3.5 Adding spells to spellbook after being resurrected [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Adding spells to spellbook after being resurrected [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Harmor
03-05-04, 12:25 PM 1. You are level 5 and just leveled to level 6 (you place 2 spells into your spellbook).

2. You die and are lowered back to level 5 after being resurrected.

3. You level to level 6...

A. The question is, do you add 2 more spells to your spellbook when you level to 6?

B. Do you loose the 2 spells writen into your spellbook when you loose a level when resurrected?

C. DM choice?
Seeker95
03-05-04, 12:53 PM A. Yes. The benefit of gaining a level is associated with levelling up. It has nothing to do with what else might have happened to you.

B. Spell gains specifically assume that in the course of adventuring (guild memberships, studying, research, etc.), you have come across two new spells. They don't disappear if you die.

C. No.
Krelios
03-05-04, 12:56 PM A. Yes. The benefit of gaining a level is associated with levelling up. It has nothing to do with what else might have happened to you.

B. Spell gains specifically assume that in the course of adventuring (guild memberships, studying, research, etc.), you have come across two new spells. They don't disappear if you die.

C. No.Wrong again (this was discussed on another thread). You don't regain something you didn't lose. You cannot say that the spells are a benefit from the level in order to gain them and then say they're not in order to keep from losing them. Dying does NOT give you free treasure (which is what it would do under Seeker's interpretation).
Seeker95
03-05-04, 01:58 PM Krelios, you sound very confident in this. Unfortunately, you are also overconfident. Whether it was discussed in another thread or not has nothing to do with the answers Harmor's questions. (There are still folks who think that if your Constitution changes, your hit points don't -- and will "discuss this in another thread" any chance they get. They're still wrong.)

Find anything in the rules to indicate that a caster would lose the spells from his spellbook when he dies. There is nothing in the rules that says the writing magically disappears from his spell book.

When you gain a level, you gain the benefits associated with gaining that level. If this causes you to gain something twice (because it could not be taken away as a result of losing the level) then so be it. Nothing in the core rules indicates that you cannot get two of something if you meet the requirements to have to of something.

Harmor, you do not lose the spells from your spellbook when you die. When you level up, you get two spells to add to your spellbook.
Wizard
03-05-04, 02:06 PM Seeker is correct. His interpretation makes sense in both realms, in-game and out-game.

1. It's balanced(out-game). Will anyone without spontaneous casting become unbalanced with 2 extra spells known? Especially considering that they're adventuring at a level down?

2. It makes sense(in-game). What, the spellbook's just gonna have a few pages go blank when the wizard dies? And the wizard's just completely unable to research spells until he's reached the level he was at when killed?

Finally, his interpretation of the rules is correct. So by both spirits of the law, AND the letter, Seeker's correct.
Krelios
03-05-04, 02:37 PM That interpretation goes against the spirit of the rules. You gain something as a benefit (specifically the 100gp per level per spell) that you would have had to spend to learn those spells had you not died. There is NOTHING saying that you CAN gain multiple spells for going through a level multiple times.

Let's say you're playing a Ranger 1/Sorcerer 1. If you die, your familiar is still around, does that mean that when you gain your level back as a Sorcerer you now get to have two? Why not keep dying until you have an army of familiars? Your logic is flawed...

Nothing in the core rules indicates that you cannot get two of something if you meet the requirements to have to of something. Doing something because the rules do not EXPLICITLY prevent it is a bad way to go. The rules don't account for every possible scenario, because they can't. It doesn't say anywhere in the book that I can't fly and cast meteor swarm at 1st level. It DOES say that I CAN do it later. Which would you choose?

Whether it was discussed in another thread or not has nothing to do with the answers Harmor's questions. (There are still folks who think that if your Constitution changes, your hit points don't -- and will "discuss this in another thread" any chance they get. They're still wrong.) And there is evidence to directly support that you DO in fact gain HP as your Con changes. If you had any evidence to support your theory, I could respect it.

One last bit of reasoning. If you allow the wizard to gain something that no one else does (in the form of free treasure when he dies) then if he continues to die and get raised (gaining more spells each time he levels again) he will be vastly over the cap given to guide PC Wealth by Level in the DMG.
cwslyclgh
03-05-04, 02:56 PM spells are not free treasure.... no class abilities should be considered free treasure.

I agree with Seeker and Wizard on this matter.... and dissagree with the assessment that it is against the spirit of the rules.

that wizard who keeps dying and getting raised may end up with a heck of a lot of low to mid level spells, but he will not beable to cast any more per day, and he will not have a much delayed access to the higher level spells which are so much better.
Wizard
03-05-04, 02:57 PM Um...OK. You can play the Ranger 1/Sorc 1 with an army of familiars. I think I'll try and stay alive and have an army of levels, thank you.

I'd also point out that in pure monetary terms, it's a bad way to go. The point at which it might be profitable in pure gp is dying at 6th level, when the 600 gp equivalent you gain from the extra spells outweighs the 500 gp cost of raise dead.

Congratulations. You've just traded 5000 xp for 100 gp.

Extending the example, dying at 18th level gets you 1800 gp vs. 500 gp. Wahoo! 1300 gp! For...17000 xp.

Last I heard, 1 xp was about equvalent to 5 gp, or at least that's what the magic item rules suggest. I don't think I'd trade 50 xp for 1 gp (the 6th level example) or 13.1 xp for 1 gp(the 18th level example).

Originally posted by Krelios:
It doesn't say anywhere in the book that I can't fly and cast meteor swarm at 1st level.

Incidentally, it does.
from the SRD:
Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.
UZI
03-05-04, 04:38 PM If you gain an ability point by going from CL7 to CL8, then die back to CL7, do you:

A) lose that point

B) keep it, but not gain when you cross the CL7 to CL8 threshold again

or

C) keep it, but do not gain at the CL7 to CL8 threshold

I believe A, and this is important to me, as one of my players has experienced this recently.

Now as to the spellbook, the wizard's already penalized enough by dying and losing a level. There's no good reason he should have to wait extra time to learn new spells he should get automatically.

For instance, let's say the wizard was about to level-up (50XP away), gets killed, and is back to the middle of the previous level XP-wise. Now he'd have to wait for another level and a half worth of XP before he gets new spells? I think not.
SpellMaster
03-05-04, 05:20 PM While the rules do not directly support the following...

Seeker said the following:

B. Spell gains specifically assume that in the course of adventuring (guild memberships, studying, research, etc.), you have come across two new spells. They don't disappear if you die.

If you die, you do not lose the learned spells, as they are in your spellbook, and there is no reason they should disappear. However, the level long research to freely learn two new spells at level up will not happen if you get raised and lose a level. You will have only one half the normal time till you level up.

Example: I am at 3000 XP, putting me at level 3. I add two spells to my book to represent the 2000 XP worth of, well, experience that I gained that level.
The next day, I die. Crap. Well, I get raised, putting me at 2000 XP (one half the way to the next level).
Within a week, my XP total is 3000 again, putting me once again at level 3. But, this time, I've had only half the level of experience, and have only been able to master one new spell.

So, in short, if you get raised then level up again, you should only get one spell (or one half if you somehow get more than one).

That's just my opinion of course.
Full level = 2 spells.
Half-level = 1 spell.
Seeker95
03-05-04, 05:26 PM Krelios, you're digging a hole faster than we can fill it back in. You're gonna get buried.

Krelios wrote:
Let's say you're playing a Ranger 1/Sorcerer 1. If you die, your familiar is still around, does that mean that when you gain your level back as a Sorcerer you now get to have two? Why not keep dying until you have an army of familiars?The core rules say:
A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time. But nice try.Krelios wrote:
It doesn't say anywhere in the book that I can't fly and cast meteor swarm at 1st level.Yes it does. The core rules state what level of spells a 1st level character can cast. Neither of those spells is available to a 1st level spell. But nice try.Krelios wrote:
Doing something because the rules do not EXPLICITLY prevent it is a bad way to go.So the next time my player says that his character is going to the bathroom, I better inform him that he can't. The core rules don't say that he can. But nice try.Krelios wrote:
If you allow the wizard to gain something that no one else does (in the form of free treasure when he dies) then if he continues to die and get raised (gaining more spells each time he levels again) he will be vastly over the cap given to guide PC Wealth by Level in the DMG.1. It looks like you count spells in a spellbook against a wizards character wealth, eh? I'll bet there are a lot of wizards on the boards who will stay far away from your campaigns.
2. If you count the spells that a wizard gets at each level as treasure, how much of it do you make him split with the characters who don't get any treasure when they level up?
3. A wizard that keeps dying has far more inequity problems to worry about than extra spells. He is one level behind the party for each time he dies. They get more powerful, he gets richer (except for the costs associated with getting raised or resurrected) and has a whopping two more spells of the same level. Again, nice try.

Not bad overall. Keep digging.
Nom
03-05-04, 07:46 PM Semantics, but it does say "at each new wizard level". Since you already have passed through level 6, and got the spells for it, it's not exactly "new".

The technically correct thing to do is to lose the spells, since you lose any "special class abilities" (as well as everything else) when you lose the level. Since this breaks versimillitude, it's better to leave them there and count them as the two bonus spells when you restore the level.
bitnine
03-05-04, 07:56 PM I'm going to have to go with Seeker on this one.
Shadowfax7
03-05-04, 11:01 PM I agree with Seeker's technical interpretation about NOT losing the spells gained from advancing a level when losing it.

But, I am throwing my lot in with Krelios on the spirit of the rules.

I don't believe the examples given by Krelios were chosen very well, however we are talking about "the spirit of the rules". This is not a technical issue. As such we should not be looking for a technical explanation within the rules, BUT the correct "feel" that the interpretation brings to the game.

I feel tha it would be wrong if the PC gained a level benefit from gaining a level more than once due to having died, being raised and losing a level. This is a penalty for being raised from the dead, it should not bring a benefit.

Not that it is overpowered to gain an add'l 2 known spells. . .
Wizard
03-05-04, 11:08 PM What? The intent (read: spirit) of the rules is to emulate reality (at least D&D reality) as far as possible without unbalancing the game or making it too complicated to play. Frankly, I think SpellMaster's idea is the best "reality emulator" of any that have been suggested. It's certainly none too complicated, and it's already been shown not to be unbalancing.
TaisharMalkier
03-06-04, 01:17 AM Zug Zug.

I think according to the rules as written you get 2 additional spells if you die, get raised, and level again. Also, I don't think it's unbalancing.

BTW:

"I'd also point out that in pure monetary terms, it's a bad way to go. The point at which it might be profitable in pure gp is dying at 6th level, when the 600 gp equivalent you gain from the extra spells outweighs the 500 gp cost of raise dead. "

In 3.5, it's a straight 5,000 gold for a Raise Dead. I house rule it so all Raise Deads/Res/True Res etc cost (Original / 20) * Level but by core rules its 5,000.

Cheers
lanilifar
03-06-04, 02:38 AM Find anything in the rules to indicate that a caster would lose the spells from his spellbook when he dies. There is nothing in the rules that says the writing magically disappears from his spell book.
Well, a barbarian who loses a level could forget how to read (if they had just spent skill points on learning to read), which doesn't make a lot of sense, but is technically supported by the rules.

A Bard can suddenly forget the songs they sing to inspire competence, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but is technically supported by the rules.

A divine caster can suddenly forget a whole bunch of spells if they lose a level. Spells they studied to learn.
Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically.

While it doesn't make sense to erase the spellbook, it could easily make sense to require the wizard to take time to relearn the 2 free spells and since they were spells gained in a special magical way (for free for some reason), it is also not a stretch to make thsoe same 2 spells take longer to relearn (for free) than a spell acquired some other way.

Back to your original question.
The 2 free spells are a special class ability of wizards.
From the SRD under level loss:
The character�s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level.
emphasis mine
OTOH, it certainly isn't unbalancing to rule otherwise.
Wizard
03-06-04, 05:05 AM :blush: Sorry about the 500\5000 thing----that's what I get for staying off the boards a while. However, it only supports the argument.

Now, admittedly, it does seem a bit strange that a barb can forget how to read. However, you could reasonably explain it away----the lost level provided that extra bit of focus, perhaps, or maybe the post-res memory is spotty.

The bard doesn't forget the songs at all---he just can't put the oomph into them that he once could.

A divine caster doesn't forget jack. He's just too low in power to be able to prepare or cast the spells.

The two extra spells aren't in some "special magical way"----the PHB says that they're a result of the wizard's ongoing study and research. I suppose that technically "magical research" qualifies as "magical," but that's a trivial case.
lanilifar
03-06-04, 05:40 AM Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell�s level.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

Every other spell, gained through any other way costs 100 gp/page just for the materials of writing the spell into the book (seperate from any research cost you may incur). The 2 free spells must be added to the spellbook in some "special magical way", with "magical free ink and quill".
Wizard
03-06-04, 05:46 AM You neglected the line right after that:

from the PHB, p. 179:
She simply adds these to her spellbook as part of her ongoing research.
Shadowfax7
03-06-04, 11:36 AM Originally posted by Wizard
What? The intent (read: spirit) of the rules is to emulate reality (at least D&D reality) as far as possible without unbalancing the game or making it too complicated to play.

Right . . . I don't believe that WoTC's intent (spirit) of the rules is that a Wizard should gain the benefit of an add'l 2 spells known from gaining a level more than once due to having died, being raised and losing a level.
Heron_Marked_Blade
03-06-04, 11:59 AM Logically, the spells are a result of the time a wizard spent over the course of a level researching and developing new spells. When he dies, he doesn't lose that time he spent researching. He still has those spells in his spellbook (i.e. he still spent the time researching them). They DON'T disappear (the TIME he spent researching them doesn't disappear). He may not be able to cast them, but he doesn't lose them.

As he attempts to regain the experience he lost, he'll still spend time researching spells. When he levels, he should gain new spells (due to his new time spent researching).
Wizard
03-06-04, 12:40 PM Originally posted by Shadowfax7
Right . . . I don't believe that WoTC's intent (spirit) of the rules is that a Wizard should gain the benefit of an add'l 2 spells known from gaining a level more than once due to having died, being raised and losing a level.

And that's just SO overpowered...Why, an 18th-level wizard who kept dying and getting ressurected would make a profit of -3200 gp EVERY TIME! How broken is that?!
lanilifar
03-06-04, 02:09 PM You neglected the line right after that:

Does he use the same kind of materials to write those 2 spells, as he does any other spell?
Why are the materials free sometimes?

PS. I guess I am just griping over the silliness of spells costing money to put into a spellbook and then having it be free to put spells into a spellbook. It makes no sense.
Shadowfax7
03-06-04, 03:27 PM Originally posted by Wizard
And that's just SO overpowered...Why, an 18th-level wizard who kept dying and getting ressurected would make a profit of -3200 gp EVERY TIME! How broken is that?!

From my original post:

Not that it is overpowered to gain an add'l 2 known spells . . .

;) relax it's just an opinon.
Krelios
03-07-04, 06:18 PM And that's just SO overpowered...Why, an 18th-level wizard who kept dying and getting ressurected would make a profit of -3200 gp EVERY TIME! How broken is that?! You're still getting something for nothing.

No matter what other people decide to do, I'll not resort to personal attacks to assuage my bruised ego here. People are free to do whatever they want to do. If you want to give your wizards more spells than they would normally have at that level as a benefit from dying because you feel bad for them--it's your campaign.

I'm just glad to see I'm not alone in realizing that it's not supported by the rules. Have fun with this thread, I've made my point.
Wizard
03-07-04, 06:23 PM Whatever...it's not worth us getting all bent out of shape about anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 03-05-04, 12:25 PM	1. You are level 5 and just leveled to level 6 (you place 2 spells into your spellbook). 2. You die and are lowered back to level 5 after being resurrected. 3. You level to level 6... A. The question is, do you add 2 more spells to your spellbook when you level to 6? B. Do you loose the 2 spells writen into your spellbook when you loose a level when resurrected? C. DM choice?
Seeker95 03-05-04, 12:53 PM	A. Yes. The benefit of gaining a level is associated with levelling up. It has nothing to do with what else might have happened to you. B. Spell gains specifically assume that in the course of adventuring (guild memberships, studying, research, etc.), you have come across two new spells. They don't disappear if you die. C. No.
Krelios 03-05-04, 12:56 PM	A. Yes. The benefit of gaining a level is associated with levelling up. It has nothing to do with what else might have happened to you. B. Spell gains specifically assume that in the course of adventuring (guild memberships, studying, research, etc.), you have come across two new spells. They don't disappear if you die. C. No.Wrong again (this was discussed on another thread). You don't regain something you didn't lose. You cannot say that the spells are a benefit from the level in order to gain them and then say they're not in order to keep from losing them. Dying does NOT give you free treasure (which is what it would do under Seeker's interpretation).
Seeker95 03-05-04, 01:58 PM	Krelios, you sound very confident in this. Unfortunately, you are also overconfident. Whether it was discussed in another thread or not has nothing to do with the answers Harmor's questions. (There are still folks who think that if your Constitution changes, your hit points don't -- and will "discuss this in another thread" any chance they get. They're still wrong.) Find anything in the rules to indicate that a caster would lose the spells from his spellbook when he dies. There is nothing in the rules that says the writing magically disappears from his spell book. When you gain a level, you gain the benefits associated with gaining that level. If this causes you to gain something twice (because it could not be taken away as a result of losing the level) then so be it. Nothing in the core rules indicates that you cannot get two of something if you meet the requirements to have to of something. Harmor, you do not lose the spells from your spellbook when you die. When you level up, you get two spells to add to your spellbook.
Wizard 03-05-04, 02:06 PM	Seeker is correct. His interpretation makes sense in both realms, in-game and out-game. 1. It's balanced(out-game). Will anyone without spontaneous casting become unbalanced with 2 extra spells known? Especially considering that they're adventuring at a level down? 2. It makes sense(in-game). What, the spellbook's just gonna have a few pages go blank when the wizard dies? And the wizard's just completely unable to research spells until he's reached the level he was at when killed? Finally, his interpretation of the rules is correct. So by both spirits of the law, AND the letter, Seeker's correct.
Krelios 03-05-04, 02:37 PM	That interpretation goes against the spirit of the rules. You gain something as a benefit (specifically the 100gp per level per spell) that you would have had to spend to learn those spells had you not died. There is NOTHING saying that you CAN gain multiple spells for going through a level multiple times. Let's say you're playing a Ranger 1/Sorcerer 1. If you die, your familiar is still around, does that mean that when you gain your level back as a Sorcerer you now get to have two? Why not keep dying until you have an army of familiars? Your logic is flawed... Nothing in the core rules indicates that you cannot get two of something if you meet the requirements to have to of something. Doing something because the rules do not EXPLICITLY prevent it is a bad way to go. The rules don't account for every possible scenario, because they can't. It doesn't say anywhere in the book that I can't fly and cast meteor swarm at 1st level. It DOES say that I CAN do it later. Which would you choose? Whether it was discussed in another thread or not has nothing to do with the answers Harmor's questions. (There are still folks who think that if your Constitution changes, your hit points don't -- and will "discuss this in another thread" any chance they get. They're still wrong.) And there is evidence to directly support that you DO in fact gain HP as your Con changes. If you had any evidence to support your theory, I could respect it. One last bit of reasoning. If you allow the wizard to gain something that no one else does (in the form of free treasure when he dies) then if he continues to die and get raised (gaining more spells each time he levels again) he will be vastly over the cap given to guide PC Wealth by Level in the DMG.
cwslyclgh 03-05-04, 02:56 PM	spells are not free treasure.... no class abilities should be considered free treasure. I agree with Seeker and Wizard on this matter.... and dissagree with the assessment that it is against the spirit of the rules. that wizard who keeps dying and getting raised may end up with a heck of a lot of low to mid level spells, but he will not beable to cast any more per day, and he will not have a much delayed access to the higher level spells which are so much better.
Wizard 03-05-04, 02:57 PM	Um...OK. You can play the Ranger 1/Sorc 1 with an army of familiars. I think I'll try and stay alive and have an army of levels, thank you. I'd also point out that in pure monetary terms, it's a bad way to go. The point at which it might be profitable in pure gp is dying at 6th level, when the 600 gp equivalent you gain from the extra spells outweighs the 500 gp cost of raise dead. Congratulations. You've just traded 5000 xp for 100 gp. Extending the example, dying at 18th level gets you 1800 gp vs. 500 gp. Wahoo! 1300 gp! For...17000 xp. Last I heard, 1 xp was about equvalent to 5 gp, or at least that's what the magic item rules suggest. I don't think I'd trade 50 xp for 1 gp (the 6th level example) or 13.1 xp for 1 gp(the 18th level example). Originally posted by Krelios: It doesn't say anywhere in the book that I can't fly and cast meteor swarm at 1st level. Incidentally, it does. from the SRD: Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.
UZI 03-05-04, 04:38 PM	If you gain an ability point by going from CL7 to CL8, then die back to CL7, do you: A) lose that point B) keep it, but not gain when you cross the CL7 to CL8 threshold again or C) keep it, but do not gain at the CL7 to CL8 threshold I believe A, and this is important to me, as one of my players has experienced this recently. Now as to the spellbook, the wizard's already penalized enough by dying and losing a level. There's no good reason he should have to wait extra time to learn new spells he should get automatically. For instance, let's say the wizard was about to level-up (50XP away), gets killed, and is back to the middle of the previous level XP-wise. Now he'd have to wait for another level and a half worth of XP before he gets new spells? I think not.
SpellMaster 03-05-04, 05:20 PM	While the rules do not directly support the following... Seeker said the following: B. Spell gains specifically assume that in the course of adventuring (guild memberships, studying, research, etc.), you have come across two new spells. They don't disappear if you die. If you die, you do not lose the learned spells, as they are in your spellbook, and there is no reason they should disappear. However, the level long research to freely learn two new spells at level up will not happen if you get raised and lose a level. You will have only one half the normal time till you level up. Example: I am at 3000 XP, putting me at level 3. I add two spells to my book to represent the 2000 XP worth of, well, experience that I gained that level. The next day, I die. Crap. Well, I get raised, putting me at 2000 XP (one half the way to the next level). Within a week, my XP total is 3000 again, putting me once again at level 3. But, this time, I've had only half the level of experience, and have only been able to master one new spell. So, in short, if you get raised then level up again, you should only get one spell (or one half if you somehow get more than one). That's just my opinion of course. Full level = 2 spells. Half-level = 1 spell.
Seeker95 03-05-04, 05:26 PM	Krelios, you're digging a hole faster than we can fill it back in. You're gonna get buried. Krelios wrote: Let's say you're playing a Ranger 1/Sorcerer 1. If you die, your familiar is still around, does that mean that when you gain your level back as a Sorcerer you now get to have two? Why not keep dying until you have an army of familiars?The core rules say: A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time. But nice try.Krelios wrote: It doesn't say anywhere in the book that I can't fly and cast meteor swarm at 1st level.Yes it does. The core rules state what level of spells a 1st level character can cast. Neither of those spells is available to a 1st level spell. But nice try.Krelios wrote: Doing something because the rules do not EXPLICITLY prevent it is a bad way to go.So the next time my player says that his character is going to the bathroom, I better inform him that he can't. The core rules don't say that he can. But nice try.Krelios wrote: If you allow the wizard to gain something that no one else does (in the form of free treasure when he dies) then if he continues to die and get raised (gaining more spells each time he levels again) he will be vastly over the cap given to guide PC Wealth by Level in the DMG.1. It looks like you count spells in a spellbook against a wizards character wealth, eh? I'll bet there are a lot of wizards on the boards who will stay far away from your campaigns. 2. If you count the spells that a wizard gets at each level as treasure, how much of it do you make him split with the characters who don't get any treasure when they level up? 3. A wizard that keeps dying has far more inequity problems to worry about than extra spells. He is one level behind the party for each time he dies. They get more powerful, he gets richer (except for the costs associated with getting raised or resurrected) and has a whopping two more spells of the same level. Again, nice try. Not bad overall. Keep digging.
Nom 03-05-04, 07:46 PM	Semantics, but it does say "at each new wizard level". Since you already have passed through level 6, and got the spells for it, it's not exactly "new". The technically correct thing to do is to lose the spells, since you lose any "special class abilities" (as well as everything else) when you lose the level. Since this breaks versimillitude, it's better to leave them there and count them as the two bonus spells when you restore the level.
bitnine 03-05-04, 07:56 PM	I'm going to have to go with Seeker on this one.
Shadowfax7 03-05-04, 11:01 PM	I agree with Seeker's technical interpretation about NOT losing the spells gained from advancing a level when losing it. But, I am throwing my lot in with Krelios on the spirit of the rules. I don't believe the examples given by Krelios were chosen very well, however we are talking about "the spirit of the rules". This is not a technical issue. As such we should not be looking for a technical explanation within the rules, BUT the correct "feel" that the interpretation brings to the game. I feel tha it would be wrong if the PC gained a level benefit from gaining a level more than once due to having died, being raised and losing a level. This is a penalty for being raised from the dead, it should not bring a benefit. Not that it is overpowered to gain an add'l 2 known spells. . .
Wizard 03-05-04, 11:08 PM	What? The intent (read: spirit) of the rules is to emulate reality (at least D&D reality) as far as possible without unbalancing the game or making it too complicated to play. Frankly, I think SpellMaster's idea is the best "reality emulator" of any that have been suggested. It's certainly none too complicated, and it's already been shown not to be unbalancing.
TaisharMalkier 03-06-04, 01:17 AM	Zug Zug. I think according to the rules as written you get 2 additional spells if you die, get raised, and level again. Also, I don't think it's unbalancing. BTW: "I'd also point out that in pure monetary terms, it's a bad way to go. The point at which it might be profitable in pure gp is dying at 6th level, when the 600 gp equivalent you gain from the extra spells outweighs the 500 gp cost of raise dead. " In 3.5, it's a straight 5,000 gold for a Raise Dead. I house rule it so all Raise Deads/Res/True Res etc cost (Original / 20) * Level but by core rules its 5,000. Cheers
lanilifar 03-06-04, 02:38 AM	Find anything in the rules to indicate that a caster would lose the spells from his spellbook when he dies. There is nothing in the rules that says the writing magically disappears from his spell book. Well, a barbarian who loses a level could forget how to read (if they had just spent skill points on learning to read), which doesn't make a lot of sense, but is technically supported by the rules. A Bard can suddenly forget the songs they sing to inspire competence, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but is technically supported by the rules. A divine caster can suddenly forget a whole bunch of spells if they lose a level. Spells they studied to learn. Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically. While it doesn't make sense to erase the spellbook, it could easily make sense to require the wizard to take time to relearn the 2 free spells and since they were spells gained in a special magical way (for free for some reason), it is also not a stretch to make thsoe same 2 spells take longer to relearn (for free) than a spell acquired some other way. Back to your original question. The 2 free spells are a special class ability of wizards. From the SRD under level loss: The character�s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. emphasis mine OTOH, it certainly isn't unbalancing to rule otherwise.
Wizard 03-06-04, 05:05 AM	:blush: Sorry about the 500\5000 thing----that's what I get for staying off the boards a while. However, it only supports the argument. Now, admittedly, it does seem a bit strange that a barb can forget how to read. However, you could reasonably explain it away----the lost level provided that extra bit of focus, perhaps, or maybe the post-res memory is spotty. The bard doesn't forget the songs at all---he just can't put the oomph into them that he once could. A divine caster doesn't forget jack. He's just too low in power to be able to prepare or cast the spells. The two extra spells aren't in some "special magical way"----the PHB says that they're a result of the wizard's ongoing study and research. I suppose that technically "magical research" qualifies as "magical," but that's a trivial case.
lanilifar 03-06-04, 05:40 AM	Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook. Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell�s level. Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages. Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. Every other spell, gained through any other way costs 100 gp/page just for the materials of writing the spell into the book (seperate from any research cost you may incur). The 2 free spells must be added to the spellbook in some "special magical way", with "magical free ink and quill".
Wizard 03-06-04, 05:46 AM	You neglected the line right after that: from the PHB, p. 179: She simply adds these to her spellbook as part of her ongoing research.
Shadowfax7 03-06-04, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by Wizard What? The intent (read: spirit) of the rules is to emulate reality (at least D&D reality) as far as possible without unbalancing the game or making it too complicated to play. Right . . . I don't believe that WoTC's intent (spirit) of the rules is that a Wizard should gain the benefit of an add'l 2 spells known from gaining a level more than once due to having died, being raised and losing a level.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-06-04, 11:59 AM	Logically, the spells are a result of the time a wizard spent over the course of a level researching and developing new spells. When he dies, he doesn't lose that time he spent researching. He still has those spells in his spellbook (i.e. he still spent the time researching them). They DON'T disappear (the TIME he spent researching them doesn't disappear). He may not be able to cast them, but he doesn't lose them. As he attempts to regain the experience he lost, he'll still spend time researching spells. When he levels, he should gain new spells (due to his new time spent researching).
Wizard 03-06-04, 12:40 PM	Originally posted by Shadowfax7 Right . . . I don't believe that WoTC's intent (spirit) of the rules is that a Wizard should gain the benefit of an add'l 2 spells known from gaining a level more than once due to having died, being raised and losing a level. And that's just SO overpowered...Why, an 18th-level wizard who kept dying and getting ressurected would make a profit of -3200 gp EVERY TIME! How broken is that?!
lanilifar 03-06-04, 02:09 PM	You neglected the line right after that: Does he use the same kind of materials to write those 2 spells, as he does any other spell? Why are the materials free sometimes? PS. I guess I am just griping over the silliness of spells costing money to put into a spellbook and then having it be free to put spells into a spellbook. It makes no sense.
Shadowfax7 03-06-04, 03:27 PM	Originally posted by Wizard And that's just SO overpowered...Why, an 18th-level wizard who kept dying and getting ressurected would make a profit of -3200 gp EVERY TIME! How broken is that?! From my original post: Not that it is overpowered to gain an add'l 2 known spells . . . ;) relax it's just an opinon.
Krelios 03-07-04, 06:18 PM	And that's just SO overpowered...Why, an 18th-level wizard who kept dying and getting ressurected would make a profit of -3200 gp EVERY TIME! How broken is that?! You're still getting something for nothing. No matter what other people decide to do, I'll not resort to personal attacks to assuage my bruised ego here. People are free to do whatever they want to do. If you want to give your wizards more spells than they would normally have at that level as a benefit from dying because you feel bad for them--it's your campaign. I'm just glad to see I'm not alone in realizing that it's not supported by the rules. Have fun with this thread, I've made my point.
Wizard 03-07-04, 06:23 PM	Whatever...it's not worth us getting all bent out of shape about anyway.