Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 07-20-04, 12:36 AM	I was thinking that a pair of swords could be constructed that, when wrapped against each other would allow a bard to use it as a musical instrument. Do swords like this exist? The character is a Bard/Ranger.
Tsuul 07-20-04, 02:51 AM	Not outside of Everquest that I know of.
Sildatorak 07-20-04, 02:58 AM	I'm pretty lenient on bards in my campaign, I'd let you just take ranks in Perform (percussion) or something like that. Alternatively you could take ranks in a non-instrument performance skill like oratory, poetry, singing, etc. Even though it says "bardic music" any perform skill will work.
Seeker95 07-20-04, 11:02 AM	I would not allow it on its own. I would allow you to get creative in ways you might use an instrument as a weapon, but I would not allow you to use a weapon as an instrument.
Harmor 07-20-04, 12:47 PM	Is there a weapon property that you could add, say +1 or something that would allow you to use as an instrument?
Seeker95 07-20-04, 04:20 PM	Originally posted by Harmor Is there a weapon property that you could add, say +1 or something that would allow you to use as an instrument? You're asking for a way for a bard to have his weapon be his instrument. In my campaign, you would be laughed at. (Granted, you are not in my campaign). Any answers we give you at this point, even if they were to suggest that we might allow you to do something as utterly ridiculous as strum your bow like a one-string harp, would require your DM's approval -- not ours. Learn to use your lute like a club. You cannot use your club like a lute.
Pentar 07-20-04, 04:24 PM	Battledrummer's Main Gauche for the WIN!!!!!! Seeker, I don't believe he's asking if he can use two swords to bang together and make noise as if it were music. I think he is actually suggesting that the sword itself be considered an instrument of some sort... Don't ask me HOW (magic)... Of course, having a tambourine with spikes might do it. Or a flute that has a sharpened end... Or drums that can turn into maces...
Seeker95 07-20-04, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by Pentar Of course, having a tambourine with spikes might do it. Or a flute that has a sharpened end... Or drums that can turn into maces... These make sense (to the degree that risking damage to a musical instrument in combat makes sense :D ). I think he is talking about making music with his sword, so that he can use his bardic abilities that require concentration while he is also swinging away at the enemy.
flyingmoose 07-20-04, 04:51 PM	I'm suddenly really tempted to make a bard that plays the saw.
Harmor 07-20-04, 05:05 PM	A singing sword? I don't want to be able to use my singing sword as a weapon while using my bardic abilities, just either or. Example: I want to use a bardic ability that requires a musicial instrument. I clang my singing sword and it vibrates and produces a tone magically. During which time I cannot use the weapon for attacks because its currently making music magically. However, when I stop using the singing sword as an instrument I can use it as a weapon. I was thinking of something like this for a weapon property: Singing: In the hands of a Bard this weapon is treated as an instrument. The weapon will vibrate and clear musical tones, controled by the wielder, will eminate from the weapon. The weapon, while used as an instrument does not threaten. As a free action the wielder declares at the start of their round how they intend to use the weapon. Strong transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/feats/CRAFT_MAGIC_ARMS_AND_ARMOR.html) , animate objects (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/spells/Animate_Objects.html) ; Price +1 bonus. What do you guys think?
The Ferryman 07-20-04, 05:21 PM	For some reason I'd swear that I've seen a sword with a flute in the hilt. I can't remember where it was though, maybe Song and Silence? I'll check my books later and let you know if i can find it.
Seeker95 07-20-04, 07:12 PM	Originally posted by Harmor I don't want to be able to use my singing sword as a weapon while using my bardic abilities, just either or.The cynic in me assumed it was a munchkin effort. I apologize. Either or sounds reasonable, except that even with a singing sword, it strikes me that it is not you playing the sword, but rather the sword is playing. Perhaps the sword (if intelligent) could take levels in bard, but I don't see how it could actually be your instrument. It would be more like a player piano. However, a cudgel could easily have flute-like uses... maybe it is a bass flute / recorder?
smrtgmp 07-20-04, 07:21 PM	In the new War of the Spider Queen series from R.A. Salvatore, there is a sword that has a pummel that can be played like a flute. That could be a mundane solution to your dilema.
Sildatorak 07-20-04, 08:22 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Either or sounds reasonable, except that even with a singing sword, it strikes me that it is not you playing the sword, but rather the sword is playing. Since the bard is in control of the tone and pitch as Harmor described it, then it would just be his ability to make the sword do what he wants through force of will. It seems a little bit strange to me, too. I don't see how being able to play an instrument and fight at the same time is a "munchkin effort." You can use your bardic music while fighting if you do something vocal instead of playing an instrument in the RAW. I personally think that a +1 bonus is too high for it, you should probably just slap a couple of thousand gp on it after the prices from bonuses are figured and call it good.
D.K.R. 07-20-04, 10:03 PM	In Song & Silence there are several weapon/instrument combinations, including bayonets for most instruments, a flute blowgun, a harp that can be used as a bow, and others. They are 'mundane' (non-magical) for the most part, though a few are magical instruments which can act like weapons. They do also present a singing sword there; an intelligent +2 dancing longsword that loves to sing and grants +6 bonus to perform (singing) skill checks by harmonizing with him; it also grants blind fight feat to its wielder, and can detect law itself and has a +14 sense motive check. FInally, it can caste haste on its weilder once/day. It is CN and costs 127,855 GP. The previously mentioned flute-sword is found in Bastion Press' "d20 Arms and Armor" along with many other unique and fairly well balanced weapons and armors.
Harmor 07-20-04, 10:04 PM	Ok how about this: Singing: In the hands of a Bard this weapon is treated as an instrument. The weapon will vibrate and clear musical tones, controled by the wielder, will eminate from the weapon. The weapon, while used as an instrument does not threaten. As a free action the wielder declares at the start of their round how they intend to use the weapon. Strong transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor , animate objects ; Price +2,000gp.
The Ferryman 07-20-04, 10:29 PM	Originally posted by smrtgmp: In the new War of the Spider Queen series from R.A. Salvatore, there is a sword that has a pummel that can be played like a flute. That's probably where I read about it then. I'd make this a mundane weapon. I'd also require that the weapon be made from Adamantine (to offset the fragility of a hollow handle) and a masterwork instrument. And it can be weilded as a sword or played as an instrument, but not both at the same time. so you would have: weapon price + cost of Adamantine + masterwork instrument or: weapon price + 3000 + 100
primemover003 07-20-04, 10:39 PM	You can use the Perform skill to do a Weapons Drill. It's a new use for the skill from Complete Warrior.
D.K.R. 07-20-04, 10:43 PM	Why not go the nonmagical route, and simply make it a variant weapon? I mean, such things have some (obscure, but real) historical precedence as being able to be made. Something to the effect of; Singing Weapon These weapons have specially drilled holes and fluted grooves that produce varying tones when swung through the air. A practiced user can evoke beautiful music from such a weapon, while in the hands of a non-proficient wielder, the weapon will produce cacophonous and grating sounds. A perform skill devoted to singing weaponry is required to create a desired sound, playing music while attacking in the same round imposes a -20 penalty to the check, but is possible in the hands of a skilled wielder. A singing weapon can be made masterwork either as an instrument, as a weapon, or both. If both, then the cost of making the weapon masterwork is doubled (if it is a double weapon, which already has a doubled cost for masterwork, then it becomes tripled). A weapon must be crafted as a singing weapon when it is made; if an existing weapon is converted into a singing weapon, it imposes a -4 penalty to all perform checks and a -2 penalty to all attack rolls. Market Price: 100% of the base cost of the weapon (minimum 1 GP) For example, a longsword costs 15GP, to make a singing longsword would require 30 GP (15 GP + 15GP). If it is to be a masterwork (to attack rolls only, or to perform skill only) singing longsword it would cost 130 GP; if it is to be a masterwork (in all areas) singing longsword, it costs 230 GP. A singing short sword would cost twice the base cost, or 20 GP. Similar to above, a masterwork singing longsword may cost either 120 or 220 GP depending on which aspect(s) are made masterwork. A singing quarterstaff costs 1 GP, as that is the minimum cost for a singing weapon. To make a masterwork (perform skill only) singing quarterstaff requires 101 GP. To make a masterwork (attack rolls only) singing quarterstaff requires 201 GP (as a double weapon). To make it masterwork for both attack rolls and perform skill checks, it costs 301 GP. (As an option to keep things simpler, you could only allow it to be made masterwork in all areas or none; instead of providing the option to pick and choose – it would still cost an additional multiplier to gain, though.)
Ssussunriyh 07-21-04, 12:45 AM	How about a pair of light hammers against a shield, breastplate, or helmet, like playing a Caribbean steel drum? (Has sort of a Dwarven flavor to it though, like a war-gong...)
Luminous Crayon 07-21-04, 12:48 AM	As a musician, this thread makes me cringe in pain. Even wind-players and brass-players with instruments made out of supposedly-sturdy metal know better than to go around hitting things with them, as even day-to-day bumps and scratches degrade the quality of the instrument and the sound it produces. If you're actually swinging an instrument in combat, well, owch.
smrtgmp 07-21-04, 02:37 AM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh How about a pair of light hammers against a shield, breastplate, or helmet, like playing a Caribbean steel drum? (Has sort of a Dwarven flavor to it though, like a war-gong...) lol this gives me a great mental picture of a dwarf charging into battle while playing his head like a drum.
D.K.R. 07-21-04, 02:45 AM	Originally posted by Luminous Crayon As a musician, this thread makes me cringe in pain. Even wind-players and brass-players with instruments made out of supposedly-sturdy metal know better than to go around hitting things with them, as even day-to-day bumps and scratches degrade the quality of the instrument and the sound it produces. If you're actually swinging an instrument in combat, well, owch. I'd never dare to call myself a musician of any sort, except maybe a bad one - but I have played a few instruments and am aware of the care required to keep them sounding decent; and the extra efforts needed to coax them into sounding 'good'. However, I also am aware that this is a fantasy game, and that a) magic can prevent such damage, and b) maintenance is generally an 'assumed' in these games. How often do you see or hear of any player doing anything to maintain their weapons and armor, except flavor such as 'wiping the blood off on the fallen enemy's corpse' - not meant to take care of the weapon but more to disrespect the fallen foe? Yes, taking a normal instrument and using it as an improvised weapon would be silly, and in fact there are rules in a few books about the potential damage and lowered perform skill checks from doing exactly that. However, a weapon designed to have musical qualities, such as the singing weapons I mentioned, or a magical instrument which can be converted into a weapon, or something along those lines in these fantasy games... well; they're meant to be used for bashing. . . . willful suspension of disbelief is the active term here ;)