3.0 GMW and Telekinesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.0 GMW and Telekinesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rhys23
10-15-03, 01:27 AM Hello fellow gamers. The mage of my party has just reached level 9 and has been talking about a new combat tactic available to him. He wants to cast GMW on 50 normal arrows at the beginning of the day, making them all +3 arrows. Then, when combat begins, dumping the arrows out and then casting Telekinesis to "shoot" all 50 arrows at one target. At first I thought to myself, "NO WAY!" But after reading the description of the Telekinesis spell, I really couldn't see why not.

However, I still see a potential problem with this combo. Consider a mage with an INT of 22 (+6). This would give the mage right around a +10 to hit per the Telekinesis description. Against a creature with an AC20, roughly 25 arrows should hit the target. This adds up to 75 damage just from the GMW bonuses. Add in the dx damage from the arrows, and this very quickly becomes an obscene amount of damage for a 9th level character to be doing.

Also, I am not quite sure what dice to use for the arrow damage. 1d4 as per melee, 1d6 as shortbow, or 1d8 as longbow?

Anyhow, I just thought I would post this problem I have been thinking about to see what insight you all can give me.
Bopple
10-15-03, 01:47 AM Since ammo damage is not specified, you can set ammo damage as you like.
3.5 rule set it as dagger(1d4).
But still abusable with telekinesis and 3.0 GMW.
Gingerbread Guy
10-15-03, 01:48 AM Hiho,

Okay, there's a problem here.. there has to be, otherwise its so stupidly broken.

To fire an arrow at anything resembling it's usual amount of force, you'd have to produce somewhere between sixty and a hundred pounds of force PER arrow. At fifty arrows, we're looking at thirty to fifty thousands of pounds of force.

But going by the book's rules, yeah, its completely possible. I don't know why he stopped at 50 arrows. At 9th level he could hurl 1,500 arrows [25 pounds/ level x 9 levels = 225 pounds = 75 bundles of 20 arrows at 3 pounds a bundle]. That would only cost him 75gp.

~Ginger
Bopple
10-15-03, 01:56 AM IMO, there should be some limit on numbers of objects on violent thrust telekinesis option.
And some rules for objects like ammos which need to be shot in specific direction to damage.
anglar
10-15-03, 02:01 AM Let him. Then the first time he does make sure he rolls the fifty indvidual attack rolls and that his target is nor more than 90 feet away. It's a great use of the spells and only gets to be a bother when you suddenly realize that the party wizard is stocking up on arrows more than the archers. I'd give damage of 1d6+3 dues to the GMW. You can counter the attack against NPC spellcasters who have a Protection from Arrows in Contingency or ready a Windwall spell. Word about that tactic would spread quickly.
Bopple
10-15-03, 02:22 AM Anglar, I think such measures would be only a stopgap.
As for PFA, the caster level should be at 15th to have 10/+4.

And more importantly, wind wall and PFA are buffs against archery. Not against this broken combo itself. If you overuse those spells, it would practically nullify all the archers.

Lastly, the range of telekinesis is 760ft at 9th level. This can be annoying also.
anglar
10-15-03, 02:35 AM The Violent Thrust part of Telekinesis is set at a range of 10'/level unless 3.5 changed this.
Bopple
10-15-03, 02:40 AM Ahh, nods. Thanks.
Gingerbread Guy
10-15-03, 02:41 AM Hiho,

The objects and the target have to be no more than 10' per level. The range is still technically long [400' + 40'/level], but most likely your arrows aren't way the hell out there.

~Ginger
Rhys23
10-15-03, 03:23 AM Thanks for the quick replies, everyone.

Gingerbread Guy: He stopped at 50 arrows because that is the maximum amount of arrows one can "imbue" with one casting of GMW. Not to mention that 100+ arrows becomes absurd very quickly!

Bopple: I was thinking of a limit also. I am not sure how to set this up. Another player in my group who caught wind of this combo expressed the same concern. Possibly limit it based on INT? I dunno.. still pondering this idea.

anglar: You can count on me forcing the mage to roll 50 "to hits". I would think this alone might make the rest of the party become very annoyed with the combo. Unless the mage can convince the rest of the party that I'm the bad guy. (He is a very vocal player.)

I don't want to outright Rule 0 on this, because I want the players to be creative and have fun with it. I'll most likely use 1d6 for the arrow damage, unless someone can point out a valid reason why not to. So, I guess the next logical step is, how should I go about limiting the number of arrows the mage can "fire" at one time with Telekinesis?
anglar
10-15-03, 03:46 AM Other than Rule 0 there is no real way around it. The only thing I can think of is you could rule that the arrows spread out into an are larger than 10 feet. This would eliminate a small portion. OF course I'd counter as a player by having a special made quiver that could hold the 50 arrows. Ewwww? Think about it. Place the special quiver over your shoulder with the arrows pointing out. Unless the DM rule that the somatic would require both hands, it'd be like a 50 arrow bazooka.

NASTY THOUGHT. A player with a ring of Telekinesis, made at 12th level power, could set up X number of normal quivers filled with 20 arrows each. 2,000 arrows up to 120' in one shot so long as the quivers are arranged in a 10' circle. That's 100 critical threats on the average.:smirk: :smirk: :smirk:
kreynolds
10-15-03, 07:25 AM Honestly, rule 0 isn't really necessary for this. I had an NPC that was constantly trying to take down the party, and at one point, I had him use telekinesis on a pile of nicely-crafted spikes (essentially came out to shuriken). The spikes were in a bag, counting no less than 100. I used e-tools to make the rolls, and I only hit with 24 of them anyway. No crits. A second try only netted 31 hits. In 3.0, 24 and 31 points of damage for two 5th-level spells isn't that great.
Everach
10-15-03, 10:44 AM A violent thrust will NOT launch the arrows point first. Take a handful of toothpicks and throw at the dog. did any stick?

Maybe one or two.

I'd treat this as a single 3 pound item.

If he wants to be abusive, try this: Launch Bolt(MoF) + Chain Spell (T&B) + GMW or Flame Arrow = 1 crossbow bolt per level that's either GMW or flaming.
Perpetual Wizard
10-15-03, 02:02 PM Our DM has ruled that there is a number limit to the number of items a telekinesis spell affects at one time. It is 1 per caster level plus 1 per intelligence bonus. That would still be a large number of arrows but it's a little easier than 50 at a time.
anglar
10-15-03, 07:22 PM All the more reason to have the arrows laoded into a quiver with the points at the top.

More evil on the mind. Pack the bottom 2 feet of a portable hole tightly with cotton. Your average arrow is no more than 4 feet in length. If we say an arrow takes up about 1 square inch of space, we can get around 8,000 arrows in there. Thats 400 guaranteed hits on average. 1200 points of damage just for them. If we load it up with sling stones, that's around 390,000 sling stones. Of course both of these examples far exceed the weight capacity of the spell until absurd levels are reached.

Ohhh! The possibilities.
Xavim
10-16-03, 01:29 AM I was a fan of travelling with a wagon filled with 'em. You'd easily get thousands of thousands in there. But in 3.5 it's 1 object/caster level. So I'd Rule 0 this to the 3.5 version. Unless you want to deal with thousands of arrows.

Just sick the same tactic on the PC some time and see how happy he is about bringing it into the campaign...
Lia Nightdemon
10-18-03, 05:32 PM first of alll the toothpicks example doesn't apply to arrow's since arrows are weighted on one end (trust me i have made my own arrows for fun and they only really worked when i stuck a rock or heavy object at the end) thats also how darts how. the tip is heavy so it makes more of an arch. Plus the arrows are under the mages telekinic control.
sorclight
10-18-03, 06:38 PM Just rule that this part of Telekenisis works just like 3.5 telekenisis and you won't have to worry about this anymore. They fixed something that was broken, just use their fix and tell him that's the way it will be from now on.
psul23
10-19-03, 02:11 PM I am the mage in question and I have no problem with using the fixed 3.5 rules. Neet combo but obviously broken into tiny bits.
Edymnion
10-19-03, 06:33 PM First up, don't use arrows.
Arrows are long and have funky flight mechanics unless they're used EXACTLY the way they were designed (aka if they rotate up/down/left/right they spin out and drop flat).

Use sling bullets instead. No worries about how they fly that way, as a tumbling bullet flies just fine. Usually the big TK thing is Shuriken, so probably treat the sling bullets as doing only 1 point of damage each (before GMW is factored in), and you're good to go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rhys23 10-15-03, 01:27 AM	Hello fellow gamers. The mage of my party has just reached level 9 and has been talking about a new combat tactic available to him. He wants to cast GMW on 50 normal arrows at the beginning of the day, making them all +3 arrows. Then, when combat begins, dumping the arrows out and then casting Telekinesis to "shoot" all 50 arrows at one target. At first I thought to myself, "NO WAY!" But after reading the description of the Telekinesis spell, I really couldn't see why not. However, I still see a potential problem with this combo. Consider a mage with an INT of 22 (+6). This would give the mage right around a +10 to hit per the Telekinesis description. Against a creature with an AC20, roughly 25 arrows should hit the target. This adds up to 75 damage just from the GMW bonuses. Add in the dx damage from the arrows, and this very quickly becomes an obscene amount of damage for a 9th level character to be doing. Also, I am not quite sure what dice to use for the arrow damage. 1d4 as per melee, 1d6 as shortbow, or 1d8 as longbow? Anyhow, I just thought I would post this problem I have been thinking about to see what insight you all can give me.
Bopple 10-15-03, 01:47 AM	Since ammo damage is not specified, you can set ammo damage as you like. 3.5 rule set it as dagger(1d4). But still abusable with telekinesis and 3.0 GMW.
Gingerbread Guy 10-15-03, 01:48 AM	Hiho, Okay, there's a problem here.. there has to be, otherwise its so stupidly broken. To fire an arrow at anything resembling it's usual amount of force, you'd have to produce somewhere between sixty and a hundred pounds of force PER arrow. At fifty arrows, we're looking at thirty to fifty thousands of pounds of force. But going by the book's rules, yeah, its completely possible. I don't know why he stopped at 50 arrows. At 9th level he could hurl 1,500 arrows [25 pounds/ level x 9 levels = 225 pounds = 75 bundles of 20 arrows at 3 pounds a bundle]. That would only cost him 75gp. ~Ginger
Bopple 10-15-03, 01:56 AM	IMO, there should be some limit on numbers of objects on violent thrust telekinesis option. And some rules for objects like ammos which need to be shot in specific direction to damage.
anglar 10-15-03, 02:01 AM	Let him. Then the first time he does make sure he rolls the fifty indvidual attack rolls and that his target is nor more than 90 feet away. It's a great use of the spells and only gets to be a bother when you suddenly realize that the party wizard is stocking up on arrows more than the archers. I'd give damage of 1d6+3 dues to the GMW. You can counter the attack against NPC spellcasters who have a Protection from Arrows in Contingency or ready a Windwall spell. Word about that tactic would spread quickly.
Bopple 10-15-03, 02:22 AM	Anglar, I think such measures would be only a stopgap. As for PFA, the caster level should be at 15th to have 10/+4. And more importantly, wind wall and PFA are buffs against archery. Not against this broken combo itself. If you overuse those spells, it would practically nullify all the archers. Lastly, the range of telekinesis is 760ft at 9th level. This can be annoying also.
anglar 10-15-03, 02:35 AM	The Violent Thrust part of Telekinesis is set at a range of 10'/level unless 3.5 changed this.
Bopple 10-15-03, 02:40 AM	Ahh, nods. Thanks.
Gingerbread Guy 10-15-03, 02:41 AM	Hiho, The objects and the target have to be no more than 10' per level. The range is still technically long [400' + 40'/level], but most likely your arrows aren't way the hell out there. ~Ginger
Rhys23 10-15-03, 03:23 AM	Thanks for the quick replies, everyone. Gingerbread Guy: He stopped at 50 arrows because that is the maximum amount of arrows one can "imbue" with one casting of GMW. Not to mention that 100+ arrows becomes absurd very quickly! Bopple: I was thinking of a limit also. I am not sure how to set this up. Another player in my group who caught wind of this combo expressed the same concern. Possibly limit it based on INT? I dunno.. still pondering this idea. anglar: You can count on me forcing the mage to roll 50 "to hits". I would think this alone might make the rest of the party become very annoyed with the combo. Unless the mage can convince the rest of the party that I'm the bad guy. (He is a very vocal player.) I don't want to outright Rule 0 on this, because I want the players to be creative and have fun with it. I'll most likely use 1d6 for the arrow damage, unless someone can point out a valid reason why not to. So, I guess the next logical step is, how should I go about limiting the number of arrows the mage can "fire" at one time with Telekinesis?
anglar 10-15-03, 03:46 AM	Other than Rule 0 there is no real way around it. The only thing I can think of is you could rule that the arrows spread out into an are larger than 10 feet. This would eliminate a small portion. OF course I'd counter as a player by having a special made quiver that could hold the 50 arrows. Ewwww? Think about it. Place the special quiver over your shoulder with the arrows pointing out. Unless the DM rule that the somatic would require both hands, it'd be like a 50 arrow bazooka. NASTY THOUGHT. A player with a ring of Telekinesis, made at 12th level power, could set up X number of normal quivers filled with 20 arrows each. 2,000 arrows up to 120' in one shot so long as the quivers are arranged in a 10' circle. That's 100 critical threats on the average.:smirk: :smirk: :smirk:
kreynolds 10-15-03, 07:25 AM	Honestly, rule 0 isn't really necessary for this. I had an NPC that was constantly trying to take down the party, and at one point, I had him use telekinesis on a pile of nicely-crafted spikes (essentially came out to shuriken). The spikes were in a bag, counting no less than 100. I used e-tools to make the rolls, and I only hit with 24 of them anyway. No crits. A second try only netted 31 hits. In 3.0, 24 and 31 points of damage for two 5th-level spells isn't that great.
Everach 10-15-03, 10:44 AM	A violent thrust will NOT launch the arrows point first. Take a handful of toothpicks and throw at the dog. did any stick? Maybe one or two. I'd treat this as a single 3 pound item. If he wants to be abusive, try this: Launch Bolt(MoF) + Chain Spell (T&B) + GMW or Flame Arrow = 1 crossbow bolt per level that's either GMW or flaming.
Perpetual Wizard 10-15-03, 02:02 PM	Our DM has ruled that there is a number limit to the number of items a telekinesis spell affects at one time. It is 1 per caster level plus 1 per intelligence bonus. That would still be a large number of arrows but it's a little easier than 50 at a time.
anglar 10-15-03, 07:22 PM	All the more reason to have the arrows laoded into a quiver with the points at the top. More evil on the mind. Pack the bottom 2 feet of a portable hole tightly with cotton. Your average arrow is no more than 4 feet in length. If we say an arrow takes up about 1 square inch of space, we can get around 8,000 arrows in there. Thats 400 guaranteed hits on average. 1200 points of damage just for them. If we load it up with sling stones, that's around 390,000 sling stones. Of course both of these examples far exceed the weight capacity of the spell until absurd levels are reached. Ohhh! The possibilities.
Xavim 10-16-03, 01:29 AM	I was a fan of travelling with a wagon filled with 'em. You'd easily get thousands of thousands in there. But in 3.5 it's 1 object/caster level. So I'd Rule 0 this to the 3.5 version. Unless you want to deal with thousands of arrows. Just sick the same tactic on the PC some time and see how happy he is about bringing it into the campaign...
Lia Nightdemon 10-18-03, 05:32 PM	first of alll the toothpicks example doesn't apply to arrow's since arrows are weighted on one end (trust me i have made my own arrows for fun and they only really worked when i stuck a rock or heavy object at the end) thats also how darts how. the tip is heavy so it makes more of an arch. Plus the arrows are under the mages telekinic control.
sorclight 10-18-03, 06:38 PM	Just rule that this part of Telekenisis works just like 3.5 telekenisis and you won't have to worry about this anymore. They fixed something that was broken, just use their fix and tell him that's the way it will be from now on.
psul23 10-19-03, 02:11 PM	I am the mage in question and I have no problem with using the fixed 3.5 rules. Neet combo but obviously broken into tiny bits.
Edymnion 10-19-03, 06:33 PM	First up, don't use arrows. Arrows are long and have funky flight mechanics unless they're used EXACTLY the way they were designed (aka if they rotate up/down/left/right they spin out and drop flat). Use sling bullets instead. No worries about how they fly that way, as a tumbling bullet flies just fine. Usually the big TK thing is Shuriken, so probably treat the sling bullets as doing only 1 point of damage each (before GMW is factored in), and you're good to go.