Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lago AM3P 10-18-03, 11:34 AM	Sigh... I discovered this stupid piece of overpoweredness too late. Here's basically what you do. Cast polymorph any object into something with a really, really low non-zero strength score. Then cast 'persistant divine power'. Then polymorph into the form of your choice and rock ass with your +16 strength enhancement bonus, which stacks with everything. SWEEEEEEET
Sacrusha 10-18-03, 01:16 PM	That's not how Divine Power(3.0) works. It grants you an enhancement bonus to stength sufficient to raise your strength score to 18 for the duration of the spell. It doesn't give you a fix enhancement bonus to strength sufficient to raise your strength at casting time to 18 for the duration of the spell. The bonus adjusts. Pretty useful against shadows. EDIT: And an enhancement bonus stacks with almost nothing, not with everything, because almost all possible strength boosts are enhancement bonuses.
Kirin Corrigan 10-18-03, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by Sacrusha That's not how Divine Power(3.0) works. Actually, that's exactly how Divine Power works in 3.0: «You gain the base attack bonus of a fighter of your total character level, an enhancement bonus to Strength sufficient to raise your Strength score to 18 (if it is not already 18 or higher), and 1 temporary hit point per level.» The underlined text unquestionably supports what Lago said. --- Anyways, Lago, you don't really need PaO (which is not on the Cleric spell list, but only in the Trickery domain list), you just need Bestow Curse (Clr 3) to give yourself a - 6 to strenght, Divine Power (Clr 4) or Persistent Divine Power (=Clr 8) and Remove Curse (Clr 3). A 15th level cleric with Strenght 10 ends up with Strenght 24 for 24 hours. To be honest, for a 15th level character it's not that powerful. Definitely not overpowered. On the other hand, that's just the beginning of the actual combo: with other 3 spells you can reach a disgusting high strenght score. :smirk: Add Persistent Divine Favor (=Clr 5), Greater Magic Weapon (Clr 4), Magic Vestment (Clr 3) on your armor and shield to get a formidable melee combatant. As if that wasn't enough, with other 2 spells you become temporarily immune to damage. :eek: Of course you'll also be short of 12 spells out of your daily allotment just to play the superstar in one fight... :embarrass You gotta love clerics. :behold:
pjrg 10-22-03, 08:58 PM	sacrusha is right divine power 3.0 doesnt work like that it jus give you a 18 stregh score
Kirin Corrigan 10-23-03, 01:34 PM	Nope. :sad: I quoted the relevant text that proves the contrary.
bitnine 10-23-03, 01:37 PM	Hm, I see how it figures the bonus at the start of the spell, but there's no mention of that bonus changing on condition of the character's strength. (Like, for example, the bonus increasing if the character gets hit by strength poison.)
Tae Kwon Dan 10-23-03, 03:59 PM	I think the reason the spell went to a flat bonus in 3.5 was to cover that very confusion bitnine. Although it does seem like the enhancement bonus would only be determined at the start of the spell.
Kirin Corrigan 10-23-03, 04:37 PM	There's a catch. They changed the bonus to strenght (not really in need of a fix), but they made the spell way more appealing at epic levels: a BAB equal to your Character Level is something even an Epic Fighter just dreams about. :nonono:
pjrg 10-23-03, 08:43 PM	in 3.0 divine power gave you a enhacement bonus to high your stregh score to 18, if it 50 you dont get anything, if you have 0 you get 18, but if you change form and get 50 well the spell doesnt change so it give you a enhacement bonus to high your stregh to 18, since it is 50 you dont get anything, well i now that maybe your point is -well but whe you cast it you had 3 of stregh and the enhacement bonus has been stablished- doesnt work like that, because the spell duration is not instantaneus so tha conditios still works. that is the way it actually works friend, but there are a lot of player that like to be too powerfull and want to understand what they see for good, but i dont believe you are one of those because you have asked that :D
Hypersmurf 10-23-03, 11:02 PM	... but if you change form and get 50 well the spell doesnt change so it give you a enhacement bonus to high your stregh to 18, since it is 50 you dont get anything, well i now that maybe your point is -well but whe you cast it you had 3 of stregh and the enhacement bonus has been stablished- doesnt work like that, because the spell duration is not instantaneus so tha conditios still works. Now let's take Shillelagh as an example of why your logic is flawed. Shillelagh has a target of "One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff" and a duration of 1 minute/level. However, as soon as you cast it on your nonmagical club, it isn't nonmagical any more. But fortunately, the spell doesn't constantly "update" its parameters, and so it doesn't automatically fail because its target has become invalid. Likewise, if you have a Strength of 3 and cast Divine Power, then the Divine Power spell grants you an enhancement bonus sufficient to raise your Strength to 18: +15. And that bonus lasts for 1 round/level. If you start Raging, you now have a Strength of 3 +4 (Rage) +15 (Enhancement) = 22... not 3 + 4 + (readjusted enhancement bonus sufficient to raise Strength to 18). The bonus was defined when the spell was cast. ... otherwise Shillelagh can never work. -Hyp.
pjrg 10-23-03, 11:31 PM	mybe it is becuase english is not my native language that i have not been make me understand, i have a poor english... well it is not like the spell is "updating" ,you see, it gives you a enhacement bonus enough to get you to 18 , if the base creature changes obviusly (at least for me) the spell doestn change, it still gives yo a enhacement enugh to give you a stregh 18..... it is pretty clear to me.... in another words it gives you a 18 streght for the duration of the spell....
Hypersmurf 10-23-03, 11:42 PM	it gives you a enhacement bonus enough to get you to 18 , if the base creature changes obviusly (at least for me) the spell doestn change, it still gives yo a enhacement enugh to give you a stregh 18..... it is pretty clear to me.... in another words it gives you a 18 streght for the duration of the spell.... So if you get attacked by a bunch of Shadows, who drain thirty points of Strength over the course of a few rounds, you feel that your Strength would still be 18? -Hyp.
Frodo Lives 10-23-03, 11:44 PM	The spells intention was for the clerics strength to be 18, if a player tries to get around that using wording games then he or she should be wacked upside the head with the PHB. The characters STR becomes 18, if the character gets a strength penalty after that it gets lowered, but the spell doesn't raise it beyond 18. If other bonuses gives the cleric a STR of more than 18, the strength bonus from D. Power doesn't do anything. And people wonder why clerics get a bad rap for being overpowered.:rolleyes: I don't allow any of these word games to go against the INTENT of the spell. That is just munckinism at it's worst.
Hypersmurf 10-23-03, 11:52 PM	The characters STR becomes 18, if the character gets a strength penalty after that it gets lowered, but the spell doesn't raise it beyond 18. If other bonuses gives the cleric a STR of more than 18, the strength bonus from D. Power doesn't do anything. That's horribly inconsistent. Either the spell does constantly update its enhancement bonus to increase the Str score to 18, or it doesn't. It doesn't have a ratchet attachment. -Hyp.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 12:58 AM	No it isn't. The spell makes your stregnth score 18. It can move up or down after that due to other effects. But it does not count towards any other stregnth bonuses. Cleric STR 14 Divine Power makes the STR 18 R. Might would raise the strength by 4, which originally is 14 then to 18. It doesn't make the Divine Power 18 to a 22. Because your strength is now 18 or above. If your STR at any time during the spell goes above 18 due to other bonuses then you no longer recieve the STR bonus due to D. Power. Divine Power Str bonus does in no way increase your STR over 18. If another spell or bonus does then that takes precedance. If your STR is 20, then Divine Power doesn't lower it to 18. You can't have it both ways. The intent of the spell was to increase IF NEEDED, STR to 18.
Hypersmurf 10-24-03, 01:12 AM	No it isn't. The spell makes your stregnth score 18. It can move up or down after that due to other effects. But it does not count towards any other stregnth bonuses. It provides an Enhancement bonus. An Enhancement bonus stacks with the Enlargement bonus from Righteous Might. If a 10 Str Cleric casts Divine Power (+8 Enhancement bonus) and then Righteous Might (+4 Enlargement bonus), are you suggesting that the Enhancement bonus changes to +4, or overlaps with the Enlargement bonus? If the 10 Str Cleric casts Divine Power (+8 Enhancement bonus) and then is Polymorphed into an orc (base Str becomes 15) are you suggesting the Enhancement bonus changes to +3, or somehow remains +8 without pushing the Str total over 18? -Hyp.
Kirin Corrigan 10-24-03, 02:59 AM	Hyp, thank you for your effort to clarify the mechanics of this spell. ;) I always thought that the Divine Power description was self-explanatory: the enhancement bonus provided is set at the moment of the casting and does not change for the remainder of the duration of the spell. The logical consequence of this is that modifying the base strenght score (using anything different from an enhancement bonus lower than that granted by Divine Power) actually changes the total strenght score, be it upwards or downwards. A smart guy can take advantage of that, but hardly he'll cause imbalance in the game, considering the amount of resources he has to blow up. Using at least three spells to raise your strenght to something like 24 at mid to high levels has a pretty low cost/effectiveness ratio. OTOH, claiming that Divine Power constantly adjust your strenght to a score of 18 leads to nonsense such as invulnerability to strenght damage and strenght draining attacks, as you already pointed out. :embarrass
Hypersmurf 10-24-03, 03:10 AM	... nonsense such as invulnerability to strenght damage and strenght draining attacks, as you already pointed out. :embarrass Yeah, you need Ray of Enfeeblement for that :D -Hyp.
Kirin Corrigan 10-24-03, 03:20 AM	:P Now, honestly, have you ever taken advantage of THAT?
anglar 10-24-03, 03:28 AM	It would cost more, but it would save spell slots to use poisons that did STR damage. The cleric could get a poison dosage that wouldn't put him in a catatonic state, willfully fail the save, cast a persistant DP, and then cast neutralize poison. It may or may not be as big as using Bestow Curse, but is saves a spell slot overall.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 09:51 AM	The Str bonus is not a numeric bonus, it is set at 18. If you no longer need that bonus becuase your strength is over 18 then it is no longer applicable. To try to break the spell like that is just rules lawyering, and it is not the intent of the spell, that is why they changed it in 3.5. The divine power bonus to strength is set at 18, if you want to increase it afterword and have it still apply, then by your logic if your strength is over 18 then D. Power should reduce your strength, which it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.
bitnine 10-24-03, 09:58 AM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives To try to break the spell like that is just rules lawyering, and it is not the intent of the spell, that is why they changed it in 3.5. Isn't telling someone that they are just rules lawyering a way of acknowledging that the text and the rules support them, yet declaring yourself right anyways?
Tae Kwon Dan 10-24-03, 10:02 AM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives The divine power bonus to strength is set at 18, if you want to increase it afterword and have it still apply, then by your logic if your strength is over 18 then D. Power should reduce your strength, which it doesn't. You can't have it both ways. :uh-huh: How you got that leap of logic is far beyond my poor fragile little mind.
Zherog 10-24-03, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by Tae Kwon Dan :uh-huh: How you got that leap of logic is far beyond my poor fragile little mind. Normally, Dan, I would twist these words of yours. :devil: But I agree - my fragile little mind hurts as well. :uh-huh:
Kirin Corrigan 10-24-03, 11:15 AM	Originally posted by bitnine Isn't telling someone that they are just rules lawyering a way of acknowledging that the text and the rules support them, yet declaring yourself right anyways? You betcha. Frodo Lives does not like that use of the spell, but he simply can't confute what Hyp and I said. As a matter of fact, he played the "Intent of the spell" card, which is the last (yet always uneffective) resource against who's debating the actual wording of the spell... ;)
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 02:19 PM	OK please quote me the part of the spell in 3.0 that says the bonus stays in place if your strength goes above 18. I am using COMMEN sense, which I guess isn't that commen. No wonder the cleric is getting a bad rap, if you are allowed to get away with something like that when it is obviously not what the spell was intended for. You do it your way, which breaks the spell and makes it overpowered, I'll use the spell my way which doesn't.
bitnine 10-24-03, 02:37 PM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives OK please quote me the part of the spell in 3.0 that says the bonus stays in place if your strength goes above 18. Good call. After that they can quote me where it says that orcs don't have gumdrops for blood.
Zherog 10-24-03, 02:41 PM	Frodo, calm down dude. I think perhaps you missed the intent of the thread. The purpose wasn't to debate what was intended by the rule as written. The purpose was to point out that - as written - this spell has a large loophole in it. I'm Joe Cleric. I have an average strength (10), but I'm about to enter combat in the name of all my deity views as good and right, so I cast Divine Power. It grants me an enhancement bonus to strength sufficient to raise my score to 18 [b]at the time the spell is cast. In the case of Joe Cleric, that would a +8 enhancement bonus. Then my friend the wizard comes along and he casts enlarge on me. Enlarge grants me a +4 enlargement bonus to strength. Different named bonuses stack - so my +8 from Divine Power and the +4 from Enlarge stack. All that matters is your strength score when you cast Divine Power. Once the spell is completed, you have that enhancement bonus, no matter what happens (unless, of course, the spell is dispelled).
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 02:59 PM	So orcs have gumballs for blood in your campaign? Just because don't specifically say you can't do something, doesn't mean you can. I am basing my theory on the line of the spell that states: Bonus to Strength sufficient to raise your Strength to 18 (if it is not already 18 or higher) It does not say that the STR stat remains constant at 18, only that it raises your score to 18 IF NEEDED. If you no longer need that bonus to raise you strength to 18, the bonus does not apply. The spell does not confer a numarical bonus, it raises your STR to 18 if needed. The same thing applies to other spells For example: Fly your movement is 90 feet if in light armor, 60 if in heavy or medium armor. Are you saying that if the spell is cast and you are not wearing armor you move at 90 feet even if at a later time during the spells duration you don heavy armor? Both are examples of how circumstances will change the benifits of a spell. That is the logic behind my reasoning of how the spell works. All I've heard so far is how the spell works the other way is because it doesn't say it can't. That isn't a real concrete arguement in my books. Please give me a reason as to why this spell should work the other way other than it doesn't say it can't. Then maybe you'd have a case.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by Zherog Frodo, calm down dude. I think perhaps you missed the intent of the thread. The purpose wasn't to debate what was intended by the rule as written. The purpose was to point out that - as written - this spell has a large loophole in it. A large loophole that only a blind, deaf, and dumb DM would allow. It's people who try to take advantage of these loopholes that give the cleric a bad name when it comes to being overpowered. I don't disagree that it is a loophole, just that it is one that is so obviously not what the designers intended that it is silly to think that the spell works that way.
bitnine 10-24-03, 03:10 PM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives A large loophole that only a blind, deaf, and dumb DM would allow. It's people who try to take advantage of these loopholes that give the cleric a bad name when it comes to being overpowered. In fact, you might want to toss out that you feel that a DM that runs with the rules as written is worse than the devil, deserves to have his books taken away, and then shot, hung upside down, and beaten. After all, they had the gall to fail to guess the intent of the spell and agree with you.
Tae Kwon Dan 10-24-03, 03:11 PM	But it's equally silly to tell me that the spell doesn't stack with Enlarge or Righteous Might when that was also clearly the design intent of the spell.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 03:33 PM	The spell stacks with any other spell that gives you a bonus to STR other than enchantment bonuses. However, the STR bonus doesn't apply if your STR is over 18, with those spells it would bring your STR over 18. Instead of insulting me personally why don't you present a theory about the spell based on logic, not because it doesn't say I can't.
Zherog 10-24-03, 03:37 PM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives It does not say that the STR stat remains constant at 18, only that it raises your score to 18 IF NEEDED. If you no longer need that bonus to raise you strength to 18, the bonus does not apply. The spell does not confer a numarical bonus, it raises your STR to 18 if needed. This is an interesting interpretation, Frodo. So let's go back to Joe Cleric, who has a base strength of 10. Joe casts Divine Power and now he's got an 18 strength. The very next round, Joe gets hit with a strength sapping poison (or gets hit by a shadow, or hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement - doesn't matter, just so his strength is reduced). I'd like to know - does the Divine Power Joe cast last round "wake up" and re-adjust Joe's strength again so that it remains 18 for the duration of the spell? Be careful how you answer that question, Frodo. If you say Joe's strength can go down, then there's no reason why it can't go up.
Tae Kwon Dan 10-24-03, 04:01 PM	You've been given logic and you're not listening to it so here are the facts of the spell and magic in general: Fact 1 Spell effects are resolved when the spell is cast. Fact 2 If you have below an 18 STR, let's say a 14, and cast Divine Power then you receive an enhancement bonus large enough to bring your STR up to 18. In this instance you have a +4 bonus. By fact 1 we have resolved the size of the enhancement bonus from Divine Power and it is fixed regardless of what my STR is. Fact 3 Differently named bonuses stack and Enlarge\Righteous Might\etc. give an enlargement bonus to STR. Conclusion When under the effect of Divine Power, if I receive a +2 bonus from Enlarge or a +4 from Righteous Might they must stack with my +4 enhancement that I received previously. Opinion This is getting kind of silly since 3.5 resolved most of this by giving a static bonus. It's arguable that the bonus is too big and should be reduced, but it's much cleaner.
Lago AM3P 10-24-03, 05:59 PM	3.5E divine power is one of the few cases where a game effect that was weak for everyone else and unbalancingly overpowered for edge cases was turned on its head and made the non-stoopid way 'round. I still think that it's an accident.
Kirin Corrigan 10-24-03, 07:11 PM	And I still believe that getting a BAB equal to your total character level without any kind of cap definitely qualifies as stoopid.
anglar 10-24-03, 10:34 PM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives I am using COMMEN sense, which I guess isn't that commen. Well that's why we're disagreeing with you. Some of the rest of us use COMMON sense, which still isn't very common. Speaking from my personal perspective, if there isn't a rule saying you can't do something, then you can. See 9th Amendment of US Constitution for reference. IOW, if it's not specifically against the rules, it's allowed.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 10:37 PM	OK lets try this again Using the simple logic of: If X = True Then effect Y occurs With X being the condition and Y being the spell effects. For example If X (successful ranged touch attack) = True Then effect Y (spell damage) occurs If X = False Then effect Y does not occur Following so far? Now lets take a spell with a variable instead of simply a numeric component EG Fly If X (wearing light armor) = True Then Y (speed of 90 feet) occurs OR If X (wearing medium or heavy armor) = True Then Y (speed of 60 feet) occurs With X being the condition and Y being the spell effects. If the spell was static throughout its duration, then changing into or out of armor would have no effect on your speed flying, the only thing that affects your flying speed is what type of armor you were wearing when the spell was cast. I don’t believe that is the case, if you change the conditions of X (light or heavy armor) during the duration of the spell then that changes the affect (the flying speed). Therefore, not all spells are static throughout their duration. Agreed? Any problems with the logic so far? Now for 3.0 D. Power If X (strength is less than 18) = True Then Y (Strength bonus to 18 is applied) occurs X (strength is less than 18) is a variable, the spell may or may not affect your STR stat based on your current STR. Just like your Fly speed changes while the spell is in effect based on its variable (of type of armor worn). The variable of D. Power can change if the value of X changes. If you change value of your strength to higher than 18, suddenly X = False and then the effect does not take place. Because the bonus is not needed or necessary. The key to this is the spell specifically states that it only raises your strength if necessary. During the spells duration, if that condition is no longer necessary it no longer applies. All spells are not static, based on my Fly example. Again, if you don’t want to do it this way fine, but I believe that was the intent of the spell in the first place. It removes the loophole and is very easy to put into effect. Every time your Strength score changes (through spells or magic items or removal of curses) and it changes the value of X (strength is less than 18), from True to False or from False to True, it asks is the effect (bonus STR from D. Power) should occur. After all the value of X (higher or lower than 18) is the condition of getting the bonus in the first place. I hope I haven’t made this any more complicated than needed. Dan: All spell effects are not resolved during casting some can change during its duration. Kirin: It grants a BAB of a fighter of your total level, not +1 for every level you have. It's not a huge difference, but at epic levels when a fighters BAB doesn't always go up every level it does provide a cap, not a very restricting one I agree.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 10:39 PM	Originally posted by anglar Speaking from my personal perspective, if there isn't a rule saying you can't do something, then you can. See 9th Amendment of US Constitution for reference. IOW, if it's not specifically against the rules, it's allowed. Then if I say my elf can kill on sight, he can? Because it's not specifically stated in the rules that he can't.:rolleyes: We are talking about the mechanical rules to a spell, not free speech.
bitnine 10-24-03, 10:48 PM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives Then if I say my elf can kill on sight, he can? Because it's not specifically stated in the rules that he can't.:rolleyes: Aw, and I was going to use: "It doesn't say I can't sprout a magic tree out of my head and use it to somehow fly to the moon and there use the spelling prowess that it grants me to take over the inner core, so you know, that means I can."
Hypersmurf 10-24-03, 10:52 PM	The variable of D. Power can change if the value of X changes. But in that case, you have to agree that if I have a Strength of 14 (X) and cast Divine Power, I gain a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength (the variable of D. Power). If I take fifty points of Strength damage (the value of X changes to -36) then the Enhancement bonus changes to +54 (the variable of D. Power changes). Otherwise the bonus is no longer "sufficient to raise my Strength to 18". ... if you assume that the bonus is not static. Kirin: It grants a BAB of a fighter of your total level, not +1 for every level you have. That's in 3E. Kirin was talking about how they updated it for 3.5, which does state "your BAB becomes equal to your character level". -Hyp.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 11:03 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf But in that case, you have to agree that if I have a Strength of 14 (X) and cast Divine Power, I gain a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength (the variable of D. Power). If I take fifty points of Strength damage (the value of X changes to -36) then the Enhancement bonus changes to +54 (the variable of D. Power changes). Otherwise the bonus is no longer "sufficient to raise my Strength to 18". ... if you assume that the bonus is not static. That's in 3E. Kirin was talking about how they updated it for 3.5, which does state "your BAB becomes equal to your character level". -Hyp. But in my explaination I stated: Every time your Strength score changes (through spells or magic items or removal of curses) AND it changes the value of X (strength is less than 18), from True to False or from False to True, it asks is the effect (bonus STR from D. Power) should occur. After all the value of X (higher or lower than 18) is the condition of getting the bonus in the first place. If your strength score changes but the value of X does not change (is strength less then 18) from True to False or from False to True, then it does not change the condition. So it doesn't have to ask if the effect should occur or change. As for Kirin, my mistake. Sorry.
anglar 10-24-03, 11:06 PM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives Then if I say my elf can kill on sight, he can? Because it's not specifically stated in the rules that he can't.:rolleyes: We are talking about the mechanical rules to a spell, not free speech. If you Elf is a bad enough boy, yes he can. That's why there's a combat system. Free Speech is the First Amendment. The Ninth Amendment says that any rights not specifically restricted by law are assumed to be held by the people. Bitnine - that would take an exceptionally Epic spell. If you could cast it, then I'm quite sure you could take over the world. Thank you, drive through. Does it say in the 3ed version that if your STR becomes higher than 18 after casting the spell the effects of the spell for the purposes of increasing STR lessen until either the original caster's STR is reached or 18, whichever comes first?
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 11:16 PM	Originally posted by anglar If you Elf is a bad enough boy, yes he can. That's why there's a combat system. Free Speech is the First Amendment. The Ninth Amendment says that any rights not specifically restricted by law are assumed to be held by the people. Bitnine - that would take an exceptionally Epic spell. If you could cast it, then I'm quite sure you could take over the world. Thank you, drive through. Does it say in the 3ed version that if your STR becomes higher than 18 after casting the spell the effects of the spell for the purposes of increasing STR lessen until either the original caster's STR is reached or 18, whichever comes first? So in your campaign my elf could kill someone just by looking at them? At first level? Man, you got bigger problems than 3.0 D. Power.;) What it does say is it raises your strength to 18 ONLY if NECESSARY. If your strength is raised beyond 18 through any other means, it is no longer needed or NECESSARY to have the strength effect of D. Power to occur to have a Strength of 18. Therefore, it no longer applies.
Hypersmurf 10-24-03, 11:33 PM	If your strength score changes but the value of X does not change (is strength less then 18) from True to False or from False to True, then it does not change the condition. So it doesn't have to ask if the effect should occur or change. So if I cast Divine Power, then Righteous Might, then take 50 points of Strength damage... then Divine Power gives me a +50 Enhancement bonus? (Since with Righteous Might, my Strength is 18, and X changes when I take the damage...) But if I don't cast Righteous Might, it doesn't? -Hyp.
anglar 10-24-03, 11:44 PM	Yes, Hobbit. I took care of it by giving the ability to everything in the game and also making everything in the game immune to the effects of anyone elses. Problem solved. It raises your STR, if necessary, at the time of the casting. The increase is an enhancement bonus. If you raise you STR in any other way, the enhancement bonus isn't going to change. What you are saying is that the bonus is variable during the duration of the spell. IMO, it isn't. That why it's called a loophole. It's an exploitable usage of something that garners great effect than the original intent. BOO-FRICKETY-HOO. One of the original intents of heroine was a cough supressant. People found other viable uses for it and exploited those uses.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 11:46 PM	If you cast D. power and it raises your STR to 18, then cast R. Might, it changes the STR score which is the condition upon which you get your STR bonus from D. Power (is STR less than 18) It changes from X = True (is your STR less than 18) to X = False (is your STR less than 18) and in which case your D. Power STR bonus no longer applies because your STR is greater than 18.
Frodo Lives 10-24-03, 11:54 PM	Originally posted by anglar It raises your STR, if necessary, at the time of the casting. The increase is an enhancement bonus. If you raise you STR in any other way, the enhancement bonus isn't going to change. What you are saying is that the bonus is variable during the duration of the spell. IMO, it isn't. That why it's called a loophole. It's an exploitable usage of something that garners great effect than the original intent. BOO-FRICKETY-HOO. One of the original intents of heroine was a cough supressant. People found other viable uses for it and exploited those uses. Why is it automatically static? The speed you can travel with the Fly spell isn't, it can change during the spells duration. Why can't the STR bonus be a variable, sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't according to your current STR. Because you said so? That's how you close a loophole. So it doesn't garner a greater effect than the original intent. If you think rules lawyering to try to overpower something is a good thing, you can keep your loophole. Like I said, I've shown the logic behind why I think it isn't a static bonus. Other spells aren't. Please show me the logic behind why you think it isn't, for some other reason than I like to take advantage of loopholes.
anglar 10-25-03, 12:10 AM	Because it is stated that bonuses of different natures do stack. The bonus from DP is enhancement. If a bonus other than enhancement is added after DP is cast, then by published D&D standards they should stack. If I were to accept your POV, would you also concede that any STR damage taken during the duration is ultimately negated because DP would instantly increase its enhancement bonus to make the resultant STR 18 again? Of course after the spell's duration ended, the PC could be done for.
Frodo Lives 10-25-03, 12:36 AM	The stacking nature of bonuses is not in dispute. What I am saying is that the condition of receiving the STR bonus is not static. It is a bonus based on a variable, just like the movement speed in the spell Fly. If the condition changes, the effect can change. All I’m saying is that if you raise your strength to more than 18 the requirement to receive the D. Power strength is not met. And the effects are not static, if you no longer have the requirements (STR less than 18) you no long receive the benefits. As for damage, if you take STR damage to reduce your STR stat below 18 it still hasn’t changed to condition (is your STR less than 18 = Yes) the effect doesn’t change. Only when the condition changes does the effect change. If the answer to the condition was Yes before the damage and Yes after the damage, the effect (STR bonus) isn’t altered. If you have a STR score higher than 18 and didn’t receive the bonus, but take damage to lower your STR score below 18 the condition changes. No before damage, Yes after damage, so you are entitled to the bonus to bring you back to 18. Basically only if the condition (STR below 18) changes from a YES to a NO or from a NO to a Yes does the changes the effect (amount of STR bonus) occur.
Hypersmurf 10-25-03, 01:06 AM	If you have a STR score higher than 18 and didn’t receive the bonus, but take damage to lower your STR score below 18 the condition changes. No before damage, Yes after damage, so you are entitled to the bonus to bring you back to 18. Basically only if the condition (STR below 18) changes from a YES to a NO or from a NO to a Yes does the changes the effect (amount of STR bonus) occur. Which means that - according to your "Does the condition flip" reading - someone with 19 Strength and Divine Power who takes 10 points of Strength damage has a Strength of 18 (since Divine Power takes up the slack when the condition flips), but someone who takes two 5-point hits in the same round ends up with a Str of 13 (since Divine Power resets its bonus to +4 when they get hit the first time, but doesn't when they get hit with the second attack). Which: a/ isn't supported by the rules - there's nothing to suggest the whole only-update-on-flip routine in the spell description, b/ isn't internally consistent - someone who takes 10 points of Str damage should have the same Strength as someone who takes 5 points of Strength damage twice, and c/ isn't consistent with the general 3E philosophy that multiple small damages are less effective than one big hit - compare Damage Reduction or Energy Resistance. In this case, two small hits are more effective than one big one. Or, to sum up: Yecch. -Hyp.
Frodo Lives 10-25-03, 01:12 AM	OK I’ll try to explain this using as few words as possible to avoid confusion. Not my strong suit I know. The effect of the bonus only changes when the condition changes (is your STR less than 18). If your STR is 24 you don’t meet the conditions to receive the bonus If your STR goes from 24 to 20 you still don’t change the condition (your STR is more than 18) If your STR goes from 20 to 16 you receive the bonus to move your STR to 18. Because the condition has changed, your STR has gone from over 18 to below 18 Now if your STR is 14 you meet the conditions to receive the bonus If your STR goes from 18 (from D. Power) to 22 (from R. Might) the condition did change (your STR becomes more than 18) If your STR goes from 18 (from D. Power) to 16 from STR damage the condition (is your STR less than 18) didn’t change. Your STR was below 18 when you recieved the bonus, and it still is, so the bonus doesn't change. Basically if the condition (Is your STR score less than 18) changes to a different answer from when the bonus was last changed then the effect (amount of STR bonus) occurs.
Frodo Lives 10-25-03, 01:31 AM	quote: If you have a STR score higher than 18 and didn’t receive the bonus, but take damage to lower your STR score below 18 the condition changes. No before damage, Yes after damage, so you are entitled to the bonus to bring you back to 18. Basically only if the condition (STR below 18) changes from a YES to a NO or from a NO to a Yes does the changes the effect (amount of STR bonus) occur. Which means that - according to your "Does the condition flip" reading - someone with 19 Strength and Divine Power who takes 10 points of Strength damage has a Strength of 18 (since Divine Power takes up the slack when the condition flips), but someone who takes two 5-point hits in the same round ends up with a Str of 13 (since Divine Power resets its bonus to +4 when they get hit the first time, but doesn't when they get hit with the second attack). Which: a/ isn't supported by the rules - there's nothing to suggest the whole only-update-on-flip routine in the spell description, b/ isn't internally consistent - someone who takes 10 points of Str damage should have the same Strength as someone who takes 5 points of Strength damage twice, and c/ isn't consistent with the general 3E philosophy that multiple small damages are less effective than one big hit - compare Damage Reduction or Energy Resistance. In this case, two small hits are more effective than one big one. Or, to sum up: Yecch. A) It is supported by the rules, if you change your armor during the duration of the fly spell your flying speed changes no matter how many times you get in and out of your platemail. I really haven't reseached any other spells but there may be more. B) What, someone that takes one hit then gets cured (bonus takes affect) is just as damaged as someone to takes one hit, gets cured (bonus takes affect) then gets hit again? Lets use HPs for example, if Joe has 19 hps and takes 10 damage, then gets cured for 8 (the bonus). How many HPs does Joe have? 18! If Fred has 19 hps and takes 5 damage, then gets cured for 4 (the bonus), then gets hit again for an additional 5 hps. How many HPs does Fred have? 13! Seems consistent to me. We are just talking about STR damage instead of HP damage. And the bonus taking effect vs. a cure spell. C) Two small hits are more effective than a big one if the person getting hit gets cured after the first hit but not the second one. (i.e. the bonus takes effect after the first hit)
Hypersmurf 10-25-03, 01:43 AM	A) It is supported by the rules, if you change your armor during the duration of the fly spell your flying speed changes no matter how many times you get in and out of your platemail. That's not a good analogy, though. I'm willing to accept that "The spell provides a bonus sufficient to raise Str to 18, even if Str changes" is a possible reading of the spell. I don't agree with it, but it's possible. But "The spell provides a bonus sufficient to raise Str to 18, and it changes, but only if the Str exclusive of the bonus from Divine Power changes from below-18 to above 18 or from above-18 to below-18" is adding just a few too many words to the spell "for clarification". There's nothing to suggest it's a state machine. Either the spell provides a static bonus, or an dynamic bonus. If it's an dynamic bonus, then it updates when Strength changes, not when Strength changes in such a way that it crosses the magic 18 threshold in one direction or the other. Under the dynamic model, someone with a 10 Str receives a +8 enhancement bonus. If they cast Righteous Might and their Str (exclusive of Divine Power) goes up to 14, the bonus updates to +4. If they then take 2 points of Strength damage, the bonus updates to +6. No matter what happens to the Strength score, Divine Power updates to keep the total score at least 18. No state machine. Just a minimum floor on the Strength score. Under the static model, Divine Power would provide a +8 enhancement bonus that lasted one round/level. If they cast Righteous Might, their Strength goes up to 22. If they take two points of Str damagem their Str drops to 20. That's the one I use in 3E. I can see the dynamic model as a possible reading. The state machine is not supported by the rules. -Hyp.
anglar 10-25-03, 01:43 AM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives If your STR goes from 20 to 16 you receive the bonus to move your STR to 18. Because the condition has changed, your STR has gone from over 18 to below 18 Joe Cleric has a STR of 19 and casts DP on himself before battling some shadows. During the battle he is hit for 7 points of STR damage. The STR portion of DP now kicks in and returns his STR to 18? Is that what you're saying?
Frodo Lives 10-25-03, 07:21 AM	Originally posted by anglar Joe Cleric has a STR of 19 and casts DP on himself before battling some shadows. During the battle he is hit for 7 points of STR damage. The STR portion of DP now kicks in and returns his STR to 18? Is that what you're saying? Yes, because he has not recieved that bonus previously because he did not meet the condition before (STR less than 18). Now he does, because of STR damage, and so the bonus can now apply. He has yet to recieve it, now he is eligible for it, so he should get it. If his STR was raised to 18 then lowered due to STR damage, he does not get the bonus AGAIN, as he has already recieved the bonus. If the cleric has not recieved the STR bonus he is entitled to it if during the duration of the spell his STR is lowered to less than 18.
Zherog 10-25-03, 09:08 AM	Originally posted by Frodo Lives Kirin: It grants a BAB of a fighter of your total level, not +1 for every level you have. It's not a huge difference, but at epic levels when a fighters BAB doesn't always go up every level it does provide a cap, not a very restricting one I agree. Frodo, Kirin is referring to the 3.5 version of the spell. It adds a fixed bonus to strength (+6) making this entire discussion moot. But it does indeed grant a BAB equal to your character level.