3.5 Haste & TWF *official* ruling? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Haste & TWF *official* ruling? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gruuletheaxe
06-18-04, 04:08 AM Ok, I searched the boards and still haven't found a satisfactory answer to the question of whether Haste gives you 2 extra attacks when dual wielding? The general consensus on the boards seems to be no but has anyone seen an *official* ruling on this from the WotC folks?
Naeron
06-18-04, 06:28 AM I'd question why you are looking for clarification. The rules are very explicit. I am taking this from the SRD.

TWF Feat: "You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon."

And to do so you also need to take the full-attack action.

Haste: "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."

So you can make one extra attack ang may choose to do so with any weapon you are holding. Not with each, with any.

That's a perfectly clear definition. TWF gives you an extra attack with the off-hand weapon and Haste gives you an extra attack with either weapon, your choice.
Walter Russ
06-18-04, 09:33 AM Naeron's right: One extra attack only. Even if you were a Hecatoncheires (Epic Level Handbook, 100 attacks), Haste would only grant you one extra attack, and only when making a full attack action.
gruuletheaxe
06-18-04, 01:57 PM I don't think it IS clear. The wording is ambiguous and open to interpretation IMO. That's why I'm looking for clarification. I can't believe there's no Sage Advice, FAQ, etc. on this.

Here's my thinking:
Wouldn't a two-handed fighter benefit more from an additional attack at the full BAB than a TWF at their reduced bonus? Isn't that the reason there's an additional TWF feat every time your BAB goes up enough to give you an extra attack? Aren't these feats a balancing factor to help keep TWFs in step damage-wise with their 2-handed brethren? It just seems by extension that Haste might have this same balancing factor built in by giving the TWF two added attacks with the reduced BAB from TWF. Everyone's always saying how THF trumps TWF in almost every situation. With only one additional attack at a reduced bonus, it looks like Haste is just another place where TWF gets the shaft. Maybe every character should just use a Great Sword and be done with it.
yonman
06-18-04, 02:01 PM Your question was what the official ruling is, not whether it was better to have THF or TWF.

So I guess you just answered your original question.
Sancus
06-18-04, 02:21 PM The official ruling is that Haste only grants one attack, duh, that's not unclear at all.

What you're saying is 'whine, TWF is not good enough, and if Haste granted two attacks it would be better, so will the Sage please alter the rule to make it this way?'.

Did it ever occur that not all fighting styles are intended to be "equal"? ;) TWF is for particular builds, most often those builds that strongly depend on bonus damage dice, like sneak attack -- and TWF is better for those builds than THF.

The answer is, no, of course not, you can't pick up TWF on any fighter build and expect it to be as good as THF -- nor can you do vice versa with any rogue build... it depends.
gruuletheaxe
06-18-04, 02:21 PM Originally posted by yonman
Your question was what the official ruling is, not whether it was better to have THF or TWF.
I'm not arguing the merits of TWF vs. THF - that's been done to death on the boards. I'm simply saying that Haste might have a built-in balancing feature (intended by the designers) that mimics the balancing effect of the TWF feat track. Simple.
So I guess you just answered your original question.
No, my original question remains unanswered. I don't see anyone pointing me to an official ruling, just giving their interpretation of the text in the PHB. I'm looking for designer intent via Sage Advice, FAQ, Skip Williams thread post, etc. If it doesn't exist, fine. If it does, show me the way.
Krelios
06-18-04, 02:24 PM No, my original question remains unanswered. I don't see anyone pointing me to an official ruling, just giving their interpretation of the text in the PHB. I'm looking for designer intent via Sage Advice, FAQ, Skip Williams thread post, etc. If it doesn't exist, fine. If it does, show me the way.Umm... There's not going to be any additional rules that reiterate the text, when the text says you get "one" additional attack. There's no clearer way to say that. One = One. One NEVER equals Two. Why is there any doubt? Last time I checked the PHB was official.
Sancus
06-18-04, 02:25 PM If the completely unambiguous text isn't good enough for you, you can send email to sageadvice@paizo.com

I doubt this question has been answered before by the Sage or in the FAQ because I've never seen anyone try to claim that the wording in Haste is ambiguous in any way (which it isn't :P).
gruuletheaxe
06-18-04, 02:27 PM Originally posted by Sancus
What you're saying is 'whine, TWF is not good enough, and if Haste granted two attacks it would be better, so will the Sage please alter the rule to make it this way?'.

See my previous 'no answer' post above.
gruuletheaxe
06-18-04, 02:28 PM Originally posted by Krelios
Umm... There's not going to be any additional rules that reiterate the text, when the text says you get "one" additional attack. There's no clearer way to say that. One = One. One NEVER equals Two. Why is there any doubt? It's not interpretation, it's called "reading."

"...one extra attack with any weapon..."
Walter Russ
06-18-04, 02:29 PM From the PHB:

"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."

I don't see how this is open to interpretation. ONE extra attack with ANY weapon. Not ONE extra attack with EACH weapon. This has been reiterated in Sage Advice, but you are free to use your own interpetation in your own game (assuming you're the DM, of course!)
Krelios
06-18-04, 02:29 PM Originally posted by gruuletheaxe
"...one extra attack with any weapon..." That's right. You get ONE extra attack, and you may take it with any weapon you choose. Yeah, English!
yonman
06-18-04, 02:46 PM Gruule, how can you possibly not understand the text.

It says ONE extra attack with any weapon...what exactly is the problem here?
Egres
06-18-04, 09:50 PM Originally posted by Krelios
That's right. You get ONE extra attack, and you may take it with any weapon you choose. Yeah, English!
Well,english is not my first language,and sometimes i had some problem translating and understanding the spell's text......
3.5 Haste is not one of them.
IMHO,it's REALLY clear.
And,if this can help,in the Italian Edition is well explained that you can make only ONE extra attack,using different words that cannot be misunderstood.
Zelphi
06-19-04, 09:34 AM Laa Laa Laa - I'm not listenting?

One extra attack...
That's one extra attack

with any weapon you are holding
That's - With any weapon you are holding

Not "for every weapon you are holding"
or "With any weapon you are holding you get one extra attack"

So it's one extra attack - made with any weapon you are holding...

So if you have

+4/-1 main
+4 offhand

You can make one extra attack at your full attack bonus with either the main or off.
DevilKiller
06-19-04, 03:24 PM gruuletheaxe, I think you'rew wrong on this one. I don't always care for extremely literal interpretations of the rules myself. Actually, the quote folks were arguing about kind of bothers me because I think it could be taken too literally.

"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."

Now, if you insist on reading the rules literally I think this might mean that monks, or anybody else, fighting unarmed can't get any extra attacks from Haste. After all, they're not "holding" a weapon. Similarly, animals, wildshaped druids, dragons, or anything else which uses natural weapons wouldn't be able to get extra attacks from Haste. I think that would be silly. I know that there are folks out there who would probably interpret the rule that way though.

On the other hand, if we say that you're "holding" your natural weapons and that you get an extra attack for each weapon you have then a lot of natural weapon users would go comepletely bonkers when hasted. Imagine a hasted squid or charging tiger under those rules...wacky...

Anyhow, I think one extra attack from Haste is a nice bonus. Might not anything more be overkill for a 3rd level spell?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gruuletheaxe 06-18-04, 04:08 AM	Ok, I searched the boards and still haven't found a satisfactory answer to the question of whether Haste gives you 2 extra attacks when dual wielding? The general consensus on the boards seems to be no but has anyone seen an official ruling on this from the WotC folks?
Naeron 06-18-04, 06:28 AM	I'd question why you are looking for clarification. The rules are very explicit. I am taking this from the SRD. TWF Feat: "You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon." And to do so you also need to take the full-attack action. Haste: "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." So you can make one extra attack ang may choose to do so with any weapon you are holding. Not with each, with any. That's a perfectly clear definition. TWF gives you an extra attack with the off-hand weapon and Haste gives you an extra attack with either weapon, your choice.
Walter Russ 06-18-04, 09:33 AM	Naeron's right: One extra attack only. Even if you were a Hecatoncheires (Epic Level Handbook, 100 attacks), Haste would only grant you one extra attack, and only when making a full attack action.
gruuletheaxe 06-18-04, 01:57 PM	I don't think it IS clear. The wording is ambiguous and open to interpretation IMO. That's why I'm looking for clarification. I can't believe there's no Sage Advice, FAQ, etc. on this. Here's my thinking: Wouldn't a two-handed fighter benefit more from an additional attack at the full BAB than a TWF at their reduced bonus? Isn't that the reason there's an additional TWF feat every time your BAB goes up enough to give you an extra attack? Aren't these feats a balancing factor to help keep TWFs in step damage-wise with their 2-handed brethren? It just seems by extension that Haste might have this same balancing factor built in by giving the TWF two added attacks with the reduced BAB from TWF. Everyone's always saying how THF trumps TWF in almost every situation. With only one additional attack at a reduced bonus, it looks like Haste is just another place where TWF gets the shaft. Maybe every character should just use a Great Sword and be done with it.
yonman 06-18-04, 02:01 PM	Your question was what the official ruling is, not whether it was better to have THF or TWF. So I guess you just answered your original question.
Sancus 06-18-04, 02:21 PM	The official ruling is that Haste only grants one attack, duh, that's not unclear at all. What you're saying is 'whine, TWF is not good enough, and if Haste granted two attacks it would be better, so will the Sage please alter the rule to make it this way?'. Did it ever occur that not all fighting styles are intended to be "equal"? ;) TWF is for particular builds, most often those builds that strongly depend on bonus damage dice, like sneak attack -- and TWF is better for those builds than THF. The answer is, no, of course not, you can't pick up TWF on any fighter build and expect it to be as good as THF -- nor can you do vice versa with any rogue build... it depends.
gruuletheaxe 06-18-04, 02:21 PM	Originally posted by yonman Your question was what the official ruling is, not whether it was better to have THF or TWF. I'm not arguing the merits of TWF vs. THF - that's been done to death on the boards. I'm simply saying that Haste might have a built-in balancing feature (intended by the designers) that mimics the balancing effect of the TWF feat track. Simple. So I guess you just answered your original question. No, my original question remains unanswered. I don't see anyone pointing me to an official ruling, just giving their interpretation of the text in the PHB. I'm looking for designer intent via Sage Advice, FAQ, Skip Williams thread post, etc. If it doesn't exist, fine. If it does, show me the way.
Krelios 06-18-04, 02:24 PM	No, my original question remains unanswered. I don't see anyone pointing me to an official ruling, just giving their interpretation of the text in the PHB. I'm looking for designer intent via Sage Advice, FAQ, Skip Williams thread post, etc. If it doesn't exist, fine. If it does, show me the way.Umm... There's not going to be any additional rules that reiterate the text, when the text says you get "one" additional attack. There's no clearer way to say that. One = One. One NEVER equals Two. Why is there any doubt? Last time I checked the PHB was official.
Sancus 06-18-04, 02:25 PM	If the completely unambiguous text isn't good enough for you, you can send email to sageadvice@paizo.com I doubt this question has been answered before by the Sage or in the FAQ because I've never seen anyone try to claim that the wording in Haste is ambiguous in any way (which it isn't :P).
gruuletheaxe 06-18-04, 02:27 PM	Originally posted by Sancus What you're saying is 'whine, TWF is not good enough, and if Haste granted two attacks it would be better, so will the Sage please alter the rule to make it this way?'. See my previous 'no answer' post above.
gruuletheaxe 06-18-04, 02:28 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Umm... There's not going to be any additional rules that reiterate the text, when the text says you get "one" additional attack. There's no clearer way to say that. One = One. One NEVER equals Two. Why is there any doubt? It's not interpretation, it's called "reading." "...one extra attack with any weapon..."
Walter Russ 06-18-04, 02:29 PM	From the PHB: "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." I don't see how this is open to interpretation. ONE extra attack with ANY weapon. Not ONE extra attack with EACH weapon. This has been reiterated in Sage Advice, but you are free to use your own interpetation in your own game (assuming you're the DM, of course!)
Krelios 06-18-04, 02:29 PM	Originally posted by gruuletheaxe "...one extra attack with any weapon..." That's right. You get ONE extra attack, and you may take it with any weapon you choose. Yeah, English!
yonman 06-18-04, 02:46 PM	Gruule, how can you possibly not understand the text. It says ONE extra attack with any weapon...what exactly is the problem here?
Egres 06-18-04, 09:50 PM	Originally posted by Krelios That's right. You get ONE extra attack, and you may take it with any weapon you choose. Yeah, English! Well,english is not my first language,and sometimes i had some problem translating and understanding the spell's text...... 3.5 Haste is not one of them. IMHO,it's REALLY clear. And,if this can help,in the Italian Edition is well explained that you can make only ONE extra attack,using different words that cannot be misunderstood.
Zelphi 06-19-04, 09:34 AM	Laa Laa Laa - I'm not listenting? One extra attack... That's one extra attack with any weapon you are holding That's - With any weapon you are holding Not "for every weapon you are holding" or "With any weapon you are holding you get one extra attack" So it's one extra attack - made with any weapon you are holding... So if you have +4/-1 main +4 offhand You can make one extra attack at your full attack bonus with either the main or off.
DevilKiller 06-19-04, 03:24 PM	gruuletheaxe, I think you'rew wrong on this one. I don't always care for extremely literal interpretations of the rules myself. Actually, the quote folks were arguing about kind of bothers me because I think it could be taken too literally. "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." Now, if you insist on reading the rules literally I think this might mean that monks, or anybody else, fighting unarmed can't get any extra attacks from Haste. After all, they're not "holding" a weapon. Similarly, animals, wildshaped druids, dragons, or anything else which uses natural weapons wouldn't be able to get extra attacks from Haste. I think that would be silly. I know that there are folks out there who would probably interpret the rule that way though. On the other hand, if we say that you're "holding" your natural weapons and that you get an extra attack for each weapon you have then a lot of natural weapon users would go comepletely bonkers when hasted. Imagine a hasted squid or charging tiger under those rules...wacky... Anyhow, I think one extra attack from Haste is a nice bonus. Might not anything more be overkill for a 3rd level spell?