3 Magic Item questions for the experts... [Archive] - Wizards Community

3 Magic Item questions for the experts... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cthulhu42
03-23-04, 05:33 AM I'm sure this has been asked before, but: Why are rings different from every other piece of jewlery when it comes to magic item creation?

It's not as if rings are inherantly more powerful than say, neclaces, amulets, headbands, bracers or braclets. And it's also not as if magical rings can function in a manner that's better than "wonderous" items.

I'd take a Amulet of Natural Armor over a Ring of Protection +1 any day.

So why the heck do you have to be 12th level to forge rings, while any fool that can survive to 3rd level can take Craft Wonderous Item?

Second question: Anybody care to take a stab at the price/cost of an item that would infer upon it's wearer the benefits of the Precise Shot feat? It could be almost any worn item, though gloves might be an appropriate medium.

Heres another: In the Draconomicon there is a shield which enables the holder to invoke an anti-magic field around himself once per day. I'm wondering what sort of bonus that would be considered if applied to a weapon.

Unfortunatly I don't have the book with me right now, but I believe the base market price for the shield was around 26,000 to 28,000 and change.
Boondoggle
03-23-04, 06:42 AM Second question: Anybody care to take a stab at the price/cost of an item that would infer upon it's wearer the benefits of the Precise Shot feat? It could be almost any worn item, though gloves might be an appropriate medium.

Take a peek at the bracers of archery. I suggest pricing an item that grants the feat along the lines of the greater bracers.
Seeker95
03-23-04, 08:00 AM 1. Why Rings?
Tradition. Mythology and literature abound with magic rings. The One Ring, The White Gold Ring (Donaldson series), rings of wishes, etc. So, with such a tradition in the background, it made sense to treat them separately.

That said, I agree, there is no really good game-mechanics reason for rings to be treated differently than necklaces in magic item creation.

2. Precise Shot Item
Negates the -4 penalty when shooting into melee. (equates to a +4 circumstance bonus). I would price it as a weapon bonus at 25% cost. It is not the same as a weapon bonus, since it does not affect damage and it only applies to shooting into melee. 4 x 4 x 2000 x .25 = 8,000gp.

If applied directly to a ranged weapon, then it is a +1 enhancement equivalent.

3. Weapon of Anti-magic once/day
Same as the cost of the anti-magic shield.
HoshiAdam
03-23-04, 08:13 AM The base is a +1 tower shield, and the cost is 27580. Subtracting the +1 tower shield leaves a cost of 26400.

The item creation rules for a 1/day antimagic field that is command word activated give a cost of 23760, which is lower than expected. A use-activated version gives a cost of 26400 also, which means the item should be a free action to activate.

I agree with Seeker's pricing about the bracers.

If you don't like craft ring, roll it into craft wondrous item. I have done that IMCs.
Seeker95
03-23-04, 10:40 AM Houserule Alert:

I have changed the Craft rules around a little. Rings is no longer a separate Item Creation Feat. However, in order to craft magical jewelry of any kind (necklace, broosh, ring, etc.) you have to have ranks in Craft: Jewelsmith (or whatever the word is that deals with jewelry in general). You must have a number of points in the skill as the CL of the item.

I do similar things with other items. It provides an opportunity for some of the less frequently used skills to come into active play, and explains why a wizard can't just crank out any item you can think of. It specialized item creation wizards, and allows for some adventure hooks as well. Want a periapt? Gotta find a wizard that can make 'em.
kreynolds
03-23-04, 10:47 AM Originally posted by cthulhu42
Second question: Anybody care to take a stab at the price/cost of an item that would infer upon it's wearer the benefits of the Precise Shot feat? It could be almost any worn item, though gloves might be an appropriate medium.

Precise, Page 140, Magic of Faerun.
UZI
03-23-04, 12:53 PM IIRC Precise is a +1 enhancement in the Arms & Equipment Guide, and provides no additional benefits if you already have Precise Shot.

Rings have two major differences over other magic items.

1) you can wear two of them

2) pricing a bit whacky (body slot affinity not listed for rings)

For example:
Ring of Blink: 27000gp = 3rd Level spell * 5th Level Caster * 1800 Command Word. Calculated as if it were a properly slotted item.

Telekinesis: 75000gp < (81000gp = 5th level spell * 9th level caster * 1800 command word). Actually costs less than a properly slotted command word item.

Only Invisibility is priced anywhere near the double cost for improperly slotted item.
kreynolds
03-23-04, 12:56 PM Originally posted by UZI
IIRC Precise is a +1 enhancement in the Arms & Equipment Guide...

Yup. It's in there as well, page 97.
Luminous Crayon
03-23-04, 07:19 PM Mechanically, rings have a particular benefit. They aren't associated with any particular body slot affinity (or rather, they're simultaneously associated with all of them.) Long story short, you can make just about any wearable item "ring-shaped" with the Forge Ring feat, without it costing 150% of the normal price. Want both Bracers of Armor and Bracers of Archery? Cloak of Resistance and Cape of the Mountebank? Make one into a ring, and you can wear both.

Is this price-saving advantage sufficient to justify a seperate item creation feat with a CL 12th prerequisite? In my opinion, no, it isn't.

My own houserule on the subject is rather simple: take Forge Ring, Craft Rod, and CWI, and combine them into one big, nonsensical mess. Let's face it, none of these feats made any sense, anyway. Why is any particular item a rod, and not a wondrous item? Because it's stick-shaped and doesn't have charges like a wand? Please.

Now, take all of that, and divide it into two categories: stuff you wear, and stuff you don't wear. CWI, Forge Ring, and Craft Rod are gone, replaced by the feats Craft Magic Garment and Craft Magic Trinket. All the rings, as well as things like Gloves of Dexterity and Cloaks of Resistance, are made with the Craft Magic Gauntlet feat, and all the Rods, and things like Dust of Disappearance, Bags of Holding, and Pearls of Power are made with the Craft Magic Trinket feat. Personally, I find this arrangement more intuitive, and it does quite a bit to weaken CWI's massive catchall monopoly on item creation.
mercurial67
03-23-04, 09:40 PM I can understand why it is a seperate item creation feat, but I don't understand why it requires CL 12 to take. There are already CL requirements for each ring, so why is there a seperate requirement for the feat? Why bother with having a CL 3 requirement for a ring of protection when you have to be CL 12 to forge the ring in the first place? As it stands, with a CL 12 requirement rings would be fairly scarce.

Mainly annoyed because I have a group of PCs wandering around with this ring they are going to give to someone to let him know they can be trusted. It was SUPPOSED to have been the first ring the guy ever forged, but it's a bit difficult to do that now since he's only 5th level. Maybe I'll just have to ignore it since he's an NPC.
UZI
03-23-04, 11:30 PM Those aren't level requirements. That's the caster level at which the spell effect operates. I believe the 3.5 DMG Errata finally cleared this up.
cthulhu42
03-24-04, 05:13 AM So do you think that a specific ring could be crafted into another form, such as Ring Of Wizardry into an Amulet of Wizardry? Or is there some reason I'm not aware of that the wizardry function can ONLY be placed into a ring?

By the way, I can hardly believe that the fact that rings don't take up body slots/the ability to wear two of them is worth the 12th level caster requierment.
Seeker95
03-24-04, 07:43 AM You're reading too much into it. The reason for all of it has already been given: tradition.

If you don't like the tradition, change it in your game.
UZI
03-24-04, 09:11 AM I wasn't trying to justify the CL12th Forge Ring requirement, I was just pointing out that there are differences between Rings and other items.

I don't feel strongly compelled to change this, though I do feel strongly (in my game) about collapsing it into another uber-feat. Whether there is a game-design/power-balance justification for the level requirement is a question I'll leave to the designers.

Personally, I believe ring forging could probably be a CL 9th feat. But I'm not feeling too strongly about changing it.
cthulhu42
03-24-04, 02:24 PM Well so, yes, but CAN you make an amulet of wizardry?
Darklion
03-24-04, 02:53 PM Arcana Unearthed, Monte Cook's alternate PHB, has revised the item creation feats into more general categories: Craft Constant Item, Craft Charged Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Single-Use Item, and Craft Spell Completion Item.

Aside from the weapons/armor category, it no longer matters what the base item is. If your item has charges, it uses the Craft Charged Item feat, regardless of whether the physical object is a ring, cloak, wand, staff, boots, or gloves. If your item provides a continual effect, you use Craft Constant Item, again regardless of the physical object being enhanced.
CuCulain42
03-24-04, 03:42 PM Originally posted by cthulhu42
Well so, yes, but CAN you make an amulet of wizardry?
Sure, nothing says you can't. In fact when I DM I'll use no standard items like that to throw my players off. The major difference is that you would not be able to wear a necklace of three wishes too. Like UZI said you can wear two rings, all tradition aside.
DungeonMaster
03-29-04, 08:00 PM Originally posted by cthulhu42
I'd take a Amulet of Natural Armor over a Ring of Protection +1 any day.

I wouldn't. A ring gives you a deflection bonus to AC compared to a natural armor bonus. A deflection bonus raises your touch AC. So even if you have a +5 amulet of natural armor a +5 ring is invariably better - even moreso at the higher levels of the game.
HoshiAdam
03-31-04, 04:53 PM IMC, I collapsed the feats down to fewer in number. Basically as follows:
Craft Potions and Scrolls
Craft Wands and Staffs
Craft Arms, Armor, and Rods
Craft Rings and Wondrous Items

Rods got folded into arms and Armor since a bunch of them can be used as weapons also. Wands and Staffs are both charge-limited items, so they made sense to be one feat. Rings and Wondrous Items do a lot of the same thing, so they got folded into one.

I also removed the caster level pre-reqs, you just need to meet the caster level of the item to be able to make it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cthulhu42 03-23-04, 05:33 AM	I'm sure this has been asked before, but: Why are rings different from every other piece of jewlery when it comes to magic item creation? It's not as if rings are inherantly more powerful than say, neclaces, amulets, headbands, bracers or braclets. And it's also not as if magical rings can function in a manner that's better than "wonderous" items. I'd take a Amulet of Natural Armor over a Ring of Protection +1 any day. So why the heck do you have to be 12th level to forge rings, while any fool that can survive to 3rd level can take Craft Wonderous Item? Second question: Anybody care to take a stab at the price/cost of an item that would infer upon it's wearer the benefits of the Precise Shot feat? It could be almost any worn item, though gloves might be an appropriate medium. Heres another: In the Draconomicon there is a shield which enables the holder to invoke an anti-magic field around himself once per day. I'm wondering what sort of bonus that would be considered if applied to a weapon. Unfortunatly I don't have the book with me right now, but I believe the base market price for the shield was around 26,000 to 28,000 and change.
Boondoggle 03-23-04, 06:42 AM	Second question: Anybody care to take a stab at the price/cost of an item that would infer upon it's wearer the benefits of the Precise Shot feat? It could be almost any worn item, though gloves might be an appropriate medium. Take a peek at the bracers of archery. I suggest pricing an item that grants the feat along the lines of the greater bracers.
Seeker95 03-23-04, 08:00 AM	1. Why Rings? Tradition. Mythology and literature abound with magic rings. The One Ring, The White Gold Ring (Donaldson series), rings of wishes, etc. So, with such a tradition in the background, it made sense to treat them separately. That said, I agree, there is no really good game-mechanics reason for rings to be treated differently than necklaces in magic item creation. 2. Precise Shot Item Negates the -4 penalty when shooting into melee. (equates to a +4 circumstance bonus). I would price it as a weapon bonus at 25% cost. It is not the same as a weapon bonus, since it does not affect damage and it only applies to shooting into melee. 4 x 4 x 2000 x .25 = 8,000gp. If applied directly to a ranged weapon, then it is a +1 enhancement equivalent. 3. Weapon of Anti-magic once/day Same as the cost of the anti-magic shield.
HoshiAdam 03-23-04, 08:13 AM	The base is a +1 tower shield, and the cost is 27580. Subtracting the +1 tower shield leaves a cost of 26400. The item creation rules for a 1/day antimagic field that is command word activated give a cost of 23760, which is lower than expected. A use-activated version gives a cost of 26400 also, which means the item should be a free action to activate. I agree with Seeker's pricing about the bracers. If you don't like craft ring, roll it into craft wondrous item. I have done that IMCs.
Seeker95 03-23-04, 10:40 AM	Houserule Alert: I have changed the Craft rules around a little. Rings is no longer a separate Item Creation Feat. However, in order to craft magical jewelry of any kind (necklace, broosh, ring, etc.) you have to have ranks in Craft: Jewelsmith (or whatever the word is that deals with jewelry in general). You must have a number of points in the skill as the CL of the item. I do similar things with other items. It provides an opportunity for some of the less frequently used skills to come into active play, and explains why a wizard can't just crank out any item you can think of. It specialized item creation wizards, and allows for some adventure hooks as well. Want a periapt? Gotta find a wizard that can make 'em.
kreynolds 03-23-04, 10:47 AM	Originally posted by cthulhu42 Second question: Anybody care to take a stab at the price/cost of an item that would infer upon it's wearer the benefits of the Precise Shot feat? It could be almost any worn item, though gloves might be an appropriate medium. Precise, Page 140, Magic of Faerun.
UZI 03-23-04, 12:53 PM	IIRC Precise is a +1 enhancement in the Arms & Equipment Guide, and provides no additional benefits if you already have Precise Shot. Rings have two major differences over other magic items. 1) you can wear two of them 2) pricing a bit whacky (body slot affinity not listed for rings) For example: Ring of Blink: 27000gp = 3rd Level spell * 5th Level Caster * 1800 Command Word. Calculated as if it were a properly slotted item. Telekinesis: 75000gp < (81000gp = 5th level spell * 9th level caster * 1800 command word). Actually costs less than a properly slotted command word item. Only Invisibility is priced anywhere near the double cost for improperly slotted item.
kreynolds 03-23-04, 12:56 PM	Originally posted by UZI IIRC Precise is a +1 enhancement in the Arms & Equipment Guide... Yup. It's in there as well, page 97.
Luminous Crayon 03-23-04, 07:19 PM	Mechanically, rings have a particular benefit. They aren't associated with any particular body slot affinity (or rather, they're simultaneously associated with all of them.) Long story short, you can make just about any wearable item "ring-shaped" with the Forge Ring feat, without it costing 150% of the normal price. Want both Bracers of Armor and Bracers of Archery? Cloak of Resistance and Cape of the Mountebank? Make one into a ring, and you can wear both. Is this price-saving advantage sufficient to justify a seperate item creation feat with a CL 12th prerequisite? In my opinion, no, it isn't. My own houserule on the subject is rather simple: take Forge Ring, Craft Rod, and CWI, and combine them into one big, nonsensical mess. Let's face it, none of these feats made any sense, anyway. Why is any particular item a rod, and not a wondrous item? Because it's stick-shaped and doesn't have charges like a wand? Please. Now, take all of that, and divide it into two categories: stuff you wear, and stuff you don't wear. CWI, Forge Ring, and Craft Rod are gone, replaced by the feats Craft Magic Garment and Craft Magic Trinket. All the rings, as well as things like Gloves of Dexterity and Cloaks of Resistance, are made with the Craft Magic Gauntlet feat, and all the Rods, and things like Dust of Disappearance, Bags of Holding, and Pearls of Power are made with the Craft Magic Trinket feat. Personally, I find this arrangement more intuitive, and it does quite a bit to weaken CWI's massive catchall monopoly on item creation.
mercurial67 03-23-04, 09:40 PM	I can understand why it is a seperate item creation feat, but I don't understand why it requires CL 12 to take. There are already CL requirements for each ring, so why is there a seperate requirement for the feat? Why bother with having a CL 3 requirement for a ring of protection when you have to be CL 12 to forge the ring in the first place? As it stands, with a CL 12 requirement rings would be fairly scarce. Mainly annoyed because I have a group of PCs wandering around with this ring they are going to give to someone to let him know they can be trusted. It was SUPPOSED to have been the first ring the guy ever forged, but it's a bit difficult to do that now since he's only 5th level. Maybe I'll just have to ignore it since he's an NPC.
UZI 03-23-04, 11:30 PM	Those aren't level requirements. That's the caster level at which the spell effect operates. I believe the 3.5 DMG Errata finally cleared this up.
cthulhu42 03-24-04, 05:13 AM	So do you think that a specific ring could be crafted into another form, such as Ring Of Wizardry into an Amulet of Wizardry? Or is there some reason I'm not aware of that the wizardry function can ONLY be placed into a ring? By the way, I can hardly believe that the fact that rings don't take up body slots/the ability to wear two of them is worth the 12th level caster requierment.
Seeker95 03-24-04, 07:43 AM	You're reading too much into it. The reason for all of it has already been given: tradition. If you don't like the tradition, change it in your game.
UZI 03-24-04, 09:11 AM	I wasn't trying to justify the CL12th Forge Ring requirement, I was just pointing out that there are differences between Rings and other items. I don't feel strongly compelled to change this, though I do feel strongly (in my game) about collapsing it into another uber-feat. Whether there is a game-design/power-balance justification for the level requirement is a question I'll leave to the designers. Personally, I believe ring forging could probably be a CL 9th feat. But I'm not feeling too strongly about changing it.
cthulhu42 03-24-04, 02:24 PM	Well so, yes, but CAN you make an amulet of wizardry?
Darklion 03-24-04, 02:53 PM	Arcana Unearthed, Monte Cook's alternate PHB, has revised the item creation feats into more general categories: Craft Constant Item, Craft Charged Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Single-Use Item, and Craft Spell Completion Item. Aside from the weapons/armor category, it no longer matters what the base item is. If your item has charges, it uses the Craft Charged Item feat, regardless of whether the physical object is a ring, cloak, wand, staff, boots, or gloves. If your item provides a continual effect, you use Craft Constant Item, again regardless of the physical object being enhanced.
CuCulain42 03-24-04, 03:42 PM	Originally posted by cthulhu42 Well so, yes, but CAN you make an amulet of wizardry? Sure, nothing says you can't. In fact when I DM I'll use no standard items like that to throw my players off. The major difference is that you would not be able to wear a necklace of three wishes too. Like UZI said you can wear two rings, all tradition aside.
DungeonMaster 03-29-04, 08:00 PM	Originally posted by cthulhu42 I'd take a Amulet of Natural Armor over a Ring of Protection +1 any day. I wouldn't. A ring gives you a deflection bonus to AC compared to a natural armor bonus. A deflection bonus raises your touch AC. So even if you have a +5 amulet of natural armor a +5 ring is invariably better - even moreso at the higher levels of the game.
HoshiAdam 03-31-04, 04:53 PM	IMC, I collapsed the feats down to fewer in number. Basically as follows: Craft Potions and Scrolls Craft Wands and Staffs Craft Arms, Armor, and Rods Craft Rings and Wondrous Items Rods got folded into arms and Armor since a bunch of them can be used as weapons also. Wands and Staffs are both charge-limited items, so they made sense to be one feat. Rings and Wondrous Items do a lot of the same thing, so they got folded into one. I also removed the caster level pre-reqs, you just need to meet the caster level of the item to be able to make it.