Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mbfu3k 04-26-05, 02:24 PM	This seems like such a good spell, but it leaves out quite a bit of necessary info. I'm wondering how others handle this spell, how they adjucate the strange situations that come up, etc. Once the spell takes effect, you can no longer be killed by ordinary means: If damage or a spell would render you disabled, dying, or dead, you ignore the usual effects. Instead, you are staggard. Wow, sounds pretty good, eh? If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing Wait, what? No healing what-so-ever? How, then, do you ever become not "otherwise dead?" Are you forevermore doomed to a "life" of partial actions only? Does this only mean magical healing? Only cure spells? What about natural healing from rest? What if you have Fast Healing? If you can't ever become unstaggard, then this spell hardly seems worth the 5k XP. I think my DM plans to run it as you must heal "naturally," that is, either through resting, or via some innate ability such as Fast Healing (however, the ability cannot be granted by a magic item, such as a Ring of Regeneration). Once back over -10 HP, magical healing can be applied again. However, this raises some other questions. Does alchemical healing or other non-magical, external healing, such as from a healing salve, seem like it should count as "natural healing" for these purposes? Also, what if you are slain, not through HP damage, but through an instant death effect, such as Slay Living? We're thinking that it should automatically bring you to -10 HP, from which you would have to heal at least 1 HP naturally. However, since this seems to make the spell maybe a bit too powerful, we're going to allow effects that totally destroy your body to do so, with the caveat that you are still alive, just as a pile of dust or what-have-you. For example, Disintigrate or Destruction would put you instantly at -10 HP and transform your body to a pile of dust. You can then use any abilities that do not require any components (such as SLAs, or Silent, Stilled, Eschewed spells) to try and restore yourself. Does this seem fair? If so, what methods would be reasonable to restore the body? I was thinking PAO could do so permanently, but be dispellable. What about Limited Wish? Restoration? Regeneration? Clone? Any other ideas? One other question I had about this is whether Supernatural abilities (such as a Bodak's gaze) would count as a "spell effect" for the purposes of this spell? Would you still be slain normally by such an effect? It seems against the intent of the spell, but the actual wording of the spell seems to offer no protection against such non-spell-like abilities. Can anyone point out any other non-spell, non-HP instant death effects that I should be aware of? Finally, are there any other strange situations people have encountered when using this spell? I'd like to have a good idea as to how it will work before I decide whether my character will bother casting it. It's a lot of XP, and I don't want to get caught by surprise by some aspect of the spell I hadn't anticipated.
tarkin 04-26-05, 02:52 PM	By healing, they mean natural healing. Magic, and only magic can still heal you. Salves, alchemical, Fast Healing, etc. do not work.
mbfu3k 04-26-05, 03:13 PM	Hrm. That's an interesting interpretation, tarkin. While I can certainly see where you're coming from with that, I think that makes it awfully powerful. What kind of drawback is "can only heal from cure spells," really? Adventurers always use healing magic anyway. Oh, one thing I forgot to include in my original post... Does that "cannot benefit from healing" bit apply only to HP, or does it include ability score damage as well? Specifically, if you were to take enough Con damage to reduce your Con score to 0, could you still use Restoration to restore yourself? Is there any difference in this case, then, between permanent Con damage, temporary Con damage, and Con drain? We're thinking that the healing restriction only applies to HP. If your Con is damaged down to 0, you instantly go to -10 HP and must get your Con restored back up to at least 1 before you can heal that 1 HP to become unstaggered. How does that sound?
calypso 04-26-05, 04:44 PM	I agree with Tarkin, it means that you cannot heal. That doesn't mean that you cannot be healed. Calypso
PhaedrusXY 04-26-05, 07:12 PM	That spell is so overpowered, I could even see interpreting it that you need to use a Wish or Limited Wish to repair your body to the point where healing magic will work on it at all, once you take enough damage to drop you below -10. That would tend to limit Hide Life to something a bit more reasonable. Of course, that would be a house rule.
mbfu3k 04-26-05, 07:33 PM	Ok, well, what do people think about the non-HP instant death effects, then? Does having them set you immediately to -10 or so seem reasonable? And no ideas / comments on how to restore a disintegrated body?
Loren Pechtel 04-27-05, 02:30 AM	Wait, what? No healing what-so-ever? How, then, do you ever become not "otherwise dead?" Are you forevermore doomed to a "life" of partial actions only? Does this only mean magical healing? Only cure spells? What about natural healing from rest? What if you have Fast Healing? If you can't ever become unstaggard, then this spell hardly seems worth the 5k XP. My take: No healing whatsoever, magical or not. However, this only applies if you "died" from something other than hitpoints. Hitpoints can be recovered by any means they normally can be recovered except there's nothing special about being below zero. The rules aren't clear on what's supposed to happen in such a situation. I would be inclined to say that you can be raised or resurrected from such a state. One other question I had about this is whether Supernatural abilities (such as a Bodak's gaze) would count as a "spell effect" for the purposes of this spell? Would you still be slain normally by such an effect? It seems against the intent of the spell, but the actual wording of the spell seems to offer no protection against such non-spell-like abilities. Can anyone point out any other non-spell, non-HP instant death effects that I should be aware of? I don't see it offering any protection against a Bodak.
calypso 04-27-05, 08:56 AM	Instant death effects don't kill you. That includes Bodaks, Finger of Death, Slay Living, Phantasmal Killer, etc, etc. You can't be killed. You instead are staggered. And... well, beyond that, the wording is kinda vague. Calypso
CaoSlayer 04-27-05, 09:08 AM	the thing... it is that is like you have becomed an undead once you are "killed" and so, you are totally dead but you can still act and think ever with a "broken" body or without a head. I agree, this spell it is awfully worded... should have been worded and made such that when "killed" you becomes a lich without other benefits beyond being unnable to be killed unless the phil. it is destroyed. A cleric should be able to turn you.
mbfu3k 04-27-05, 05:49 PM	Hrm. I'm still looking for opinions on what people think would be fair to restore / recreate a disintigrated body, without ending the spell. Does it seem reasonable to allow Regenerate to bring back an entire body? Should there be more cost involved, such as requiring Limited Wish? Would Limited Wish alone be sufficient? If Clone were used to create a new body, how difficult should it be to "attach" the life-force to the new body without ending the spell? Should it happen automatically, or will I need to research a new spell?
thannider 04-27-05, 06:43 PM	I don't think there's any limitation on healing damage while under the effects of the spell.If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead if the spell is ended.It seems to me that the wording is poorly written, but it doesn't restrict you from getting healing (natural or magical) while the spell is in effect. The restriction mentioned in that sentence is only for if the spell is ended. It would have been better if they'd worded it as: "If you would otherwise be dead and the spell is ended, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead." This makes it much more clear and is, I believe, what the spell is trying to say. If you look at the sentence before that one, it says: Healing does not automatically return you to 0 hit points but simply adjusts your current total upwards. That sentence certainly seems to indicate that healing can be used on the character, and doesn't list a restriction on what types of healing are effective. The most reasonable way to make that sentence compatible with the one following it is to read it that the second sentence only applies if the spell is ended.
mbfu3k 04-27-05, 07:18 PM	I don't think there's any limitation on healing damage while under the effects of the spell.It seems to me that the wording is poorly written, but it doesn't restrict you from getting healing (natural or magical) while the spell is in effect. The restriction mentioned in that sentence is only for if the spell is ended. Obviously, this spell is poorly written, since no one seems to be able to agree on an interpretation. However, since I, my DM, and the other players all agree that our interpretation (that otherwise dead = -10 HP and need to heal naturally to at least -9, at which point magical healing can be used but does not automatically raise HP to 0) is the most balanced and reasonable, this is what we're going with. We feel that our interpretation makes the spell powerful enough to justify the 5000 XP cost, but with enough drawbacks that it's not ridiculously overpowered. The only thing (I think) I'm still unsure about, is how exactly to restore a disintegrated or otherwise destroyed body, without ending the spell.
mbfu3k 04-28-05, 10:31 AM	:bump:
CaoSlayer 04-29-05, 05:24 AM	IMO, the only thing that would allow you to get again to 0hp and regain hp it is a raise dead (or similar) spell, since you can use normal healing spells in a corpse for fixing it. of course, you can rule than he doesnt need to lose a level, since this mind isnt dead.