Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 10-06-04, 04:23 PM	Normally its (skill bonus squared) x 100gp for an item that gives you a bonus to a skill, but what would be the cost of a set of Thieves Tools that's +5 to Open Locks and Disable Device? Is it: (5^2)x100gp + (5^2)x100gp = 2,500gp + 2,500gp = 5,000gp + the cost for a set of masterwork tools = 5,000gp + 110gp = 5,110gp Is this correct?
Beamup 10-06-04, 04:35 PM	Well, it would be a slotless item with multiple abilities. So you don't just add them up. 1st ability: full price, 2500 2nd ability: similar ability on a slotless item, so 75%, or 1875. Total so far = 4375. But it's slotless, so multiply by 2 for 8750. Plus the normal masterwork thieves' tools cost of 100 gp, and you get: Final cost = 8850 gp Note that this would actually give a +7 total bonus, +2 circumstance for the masterwork tools and +5 competence from the magic bonus.
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 05:04 PM	OK, how is this slotless? You have to be holding the item for it to be effective. IMO, a slotless item is something that you wear to gain some sort of extended benefit that doesnt take up an item slot. Just because you hold an item in your hand to use it doesnt mean its slotless. Take the rope of climbing for instance. If slotless applied to everything that didnt take up one of the standard body slots, it would be far more expensive. For an item to be slotless, you should be able to use any number of them at once (such as ioun stones). You cant use more than one set of thieves tools at once, because you have to hold them to be effective.
Zherog 10-06-04, 05:20 PM	From the SRD: Body Slot Affinity Headband, helmet Mental improvement, ranged attacks Hat Interaction Phylactery Morale, alignment Eye lenses, goggles Vision Cloak, cape, mantle Transformation, protection Amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, scarab Protection, discernment Robe Multiple effects Shirt Physical improvement Vest, vestment Class ability improvement Bracers Combat Bracelets Allies Gloves Quickness Gauntlets Destructive power Belt Physical improvement Boots Movement So can you tell me which slot the tools would be filling?
tarkin 10-06-04, 05:27 PM	Nope, it is slotless, just like a sword. You do not go around with them in your hands. They should be put away someplace with safely, so it usually takes a move equivelent to get them out normally. (But special belts/items may reduce that time.
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 05:58 PM	And how is a sword slotless? You have to hold it to use it. Can you use an infinite number of swords at once? If not, then how is it slotless? So can you tell me which slot the tools would be filling?and which one of those slots would a rope of climbing fill? Rope of Climbing: <snip> Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, animate rope; Price 3,000 gp;Weight 3 lb. Animate rope is 1st level, so with a CL of 3, the price would be: 1 x 3 x 1800 = 5400. That doesnt take into account the price for it being unslotted (which it clearly must be, since it doesnt take up any of the slots listed above). With the x2 multiplier, it would put it at nearly 11K. Thats a far shot from the 3K listed in the DMG. IMO the slotless modifier would only apply to an item from which you gain a continuous (or nearly so) benefit that does not inhibit you from using a similar item (such as ioun stones). You cant use more than two weapons, since you dont have more than 2 hands (unles, of course, you do have more than 2 hands, but thats not an issue with regular PC races). An amulet that didnt inhibit your ability to use other amulets would clearly be a slotless item. I'm not so sure when it comes to items like the ones proposed above.
RaspK FOG 10-06-04, 06:37 PM	As mentioned in the DMG, any and all prices listed have taken into account the value, usefulness, and practicality of an item, so some don't quite follow the pricing rules to the letter. As for being a slotless item, items are considered to take up slots (neither space not body part, mind you, but ITEM SLOTS) as shown in the item slots part of the chapter. Swords are not mentioned, shields are not mentioned, and we all know you might carry two shields if you like even if the rules don't cover such a case. Unlike with magical suits of armour, shields, and weapons, wondrous items don't need to be of masterwork quality.
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 06:56 PM	As mentioned in the DMG, any and all prices listed have taken into account the value, usefulness, and practicality of an item, so some don't quite follow the pricing rules to the letter.I'm aware of this. As for being a slotless item, items are considered to take up slots (neither space not body part, mind you, but ITEM SLOTS) as shown in the item slots part of the chapter. Swords are not mentioned, shields are not mentioned, and we all know you might carry two shields if you like even if the rules don't cover such a case.so if shields are slotless, then why do they have the same price as armor? I realize that the RAW would demand the above thieves tools be concidered slotless items, I just think its going against the spirit of the rules.
RaspK FOG 10-06-04, 07:17 PM	Because shields effectively take up space; however, some shields are not quite the same: check out Shield of Absorption. Furthermore, any and all items that need not be worn on any body part to be operating in the clearest of senses but must be HELD and WIELDED to operate do not take up an item slot; this represents that such an item's use is entirely circumstantial, just like most characters don't run around with a dozen pairs of of boots for each and every circumstance but usually have a couple only (just in case). Furthermore, items that have no reason whatsoever to be effectively stacking (i.e. items you cannot use more than one of at the same time, like thief's tools) also don't take up slots because you can't wear or use more of them. To those of you who will argue based on including armours on the list, it's because you cannot wear both a robe and a suit of armour at the same time: they both are put over trousers and vestments or shirts, so no two of them at the same time (not to mention D&D has something about robes and armour as a concept, if you catch my drift).
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 08:41 PM	So you think the price of the above thieves tools should be doubled? That is not meant to be sarcastic, BTW. Mearly a question.
Aramek 10-06-04, 08:55 PM	So you think the price of the above thieves tools should be doubled? That is not meant to be sarcastic, BTW. Mearly a question. The great Aramek says "no". I would not make it cost double. Slotless DOES mean a constant effect that doesn't take up a slot, IE Ioun stones. However, the pics are Wonderous items, same as a Haversack of Handiness, ect. The proper price is 4375. Granting the +5 bonus for each, and the +2 bonus for masterwork tools.
RaspK FOG 10-06-04, 09:01 PM	... What ever. My opinion is "Yes". Read Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values, DMG, pg 285, under "Special": No Space Limitation*. * See Magic Items on the Body, pg 214. Basically, an item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double. I think this can be further backed up by the fact that any and all enhancements on a weapon are then multiplied by 2.000 rather than 1.000 that is the default for armour and shields.
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 09:16 PM	I think this can be further backed up by the fact that any and all enhancements on a weapon are then multiplied by 2.000 rather than 1.000 that is the default for armour and shields.The fact that shields are the same price as armor sort of debunks that statement. After all, shields are slotless. Furthermore, weapons are far more powerful than armor in D&D, so it makes sense that they would cost more. A first level fighter who manages to get his hands on a suite of +5 full plate will get the same benefit as a 20th level fighter with the same armor. The same does not hold true for weapons, because weapons become more effective as the wielder gains experience.
RaspK FOG 10-06-04, 09:22 PM	You are right about that; but I hope you got the joke... As for the bonus, I will repeat that wondrous items need not be masterwork.
smrtgmp 10-06-04, 09:29 PM	i missed the joke. mind repeating it?
Loren Pechtel 10-07-04, 12:23 AM	Well, it would be a slotless item with multiple abilities. So you don't just add them up. 1st ability: full price, 2500 2nd ability: similar ability on a slotless item, so 75%, or 1875. Total so far = 4375. But it's slotless, so multiply by 2 for 8750. Plus the normal masterwork thieves' tools cost of 100 gp, and you get: Slotless? The books have a big error--the hands *ARE* slots. When you look at the prices for items you must wield it's obvious they are slotted price, not non-slot price.
RaspK FOG 10-07-04, 05:59 AM	The joke was about referring to armour/shield costs compared to weapon costs... Cynic, I know. As for hands counting as slots, I don't know, you might be confusing the whole point here: you don't wear something other than: Gauntlets or Gloves 2 Rings on your hands; items that take up ITEM SLOTS ON THE BODY are supposed to be worn all the time, so they do have this slight tendency of being clothing apparels, jewelry, things like that... I don't know about you, but I was under the impression that lockpicks, weapons, shields, and the like, are nothing like the above; sure, you "wear" a shield, but not ALL DAY LONG, like a suit of armour: you can ready or stow your shield when the time comes, but do you have the luxury of donning your armour every time you want to wade into battle? ;)
smrtgmp 10-07-04, 06:59 AM	As for hands counting as slots, I don't know, you might be confusing the whole point here: you don't wear something other than: Gauntlets or Gloves 2 Rings on your hands; items that take up ITEM SLOTS ON THE BODY are supposed to be worn all the time, so they do have this slight tendency of being clothing apparels, jewelry, things like that... I don't know about you, but I was under the impression that lockpicks, weapons, shields, and the like, are nothing like the above; sure, you "wear" a shield, but not ALL DAY LONG, like a suit of armour: you can ready or stow your shield when the time comes, but do you have the luxury of donning your armour every time you want to wade into battle? ;)I see what you are saying, and I understand the RAW. I suppose I think of slots more from a pricing angle. If its something you actually have to hold for it to be effective, than I concider it to be slotted, regardless of the RAW. At least, thats how I do in IMC. I dont think it would be fair to charge extra for the above lock picks simply becuase they dont fit into one of the standard "Item slots." Your joke was freaking hilarious, BTW :bored: ;)
Beamup 10-07-04, 09:23 AM	The reason they need to be treated as slotless is so that you can get a discount for making them slotted (i.e. RAW are correct). Ask yourself this: - Is there any disadvantage to this item as compared to an Ioun Stone granting +5/+5 combined with MW thieves' tools? NO. The "but you have to hold them in your hand" argument fails utterly because simply using the skill takes up your hands, so there is NO cost involved in holding this item in your hands. - Is there any advantage to this item as compared to a Ring granting +5/+5 combined with MW thieves' tools? YES. You don't have to take up a Ring slot to use it. When an item is mechanically identical to another item (Ioun Stone of +5/+5) and better than another item (Ring of +5/+5) it must cost the same as the prior and more than the latter. Granting slotted price to such an item is grossly inappropriate. (Not to mention clearly and strictly against the rules.)
Loren Pechtel 10-08-04, 12:37 AM	Granting slotted price to such an item is grossly inappropriate. (Not to mention clearly and strictly against the rules.) Your logic is fine except for the fact that handheld items seem to price as slotted, not non-slot. Just about anything handheld is needed to use it's power anyway so your argument should apply to just about all handheld items.
Beamup 10-08-04, 09:47 AM	Your logic is fine except for the fact that handheld items seem to price as slotted, not non-slot. Just about anything handheld is needed to use it's power anyway so your argument should apply to just about all handheld items. For handheld items that actually use up a hand (e.g. a potion, sword, or wand) slotted price is appropriate. For handheld items that don't actually use up a hand because you were already using it anyway, slotless price is appropriate. I'd be interested to hear of any examples that break this rule - AFAIK everything in the DMG generally does.
Loren Pechtel 10-09-04, 12:39 AM	For handheld items that actually use up a hand (e.g. a potion, sword, or wand) slotted price is appropriate. For handheld items that don't actually use up a hand because you were already using it anyway, slotless price is appropriate. I'd be interested to hear of any examples that break this rule - AFAIK everything in the DMG generally does. I see your point but I'm not thinking of any examples of the latter to obey or break the rule.
jnrhayz 01-06-05, 11:14 AM	For handheld items that don't actually use up a hand because you were already using it anyway, slotless price is appropriate. Maybe I am reading this wrong, but this argument doesn't make sense. It doesn't use your hand because you had to use you hand to use it? So, a sword doesn't use your hand because you had to use you hand to use it? If a weapon had the slotless cost added, wouldn't the formula be different for creating weapons? I think this would not be costed as slotless unless it gave you a bonus to disable device and open lock even if you are using different lock picks. Since you must use these lock picks, it costs as slotted. Of course, if you wanted to make the bonus work even if you weren't using those specific lockpicks, then it would cost at slotless.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-06-05, 12:06 PM	So, a sword doesn't use your hand because you had to use you hand to use it? You've got it wrong (as I read it). You can still use your hand while wearing rings, or wearing gauntlets. Your HAND is not impaired. However, you cannot use your hands for something else while using lockpicks. So lockpicks "take up" the hand slot, in the same way that wielding a weapon "takes up" the hand slot. I would not make lockpicks slotless unless they open the door by themselves while you do something else with your hands. If you make a cloak slotless, you can wear a second cloak. If you make something you have to manipulate with your hands to use slotless, you should be able to use your hands to do something else (wield a weapon, for example) at the same time. That's what "slotless" means. In 3.5 D&D, according to errata, additional abilities in an item cost an extra 50%. So the first +5 skill would cost 2,500gp, and the second and each additional +5 skill bonus would cost 3,750gp. Add up as many as you want (or have money for), and you're in business. The base price of an item that grants a +5 competence bonus to three skills would cost (2,500 + 3,750 + 3,750) 10,000gp. The base price of lockpicks of skill +5 (Open Lock and Disable Device) would be 2,500gp + 3,750gp + 100gp tools = 6,350gp for a total of +7 to Open Lock and Disable Device (+5 competence + 2 masterwork). These lockpicks are considered "slotted" in the same way that any other wondrous item (or item in general) that must be manipulated with your hands to function is considered "slotted."
Someone 01-06-05, 02:05 PM	I have to agree with the "its not unslotted" camp. In order to benefit, you have to equip/ wield the item. If it were unslotted, you would have the +5 competence bonus all the time, regardless of whether or not you were using the tools (they could still be packed away in your belt or some such). Its the difference between "when I use these magical tools, they help me fiddle with things" and "when I use a small twig, these magical tools help me fiddle with things".
Zelin 01-06-05, 09:20 PM	I have to agree with the "its not unslotted" camp. In order to benefit, you have to equip/ wield the item. If it were unslotted, you would have the +5 competence bonus all the time, regardless of whether or not you were using the tools (they could still be packed away in your belt or some such). Its the difference between "when I use these magical tools, they help me fiddle with things" and "when I use a small twig, these magical tools help me fiddle with things". Yeah that's what I was thinking. There'd be a big benefit in having a magical stone safetly stowed in your pack that gave a +5 over having to use a particular set of tools. I mean a simple acid trapped lock and there goes a bunch of money on a failed check...
evangelion1010 01-06-05, 11:03 PM	Even if your DM argues it x2 because of slot issues, put it on a ring. Sure, its not that handy to switch rings, but it would probably take about the same amount of time to get the tools out, then put them away. just as long as the ring in question doesn't require time to re-gain its benefits... If not, then put it on the tools.
Loren Pechtel 01-07-05, 12:44 AM	Even if your DM argues it x2 because of slot issues, put it on a ring. Sure, its not that handy to switch rings, but it would probably take about the same amount of time to get the tools out, then put them away. just as long as the ring in question doesn't require time to re-gain its benefits... If not, then put it on the tools. If you're going to take the hit for slotless, make it truly slotless. Some small magical trinket. Also, if you're going to take the slotless hit, make two separate items. That way if you later find a open locks +6 you can sell your open locks +5 without giving up your disable device+5.
q'afuu 01-07-05, 02:08 AM	and which one of those slots would a rope of climbing fill? A Rope of Climbing doesn't give a magical bonus to your Climb skill (although the knots, if knotted, lower the Climb check DC by 10, that's not a bonus from magic, it's a bonus due to the knots. A non-magical knotted rope would do the same), these +5 Thieves' Tools do. I'm with Beamup on this one. If an item gives a bonus from a magical enhancement and takes up a body slot, it's slotted. If not, it's unslotted and must be priced as such. It leaves the full complement of body slots open for other items to give added bonuses - the whole point of body slots is to limit the number of items that can give you bonuses. If you work around that limitation, you should pay for the privilege.
IceFractal 01-07-05, 04:57 AM	It been claimed that the tools +5 are as good as an ioun stone +5 would be. Well, that's clearly wrong. Why? Because you can lose the tools in a trapped lock, whereas you wouldn't lose the ioun stone. Also, I'd much rather have a magical tattoo (for instance), that let me open locks better than a specific tool that did it, if they were the same cost. Yes, technically it's slotless, but, IMO, slotless pricing should be reserved for items that act "in the background", i.e. you don't have to think about using them, they're always granting you the bonus even when they're just sitting in your pocket. Also, while the "similar effect" discount seems to be intended for staffs, not items in general, I think it might be reasonable to cancel out the "increased price for multiple powers" modifier for similar effects, in which case the tools would cost 5110 gp, or 10,110 gp if you call them slotless.
q'afuu 01-07-05, 10:45 AM	Because you can lose the tools in a trapped lock, whereas you wouldn't lose the ioun stone. :confused: An Ioun stone can be taken from you as well (it can even be destroyed). I don't see that much of a difference.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-07-05, 11:47 AM	Lockpicks are not slotted. Is a Harp of Charming slotted? No. Is a Scabbard of Keen Edges slotted? No. Is a Broom of Flying slotted? No. But neither are they unslotted. Not every magical item has to be slotted or unslotted. Slotted means that it takes up a specific body slot. Period. The list of body slots can be found in the DMG on p. 214. If you want to wear it and gain its benefit continually, but don't want it to take up that body slot, then you must make it unslotted. Are you walking around with a constant +5 bonus to these skills, like you would if you put the skill bonus on an ioun stone? If so, then the item is considered slotless. If you have to hold the item and use it to gain the benefit of the skill bonus, then it isn't "unslotted." It's simply an item, like the harp of charming or the horn of the tritons, that you have to wield to gain the benefit of. Please stop confusing the issue and arguing that lockpicks of skill +5 must be considered slotless.
smrtgmp 01-07-05, 05:32 PM	I'd say Heron summed it up nicely.
chonjurer 01-07-05, 08:09 PM	Unslotted AND slotted: here's the question. Can you use the lockpicks while wearing gloves of Dex? Answer: yes or no. It depends on how you make them. If you make them slotted, then the gloves would NOT function when you use the picks. If you make them unslotted , then the gloves WOULD work when you use the picks. These are TWO DIFFERENT magic items, and both are valid. The price of the unslotted picks is twice that of the slotted ones, but you can't use the magical handware while using them. It's like asking if a Toga is slotted or not. You can make it slotted as a robe IF YOU WANT, or you can make it unslotted IF YOU WANT at the time of creation. And both are valid magic items.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-07-05, 10:12 PM	Answer: yes or no. It depends on how you make them. Once again, the issue is being confused. Lockpicks do not take up a slot. Period. Are you suggesting that your gloves of dexterity don't function while you're playing your Harp of Charming? Because that harp certainly isn't unslotted. But it's not slotted, either. The only reason "hands" is a slot is because you can wear something on your hands while you do something else with them. And if you have a magic item that must be worn on your hands to function, then that item must be either slotted or unslotted to function. Lockpicks (and harps, and lutes, and a multitude of other wondrous items) are NOT worn on your hands, and therefore DON'T take up the hands slot. Unslotted lockpicks of skill +5 function like Ioun stones: you don't have to use them to get their bonus. But your gloves of dexterity +2 will certainly function if you decide to pick locks with normal lockpicks of skill +5: the lockpicks don't take up a body slot.
Alech 01-08-05, 09:28 PM	FWIW I'm with chonjurer on this one. It depends on how they where made. -Alech
Elgonn 01-08-05, 09:53 PM	I'm in the Heron Marked Blade camp. If it takes time and actions to clear my hands of items and pull another out all before i can take advantage of the magic it doesn't to me say "slotless".
MystErikEry 01-08-05, 10:55 PM	I'd say that they should be priced similarly to a Lyre of Building or any other use-activated items that require your hands to use, or whatnot. They're not slotted items as per the list, but they're not slotless, either, for the purposes of pricing, since they only bestow their bonuses while they're being used.
Dalton Onestone 01-09-05, 05:21 AM	Where is it said that unslotted items had to be always on? And just to confuse things -- whatever theory you use on pricing, Escape Vest, which is the closest thing to what we're talking about, has its price miscalculated. It just adds 1600 gp for a +4 on one skill to 3600 for a +6 on another skill, so far as I can discern.
MystErikEry 01-09-05, 05:31 AM	I wouldn't say so. The vest itself costs 3600 gp (for the +6 bonus, making it 6^2 * 100). The lockpicks cost 1600 gp (for the +4 bonus, making it 4^2 * 100). The vest is a slotted item - you wear it for its benefit. The lockpicks are use-activated ones just like Lyre of Building and SO many other magical items that grant special bonuses but don't have a slot, and only require some hands free to actually use the item, so it has no increase in price for being "unslotted". This brings the cost of both together 5200 gp. My question is why they are together in the first place :P They should be two separate items... Since if you're making a vest, why do lockpicks magically appear in the pocket? If there's anything missing, however, it's the price of the lockpicks themselves. I'd say these lockpicks don't grant the +2 circumstance bonus to Open Lock, and in fact instill the -2 penalty to Open Lock checks made without using thieves' tools. :P They just grant a +4 competence bonus to Open Lock when they're used to help.
Krynus Ogrebane 01-09-05, 10:55 AM	Former WOTC employee Sean K. Reynolds explains what WOTC does to calculate magic item prices <HERE> (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/magicitemcreation.htm). (Specifically, about halfway down the page, under "Pricing"). 'Nuff said.
Qalyar 01-09-05, 02:38 PM	By the way ... I would not think that the +5 bonus would stack with the +2 from masterwork. Are these not the same bonus type? If so, they do not stack, except for dodge bonuses to AC and circumstance bonuses from different sources (and clearly, the quality of the tool is a single source). Of course, the item could be constructed with nonstandard bonus type (i.e. +5 luck bonus) and thus grant the masterwork's effect, but that doubles the price, generally speaking.
MystErikEry 01-09-05, 02:53 PM	They would stack. The +2 bonus from being masterwork is a circumstance bonus, so stacks with everything else (except for circumstance bonuses which are from effectively the same source). The +5 bonus is a competence bonus.
bjorntfh 01-09-05, 03:30 PM	Yes, the boni stack. The pricing should be done without the double cost of slotless. If you double the cost of slotless, then the picks should be able to work without you touching them. Put them in a room, they'll float over and pick the locks for you (Note: this would be a good magic item, but would require Mage Hand.)
Krynus Ogrebane 01-10-05, 09:17 AM	If you double the cost of slotless, then the picks should be able to work without you touching them. Put them in a room, they'll float over and pick the locks for you (Note: this would be a good magic item, but would require Mage Hand.) *ding ding ding* Winner! Winner!
bjorntfh 01-10-05, 03:30 PM	So, what's my prize?