Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 10-10-04, 10:27 PM	Because of a curse my intelligence for my wizard was reduced to 16. I currently am level 15 and can cast level 8th levels spells. Can I use memorize 6th-level spells in place of my 7th and 8th level spell slots with my reduced intelligence?
Harmor 10-10-04, 10:29 PM	Or can I memorize the 7th and 8th level spell but make a spell level check (just like when you try to cast a scroll that is too high level for you)?
Wilds 10-10-04, 10:36 PM	i think that you can memorize lev 6 spells in teh 7 and 8 slots
kSquared 10-10-04, 10:39 PM	edit: I'm wrong! See below posts for correct answers. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level.You effectively lose access to any spell slots that you cannot prepare at that spell level. In other words, a Xth-level wizard with an Intelligence score of (10 + K) can't cast spells above Kth level. Can I use memorize 6th-level spells in place of my 7th and 8th level spell slots with my reduced intelligence?The wording on this question is a little confusing. You can still memorize 6th-level spells and cast them as normal. You can't use spell slots to which you were denied access, or use lower-level spell slots to prepare a higher-level spell. (The converse is true, however; you can use a higher-level spell slot to prepare a lower-level spell slot.) So you couldn't use a 6th-level spell slot to prepare, say, summon monster VII. This is just common sense. Otherwise you'd see a lot of 1st-level mages hurling meteor swarms! Or can I memorize the 7th and 8th level spell but make a spell level check (just like when you try to cast a scroll that is too high level for you)?No. You can't prepare into those slots at all because you don't have access to them.
meabolex 10-10-04, 11:13 PM	You effectively lose access to any spell slots that you cannot prepare. In other words, a Xth-level wizard with an Intelligence score of (10 + K) has no available spell slots above Kth level. No. From the Arcane Magic Overview section of the PH: Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. So, your 15th level wizard would have 2 7th level slots and 1 8th level slot; it's just only 6th level (or lower) spells can be prepared in those slots, not 7th or 8th level spells.
Pentar 10-10-04, 11:52 PM	You effectively lose access to any spell slots that you cannot prepare. In other words, a Xth-level wizard with an Intelligence score of (10 + K) has no available spell slots above Kth level. Actually I don't think that's true. You have access to those -slots- but not to that level of spells. So technically, this Wizard in question could use up his 7th level slot by Empowering some 5th level spells. Or his 8th level slots by Empowering 6th level spells (etc.). I don't believe you lose the slots, just the ability to cast that level of spell.
sparkster4242 10-10-04, 11:55 PM	he could also stick metamagiced spells in those slots - as long as the level of the spell is still 6 or lower. An Empowered 6th-level spell would fit quite nicely in that 8th-level slot, even with only a 16 INT.
kSquared 10-11-04, 12:00 AM	Sorry, my brain wasn't working. I meant spell levels, not spell slots. Oops. I edited the post to reflect that I'm a huge dumbass and promise to never post again after coming back from a three-hour tennis match. :)
meabolex 10-11-04, 01:53 AM	he could also stick metamagiced spells in those slots - as long as the level of the spell is still 6 or lower. An Empowered 6th-level spell would fit quite nicely in that 8th-level slot, even with only a 16 INT. Well, an Empowered 6th-level spell goes into an 8th level spell slot. But, if you don't have the mental score needed, you can't prepare a spell that normally fills an 8th level spell slot. In the given case, only a spell that could go into a 6th level spell slot can go into the 8th level spell slots. So an Empowered 6th level spell, in this case, can't go into an 8th level spell slot because it normally must.
smrtgmp 10-11-04, 02:05 AM	Well, an Empowered 6th-level spell goes into an 8th level spell slot. But, if you don't have the mental score needed, you can't prepare a spell that normally fills an 8th level spell slot. In the given case, only a spell that could go into a 6th level spell slot can go into the 8th level spell slots. So an Empowered 6th level spell, in this case, can't go into an 8th level spell slot because it normally must. The sage ruled you can use a metamagic spell to take up a higher slot than you could normally cast. For example, if you had a 16 int you could still memorize an empowered chain lightning. Personally, I think its a load of crap and I wouldnt allow it, but Skip feel differently.
meabolex 10-11-04, 02:17 AM	The sage ruled you can use a metamagic spell to take up a higher slot than you could normally cast. For example, if you had a 16 int you could still memorize an empowered chain lightning. Personally, I think its a load of crap and I wouldnt allow it, but Skip feel differently. I stand corrected. . . but you're right, it is a load of crap and makes no sense. (:
Iku Rex 10-11-04, 09:06 AM	The sage ruled you can use a metamagic spell to take up a higher slot than you could normally cast. For example, if you had a 16 int you could still memorize an empowered chain lightning. Personally, I think its a load of crap and I wouldnt allow it, but Skip feel differently.It's not a matter of what Skip "feels". Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell,... -- PH page 88 To prepare a spell the [character] must have a [relevant ability score] of at least 10 + the spell’s level. -- Magic chapter Then add the part meabolex quoted above: A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. -- Magic chapter The Player's Handbook is perfectly clear.
Ludliffes 10-11-04, 10:35 AM	I do agree... rules are clear in this case. You CAN use an 8-level slot to empower a chain lightning spell, even if you have only 16 INT. Please also note that is spell level, and not spell slot that matters in concentration checks to avoid wasting a spell when the caster is distracted. So it is not any more difficult to cast an empowered fireball than a normal fireball. Add to this that you can counterspell a metamagic-enhanced spell with a normal one and you get the picture: in near all respect metamagic doesn't alter what a spell is. It changes only the effect. So, why metamagic (usually) requires a higher spell slot? the real answer is "game balancing", but we can rationalize that a spell slot is related to the "overall power" of a magic effect. The more powerful the effect, the higher the spell slot is required.
Rerednaw 10-11-04, 10:38 AM	It's not a matter of what Skip "feels". Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell,... -- PH page 88 To prepare a spell the [character] must have a [relevant ability score] of at least 10 + the spell’s level. -- Magic chapter Then add the part meabolex quoted above: A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. -- Magic chapter The Player's Handbook is perfectly clear. I agree, it is consistent with the other factors - the saving throw would still be based upon the level of the spell, [i.e. 6th, not 8th and so forth. I also have a question based upon the original post...at 15th level you or your party should have access to numerous methods of breaking curses. Unless this is some sort of plot device. If that is the case, I hope your DM did the same to everyone else's key ability. Cheers.
Harmor 10-12-04, 08:29 AM	I also have a question based upon the original post...at 15th level you or your party should have access to numerous methods of breaking curses.Yeah well our cleric multi-classed and this is a Greater Curse. Thanks for all the info guys. Really appreciate it.
Rerednaw 10-12-04, 09:10 AM	Yeah well our cleric multi-classed and this is a Greater Curse. Thanks for all the info guys. Really appreciate it. OT I'm sorry where is greater curse? I cannot locate it in the SRD? Is this a Forgotten Realms spell? Just wondering. Cheers.
meabolex 10-12-04, 10:14 AM	The Player's Handbook is perfectly clear. Hmmm. So a more powerful spell can be cast by someone who normally wouldn't be able to cast a spell of that level because of the lower ability score. So in a way, the feat allows the ability to cast effectively higher level spells -- but not really. What fills a 7th level spell slot is not necessarily a 7th level spell. . . but if you have a 7th level spell slot, regardless of whether you can prepare it or not with 7th level spells, you can use it if the spell being placed in it has an effective level of a spell you can cast. That's interesting. . . I guess you learn something new all the time (: It also means that mental ability scores for most casters are too overblown in importance. For instance, as long as you can cast 3rd level spells, you can Empower, Maximize, and Quicken spells to fill your higher spell slots. You won't get many bonus spells, but you won't have to waste a lot of resources (stat boosts, items, feats) on boosting your mental ability scores. I smell a new character concept. . . (:
Huan 10-12-04, 10:23 AM	OT I'm sorry where is greater curse? I cannot locate it in the SRD? Is this a Forgotten Realms spell? Just wondering. Cheers. You can find it in Book of Vile Darkness (Brd 6/Wiz 8/Sor 8/Clr 7)
Sancus 10-12-04, 12:34 PM	It also means that mental ability scores for most casters are too overblown in importance. How so? Relying on metamagic'd spells to fill your higher level slots will leave you very weak indeed. Getting the requisite ability score is trivial, it's not like ability score boosting items are expensive, they're very cheap. Metamagic'd spells generally suck, and you can really only do that for offensive spells anyway, you lose access to all the higher level utility spells, debuffs, buffs, etc, etc...
meabolex 10-12-04, 12:55 PM	How so? Relying on metamagic'd spells to fill your higher level slots will leave you very weak indeed. Getting the requisite ability score is trivial, it's not like ability score boosting items are expensive, they're very cheap. Well. . . using this system, I can easily have a mage with 13 Int/Cha for the entire game. All I have to do is take some metamagic feats. That means I can drop as many stat points as I want into Con/Dex/whatever. The stat boosting items, if you play according to the DMG guidelines for character wealth and magic items are readily available, are actually a significant drain on financial resources when you can first afford them. It would be better to spend the money on more useful things. Metamagic'd spells generally suck, and you can really only do that for offensive spells anyway, you lose access to all the higher level utility spells, debuffs, buffs, etc, etc... Generally isn't always. Offensive spells, while admittedly narrow in scope, can define a character. Saying metamagic feats suck doesn't really say anything about effectiveness. . . if I can cast 2 offensive spells a round almost all the time, I'm doing pretty good in combat -- where a significant portion of the game takes place. It's not a hugely powerful idea. . . just an interesting one.
gbnogkfs 10-12-04, 09:48 PM	I'm with Skip and the majority of players... BUT, as someone once had me note: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. thus ruquiring the high abilities. There are really some holes in the rules here and there... :cool:
smrtgmp 10-12-04, 10:01 PM	The Player's Handbook is perfectly clear.Perfectly clear? Hardly. Given that "spell level" and "spell slot" are used interchangeably throughout the core books, I wouldnt call it perfectly clear. If it was, there would be no questions on the matter. And yet this question pops up at least once a month. Perfectly clear indeed. Regardless of official rulings, I would not allow an empowered 6th level spell to be prepared or cast by an individual without (at least) an 18 in its prime casting stat.
gbnogkfs 10-12-04, 11:05 PM	Perfectly clear? Hardly. Given that "spell level" and "spell slot" are used interchangeably throughout the core books, I wouldnt call it perfectly clear. If it was, there would be no questions on the matter. :cool: one thing that we can say is, however, that you have the high level slots available to fill with lower level spells (can we, indeed? :confused: )
wdarkk 10-12-04, 11:10 PM	Yeah well our cleric multi-classed and this is a Greater Curse. Thanks for all the info guys. Really appreciate it. I thought it reduced a score to 1?
smrtgmp 10-13-04, 02:28 AM	:cool: one thing that we can say is, however, that you have the high level slots available to fill with lower level spells Yes, this I agree with.
Iku Rex 10-13-04, 03:07 PM	There are really some holes in the rules here and there... :cool:Point. "Perfectly clear" probably isn't the right term. :) I'll also add: A spellcaster can use multiple metamagic feats on a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative.-- PH page 88. Sigh. (Wouldn't it be nice if WotC got some competent and well-informed game designers together to clear up all those poorly written rules? They could call the result "DnD Revised" or something like that... I bet it would sell well.)