Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stuce 12-04-07, 11:17 PM	I've got a player that threw this at me. Looking at the rules it seems legit and I'm wondering if this was intentional or not. He calls it his "three round immortality". High level wizard, in a safe place, casts "astral projection" to create an astral body, "plane shift" to shift back to the prime material plane with a new astral body many miles form home, then "teleport" to get back home. Now he has a backup body he can use for as long as he likes and if he dies, no problem, he just wakes back up from suspended animation in his safe place and does it again. This seems broken but I can't RAW my way out of it... :confused: Help!
The_Cheeseman 12-05-07, 01:19 AM	Personally, I don't allow astral projections to enter the Material Plane, and attempting to do so simply ends the spell. However, I don't think there are any actuals rules that disallow this. In all actuality, it's not actually that broken. I mean, it really doesn't accomplish anything that a true resurrection, stasis clone, instant refuge, or similar failsafe spell couldn't. Plus, an astral projection is not native to the Material Plane, and would therefor be susceptible to spells like banishment and magic circle against [PC's alignment]. Heck, once you're level 17+ and throwing around multiple high-level spells like that, what harm could it actually do? It could actually be rather annoying, for if the character dies mid-combat, you cannot revive them with a revivify or some other kind of lossless resurrection effect to get them back into the action quickly.
Novacat 12-05-07, 04:03 AM	Heck, once you're level 17+ and throwing around multiple high-level spells like that, what harm could it actually do? It could actually be rather annoying, for if the character dies mid-combat, you cannot revive them with a revivify or some other kind of lossless resurrection effect to get them back into the action quickly. However, it's even better than lichdom, as far as self-preservation techniques go, since there's no loss of equipment, and no waiting period. Just make sure your body is safe and secure, and avoid Githyanki like the plague!
kuonji 12-05-07, 06:32 AM	So if this works, you leave the astral plane and form a new body, with equipment, on another plane. Can you then plane shift back home, poison yourself, die, return to your original body, then loot your poisoned body thus doubling your gear? Even if you can't return to where you left to go astral projecting, you could just as easily kill yourself on another plane, return to your body, plane shift to that plane and teleport to your corpse and loot it.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 09:56 AM	Or someone casting dispel magic on you, and it taking you out of the fight. Not to mention it's costly material component. -RW
Tordak 12-05-07, 10:29 AM	Yeh, I was beaten to it. Astral projection as a duration, any dispel that works will simply eliminate the astral body. A nice Mage's Disjunction will get rid of your friend in no time, as will any dispelling magic or ability, taking him out of the fight, and making him uterly useless to his team (well at least until he greater teleports back or spend 3 rounds doing it again, which means his friends are going to get a beating while he's away). Ok, It's cheaper than ressurection and does a better job, but it's easy to counter. And if it annoys you too much, his inactive body is pretty much defenseless; if kill, the character is killed, unless the fact that the materialise astral body receives special treatment on the material plane (which I'm pretty sure it doesn't). Enemies of the character learning of this will find the helpless body in suspended animation much easier to deal with. I suppose in a safe place means in a place where he no one can reach him but himself (like an alternate demi-plane created through genesis or the like).
larry_the_titan 12-05-07, 02:13 PM	4 walls of Iron could keep the character safe while doing it and he would not have to cast them every time either. The only problem is random battles. The player trying to pull this off would find himself out of luck if a random battle occured. The only thing that would remove the weakness in random combat would be to persist Astral Projection and there is only one class I know that might be able to pull that off. And wizard isn't it.
jaelis 12-05-07, 02:52 PM	The equipment thing is the really broken part of the idea. You could load yourself up with all the party's best items, do the astral projection trick, and end up with two copies of everything, the original and the copy. Maybe you don't need two copies of the fighter's +5 greatsword, but it's pretty handy for a lot of other things. Personally, I say that if you return to the original plane, the spell just ends.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 03:34 PM	Truthfully, I'm not entirely convinced you CAN come back to the plane you begin on. I know it doesn't say you can't, but your projection doesn't strike me as an actual copy of yourself, so much as a tangible projection. Basically, once you return, there is no body left to which you could loot. The dispel aspect also makes it seem as though you are nothing more than magical energy, with items being in turn nothing more than a visual representations of the ones you have, and their perceived abilities simply echoes of their true version. Thus if one party member died while they were in the astral with you, a body wouldn't remain, they would simply vanish, as their spirit would return to the shell. While this isn't stated one way or the other, I get the impression this is what the designers intended when calling the spell "projection". -RW
Rune_Munch 12-05-07, 03:34 PM	well what happens to the astral cord? should be an easy target for enemies.
rimble 12-05-07, 03:52 PM	I agree that you couldn't use this method to have two physical forms on the Material Plane, though I can't find a rule to back that up...but that just means he'll Plane Shift first to stash his body on some other plane, Astral Project, and then manifest on the Material Plane. Seems perfectly legit to me, really. His physical body is extremely exposed on the other plane, and there's always the chance of someone seeing and following the silver cord. I think it's a neat character concept to go setup home in Sigil or something and Astrally galavant around the Material Plane, hehe. Maybe give him a 1% chance per day/week/something that something spots the silvery cord...maybe that creature will care, maybe they won't... Or the easy answer, as above, I think enough Dispel Magic, Antimagic Field, etc mojo will have him singing a different tune.
Pennarin 12-05-07, 06:16 PM	Why would Plane Shift affect your astrally projected body? It would affect your material plane body...thus even though your physical body would appear on the other plane your projection might be forced to come back to your body if the destination plane has no connection to the astral (or the spell simply might fail).
Pitiless_Interfector 12-05-07, 07:43 PM	While no errata to the effect has been forthcoming, one can (and should) add the stipulation that if a projection ever winds up on the same plane as the original, for even the briefest instant, the spell immediately ends. Furthermore, the magical properties of the caster's gear are not "copied," but instead are "moved," i.e., the equipment left on his original form is suppressed [as if by dispel magic] for as long as the projection lasts (though if the original is removed from his body's possession or destroyed, the copy vanishes immediately as well), and if the projection is killed, ended by dispel magic or similar, or simply dumps his gear in his hidden Astral fortress before heading home, the copy immediately becomes a mundane item. Any "copy" brought onto the same plane as the original immediately disappears. And with that, the problem is solved.
ArcTan 12-05-07, 08:30 PM	Personally, I don't allow astral projections to enter the Material Plane, and attempting to do so simply ends the spell. However, I don't think there are any actuals rules that disallow this. Actually, I believe Manual of the Planes clarifies this is how it's supposed to work. In all actuality, it's not actually that broken. I mean, it really doesn't accomplish anything that a true resurrection, stasis clone, instant refuge, or similar failsafe spell couldn't. The main problem here is that you can insta-duplicate the PC's entire inventory, giving you unlimited free swag. It's also worth noting that astral projection is much cheaper than true res and much faster than clone (with no level loss). Plus, an astral projection is not native to the Material Plane, and would therefor be susceptible to spells like banishment and magic circle against [PC's alignment]. Actually, no. When the projection enters a plane outside the Astral, it forms a "new body" that is not, itself, an astral projection. MotP clarifies that this new body is treated as a native of the plane it was formed on. Heck, once you're level 17+ and throwing around multiple high-level spells like that, what harm could it actually do? It could actually be rather annoying, for if the character dies mid-combat, you cannot revive them with a revivify or some other kind of lossless resurrection effect to get them back into the action quickly. Again, main issue is the endless reduplication of stuff you can accomplish by casting the spell multiple times.
ArcTan 12-05-07, 08:33 PM	Why would Plane Shift affect your astrally projected body? It would affect your material plane body...thus even though your physical body would appear on the other plane your projection might be forced to come back to your body if the destination plane has no connection to the astral (or the spell simply might fail). Um... what? The post you're replying to is saying that you, the real you, goes and casts plane shift to go to some relatively safe other plane (like, I dunno, Arcadia), and then you cast astral projection to send a projection from Arcadia back to the Prime. There's no reason this shouldn't work by the rules.
ArcTan 12-05-07, 08:34 PM	well what happens to the astral cord? should be an easy target for enemies. The silver cord is indestructible except by specific means, like an Astral Storm or the silver swords of the Githyanki (and the secret by which those swords are made is the Gith's most prized secret, so much so that they'll ruthlessly hunt down anyone who has a stolen one).
Belkar 12-06-07, 03:21 PM	There's one or two nasty monsters that can cut a silver cord as well... But listen... the astral plane is infinite... The odds of one of these things - or a githyanki - running across your cord (with no body attached... just a cord running along) are pretty slim. And then, they have to decide to cut it, just "for the heck of it". Then what? Oh no! I'm transported back to my original body with no level loss! And since I'm a level 17 wiz, I'll just greater teleport back to where I was... But yeah - the danger here is equipment duplication. And perfectly legal by RAW.
Taren 12-06-07, 03:28 PM	I've got a player that threw this at me. Looking at the rules it seems legit and I'm wondering if this was intentional or not. Perhaps I am not seeing something that is quite obvious but doesn't astral projection allow you to manifest onto any plane why would you need plane shift? is there an errata that prevents you from manifesting onto the home plane? even if it does if you did it from a mordenkains magnificent mansion you wouldn't need plane shift right? or is planeshift needed to keep the duplicates of your gear? once the spell ends won't the items also disappear? another question that arises, would any bags of holding or portable holes that are duplicated open into the same space? or does it create a completely new item?
PhaedrusXY 12-06-07, 04:33 PM	Even if you don't allow the astral traveler to return to the same plane they projected from, and you say that their duplicate gear disappears if their new body is killed, it is still pretty broken. The spell explicitly states that any duplicate consumable items used while projecting do not use up charges from the real versions. So you could (for example) go out with a fistful of Scrolls of Wish, give your entire party a bunch of inherent bonuses to ability scores with them, and then return to your real body, and still have all the original Scrolls of Wish. Also, Nightmares can use Astral Projection at will as a SLA, and you can summon and control one with Lesser Planar Binding.
ArcTan 12-06-07, 07:41 PM	There's one or two nasty monsters that can cut a silver cord as well... But listen... the astral plane is infinite... "Infinite" is a weird term. According to sources like the XPH and MotP, the Astral Plane is more like no size at all. It's a plane of pure thought, and people get closer or farther away from each other based on their force of will and thinking about getting closer to the other location. (Kinda like The Matrix.) This is why the Astral Plane can be used for teleportation -- from the Astral Plane's perspective, all points on other planes are equidistant -- you just have to be able to think about a place to go there. Anyone who wants to find you on the Astral Plane and is familiar enough with it eventually will. The odds of one of these things - or a githyanki - running across your cord (with no body attached... just a cord running along) are pretty slim. And then, they have to decide to cut it, just "for the heck of it". Githyanki specifically resent what they see as their home being invaded by outsiders, *especially* powerful spellcaster outsiders (who can cast astral projection). They're likely to destroy you as a threat and/or to take your valuable magical swag. I mean, that's what they invented their silver swords for in the first place. Astral Dreadnoughts and similar beasts of the Astral similarly enjoy attacking outsiders because, well, they're outsiders. (I think it's specifically said the Dreadnought gets energy from killing outsiders, though I could be wrong.) Then what? Oh no! I'm transported back to my original body with no level loss! And since I'm a level 17 wiz, I'll just greater teleport back to where I was... Actually, no. While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Cutting the silver cord means true death. That's why those silver swords are so valuable. But yeah - the danger here is equipment duplication. And perfectly legal by RAW. I consider the MotP clarification of what the RAW is intended to be (banning coming back to the same plane).
ArcTan 12-06-07, 07:47 PM	DP (computer crashed)
ArcTan 12-06-07, 07:53 PM	Perhaps I am not seeing something that is quite obvious but doesn't astral projection allow you to manifest onto any plane why would you need plane shift? is there an errata that prevents you from manifesting onto the home plane? AP sends you to the Astral Plane. Once you're there, you can go to *other* planes than the home plane. It specifically says "other", implying (though not outright stating) that you can't just walk back with a projection onto the Material. Note that Manual of the Planes *does* outright state this. even if it does if you did it from a mordenkains magnificent mansion you wouldn't need plane shift right? Sure, but the mansion's own duration is limited. even if it does if you did it from a mordenkains magnificent mansion you wouldn't need plane shift right? or is planeshift needed to keep the duplicates of your gear? once the spell ends won't the items also disappear? Problem is AP lasts as long as you want it to last, which could be forever. If you're a high-level Wizard and you play your cards right, dispelling the AP is going to be pretty difficult. another question that arises, would any bags of holding or portable holes that are duplicated open into the same space? or does it create a completely new item? The bag would be copied, and its contents would also be copied, since all of those count as your equipment (so a bag with three scrolls of wish inside would get a copy of the bag with three copied scrolls of wish, that you could use without affecting the real ones on the Material).