3.5 Haste- Still better than other 3rd level spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Haste- Still better than other 3rd level spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zardnaar
10-26-03, 05:21 PM Its one thing to look at a spell on paper and say thats broken or it sucks and another thing to use it in a game.

My PCs have just got high enough to cast 3rd level spells. For his 2 spells the fighter//wizard (soon to be eldritch knight) took fly and haste.

Several castings of haste later and the party is loving it. It now hastes them all (most of the time) and doesn't overpower the spellcasters who can now blaze away with scorching ray. The only other 3rd level spell that seems to be as good is Summon Natures Ally III-Dire Wolf which gets trip attacks when it bites something. Summon Natures ally 3 also won't scale like haste will either. The Ranger/Archer is loving it since she gets to make full attack actions most of the time anyway.

So is the 3.5 haste still better than most spells of its level?
Luminous Crayon
10-26-03, 06:25 PM I still like it lots. There are a lot of nice spells at third level, though, so there's plenty of competition. I'm a huge fan of Dispel Magic and Major Image, for example, but that's just a personal preference.
Unda Harvum
10-26-03, 07:36 PM I think it's pretty powerful 3rd level spell. My main problem with it is that it seems more like a Cleric spell than Wizard/Sorcerer in it's current incarnation.
RPG
10-26-03, 08:15 PM I think it's a bit screwy compared to the other buff spells (bull's strength, etc).

I would have done it thusly:

Using the 3.5 version of haste, it should affect 1 target, and last 1min/level; It's more powerful than ither buffs, thus 3rd level. Have a mass haste at 6th level. Same effect, same duration, one target per level.

Drop the mass buffs to 5th level.

That just seems to make the most sense to me.

That said, I use it by the book IMC, to minimize confusion.
Evanta
10-27-03, 12:23 AM yupz the mass buffs should be dropped to 5th level.

Haste is still more powerful than most 3rd level spells. Compare it to prayer, for example. There's probably no contest there.
Sir Ferdinand
10-27-03, 12:03 PM Haste is still more powerful than most 3rd level spells. Compare it to prayer, for example. There's probably no contest there.

You're comparing arcane spell to divine spell here, so of course they're different power spells. But I agree that Haste is still very powerful spell, maybe even better than in 3rd edition.
Lord Arkhaven
10-27-03, 02:31 PM My gaming group is mad for Displacement. Pound for pound it is thee 3rd level buff. A 50% miss change on all melee and ranged attacks (unless the monster has True Sight or Blind Sight) means a whole lot of missed attacks from fight to fight.

I think Haste is right where it should be. A +1 on a few things is nice but not crazy and the extra attack is a good addition too, not a broken one. Not every round can be a full attack.
tarkin
10-27-03, 03:09 PM There are now lots of 3rd level spells that are better than haste. It is only an OK buffing spell, suitable for use when you are fighting creatures with Spell Resistance etc. that you do not want to attack directly, after you have cast a Greater Magic Weapon.

But Dispell magic, Lightning Bolt, Fire Ball, Extended Melf's Acid Arrow, Vampiric Touch, and even Slow, are generally better spells than Haste now.

Note, there is one exception to that rule. For multi-class casters, Haste is better, because scaling is less important to it so you lose less.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-27-03, 04:55 PM The Mass part is nice, but its just not worth that much to a non-support mage anymore. Like someone said, it sounds like a cleric spell now. I'd take it as a Bard, but never as a mage.
Then again the other sweet buff at 3rd, fly, got pimp-slapped too, so I guess its on par with 3rd level buffs.
Zardnaar
10-28-03, 01:16 AM I agree with the comment about displacement. Thats one of the better 3rd level spells as well. I chose haste over fireball as the parties wizard is a Fighter/Wizard soon to be eldritch knight. Haste is as useful at level 20 and level 5 - along with displacement and fly, and protection from energy. Thats why I personally rate it better than dispel magic, fireball and lightning bolt which are less than great at higher level (unless metamagiced and then its still iffy).
He Who Shall Not Be Named
10-28-03, 02:45 AM Umm... no.

The main reason haste is not worth getting is the same reason i don't like sorcs... there are too many good 3rd level spells.

Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Displacement
Slow
Fly
Sound Lance
Good Hope? (I think that's what its called... the new stat buff)
Dispel Magic
Major Image

And that's off the top of my head, without the book in front of me.

Besides, taking haste is like taking one of the craft feats... you essentially become a walking party buffer. Buy a rod of lesser empower, a headband of intellect, cast fireball, and show the party what they have to look up to. You aren't a bard; you're a wizard. Start to act like one. :D
Entropicforce
10-28-03, 08:32 AM The thing that one has to remember about haste is that it has an extremely obvious effect (most intelligent creatures should be able to tell that that person over there is moving faster than everyone else) - and it's a massive target for dispel magic from opposing spell users. I'm running a Ravenloft campaign at the moment, and while Haste has been extremely useful, it certainly hasn't proved inherently more useful than any of the sorceress' other third level spells. (Plus the pitchfork and torch mobs in Barovia get rather antsy when they see hasted characters...lol)
Lord Arkhaven
10-28-03, 09:59 AM One thing should be said for Haste though, the movement bonus (+30) is very cool. It gives plate wearing fighters the move they need and can save a party member's life because the cleric can now get to mosts party members if they go down. Because it speeds up flying it allows wizards to get to wear they need to be in order to have line of sight for spells like lightning bolt.

The fights in our group take place on a battle mat. This means that most rooms/caverns are no bigger than a battle mat. Haste allows a character to cover the battlemat very quickly. The spell therefore provides board advantage over non-Hasted people.

Overall it is a solid spell for at least one person in the party to cast. Maybe not the wizard but someone. For a cleric with the Time domain (FR) its perfection.

:D
Arkenian
10-28-03, 04:11 PM Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven
One thing should be said for Haste though, the movement bonus (+30) is very cool. It gives plate wearing fighters the move they need and can save a party member's life because the cleric can now get to mosts party members if they go down.

As a note Haste adds +30 up to a maximum of doubling your speed, so for most plate wearing types, it only adds +20.

Haste is a very powerful spell in 3E, at high levels it was a default spell for one of our wizards -- particularly if she wasn't sure whether it was time to unleash heavy artillery. With the change to saves making it increasingly difficult for anything less than the top spell levels, high level players can consider it an excellent choice.

And, of course, you can combine it with summon monster . . . Whether it's the speed boost, the minor buff to AC and attacks, or the extra attack on a full attack, haste is one of the finest party buffs in the book. Does it feel a bit clericy? Well, perhaps. But wizards need buffs too (in fact, tactically, I rarely want the party cleric wasting time casting buffs when combat begins, if we can avoid it) Certainly Haste has always been in the wizard's domain in the past.

A wizard who doesn't know how to make the best use of the rest of the party is crippling himself. Sometimes (not always, but sometimes) this means buffing them.

Is haste the most powerful 3rd level spell? No, I think not. There are many 3rd level spells I might want to cast at any given time. Deciding whether I should cast Haste as a general purpose buff, fireball as simple damage, or displacement for some hefty defense, or fly to get off the ground are just some of the things I have to consider, and I consider all of those spells, and a few others, excellent spells.

Oh, as to haste being a favorite target for dispelling . . . if I'm at low level (so I don't have half a dozen active spells) if I can spend around increasing my party member's effectiveness briefly, and force my opponent to spend his action dispelling something rather than attacking, I usually consider it a win. (Unless my enemy and I are right after eachother in init, which would be disappointing)

-Arkenian the Golden

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 10-26-03, 05:21 PM	Its one thing to look at a spell on paper and say thats broken or it sucks and another thing to use it in a game. My PCs have just got high enough to cast 3rd level spells. For his 2 spells the fighter//wizard (soon to be eldritch knight) took fly and haste. Several castings of haste later and the party is loving it. It now hastes them all (most of the time) and doesn't overpower the spellcasters who can now blaze away with scorching ray. The only other 3rd level spell that seems to be as good is Summon Natures Ally III-Dire Wolf which gets trip attacks when it bites something. Summon Natures ally 3 also won't scale like haste will either. The Ranger/Archer is loving it since she gets to make full attack actions most of the time anyway. So is the 3.5 haste still better than most spells of its level?
Luminous Crayon 10-26-03, 06:25 PM	I still like it lots. There are a lot of nice spells at third level, though, so there's plenty of competition. I'm a huge fan of Dispel Magic and Major Image, for example, but that's just a personal preference.
Unda Harvum 10-26-03, 07:36 PM	I think it's pretty powerful 3rd level spell. My main problem with it is that it seems more like a Cleric spell than Wizard/Sorcerer in it's current incarnation.
RPG 10-26-03, 08:15 PM	I think it's a bit screwy compared to the other buff spells (bull's strength, etc). I would have done it thusly: Using the 3.5 version of haste, it should affect 1 target, and last 1min/level; It's more powerful than ither buffs, thus 3rd level. Have a mass haste at 6th level. Same effect, same duration, one target per level. Drop the mass buffs to 5th level. That just seems to make the most sense to me. That said, I use it by the book IMC, to minimize confusion.
Evanta 10-27-03, 12:23 AM	yupz the mass buffs should be dropped to 5th level. Haste is still more powerful than most 3rd level spells. Compare it to prayer, for example. There's probably no contest there.
Sir Ferdinand 10-27-03, 12:03 PM	Haste is still more powerful than most 3rd level spells. Compare it to prayer, for example. There's probably no contest there. You're comparing arcane spell to divine spell here, so of course they're different power spells. But I agree that Haste is still very powerful spell, maybe even better than in 3rd edition.
Lord Arkhaven 10-27-03, 02:31 PM	My gaming group is mad for Displacement. Pound for pound it is thee 3rd level buff. A 50% miss change on all melee and ranged attacks (unless the monster has True Sight or Blind Sight) means a whole lot of missed attacks from fight to fight. I think Haste is right where it should be. A +1 on a few things is nice but not crazy and the extra attack is a good addition too, not a broken one. Not every round can be a full attack.
tarkin 10-27-03, 03:09 PM	There are now lots of 3rd level spells that are better than haste. It is only an OK buffing spell, suitable for use when you are fighting creatures with Spell Resistance etc. that you do not want to attack directly, after you have cast a Greater Magic Weapon. But Dispell magic, Lightning Bolt, Fire Ball, Extended Melf's Acid Arrow, Vampiric Touch, and even Slow, are generally better spells than Haste now. Note, there is one exception to that rule. For multi-class casters, Haste is better, because scaling is less important to it so you lose less.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-27-03, 04:55 PM	The Mass part is nice, but its just not worth that much to a non-support mage anymore. Like someone said, it sounds like a cleric spell now. I'd take it as a Bard, but never as a mage. Then again the other sweet buff at 3rd, fly, got pimp-slapped too, so I guess its on par with 3rd level buffs.
Zardnaar 10-28-03, 01:16 AM	I agree with the comment about displacement. Thats one of the better 3rd level spells as well. I chose haste over fireball as the parties wizard is a Fighter/Wizard soon to be eldritch knight. Haste is as useful at level 20 and level 5 - along with displacement and fly, and protection from energy. Thats why I personally rate it better than dispel magic, fireball and lightning bolt which are less than great at higher level (unless metamagiced and then its still iffy).
He Who Shall Not Be Named 10-28-03, 02:45 AM	Umm... no. The main reason haste is not worth getting is the same reason i don't like sorcs... there are too many good 3rd level spells. Fireball Lightning Bolt Displacement Slow Fly Sound Lance Good Hope? (I think that's what its called... the new stat buff) Dispel Magic Major Image And that's off the top of my head, without the book in front of me. Besides, taking haste is like taking one of the craft feats... you essentially become a walking party buffer. Buy a rod of lesser empower, a headband of intellect, cast fireball, and show the party what they have to look up to. You aren't a bard; you're a wizard. Start to act like one. :D
Entropicforce 10-28-03, 08:32 AM	The thing that one has to remember about haste is that it has an extremely obvious effect (most intelligent creatures should be able to tell that that person over there is moving faster than everyone else) - and it's a massive target for dispel magic from opposing spell users. I'm running a Ravenloft campaign at the moment, and while Haste has been extremely useful, it certainly hasn't proved inherently more useful than any of the sorceress' other third level spells. (Plus the pitchfork and torch mobs in Barovia get rather antsy when they see hasted characters...lol)
Lord Arkhaven 10-28-03, 09:59 AM	One thing should be said for Haste though, the movement bonus (+30) is very cool. It gives plate wearing fighters the move they need and can save a party member's life because the cleric can now get to mosts party members if they go down. Because it speeds up flying it allows wizards to get to wear they need to be in order to have line of sight for spells like lightning bolt. The fights in our group take place on a battle mat. This means that most rooms/caverns are no bigger than a battle mat. Haste allows a character to cover the battlemat very quickly. The spell therefore provides board advantage over non-Hasted people. Overall it is a solid spell for at least one person in the party to cast. Maybe not the wizard but someone. For a cleric with the Time domain (FR) its perfection. :D
Arkenian 10-28-03, 04:11 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven One thing should be said for Haste though, the movement bonus (+30) is very cool. It gives plate wearing fighters the move they need and can save a party member's life because the cleric can now get to mosts party members if they go down. As a note Haste adds +30 up to a maximum of doubling your speed, so for most plate wearing types, it only adds +20. Haste is a very powerful spell in 3E, at high levels it was a default spell for one of our wizards -- particularly if she wasn't sure whether it was time to unleash heavy artillery. With the change to saves making it increasingly difficult for anything less than the top spell levels, high level players can consider it an excellent choice. And, of course, you can combine it with summon monster . . . Whether it's the speed boost, the minor buff to AC and attacks, or the extra attack on a full attack, haste is one of the finest party buffs in the book. Does it feel a bit clericy? Well, perhaps. But wizards need buffs too (in fact, tactically, I rarely want the party cleric wasting time casting buffs when combat begins, if we can avoid it) Certainly Haste has always been in the wizard's domain in the past. A wizard who doesn't know how to make the best use of the rest of the party is crippling himself. Sometimes (not always, but sometimes) this means buffing them. Is haste the most powerful 3rd level spell? No, I think not. There are many 3rd level spells I might want to cast at any given time. Deciding whether I should cast Haste as a general purpose buff, fireball as simple damage, or displacement for some hefty defense, or fly to get off the ground are just some of the things I have to consider, and I consider all of those spells, and a few others, excellent spells. Oh, as to haste being a favorite target for dispelling . . . if I'm at low level (so I don't have half a dozen active spells) if I can spend around increasing my party member's effectiveness briefly, and force my opponent to spend his action dispelling something rather than attacking, I usually consider it a win. (Unless my enemy and I are right after eachother in init, which would be disappointing) -Arkenian the Golden