Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarknessEternal 09-22-05, 12:56 PM	What level of spell would you all consider the ability enhancement spells (Bear's Endurance, etc) with a duration of 1 hour/level to be?
smrtgmp 09-22-05, 03:29 PM	if it goes from 1min/lvl to 1hour/lvl, I would make the spell two levels higher (one for each incramental increase in duration). YMMV
LordHell 09-22-05, 07:27 PM	Hmm that would make extend spell pretty useless Smart Gimp. Id make it two levels higher per incrament, so Extend Spell still has a valuable use.
smrtgmp 09-22-05, 09:26 PM	So you would use a 6th level slot to get a +4 to a single ability for 1 hour/level? I certainly wouldn't. Compare such a spell to other 4th and 6th level spells, and I think you will find it fits in with the 4th level spells quite nicely. I could maybe see it at 5th level, but that would be pushing it. Extend spell would still be exceedingly useful, as it would allow you to alter the duration of a spell on the fly, not to mention the fact that you could still use it on the greater version.
LordHell 09-22-05, 09:40 PM	Actually yes I would use it as a 6th level spell, considering that it practically a +4 enchancement bonus that lasts all day. If Im a Wizard that's +2 onto my DC's by casting Fox's Cunning that lasts practically all day, which is nothing to laugh about. Compare that to magical items that offer a +4 bonus that grants a continuous effect and you'll see that they cost anywhere in between 16,000gp upwards to 32,000gp. That's certainly far above the wealth level of any 7th level PC when it comes to a single item. Yes now there are differences between an item and a spell, since items cant be dispelled only surpressed, and they literally DO last all day, but the comparason is still valid. You're looking at a 7th level character getting an almost all day +4 bonus to one or more stats. There is partially the reason these spells were changed from an hour duration to 1 min/level in the first place - it made items pretty worthlesss when a maximised 2nd level spell (6th level spell) would give a +5 enchancement bonus. I normally agree with you on a lot of things, but not this. There is still little point in using extend. Why bother taking an extended version that lasts twice as long when you can just take the double version that lasts a whole spell increment up. The cost is both the same (1 spell level) by your logic.
smrtgmp 09-22-05, 11:39 PM	You're looking at a 7th level character getting an almost all day +4 bonus to one or more stats.At 7th level, you're only going to have 1 or 2 4th level spells. And since you probably already have a +2 stat boosting item at that point (I cant speak for anyone else, but thats generally one of the first things I pick up), the +4 isnt as impressive. I dont think I would want to use one of my two 4th level spells for an extra +1 to the DC of my lower levels spells. I'd rather use it for something like dimension door or polymorph or solid fog. There is partially the reason these spells were changed from an hour duration to 1 min/level in the first place - it made items pretty worthlesss when a maximised 2nd level spell (6th level spell) would give a +5 enchancement bonus.Isnt maximize only +3? Or was it +4 in 3.0? Regardless, the reason it was changed was because a 2nd level spell made the stat boosting items obsolete. This would be a 4th level spell, which is a much more hefty investment, IMO. I normally agree with you on a lot of things, but not this. BLASPHEMY!! ;) Why bother taking an extended version that lasts twice as long when you can just take the double version that lasts a whole spell increment up. The cost is both the same (1 spell level) by your logic.A good point. I suppose the only reason would be so that you wouldnt have to take up an extra spell known (in the case of spontaneous casters) to get the extended duration. The reason I suggested a 1 level increase per incrament is that I thought it was an established pattern. I swear there are some core spells that go by that (though I could be completely delireous). I'll have to look through my books once I can see straight again (stupid flu).
LordHell 09-23-05, 12:48 AM	Thinking about it more, I feel a 1.5 (rounded up) spell level increase suits this scenario. So, to increase the duration up one increment, its 2 levels. To increase it up 2 increments it's 3 levels, to increase it up 3 increments its 5 levels, etc. That means a Bulls strength lasting: 10 min/level is a 4th level spell 1 hour/level is a 5th level spell 24 hours is a 7th level spell Haste for example becomes: 1 min/level 5th level 10 min/level 6th level 1 hour/level 8th level 24 hours 9th level. kinda works out, lower level spells are a bit strong (for instance, 24 hour Bulls Str is only 7th level. Using Persistant Spell it should be 8th level). Personally I probably wouldnt allow any higher level spell to be 24 hours apart from using the persistant spell feat anyway, so 1.5 works out.
smrtgmp 09-23-05, 01:08 AM	why use a 7th level for 24 hours when you could extend the 5th leve version for a minimum duration of 18 hours? persistant spell is horribly overpriced for spells with a duration measured in hours. IMO the cost should really be dependant on the original duration. +6 seems fine if the spell was 1 round/level, but its never worth it for spells with a duration of 1hour/level.
Sphyre 09-23-05, 01:15 AM	Part of balancing a spell is it's duration, with extend in mind too. There's never going to be one magical formula that allows you to up the duration, because different spells are going to have different effects during the duration. You really have to ask... what level slot, would a +4 to any given stat that works practically all day, and is equivilent to a 32000 gp item (slotless) worth one spell slot? I'd stay it starts at level 5.
Lina_Inverse 09-23-05, 02:57 AM	1/day 5th level spell is 18k, seems too easy to me. 1/day 6th level spell is 26.4k, more reasonable considering the greater weakness to dispeling. so id say a 6th level slot.
Rundor The Mighty 09-25-05, 12:24 AM	I would NEVER use a 6th level slot for any small buff such as +4 to an ability. Now tack on that it's an enhancement bonus...I just vomited everywhere. The ability buff spells should be 10 min/level IMHO, but lets not focus on just that. If they were 10 min/level then increasing the duration one factor (popular consensus says that is a 2 level increase) would put it at a 4th level spell and that works. Polymorph is a 4th level spell and what can that give you for non enhancment ability buffs and ac! A super weak-one ability focused-1hr/level version of polymorph called bulls strength would make sense.
Lina_Inverse 09-25-05, 01:14 AM	I would NEVER use a 6th level slot for any small buff such as +4 to an ability. Now tack on that it's an enhancement bonus...I just vomited everywhere. The ability buff spells should be 10 min/level IMHO, but lets not focus on just that. If they were 10 min/level then increasing the duration one factor (popular consensus says that is a 2 level increase) would put it at a 4th level spell and that works. Polymorph is a 4th level spell and what can that give you for non enhancment ability buffs and ac! A super weak-one ability focused-1hr/level version of polymorph called bulls strength would make sense. Polymorph is broken. and still lasts only 1minute/level. not all day. +4 to an attribute on an item is 36k gp. a 6th level slot is 26.4k. math dictates thats the closest match.
smrtgmp 09-25-05, 04:14 AM	it would also be the worst 6th level spell in existance.
Josheva 09-26-05, 12:17 AM	To take this conversation in a related yet whole new direction... Why not use the alternate version of the significant spells listed in Tome and Blood? Duration changes to 1 hour per level, bonus changes from +4 to 1d4+1. Spell level stays the same.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-26-05, 12:21 AM	What level of spell would you all consider the ability enhancement spells (Bear's Endurance, etc) with a duration of 1 hour/level to be? 4th, with 10 minute per level versions being 2nd level.
Xanthia 09-26-05, 12:27 AM	I would NEVER use a 6th level slot for any small buff such as +4 to an ability. Now tack on that it's an enhancement bonus...I just vomited everywhere. I think that some of it just got onto me! Watch where you're spewing next time. If I was wasting a 6th level spell slot for something like that, I'd rather just spend a feat to craft an item that does the same thing (Belt of Giant Strength, Headband of Intellect, etc.) and be done with it.