They could do it now, but adding extra punch to a 40d6 maxed Ray is also appealing. They already qualify for the Empower SLA feat on their Disintegrate, but to use them both at once? Round Down(21/2)=10-4=6. So yes, they're at a level where they could take and use BOTH feats on the SLA. If the sorc were only say, CL 19, then they shouldn't be allowed to use both, but could take both feats (if you found a way) and use them individually. Since they both use the same mechanic between the two, the -2 should apply for both feats to the max SLA SL you can possibly modify. However, without jaunting over to the CO boards to pick their brains on this, you can't get both feats on the same SLA for disintegrate simply because both general feats and the first time you can learn one for SLA:disintegrate is level 18.
BW0222 01-13-06, 07:50 PM	>So twice a day, I can inflict an average of 279 damage, assuming the >target fails its fortitude save. From the DMG (p.81) appropriate 18th-level dungeon encounters would include: 3-6 astral devas, 1-3 pantetars, a very old black dragon, an one blue or green dragon, a mature red or silver dragon, an ancient white dragon, a nightshade, 1-3 15-level half-orc barbarians and a 15th-level human bard, 15th-level kobold sorcer and a wearwolf lord, etc. Assume the ancient white dragon. She 375 hit points, SR 24, and +23 to her fort saves. It has a 25% chance of ignoring the spell (SR 24 vs. 18th-level caster) and about a 95% chance of saving (10 + 6 (spell level) + 8 (int) = 24) -- taking only 30+(5d6)*0.5 = 39 points of damage. Thus, the chance it takes 279 points of damage is 0.75*0.05 = 3.75%. I honestly doubt most 18th-level characters would risk their characters on a tactic less than 4% likely to actually hurt something -- especially considering that your wizard is unlikely to survive the dragon's counter attack.
Novacat 01-13-06, 11:13 PM	In regards to the usefulness of such a setup, my sorcerer has Ppell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, and took Spell Power on a previous level of Archmage. So my caster level checks to bypass SR is 1d20 + 22. Also, in regards the feat dilemma, my character is a special case. He's receiving pseudo-levels of wizard at the same time as he levels in sorcerer and archmage. These pseudo-levels grant everything normally gained by wizard levels except the bonus feats and HP. They do grant skill points, saves, spellcasting, and feats as though my HD were increased. DM's idea, not mine, and ties into my character's storyline (his old master, who is an ancient and powerful wizard, is resurrecting himself within my sorcerer, slowly granting his own power to me and then he will take over the body). The whole reason I set this thing up was for fighting undead. I'll be in the Astral Plane when I get a chance to use it, fighting Githyanki, both living and otherwise, so it will be Quickened as well.
Marcus Majarra 01-14-06, 01:35 AM	The feats point IS founded. Empower Spell-Like Ability and Maximize Spell-Like Ability BOTH have the text in them stating the same forumla for selecting which Spell-Like to take the feat for. From the MM under Empower Spell-Like Ability: It then refers you to the chart on the following page. In Complete Arcane, page 81, the only text change is "-2" to "minus 2" under Maximize Spell-Like Ability. It also refers you to the chart in the Monster Manual. Since these use the same mechanic, working with effective spell levels on a bases of the creature's caster level, the two should stack just like metamagic feats for determining if the creature is powerful enough to offload BOTH feats on the given SPA. You could learn both (if you found a way) when you qualify for the feat at 16th level, but your caster level should be insufficient to offload both feats on it at one casting. Now even if you don't agree to the logical stacking of caster level calculations, you do have to wait until caster level 16 to be able to take the feat for the 6th level spell, disintegrate. That's in the chart. But since there's no feat at that level, level 18 is the first opportunity. To be able to take the second feat (which is general) your next opportunity to take it would be 21st level anyways, at which point the argument is moot cause you're already Epic. And on Metamagic rods: Yes, they don't alter the level. No, you can only use one at a time on any particular casting of a spell. It's a limitation in the item text. (DMG pg 236) But my arguement doesn't center around changing the spells level. Doing the math based on sorcerer caster level progression (can cast spells of 1/2 class level - rounded down, like the SPA feats), and the addition of -2 in the text means that you can only apply the feats to an SLA if you could normally cast that level of spell with the +2 level modifier. Examples: Sorc/Archmage. 12/4:CL 16, can only cast 8th level spells, takes SLA:Polar Ray (8th level) and sacks the 5th level slot and the 8th level slot. Continuing the levelup; 13/5:CL 18, can now cast 9th level spells, takes SLA:Disintegrate (6th level) and boosts it to 4/day by sacking one of the new 9th level slots and a 5th level slot. They choose their feat at this level. They want to maximize Polar Ray (for some bizarre reason) so they run the math to see if they can. half their CL (18/2=9) -2 (9-2=7). Since Polar Ray is 8th level, they can't take Maximize SLA for that SLA this level, but their new Disintegrate is 6th, so they take the feat for that instead. 16/5CL 21, can still only cast 9th level without a feat, but capable of 10th. They're finding Polar Ray more useful these days, so they run the math again for it. 21/2=10.5, rounded=10, 10-2=8. They could do it now, but adding extra punch to a 40d6 maxed Ray is also appealing. They already qualify for the Empower SLA feat on their Disintegrate, but to use them both at once? Round Down(21/2)=10-4=6. So yes, they're at a level where they could take and use BOTH feats on the SLA. If the sorc were only say, CL 19, then they shouldn't be allowed to use both, but could take both feats (if you found a way) and use them individually. Since they both use the same mechanic between the two, the -2 should apply for both feats to the max SLA SL you can possibly modify. However, without jaunting over to the CO boards to pick their brains on this, you can't get both feats on the same SLA for disintegrate simply because both general feats and the first time you can learn one for SLA:disintegrate is level 18. While I still don't agree that applying both feats on the same casting would require a higher caster level (there are no grounds for having that CL requirement stack since the spell's level - or effective level - doesn't change), I will however concede that there is a conflict in the number of available feats by level 18, since as you pointed out, the archmage would become eligible for either feat starting at level 16. And I'm sorry I missed that sentence on metamagic rods. There's still a valid example on metamagic stacking without increasing the spell level with metamagic rods and sudden metamagic feats.
Jaaz 01-14-06, 03:04 PM	In regards to the usefulness of such a setup, my sorcerer has Ppell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, and took Spell Power on a previous level of Archmage. So my caster level checks to bypass SR is 1d20 + 22. Also, in regards the feat dilemma, my character is a special case. He's receiving pseudo-levels of wizard at the same time as he levels in sorcerer and archmage. These pseudo-levels grant everything normally gained by wizard levels except the bonus feats and HP. They do grant skill points, saves, spellcasting, and feats as though my HD were increased. DM's idea, not mine, and ties into my character's storyline (his old master, who is an ancient and powerful wizard, is resurrecting himself within my sorcerer, slowly granting his own power to me and then he will take over the body). The whole reason I set this thing up was for fighting undead. I'll be in the Astral Plane when I get a chance to use it, fighting Githyanki, both living and otherwise, so it will be Quickened as well. So it sounds like you're getting half gestalt levels without the 'special' column of the Wizard. Sounds like the DM's also pretty lax, so you probably could get away with both feats (and use em) at level 18 when you get them. Quickening it would have to wait for the 21st level feat then.
Igairsx 01-17-06, 01:10 AM	a hierophant can get the special ability to have his negative energy spells maximized without taking a higher level spell slot. OK, let's take a greater harm, which would automatically become maximized at 240 at 20th level. Now, split ray it with a twin spell. If you want to get really crazy, get improvd critical: ray, then get power critical: ray, which allows you to have to roll a 15 for the critical threat confirmation. woot! Imagine having quicken spell, and then getting "Multispell" epic metamagic like 2-3 time so that one could cast 4 of these spells, which would be 8 rays...dang...now come on, at least one of those suckers is gonna be a critical hit...that maxes out at "hurt my head its so much" damage!
Jaaz 01-17-06, 07:54 PM	a hierophant can get the special ability to have his negative energy spells maximized without taking a higher level spell slot. OK, let's take a greater harm, which would automatically become maximized at 240 at 20th level. Now, split ray it with a twin spell. If you want to get really crazy, get improvd critical: ray, then get power critical: ray, which allows you to have to roll a 15 for the critical threat confirmation. woot! Imagine having quicken spell, and then getting "Multispell" epic metamagic like 2-3 time so that one could cast 4 of these spells, which would be 8 rays...dang...now come on, at least one of those suckers is gonna be a critical hit...that maxes out at "hurt my head its so much" damage! This is a little off-topic, but... Actually, Harm caps out at 150 HP unless they publish Mass Harm that functions like Mass Heal somewhere, that and you'd have to use Reach Spell (Complete Divine, pg 84) for +2 levels on Harm to be able to use Split Ray for another +2 levels on it. Then Twinning it would take another 4 levels, Quicken adds another 4 levels. So, assuming it worked that all the metamagics worked on the new ray version after Reach Spell is applied, Twin Spell for a copy (2 rays) and then Split Ray applies (3 rays). 3 Rays each doing 150 damage each. The Heirophant ability doesn't count towards Harm since the spell deals a flat 10/cast level, capping at 150. But let's examine what it would take to deal out 450 negative energy damage with 3 saves for potential halving. First, spell level: 6+2+2+4+4=18th level spell. But worry not, for this is possible by 28th level. Feats: Human:Reach Spell 1st: Split Ray 3rd: Extra Turning 6th: Extra Turning 9th: Twin Spell 12th: Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell) 15th: Quicken Spell 18th: Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell) 21st: Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) 23rd: Extra Turning 24th: Extra turning* 26th: Divine Metamagic (Split Ray) 27th: Extra Turning* *'s could be free feats. With the 2 Extra Turning feats at the end there, this cleric would have 23+cha mod turn attempts/day, which could be spent up to 16 at a time to achieve the Quickened Reaching Twinned Split Ray Harm (or 13 at a time if you spent an 8th level slot to pay for either Reach or Split Ray normally). Plus, not to mention they could be spent individually as well, like spending 10 attempts to instead Quicken Twin Miracle
Igairsx 01-18-06, 07:36 AM	im not talking about harm. I am talking about greater harm. It is 1d12. There is mass harm but it is only useful for healing undead, not doing damage. Also, this is a ranged touch attack so you're looking at a free maximized applied for 20d12 at 20th level. +4 twinned, +2 split ray...for /12th level spell. Not too shabby. If you get Dweomerkeeper, you can have one metamagic level decreased per spell...making it a 10th level spell...deep bow...thank you